faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Nov 8, 2017 8:55:19 GMT
That's what the general anti-avoidance rule is there for, unfortunately it's so woolly that HMRC are afraid to bring cases.
Then there is the question of morality. Tax avoidance is to some extent immoral, tax planning using intended incentives is not.
I don't believe "woolly" or "afraid". HMRC/FSA/FCA have been led for some time by people from the banking/tax..er," planning ",sector for a while. They & their political masters are too close to the " industry " to have the motivation to challenge it,e.g. Cameron, who professed opposition to it,but whose father had used it. Actually, I can understand sporting/entertainment individuals who's earning career might be limited, wanting to protect they & their families future. Wouldn't you? It's the corporate stuff & corrupt politicians that really annoy me. But as said before, it's not illegal, just arguably immoral. It's down to politicians to address it.BTW,Juncker is a leading exponent of turning his country into a tax haven. Agree to an extent - I'm not sure that the top people at HMRC deliberately turn a blind eye or are overtly corrupt, but I do think there is two more subtle factors.
- Fear of failure, i.e. they are afraid of being called out for spending a lot of money on court cases that they don't win; - Normalisation of dodgy practice - they are, as you say, from the financial industry, so where there is certain behaviour or activity that seems shocking to the layman, it wouldn't even occur to them that is anything but normal practice. Problem is, who else but industry insiders would understand it's workings?
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Nov 7, 2017 13:27:22 GMT
My main point was about the difference between tax avoidance and tax incentives. The key is intent. I wouldn't disagree with intent, but if it is done legally, than the authorities have to do things to make it illegal. That isn't the fault of individuals or accountants doing the best with the money to hand That's what the general anti-avoidance rule is there for, unfortunately it's so woolly that HMRC are afraid to bring cases.
Then there is the question of morality. Tax avoidance is to some extent immoral, tax planning using intended incentives is not.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Nov 7, 2017 11:33:49 GMT
Paying the builder in cash is tax evasion, not avoidance, and is illegal.
Regarding pensions and ISAs, you're mixing up tax planning (or sheltering), and tax avoidance. Making use of intended tax reliefs is tax planning. Tax avoidance is making use of the tax system for your own advantage in a way that is not intended by the government. That's why there is a general anti-avoidance rule in UK law, lawmakers cannot be expected to think of every opportunity for avoidance, the system is too complicated.
The GAAR: "prevents the reduction of tax by legal arrangements, where those arrangements are put in place purely to reduce tax, and would not otherwise be regarded as a reasonable course of action." Putting money into a pension plan is a reasonable course of action, as a pension plan is intended to provide you with an income when you retire. Putting money into a savings account is a reasonable course of action. The fact that they are tax incentivised doesn't effect the fact that they are reasonable courses of action. Some of the recent revelations may well be illegal due to the GAAR - why are people putting money into businesses in Panama, for example, when they have no interest in Panama, don't live there, and the business doesn't carry out any obvious activity? Were it not for the avoidance of tax, would that be a reasonable course of action?
Good job none of us have ever paid the builder cash in hand then My main point was about the difference between tax avoidance and tax incentives. The key is intent.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Nov 7, 2017 8:45:27 GMT
I hope you frown at yourself and show moral indignation when you pay cash in hand for anything. If nothing illegal has been done, than the fingers should be pointed at Governments and tax rules/loopholes individuals. We all avoid tax in some shape or form (legally or illegally) be it from Pension investments/ISAs. Paying the builder in cash It's only really the amounts that are different Paying the builder in cash is tax evasion, not avoidance, and is illegal.
Regarding pensions and ISAs, you're mixing up tax planning (or sheltering), and tax avoidance. Making use of intended tax reliefs is tax planning. Tax avoidance is making use of the tax system for your own advantage in a way that is not intended by the government. That's why there is a general anti-avoidance rule in UK law, lawmakers cannot be expected to think of every opportunity for avoidance, the system is too complicated.
The GAAR: "prevents the reduction of tax by legal arrangements, where those arrangements are put in place purely to reduce tax, and would not otherwise be regarded as a reasonable course of action." Putting money into a pension plan is a reasonable course of action, as a pension plan is intended to provide you with an income when you retire. Putting money into a savings account is a reasonable course of action. The fact that they are tax incentivised doesn't effect the fact that they are reasonable courses of action. Some of the recent revelations may well be illegal due to the GAAR - why are people putting money into businesses in Panama, for example, when they have no interest in Panama, don't live there, and the business doesn't carry out any obvious activity? Were it not for the avoidance of tax, would that be a reasonable course of action?
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Nov 3, 2017 16:30:24 GMT
My clients want to know about the future of the company I work for My customers want to know how fast i can fix their computer for them, i'm pretty sure they don't care if i'm here in 10 years or not My customers want to know if we will be able to continuosly support and improve the product that they are buying from us.
Being a football fan is not like buying a one-off product, it's more like paying for an ongoing service which is integrated into your life, and would cause you hardship if withdrawn.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Nov 3, 2017 13:02:03 GMT
I can't begin to guess who would believe what, there are plenty of people around who hold what appear to me to be rather odd beliefs, but the reason that the owners of football clubs should talk candidly to supporters is that we are their customers. Do you mislead your customers? My Customers do not get involved in the day to day management of my shops My clients want to know about the future of the company I work for
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Nov 1, 2017 14:11:12 GMT
I don't have faith in anything, if I can practically avoid it. Where possible, I look at the evidence, and make a judgement using my experience and logic. I then try to continuously test that judgement based on further evidence. I try to look at all scenarios, and decide which ones are most likely, but keep in mind that I might be wrong. Why would you have 'faith' in some people you've never even met properly? Ha, you've been reading my diary It's easy to demonstrate that faith isn't a reliable pathway to truth, so why would anyone with half an ounce of common sense use it to support any belief? But I'm not sure that's what Dinsdale meant here, I'm guessing that what was meant was 'Do people still have confidence in the new owners'? The answer for me is that they won't allow their investment to explode in their faces, but whilst for Wael it's a dream to own a football club, for the rest of the family it's just another business, and probably one that takes a huge amount of valuable time and effort for very little tangible return. I wonder what happens when someone expresses an interest in buying, everybody else around the table looks relieved and says that they should sell but Wael wants to keep his toy? Ok, confidence. Personally, I'm not sure - I have questions that would need to be answered before I could have confidence. Fact is, I don't know - I just don't have enough to go on.
These splinters up my bum hurt
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Nov 1, 2017 8:47:32 GMT
I don't have faith in anything, if I can practically avoid it. Where possible, I look at the evidence, and make a judgement using my experience and logic. I then try to continuously test that judgement based on further evidence. I try to look at all scenarios, and decide which ones are most likely, but keep in mind that I might be wrong.
Why would you have 'faith' in some people you've never even met properly?
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Macca
Oct 27, 2017 7:59:08 GMT
Post by faggotygas on Oct 27, 2017 7:59:08 GMT
Top 6 is a league position Top 6 is a higher league position. yes...
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Oct 26, 2017 14:17:31 GMT
What proof do you have Harry Buckle that Darrell has the potential if backed by sufficient funds to9 get a club into the Championship? I have seen nothing yet in his signings to provide me with the optimism that he can spend money well and obtain Championship quality players. I can see that you have used the words potential and sufficient funds but what is sufficient funds? To me DC is a reasonable League 1 Manager at the present time and that is all. With our present performances I do not see us losing him. The transfer market is so skewed and insane now, what constitutes having money and knowing how to spend it?
if we got to the championship, or DC goes there, the money becomes even more insane. Currently people are talking about Nicholls at circa 300k being a poor signing for the money and wanting proven scorer, but in The championship you will be looking at £5m plus to get hold of one of them
Clubs will look at DC and the job he has done and think he has done well with relatively little I suspect and that's why they would take a punt on him
The question for me id I don't think DC will just go to any club, he will want to go the right club for him that fits the way or will allow him to work the way he wants to work
Bang on. £300k is nothing for a League 1 striker, and doesn't guarantee you anything.
Probably the cheapest player we could have got who has a recent record of scoring 20+ goals in more than one season in League 1 is Billy Sharp, and he would have cost a lot more than £300k (plus he wouldn't want to come here)
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Oct 26, 2017 14:15:46 GMT
The transfer market is so skewed and insane now, what constitutes having money and knowing how to spend it?
if we got to the championship, or DC goes there, the money becomes even more insane. Currently people are talking about Nicholls at circa 300k being a poor signing for the money and wanting proven scorer, but in The championship you will be looking at £5m plus to get hold of one of them
Clubs will look at DC and the job he has done and think he has done well with relatively little I suspect and that's why they would take a punt on him
The question for me id I don't think DC will just go to any club, he will want to go the right club for him that fits the way or will allow him to work the way he wants to work
The sh*t got one for £300k...... But look at the wages they had to chuck at him - the cost of a player is not just the transfer fee
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Posts: 1,862
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Macca
Oct 26, 2017 12:37:08 GMT
Post by faggotygas on Oct 26, 2017 12:37:08 GMT
It is, and therefore problably has no final conclusion. Fun arguing it though But, There are a lot of posts on hear moaning that we are not top 6 at the moment, so would appear more value a promotion than a higher league position. Top 6 is a league position
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Macca
Oct 26, 2017 9:07:42 GMT
Post by faggotygas on Oct 26, 2017 9:07:42 GMT
It is a point of football philosophy you two are each respectively arguing. I am unsure of with whom I agree. It is, and therefore problably has no final conclusion. Fun arguing it though
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Posts: 1,862
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Macca
Oct 25, 2017 13:01:26 GMT
Post by faggotygas on Oct 25, 2017 13:01:26 GMT
That doesn't refute my statement So you're saying Macca's biggest success at Rovers was last season? Yep
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Posts: 1,862
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Macca
Oct 25, 2017 11:06:04 GMT
Post by faggotygas on Oct 25, 2017 11:06:04 GMT
Macca achieved 94th and 71st place, Warren achieved 26th place. Your logic clearly extends to winning promotion from the Gloucestershire County League Div 2 denoting a more succesful career than achieving 2nd place in the Premier League, which is clearly nonsense.
I'm of the opinion success is winning things not achieving things. What do you think Warren was more proud of when he retired? Finishing 6th in the second tier or winning the Third Division (South)? That doesn't refute my statement
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Posts: 1,862
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Macca
Oct 25, 2017 9:55:55 GMT
Post by faggotygas on Oct 25, 2017 9:55:55 GMT
Whilst 3 promotions are 3 promotions, 6th in the Championship is 6th in the Championship.
The different divisions are not different fields, they are part of a single football pyramid. Finishing 94th and 71st in the pyramid, while showing a a degree of success, cannot be as considered as successful as finishing 27th.
Macca won Promotion twice, Warren won Promotion once. It's quite simple. Macca achieved 94th and 71st place, Warren achieved 26th place. Your logic clearly extends to winning promotion from the Gloucestershire County League Div 2 denoting a more succesful career than achieving 2nd place in the Premier League, which is clearly nonsense.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Macca
Oct 25, 2017 7:31:21 GMT
Post by faggotygas on Oct 25, 2017 7:31:21 GMT
So, promotion from the Gloucestershire County League (Div 2) would be worth more than runners up in the Champions League? Great example of taking something out of context. Success in your field is still success. Chris Lines is Rovers most successful ever player, is he the greatest? Probably not. Three promotions though are three promotions. Whilst 3 promotions are 3 promotions, 6th in the Championship is 6th in the Championship.
The different divisions are not different fields, they are part of a single football pyramid. Finishing 94th and 71st in the pyramid, while showing a a degree of success, cannot be as considered as successful as finishing 27th.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Macca
Oct 24, 2017 15:59:58 GMT
Post by faggotygas on Oct 24, 2017 15:59:58 GMT
Christiano Ronaldo doesn't have a promotion on his CV... I count success as winning things, if you win something you are successful. Be it a pub quiz, promotion from the Conference or the European Cup. The argument could be made Rovers underachieved in the 50's. So, promotion from the Gloucestershire County League (Div 2) would be worth more than runners up in the Champions League?
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Posts: 1,862
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Macca
Oct 24, 2017 12:19:41 GMT
Post by faggotygas on Oct 24, 2017 12:19:41 GMT
I think 6th place in the equivalent of the championship is a pretty good marker tbh. Two Promotions vs One Promotion. Christiano Ronaldo doesn't have a promotion on his CV...
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Oct 24, 2017 12:17:16 GMT
Hi Swiss
The corporate tax rate on Jersey is indeed 0%, but BRFC (1883) Ltd and the FC are registered in the UK, so increasing losses in the UK to generate profit in Jersey is exactly my point.
Regarding profit - a large sale of a player could produce a one-off profit, as may a significant cup run or possibly promotion.
I'm not tax management expert though, so I realise that my argument may have holes, and I'm happy to hear them - I'm just putting it forward as one possible non-sinister scenario.
As has already been pointed out, owners up and down the land from Burton, to Forest Green to Brighton put their money in as equity. It's not necessarily sinister, though I for one would love to know exactly what makes us different. I would also like some assurances that any money being taken out of the club in interest is being put back into the club and is not affecting DC's playing budget in any way. A fair question. I'd love to hear the answer too, but I'm not assuming that something nasty is going on (while being cautious that there could be...)
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