faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Oct 23, 2017 9:50:34 GMT
Fair enough. But following from that question, what should the person asking the question say if Hamer replies that the interest is theoretical and just an accounting exercise as they don't take any cash out, so the cash wasn't there to spend on players. BTW, if Hamer does reply that I think he will have been told to say it as I've not seen anything yet to suggest that he's smart enough to think up that reply all by himself. The consolidated statement of cash flows in the 2016 accounts indicates the interest was paid out. The interest waived by the previous owners is included in that statement but nothing to show that interest due to MSP Capital or Dwane Sports was waived. As faggotygas posted a few weeks ago the interest could have been taken out and then loaned back. But what is the logic in charging yourself interest and then loaning yourself money to pay that interest ? Rovers are not likely to be paying tax in the foreseeable future and the corporate tax rate in Jersey is 0%. The owners of clubs as big as Brighton and as small as Forest Green put their money in through equity and/or interest free loans so Steve Hamer needs to explain what makes Rovers owners different. If he is not able to then I think it's a fair assumption that interest payments are the reason why Rovers can't seem to compete in the transfer market against clubs which have much lower attendances. Hi Swiss
The corporate tax rate on Jersey is indeed 0%, but BRFC (1883) Ltd and the FC are registered in the UK, so increasing losses in the UK to generate profit in Jersey is exactly my point.
Regarding profit - a large sale of a player could produce a one-off profit, as may a significant cup run or possibly promotion.
I'm not tax management expert though, so I realise that my argument may have holes, and I'm happy to hear them - I'm just putting it forward as one possible non-sinister scenario.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Oct 17, 2017 8:30:40 GMT
The time limit for Nichols to score has now expired. He will never will be the 20 + goalscorer Clarke had hoped he had signed. Is there any evidence that Clarke said this about Nichols?
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Oct 17, 2017 8:29:47 GMT
blueiris, Two reasons for hammering Nicholls 1) He is supposed to be a £300,000 striker compared to a young hopeful 2) Telford's was within 2 minutes of coming on when it is difficult to get with the pace of the game. In truth both should have scored and Oxfords late goal wouldn't have mattered. As regards Bola I think I have made it clear in my referencing to Lee Brown that his crosses were not of the same quality.Good fair points you have made though. 1. Maybe, but he's not being played in that role. Also, what do you think that £300k gets you? Not necessarily the finished article. As I've said before, the only person to have consistently scored over 20 goals a season at this level in recent years was Billy Sharp, and he would have cost a lot more than £300k. Like it or not, with current transfer fees, £300k for a striker only buys you potential.
How about you judge players according to the role they are actually playing, rather than on their past?
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Oct 13, 2017 12:38:02 GMT
To be a bit pedantic, developing the stadium/training ground would not incur losses, as the money you spend becomes an asset in the accounts - unless the project doesn't go ahead.
The problem is cash.
The problem is cash. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Hani has the money and Wael hasn't some up with a sound business case for spending it in Rovers. The UWE didn't make sense (though we will never know why by the sound of it). Hence also the stall on the Colony. No conspiracy theory here, looks pretty straight forward. He's a banker and will want a return on his investment. They are "looking at the options to redevelop the Mem". This gives them breathing space to figure out what to do next. Prepare for a long period of silence. And in the meantime enjoy the football. Ok, yes, I'm just saying that money spent on a training ground / stadium does not cause losses on the accounts, unless the project doesn't go ahead.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Oct 13, 2017 12:37:32 GMT
To be a bit pedantic, developing the stadium/training ground would not incur losses, as the money you spend becomes an asset in the accounts - unless the project doesn't go ahead.
The problem is cash.
They[owners] either do not have the money or are not prepared to spend the money is how it appears to me. Regarding sustainability i saw an article online which stated that 15 championship teams spend more than there total turnover on staff wages including bristol city who spent 123% of there income on staff! I cant see how were going to get anywhere [the championship] without overspending for a period of time at least. Ok, yes, I'm just saying that money spent on a training ground / stadium does not cause losses on the accounts, unless the project doesn't go ahead.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Oct 13, 2017 9:17:08 GMT
Can I add to that that the finances need to be in order, no point having a bells and whistles stadium unless the numbers work and the thing is sustainable. Thats a big subject though isnt it? To get the ground and training facility not to mention the category 2 academy status mentioned by the owner or owners son would surely involve big losses in the medium term? it would have to be future sustainability and massive increase in the value of the club in the future as the long term aim in my view. To be a bit pedantic, developing the stadium/training ground would not incur losses, as the money you spend becomes an asset in the accounts - unless the project doesn't go ahead.
The problem is cash.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 28, 2017 15:26:00 GMT
I'm sure it helped, as a last resort exit plan. Wouldn't have thought it would feature in tax planning though. Far more likely in my eyes that they are just racking up losses in one side of the business, to offset againt future possible profit, while recycling that interest back as loans. Or they could have just put the money in as equity? I'm not sure I follow the logic of your reasoning, especially as we appear to have wandered into the fantasy land of hypothetical future profits. I understand the need to try to see the best in the owners and situation we are in, but this seems a very roundabout way of trying to convince yourself there is absolutely nothing up with this. It's not fantasy, didn't we make a profit in the year we sold Lambert?
And that's kind of what planning is - preparing for hypothetical future events
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 28, 2017 14:41:56 GMT
To explain myself further, if the owners bought the club just to get their hands on the Mem site as you imply, then why haven't they wound the club up already, rather than letting it continue to lose money? Doesn't ring trure to me. I wasn't implying that but I'm pretty certain the site is what enabled Wael to persuade the rest of the family to get on board. How long they will allow the losses to keep racking up is a very good question. I'm sure it helped, as a last resort exit plan. Wouldn't have thought it would feature in tax planning though. Far more likely in my eyes that they are just racking up losses in one side of the business, to offset againt future possible profit, while recycling that interest back as loans.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 28, 2017 7:35:11 GMT
At the risk of repeating myself, we could if we made a large sale, or some other windfall. Like the sale of large piece of prime real estate? To explain myself further, if the owners bought the club just to get their hands on the Mem site as you imply, then why haven't they wound the club up already, rather than letting it continue to lose money? Doesn't ring trure to me.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 27, 2017 20:57:05 GMT
At the risk of repeating myself, we could if we made a large sale, or some other windfall. Like the sale of large piece of prime real estate? I guess. But I'm not sure that would work
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 27, 2017 14:55:00 GMT
Indeed.
Personally, unless someone has evidence that Dwayne is paying a dividend, then the interest payments don't bother me. Dwayne Sports seems to have been set up to hold the club, stadium and training ground, so any money transferred between any of them without leaving the Dwayne-rovers ecosystem is neither here nor there and is likely to just be tax planning, unless I'm missing something. You can't take money out of something that is worth nothing, which the FC business is.
My sole financial concern is what happens when the credit facility runs out.
Loss making football clubs don't pay tax. At the risk of repeating myself, we could if we made a large sale, or some other windfall.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 27, 2017 11:22:28 GMT
Maybe if they got £10m for him. As for what Dwane Sports are or aren't doing, no one gives a toss about that. There has been more uproar about a club employee having his job role changed. It's an embarrassment. Says who? People are very concerned about how the club's finances are structured, interest arrangements, a charge on the stadium with no explanation that makes any sense as to why it's there, why UWE didn't happen, what the reason is for delays with the training ground, what budget the manager is trying to work with, how/why we posted such a huge loss during a period when the team were performing so well and attendances were respectable, much more so than whether or not Ian Holtby has been treated fairly (sorry Ian) or whether or not his customers are upset. But having said that, it does raise an eyebrow that the new guy they've brought in with experience of doing the job from Championship into PL level can't even be bothered to make the effort to make friends with a couple of tables of customers in a tatty hospitality area. Indeed.
Personally, unless someone has evidence that Dwayne is paying a dividend, then the interest payments don't bother me. Dwayne Sports seems to have been set up to hold the club, stadium and training ground, so any money transferred between any of them without leaving the Dwayne-rovers ecosystem is neither here nor there and is likely to just be tax planning, unless I'm missing something. You can't take money out of something that is worth nothing, which the FC business is.
My sole financial concern is what happens when the credit facility runs out.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 27, 2017 11:15:37 GMT
If we were to sell Billy? Get promotion?
The amount of interest doesn't matter if it's immediately made available to the club, does it? Do we have any evidence that Dwayne Sports is paying a dividend?
Maybe if they got £10m for him. As for what Dwane Sports are or aren't doing, no one gives a toss about that. There has been more uproar about a club employee having his job role changed. It's an embarrassment. Probably only £1m or so to turn a profit for the year.
If you don't give a toss, why did you reply to my response to Kingswood Polak?
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 27, 2017 7:27:35 GMT
Well I don't know enough about Dwayne Sports' internal accounting to comment on that. They are based in the Channel Islands, aren't they? Maybe it's for tax reasons - reallocating profit should we make any offshore. Genius. I wonder when they expect to be turning a profit? If we were to sell Billy? Get promotion?
The amount of interest doesn't matter if it's immediately made available to the club, does it? Do we have any evidence that Dwayne Sports is paying a dividend?
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 26, 2017 14:46:59 GMT
Whilst that's true, I wouldn't like to see us overspend and end up in trouble again. Surely our owners could cut the percentage the club pay them and make us more attractive an option to prospective players. I still can’t get my head around us paying around 6% to our own owners, if true and Swiss made a good case for it. I wonder if any other clubs charge their own club interest ? Seems bizarre to me Well I don't know enough about Dwayne Sports' internal accounting to comment on that. They are based in the Channel Islands, aren't they? Maybe it's for tax reasons - reallocating profit should we make any offshore.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 26, 2017 13:28:39 GMT
Absolutely, I would be perfectly happy, even more so if things were moving on behind the scenes.
There's some people about with big feelings of entitlement, and big egos.
Having momentum plays a huge part in pushing a team to overachieve. I think we have missed a golden opportunity to build upon that momentum. Noting to do with entitlement or ego but plain ambition, based upon keeping the forward momentum going. I think we have blown a truly golden opportunity but obviously hope I get proved wrong Whilst that's true, I wouldn't like to see us overspend and end up in trouble again.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 26, 2017 13:27:30 GMT
If the club has decided that hospitality hosting and being Stadium Manager are incompatible on a match day, then surely those calling for Holtby to return as hospitality host are calling for him to no longer be Stadium Manager? And that's a pay cut, surely? As others have said, a Stadium Manager on match day should be out there making sure the Stadium is set up for the match, and making sure the stadium is operating smoothly. Monitoring queues, ensuring supporter comfort and safety, looking to improve the supporter experience. Making sure hospitality is going well too of course, with a hello and a handshake, but not spending the whole time there. Managing the Stadium I guess... He was Stadium manager when a certain long established Rugby Club played at the Mem from 1921-2014. He got their hospitality sorted and worked Sundays or whatever day they played. So his work load has decreased anyway. More importantly we lost about £750k a year following their departure to the green, green grass of BS3.
Blimey, that is long serving. Looks young for his age.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 26, 2017 12:55:08 GMT
This dude certainly wouldn't want DC gone should we finish mid table. How absolutely f******g mental. Much like the time hoards of Gasheads questioned Lennie's contribution to the playing staff 8 years back, we'll find ourselves back in League 2 in no time (& Championship football will be nothing but a mere fantasy) if DC is shown the door. That is a cert. Spot on. I'm glad we're out of a perennial struggle against relegation from the 4th tier, and establishing ourselves in the 3rd tier. If we're mid table in 2 years time I'll be glad we've got a period of stability for once. Absolutely, I would be perfectly happy, even more so if things were moving on behind the scenes.
There's some people about with big feelings of entitlement, and big egos.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 26, 2017 12:38:15 GMT
If the club has decided that hospitality hosting and being Stadium Manager are incompatible on a match day, then surely those calling for Holtby to return as hospitality host are calling for him to no longer be Stadium Manager? And that's a pay cut, surely?
As others have said, a Stadium Manager on match day should be out there making sure the Stadium is set up for the match, and making sure the stadium is operating smoothly. Monitoring queues, ensuring supporter comfort and safety, looking to improve the supporter experience. Making sure hospitality is going well too of course, with a hello and a handshake, but not spending the whole time there.
Managing the Stadium I guess...
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Sept 25, 2017 8:25:00 GMT
Maybe just maybe Mr Holtby asked the management if they could find somebody else to do that job so he could commit more time to more important things on a Saturday... like get the stadium ready for 10,000 gates That's what I assumed. He has to run around like a blue arsed fly on match days from what I understand, if we have someone else who can do just as good a job on the hospitality, then why not free up Ian's time?
So many assuming that this was against his will. It might be, but do we know that?
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