Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 8:32:28 GMT
Sticking some dosh into an account for the manager to use doesn't need PP. The rest of it; UWE had PP, they let that slip through their fingers and didn't give any kind of explanation that I could understand. The training ground, what Hamer has said so far makes no sense to me so I'm far from hopeful on that front. Now we are supposed to have faith that they are going to develop the existing ground when their build plan is one that every other study has rejected on cost grounds. I'm not sure what faith is exactly, maybe gullibility, maybe believing things on bad evidence, either way, I'm not big on it. Everything you say is pretty accurate. However we, the fans, do not know the reasoning behind decisions made. Hence the idle speculation and faux outrage. Perhaps they have done exactly what some demanded in the past. Points which I think you may have argued for in the past. 1. Stabilised the finances by creating a fully funded working capital facility 2. Identified projects that required investment capital and evaluated them accordingly. Would they bother with point 2 if sources of investment were not identified and known? Doubt it. Would these guys have provided up to £10M of working capital unless they saw an exit route to get their capital back? I doubt it. So, although I do accept their "expectations management's has not been great, from a pure commercial perspective things do have a certain logic. Just a perspective The problem then is that if this is all good management and it's just that UWE were being unreasonable, the training ground is being thought through in minute detail to provide a top notch facility etc etc, just explain to us what's happening, don't push an inarticulate pudding to the fore and have him bumble his way through statements, then when Wael does speak himself, say stuff that makes sense, don't be telling us you have no external debt but have placed a charge on your own asset 'just in case', it's bound to raise eyebrows.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 9:31:14 GMT
Everything you say is pretty accurate. However we, the fans, do not know the reasoning behind decisions made. Hence the idle speculation and faux outrage. Perhaps they have done exactly what some demanded in the past. Points which I think you may have argued for in the past. 1. Stabilised the finances by creating a fully funded working capital facility 2. Identified projects that required investment capital and evaluated them accordingly. Would they bother with point 2 if sources of investment were not identified and known? Doubt it. Would these guys have provided up to £10M of working capital unless they saw an exit route to get their capital back? I doubt it. So, although I do accept their "expectations management's has not been great, from a pure commercial perspective things do have a certain logic. Just a perspective The problem then is that if this is all good management and it's just that UWE were being unreasonable, the training ground is being thought through in minute detail to provide a top notch facility etc etc, just explain to us what's happening, don't push an inarticulate pudding to the fore and have him bumble his way through statements, then when Wael does speak himself, say stuff that makes sense, don't be telling us you have no external debt but have placed a charge on your own asset 'just in case', it's bound to raise eyebrows. Personally I think Mr Hamer has a lot to answer for when it comes to his role as chairman. It is HIS job to lead communications to vested parties and surely fans of the club are vested? In terms of the working capital provided, arguably that is shareholder loans and not external debt. If they ever manage to get a new stadium built I would think they would convert that to equity. As such the exit route would be more clear. If we are still discussing this as it stands in five years, then your base premise would be absolutely right. Let's see. We waited how long after 2006 to see the club rid itself of that detritus? Viva la revolution.😉
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 9:43:27 GMT
The problem then is that if this is all good management and it's just that UWE were being unreasonable, the training ground is being thought through in minute detail to provide a top notch facility etc etc, just explain to us what's happening, don't push an inarticulate pudding to the fore and have him bumble his way through statements, then when Wael does speak himself, say stuff that makes sense, don't be telling us you have no external debt but have placed a charge on your own asset 'just in case', it's bound to raise eyebrows. Personally I think Mr Hamer has a lot to answer for when it comes to his role as chairman. It is HIS job to lead communications to vested parties and surely fans of the club are vested? In terms of the working capital provided, arguably that is shareholder loans and not external debt. If they ever manage to get a new stadium built I would think they would convert that to equity. As such the exit route would be more clear. If we are still discussing this as it stands in five years, then your base premise would be absolutely right. Let's see. We waited how long after 2006 to see the club rid itself of that detritus? Viva la revolution.😉 If these owners are still here in 5 years I'll eat my hat, and I don't own a hat, I would have to go out and buy one, special. This doesn't look to me like the investment profile of people building an empire. More like people trying to put together something to pitch to investors.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,488
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Post by eppinggas on Oct 26, 2017 10:07:43 GMT
I'm probably with Bamber on this one. It doesn't mean we don't get behind the Al-Qadi family in the meantime. They came in with good intentions. Sadly the UWE stadium didn't happen (for reasons we will probably never know) and now we are in limbo. "Assessing options for re-developing the Mem" - my arse. This equates to breathing space for the owners and radio silence for 6 months or so. I don't think we will be owned by Dwayne Sports in 2 years time, let alone 5. But I have a strong feeling that Wael will still turn up for games. UTG.
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Igitur
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 2,294
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Post by Igitur on Oct 26, 2017 11:08:00 GMT
I'm probably with Bamber on this one. It doesn't mean we don't get behind the Al-Qadi family in the meantime. They came in with good intentions. Sadly the UWE stadium didn't happen (for reasons we will probably never know) and now we are in limbo. "Assessing options for re-developing the Mem" - my arse. This equates to breathing space for the owners and radio silence for 6 months or so. I don't think we will be owned by Dwayne Sports in 2 years time, let alone 5. But I have a strong feeling that Wael will still turn up for games. UTG. Wael turning up at some, let's face it, unglamorous places after a less than inspiring start is one of the straws I am clinging to that the AQs are still interested in the club.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on Oct 26, 2017 14:08:59 GMT
Far too soon to be even mentioning the Al Qadi family with those you have. Maybe time to ramp back on the anger and give it some patience, for now. I too have my reservations and especially after reading swissgas posts but I am not throwing toys out of my proverbial prom just yet. Fact is, none of us know what hurdles have had to be overcome and if anything is standing in the way of developments. Wael has voiced his ire at how slowly things progress in Bristol. Maybe the biggest of all problems could be battles with various groups. I find it a bit distasteful that you are drawing comparisons to the names you have. Would you rather have Higgs back ? Yes true,the names mentioned have badly damaged their clubs and our owner has not so it was a bit ott . Our owners dwayne sports need to deliver something worthwhile soon for me but i seriously doubt that they will. I too have my reservations but seeing Wael at away games and with our fans, not from the comfort of a box, makes me feel that he will fight our corner. It is only natural for us to be upset & even angry given the UWE news and apparent lack of work or news on the academy but I think we need to give them at least to the end of this season before we make any true judgment although the January transfer window will give us some idea whether the family will bring in the players we so obviously need. i must say that it certainly made me feel conflicted when Marcus Stewart so openly took the microphone to say that they have been backed to have anything they have asked for. It makes me feel that maybe DC was the one who messed up recruitment rather than having restrictions imposed by the owners
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Post by a more piratey game on Oct 26, 2017 15:15:42 GMT
Yes true,the names mentioned have badly damaged their clubs and our owner has not so it was a bit ott . Our owners dwayne sports need to deliver something worthwhile soon for me but i seriously doubt that they will. I too have my reservations but seeing Wael at away games and with our fans, not from the comfort of a box, makes me feel that he will fight our corner. It is only natural for us to be upset & even angry given the UWE news and apparent lack of work or news on the academy but I think we need to give them at least to the end of this season before we make any true judgment although the January transfer window will give us some idea whether the family will bring in the players we so obviously need. i must say that it certainly made me feel conflicted when Marcus Stewart so openly took the microphone to say that they have been backed to habe anything they habe asked for. It makes me feel that maybe DC was the one who messed up recruitment rather than having restrictions imposed by the owners I think 'messed up' might be a bit strong. We can have targets and try as hard as we like, but the good 'uns have probably got options and we'll probably rarely get all that we'd like
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on Oct 26, 2017 17:10:18 GMT
I too have my reservations but seeing Wael at away games and with our fans, not from the comfort of a box, makes me feel that he will fight our corner. It is only natural for us to be upset & even angry given the UWE news and apparent lack of work or news on the academy but I think we need to give them at least to the end of this season before we make any true judgment although the January transfer window will give us some idea whether the family will bring in the players we so obviously need. i must say that it certainly made me feel conflicted when Marcus Stewart so openly took the microphone to say that they have been backed to habe anything they habe asked for. It makes me feel that maybe DC was the one who messed up recruitment rather than having restrictions imposed by the owners I think 'messed up' might be a bit strong. We can have targets and try as hard as we like, but the good 'uns have probably got options and we'll probably rarely get all that we'd like Ok, maybe been too slow to act, too entrenched in his belief that you can keep on picking up rough diamonds etc.
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Post by droitwichgas on Oct 26, 2017 18:26:56 GMT
Yes true,the names mentioned have badly damaged their clubs and our owner has not so it was a bit ott . Our owners dwayne sports need to deliver something worthwhile soon for me but i seriously doubt that they will. I too have my reservations but seeing Wael at away games and with our fans, not from the comfort of a box, makes me feel that he will fight our corner. It is only natural for us to be upset & even angry given the UWE news and apparent lack of work or news on the academy but I think we need to give them at least to the end of this season before we make any true judgment although the January transfer window will give us some idea whether the family will bring in the players we so obviously need. i must say that it certainly made me feel conflicted when Marcus Stewart so openly took the microphone to say that they have been backed to habe anything they habe asked for. It makes me feel that maybe DC was the one who messed up recruitment rather than having restrictions imposed by the owners Perhaps it's just MS is prepared to brown nose more than DC, as they are certainly not singing from the same hymn sheet at the moment as DC's saying the lack of a decent training ground is holding us back, MS saying the present ground is good enough, if that's the case why are to even thinking of spending £m's at The Colony. My take is Wael bought into the club thinking we'd build the UWE with no problems now he's stuck with no real Plan B just playing for time as he doesn't want to let fans down.
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LPGas
Stuart Taylor
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,240
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Post by LPGas on Oct 26, 2017 18:29:51 GMT
I feel badly let down by the owner of the club hani. Lots of broken promises on budgets,UWE and the training ground up and running by 2018-2019 all a bloody mirage! Now we have a fan base expecting a top league one team when its more likely to have a badly struggling one. Whats the point of taking over a struggling football club and not throwing serious money at it? I wish the owners would just quietly fade away back to making millions in banking. Feel sorry for darrell clarke as hes becoming just another struggling manager waiting for the sack as the support start to turn on him as all "fans" do in the modern era. Higgs would have delivered a ground with the sainsbury deal at any time from the start of the new millennium until very recent changes in shoppers habits so at least in part was unlucky. The present owners are right up there in a mini league with the oystens,venkys and the leyton orient lunatic for me. I would have much preferred not having my hopes raised that we were gunning for bristol city with a state of the art stadium and a category 2 academy,yes remember that? a cat 2 academy!! Rubbish and cheap talk. Name all the chairmen of bristol rovers that have done more for the football club than harry dolman or steve lansdown have at city. 1] ? 2]? 3] ? 4]? To compare us to city is the same as Notts Forest to Notts Cointy there will always be one club more successful than the other. For us there is no comparison, we will never be as big a club as city. Most of our history has been in this division, most of City's has been in the division above. Lansdowne has effectively retired from business probably living of the interest that he has a accrued from his one billion fortune. I doubt if the El Quadi family have that sort of cash (each) I say each because Lansdowne has that fortune ON HIS OWN. For me the Dunfords saved us from oblivion and then Geoff brought us back home. I will be eternally grateful for both. You post looks like your eyes have gone green with envy. Why bother worrying about them? or their tax dodging chairman. Truth is we are doing better than we should whilst all the money Lansdowne has spent over the years means that they are not doing as well as they should. Jealousy gets you nowhere
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 20:06:10 GMT
I feel badly let down by the owner of the club hani. Lots of broken promises on budgets,UWE and the training ground up and running by 2018-2019 all a bloody mirage! Now we have a fan base expecting a top league one team when its more likely to have a badly struggling one. Whats the point of taking over a struggling football club and not throwing serious money at it? I wish the owners would just quietly fade away back to making millions in banking. Feel sorry for darrell clarke as hes becoming just another struggling manager waiting for the sack as the support start to turn on him as all "fans" do in the modern era. Higgs would have delivered a ground with the sainsbury deal at any time from the start of the new millennium until very recent changes in shoppers habits so at least in part was unlucky. The present owners are right up there in a mini league with the oystens,venkys and the leyton orient lunatic for me. I would have much preferred not having my hopes raised that we were gunning for bristol city with a state of the art stadium and a category 2 academy,yes remember that? a cat 2 academy!! Rubbish and cheap talk. Name all the chairmen of bristol rovers that have done more for the football club than harry dolman or steve lansdown have at city. 1] ? 2]? 3] ? 4]? To compare us to city is the same as Notts Forest to Notts Cointy there will always be one club more successful than the other. For us there is no comparison, we will never be as big a club as city. Most of our history has been in this division, most of City's has been in the division above. Lansdowne has effectively retired from business probably living of the interest that he has a accrued from his one billion fortune. I doubt if the El Quadi family have that sort of cash (each) I say each because Lansdowne has that fortune ON HIS OWN. For me the Dunfords saved us from oblivion and then Geoff brought us back home. I will be eternally grateful for both. You post looks like your eyes have gone green with envy. Why bother worrying about them? or their tax dodging chairman. Truth is we are doing better than we should whilst all the money Lansdowne has spent over the years means that they are not doing as well as they should. Jealousy gets you nowhere Maybe i should have left city out of the post and gone for one of the other 60+ clubs that have hugely improved their infrastructure by actually getting things done. The manager and the group of players somehow got us to league 1 but so many clubs have left us behind in terms of ground and training set up and commercial activity that i wonder if league 2 is a more natural place for us nowadays? Also both clubs spent many years in division 3 or division 3 south so for much of our histories both teams were in the same division.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 20:50:10 GMT
I feel badly let down by the owner of the club hani. Lots of broken promises on budgets,UWE and the training ground up and running by 2018-2019 all a bloody mirage! Now we have a fan base expecting a top league one team when its more likely to have a badly struggling one. Whats the point of taking over a struggling football club and not throwing serious money at it? I wish the owners would just quietly fade away back to making millions in banking. Feel sorry for darrell clarke as hes becoming just another struggling manager waiting for the sack as the support start to turn on him as all "fans" do in the modern era. Higgs would have delivered a ground with the sainsbury deal at any time from the start of the new millennium until very recent changes in shoppers habits so at least in part was unlucky. The present owners are right up there in a mini league with the oystens,venkys and the leyton orient lunatic for me. I would have much preferred not having my hopes raised that we were gunning for bristol city with a state of the art stadium and a category 2 academy,yes remember that? a cat 2 academy!! Rubbish and cheap talk. Name all the chairmen of bristol rovers that have done more for the football club than harry dolman or steve lansdown have at city. 1] ? 2]? 3] ? 4]? To compare us to city is the same as Notts Forest to Notts Cointy there will always be one club more successful than the other. For us there is no comparison, we will never be as big a club as city. Most of our history has been in this division, most of City's has been in the division above. Lansdowne has effectively retired from business probably living of the interest that he has a accrued from his one billion fortune. I doubt if the El Quadi family have that sort of cash (each) I say each because Lansdowne has that fortune ON HIS OWN. For me the Dunfords saved us from oblivion and then Geoff brought us back home. I will be eternally grateful for both. You post looks like your eyes have gone green with envy. Why bother worrying about them? or their tax dodging chairman. Truth is we are doing better than we should whilst all the money Lansdowne has spent over the years means that they are not doing as well as they should. Jealousy gets you nowhere That lot from the wrong side of town don't have the history that Forest have, we have an awful lot more potential than County. No doubt there are comparisons that could be made, but that isn't a great one. Either way, there's a choice, wallow around in the 3rd division and always wonder about the potential of a club that takes 40,000+ to showpiece games, or stick some money on the table and join the chasing pack in the 2nd tier. Over to you Hani. Not holding my breath though
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Post by chelt_gas on Oct 26, 2017 21:58:43 GMT
To compare us to city is the same as Notts Forest to Notts Cointy there will always be one club more successful than the other. For us there is no comparison, we will never be as big a club as city. Most of our history has been in this division, most of City's has been in the division above. Lansdowne has effectively retired from business probably living of the interest that he has a accrued from his one billion fortune. I doubt if the El Quadi family have that sort of cash (each) I say each because Lansdowne has that fortune ON HIS OWN. For me the Dunfords saved us from oblivion and then Geoff brought us back home. I will be eternally grateful for both. You post looks like your eyes have gone green with envy. Why bother worrying about them? or their tax dodging chairman. Truth is we are doing better than we should whilst all the money Lansdowne has spent over the years means that they are not doing as well as they should. Jealousy gets you nowhere That lot from the wrong side of town don't have the history that Forest have, we have an awful lot more potential than County. No doubt there are comparisons that could be made, but that isn't a great one. Either way, there's a choice, wallow around in the 3rd division and always wonder about the potential of a club that takes 40,000+ to showpiece games, or stick some money on the table and join the chasing pack in the 2nd tier. Over to you Hani. Not holding my breath though History can also be created by good management, history is not about money is about achievements and the story behind how success was achieved. For all of Lansdown's laundry money currently buying success and 1982's notorious bankruptcy episode I'd much rather take our history of achieving to stay afloat from careful accounting and digging in deep. That's something s**theads can never buy and I hope Wael achieves success for the club through achievement rather than paying reluctant foreign imports to join the team (we'll ignore the Latvian in our case).
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 23:11:05 GMT
That lot from the wrong side of town don't have the history that Forest have, we have an awful lot more potential than County. No doubt there are comparisons that could be made, but that isn't a great one. Either way, there's a choice, wallow around in the 3rd division and always wonder about the potential of a club that takes 40,000+ to showpiece games, or stick some money on the table and join the chasing pack in the 2nd tier. Over to you Hani. Not holding my breath though History can also be created by good management, history is not about money is about achievements and the story behind how success was achieved. For all of Lansdown's laundry money currently buying success and 1982's notorious bankruptcy episode I'd much rather take our history of achieving to stay afloat from careful accounting and digging in deep. That's something s***heads can never buy and I hope Wael achieves success for the club through achievement rather than paying reluctant foreign imports to join the team (we'll ignore the Latvian in our case). Twenty years ago I would have agreed 100%, the problem now is that the 2nd division is stuffed full of clubs with PL parachute money and wealthy foreign owners willing to chuck far more at clubs just to get into the first division than it cost Walker to buy the title for Blackburn. This, in part, is why I don't think our owners will be around long, if they are messing around with the comparatively small sums needed to deal with the training facilities, they don't have a professional media front man, we didn't exactly set the world on fire with our summer recruitment etc etc, how can you have any confidence that they are ever going to sanction the transfer fees and salaries needed to compete in the 2nd tier? That level of competition and the numbers involved is, from a business point of view, hugely risky. Hope I'm reading it all wrong and am writing a grovelling apology by this time next year.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2017 3:58:57 GMT
History can also be created by good management, history is not about money is about achievements and the story behind how success was achieved. For all of Lansdown's laundry money currently buying success and 1982's notorious bankruptcy episode I'd much rather take our history of achieving to stay afloat from careful accounting and digging in deep. That's something s***heads can never buy and I hope Wael achieves success for the club through achievement rather than paying reluctant foreign imports to join the team (we'll ignore the Latvian in our case). Twenty years ago I would have agreed 100%, the problem now is that the 2nd division is stuffed full of clubs with PL parachute money and wealthy foreign owners willing to chuck far more at clubs just to get into the first division than it cost Walker to buy the title for Blackburn. This, in part, is why I don't think our owners will be around long, if they are messing around with the comparatively small sums needed to deal with the training facilities, they don't have a professional media front man, we didn't exactly set the world on fire with our summer recruitment etc etc, how can you have any confidence that they are ever going to sanction the transfer fees and salaries needed to compete in the 2nd tier? That level of competition and the numbers involved is, from a business point of view, hugely risky. Hope I'm reading it all wrong and am writing a grovelling apology by this time next year. Therein lies the rub. We may see a lot of planning input over the next year, but I wonder if there will be much output. If the £10 million facility is accurate, do you really think they will expand that facility without any firm route to payback? Would You?
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Post by Henbury Gas on Oct 27, 2017 7:19:04 GMT
Oh i do love a good conspiracy
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Captain Jayho
Andy Tillson
Straight outta burrington...
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 472
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Post by Captain Jayho on Oct 27, 2017 8:06:56 GMT
Twenty years ago I would have agreed 100%, the problem now is that the 2nd division is stuffed full of clubs with PL parachute money and wealthy foreign owners willing to chuck far more at clubs just to get into the first division than it cost Walker to buy the title for Blackburn. This, in part, is why I don't think our owners will be around long, if they are messing around with the comparatively small sums needed to deal with the training facilities, they don't have a professional media front man, we didn't exactly set the world on fire with our summer recruitment etc etc, how can you have any confidence that they are ever going to sanction the transfer fees and salaries needed to compete in the 2nd tier? That level of competition and the numbers involved is, from a business point of view, hugely risky. Hope I'm reading it all wrong and am writing a grovelling apology by this time next year. Therein lies the rub. We may see a lot of planning input over the next year, but I wonder if there will be much output. If the £10 million facility is accurate, do you really think they will expand that facility without any firm route to payback? Would You? This is exactly where I struggle to understand where we are going under the Al Qadis. Just my opinion here but the ten million threshold is going to be reached pretty quickly the way we are going - the next few sets of accounts could be a real shock I think. And then where do we go at that point because there is now little to no hope that we will have developed new revenue streams (read new stadium facilities) by that point in time. There's going to be a clear and lengthy gap between that point in time when that ten million pound facility is exhausted and when we can start to generate some of our own serious revenue. Yes, we were losing money under the previous regime, but unless I am mistaken it was nowhere near the rate that we are now losing money. Maybe I'm just too conservative but I'd like to understand where our income is going to be generated at some point! That however appears to be a closely guarded secret that we're not allowed access to.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2017 8:07:04 GMT
Twenty years ago I would have agreed 100%, the problem now is that the 2nd division is stuffed full of clubs with PL parachute money and wealthy foreign owners willing to chuck far more at clubs just to get into the first division than it cost Walker to buy the title for Blackburn. This, in part, is why I don't think our owners will be around long, if they are messing around with the comparatively small sums needed to deal with the training facilities, they don't have a professional media front man, we didn't exactly set the world on fire with our summer recruitment etc etc, how can you have any confidence that they are ever going to sanction the transfer fees and salaries needed to compete in the 2nd tier? That level of competition and the numbers involved is, from a business point of view, hugely risky. Hope I'm reading it all wrong and am writing a grovelling apology by this time next year. Therein lies the rub. We may see a lot of planning input over the next year, but I wonder if there will be much output. If the £10 million facility is accurate, do you really think they will expand that facility without any firm route to payback? Would You? Can't answer that question without knowing the exact deal that was on offer from UWE. But one thing I do know, I wouldn't buy a football club and expect to get away with lending my own money to it at 6%. If this is what they think owning a football club is about then plans for new grounds, deals with stadium partners etc are never going to happen.
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Post by alloutofgas on Oct 28, 2017 9:11:05 GMT
How can they do that quickly when everything involves planning permission? Sticking some dosh into an account for the manager to use doesn't need PP. The rest of it; UWE had PP, they let that slip through their fingers and didn't give any kind of explanation that I could understand. The training ground, what Hamer has said so far makes no sense to me so I'm far from hopeful on that front. Now we are supposed to have faith that they are going to develop the existing ground when their build plan is one that every other study has rejected on cost grounds. I'm not sure what faith is exactly, maybe gullibility, maybe believing things on bad evidence, either way, I'm not big on it. I would suggest the explanation for the demise of the UWE is ‘they don’t want to spend any money’
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Post by laughinggas on Oct 28, 2017 10:17:00 GMT
Sticking some dosh into an account for the manager to use doesn't need PP. The rest of it; UWE had PP, they let that slip through their fingers and didn't give any kind of explanation that I could understand. The training ground, what Hamer has said so far makes no sense to me so I'm far from hopeful on that front. Now we are supposed to have faith that they are going to develop the existing ground when their build plan is one that every other study has rejected on cost grounds. I'm not sure what faith is exactly, maybe gullibility, maybe believing things on bad evidence, either way, I'm not big on it. I would suggest the explanation for the demise of the UWE is ‘they don’t want to spend any money’ What would UWE have to spend on and how much?
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