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Post by Henbury Gas on Oct 23, 2017 9:02:52 GMT
Exactly this. Is it not obvious to anyone with a shred of intelligence that the current owners are actively seeking to sell? Let's hope so. Let's also hope the UWE ship hasn't sailed quite yet. Sunk by the Captain of the submarine UWE
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Peter Parker
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Post by Peter Parker on Oct 23, 2017 9:10:52 GMT
Exactly this. Is it not obvious to anyone with a shred of intelligence that the current owners are actively seeking to sell? Let's hope so. Let's also hope the UWE ship hasn't sailed quite yet. Assuming we were sold on. I am sure the potential for a UWE deal is still there, but surely any new owners are going to want to negotiate and not just acquiesce to UWE's demands
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Post by PessimistGas on Oct 23, 2017 9:24:16 GMT
Let's hope so. Let's also hope the UWE ship hasn't sailed quite yet. Assuming we were sold on. I am sure the potential for a UWE deal is still there, but surely any new owners are going to want to negotiate and not just acquiesce to UWE's demands No one knows what UWE's demands were or what compromises had been made in the previous negotiations. If we were as close to a deal as we were led to believe (if not, why waste 18 months on it) then maybe it can be revived. Though I'm guessing the AQ's are going to want their £10m back.
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Peter Parker
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Post by Peter Parker on Oct 23, 2017 9:35:45 GMT
Assuming we were sold on. I am sure the potential for a UWE deal is still there, but surely any new owners are going to want to negotiate and not just acquiesce to UWE's demands No one knows what UWE's demands were or what compromises had been made in the previous negotiations. If we were as close to a deal as we were led to believe (if not, why waste 18 months on it) then maybe it can be revived. Though I'm guessing the AQ's are going to want their £10m back. so again, assume the AQ's want their 10m back. Unless the new owners are very generous and just agree to pay that and not expect it back from 1883Ltd, oh and just finance the UWE because they want to they are going to want to get some ROI on a UWE deal (like the Al-Qadi's would need) to get some money back and/or repay investors
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faggotygas
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Post by faggotygas on Oct 23, 2017 9:50:34 GMT
Fair enough. But following from that question, what should the person asking the question say if Hamer replies that the interest is theoretical and just an accounting exercise as they don't take any cash out, so the cash wasn't there to spend on players. BTW, if Hamer does reply that I think he will have been told to say it as I've not seen anything yet to suggest that he's smart enough to think up that reply all by himself. The consolidated statement of cash flows in the 2016 accounts indicates the interest was paid out. The interest waived by the previous owners is included in that statement but nothing to show that interest due to MSP Capital or Dwane Sports was waived. As faggotygas posted a few weeks ago the interest could have been taken out and then loaned back. But what is the logic in charging yourself interest and then loaning yourself money to pay that interest ? Rovers are not likely to be paying tax in the foreseeable future and the corporate tax rate in Jersey is 0%. The owners of clubs as big as Brighton and as small as Forest Green put their money in through equity and/or interest free loans so Steve Hamer needs to explain what makes Rovers owners different. If he is not able to then I think it's a fair assumption that interest payments are the reason why Rovers can't seem to compete in the transfer market against clubs which have much lower attendances. Hi Swiss
The corporate tax rate on Jersey is indeed 0%, but BRFC (1883) Ltd and the FC are registered in the UK, so increasing losses in the UK to generate profit in Jersey is exactly my point.
Regarding profit - a large sale of a player could produce a one-off profit, as may a significant cup run or possibly promotion.
I'm not tax management expert though, so I realise that my argument may have holes, and I'm happy to hear them - I'm just putting it forward as one possible non-sinister scenario.
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Post by PessimistGas on Oct 23, 2017 12:56:39 GMT
The consolidated statement of cash flows in the 2016 accounts indicates the interest was paid out. The interest waived by the previous owners is included in that statement but nothing to show that interest due to MSP Capital or Dwane Sports was waived. As faggotygas posted a few weeks ago the interest could have been taken out and then loaned back. But what is the logic in charging yourself interest and then loaning yourself money to pay that interest ? Rovers are not likely to be paying tax in the foreseeable future and the corporate tax rate in Jersey is 0%. The owners of clubs as big as Brighton and as small as Forest Green put their money in through equity and/or interest free loans so Steve Hamer needs to explain what makes Rovers owners different. If he is not able to then I think it's a fair assumption that interest payments are the reason why Rovers can't seem to compete in the transfer market against clubs which have much lower attendances. Hi Swiss
The corporate tax rate on Jersey is indeed 0%, but BRFC (1883) Ltd and the FC are registered in the UK, so increasing losses in the UK to generate profit in Jersey is exactly my point.
Regarding profit - a large sale of a player could produce a one-off profit, as may a significant cup run or possibly promotion.
I'm not tax management expert though, so I realise that my argument may have holes, and I'm happy to hear them - I'm just putting it forward as one possible non-sinister scenario.
As has already been pointed out, owners up and down the land from Burton, to Forest Green to Brighton put their money in as equity. It's not necessarily sinister, though I for one would love to know exactly what makes us different. I would also like some assurances that any money being taken out of the club in interest is being put back into the club and is not affecting DC's playing budget in any way.
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Post by Henbury Gas on Oct 23, 2017 13:02:49 GMT
Hi Swiss
The corporate tax rate on Jersey is indeed 0%, but BRFC (1883) Ltd and the FC are registered in the UK, so increasing losses in the UK to generate profit in Jersey is exactly my point.
Regarding profit - a large sale of a player could produce a one-off profit, as may a significant cup run or possibly promotion.
I'm not tax management expert though, so I realise that my argument may have holes, and I'm happy to hear them - I'm just putting it forward as one possible non-sinister scenario.
As has already been pointed out, owners up and down the land from Burton, to Forest Green to Brighton put their money in as equity. It's not necessarily sinister, though I for one would love to know exactly what makes us different. I would also like some assurances that any money being taken out of the club in interest is being put back into the club and is not affecting DC's playing budget in any way.As a shareholder you could ask that question and expect a reasonable answer... As a mortal fan you will get Rumour and ITK statements, nothing more
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faggotygas
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Post by faggotygas on Oct 24, 2017 12:17:16 GMT
Hi Swiss
The corporate tax rate on Jersey is indeed 0%, but BRFC (1883) Ltd and the FC are registered in the UK, so increasing losses in the UK to generate profit in Jersey is exactly my point.
Regarding profit - a large sale of a player could produce a one-off profit, as may a significant cup run or possibly promotion.
I'm not tax management expert though, so I realise that my argument may have holes, and I'm happy to hear them - I'm just putting it forward as one possible non-sinister scenario.
As has already been pointed out, owners up and down the land from Burton, to Forest Green to Brighton put their money in as equity. It's not necessarily sinister, though I for one would love to know exactly what makes us different. I would also like some assurances that any money being taken out of the club in interest is being put back into the club and is not affecting DC's playing budget in any way. A fair question. I'd love to hear the answer too, but I'm not assuming that something nasty is going on (while being cautious that there could be...)
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Oct 24, 2017 12:46:16 GMT
I feel badly let down by the owner of the club hani. Lots of broken promises on budgets,UWE and the training ground up and running by 2018-2019 all a bloody mirage! Now we have a fan base expecting a top league one team when its more likely to have a badly struggling one. Whats the point of taking over a struggling football club and not throwing serious money at it? I wish the owners would just quietly fade away back to making millions in banking. Feel sorry for darrell clarke as hes becoming just another struggling manager waiting for the sack as the support start to turn on him as all "fans" do in the modern era. Higgs would have delivered a ground with the sainsbury deal at any time from the start of the new millennium until very recent changes in shoppers habits so at least in part was unlucky. The present owners are right up there in a mini league with the oystens,venkys and the leyton orient lunatic for me. I would have much preferred not having my hopes raised that we were gunning for bristol city with a state of the art stadium and a category 2 academy,yes remember that? a cat 2 academy!! Rubbish and cheap talk. Name all the chairmen of bristol rovers that have done more for the football club than harry dolman or steve lansdown have at city. 1] ? 2]? 3] ? 4]? Far too soon to be even mentioning the Al Qadi family with those you have. Maybe time to ramp back on the anger and give it some patience, for now. I too have my reservations and especially after reading swissgas posts but I am not throwing toys out of my proverbial prom just yet. Fact is, none of us know what hurdles have had to be overcome and if anything is standing in the way of developments. Wael has voiced his ire at how slowly things progress in Bristol. Maybe the biggest of all problems could be battles with various groups. I find it a bit distasteful that you are drawing comparisons to the names you have. Would you rather have Higgs back ?
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Oct 24, 2017 13:11:36 GMT
once the uwe failed im afraid for me this is only going one way, the family will eventually move on, re-developed mem ? cant see it, we will for the forseeable be a div 1 team winning and losing a few, i fully expect DC to move on too, [ of his own accord], hes ambitious and its not gonna happen here imo Typical, I saw this happening when we dropped out of the league and I said that we could be in league one and we would still have the moaners. Historically we have been a 3rd tier club but now we are somehow meant to be splashing cash and gunning for the prem. some of my best memories are from when we were in the 3rd tier. It’s obvious the owners are not billionaires and that there has been a change in leadership within the family & if the UWE was not right for the club, in how the monies were divided up then it makes sense to leave it. In my view it’s the transfer window that changed much and has seen us see our team not perform to the standards we had become used to, when promoted twice. I will leave any judgment until after January. My own view is that we are now very predictable and that IS down to the manager. He is the one who said we woukd see up to 14 new players in but that never happened and he let oirmown true winger go. Sorry that I don’t buy into this keep the faith stuff but I think it’s quite obvious that DC made some poor decisions. Spending 300K on Nicholls has to be seen as the biggest of those decisions. Either he is not being played where he likes to play or he is just not good enough or both. I’m afraid that you cannot rely on anyone to keep digging up diamonds from non league and then expect success in this league and higher up. My honest appraisal is that we got promoted too quickly for the owners. I think even they got caught out with the success and were planning on building up with the added burden of over expentant fans. Yes, we should think big but also be realistic in our expectations. We are now at our historical level & not doing well at this level. We need to consolidate our position here before we can realistically think of promotion and I also think DC made a rod for his own back in telling us that we can expect a top 6 finish.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Oct 24, 2017 13:19:53 GMT
I agree that DC is ambitious but until he proves himself beyond this level and in his ability to sign quality players then he is just another League 1 Manager. I hope he can prove with us that he is a top League 1 Manager but his summer dealings make me doubt this until proven otherwise. I am not convinced that he has the knowledge of the higher Leagues to succeed at that level but only time will tell. Nail on the head Steve & I totally agree. He now has to distance himself from trying to make everyone happy and take a look at himself & some of the decisions he makes. My belief is that he could be a great manager but he is too young to have made the contacts needed within the game. If anyone could do with a wise and connected man beside him then it’s DC but I don’t see him taking that well or at all. It really is a different ball game in this league & higher. We simply cannot be successful if we rigidly stick to this evolution line. We need both evolution AND revolution.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 13:40:17 GMT
once the uwe failed im afraid for me this is only going one way, the family will eventually move on, re-developed mem ? cant see it, we will for the forseeable be a div 1 team winning and losing a few, i fully expect DC to move on too, [ of his own accord], hes ambitious and its not gonna happen here imo Typical, I saw this happening when we dropped out of the league and I said that we could be in league one and we would still have the moaners. Historically we have been a 3rd tier club but now we are somehow meant to be splashing cash and gunning for the prem. some of my best memories are from when we were in the 3rd tier. It’s obvious the owners are not billionaires and that there has been a change in leadership within the family & if the UWE was not right for the club, in how the monies were divided up then it makes sense to leave it. In my view it’s the transfer window that changed much and has seen us see our team not perform to the standards we had become used to, when promoted twice. I will leave any judgment until after January. My own view is that we are now very predictable and that IS down to the manager. He is the one who said we woukd see up to 14 new players in but that never happened and he let oirmown true winger go. Sorry that I don’t buy into this keep the faith stuff but I think it’s quite obvious that DC made some poor decisions. Spending 300K on Nicholls has to be seen as the biggest of those decisions. Either he is not being played where he likes to play or he is just not good enough or both. I’m afraid that you cannot rely on anyone to keep digging up diamonds from non league and then expect success in this league and higher up. My honest appraisal is that we got promoted too quickly for the owners. I think even they got caught out with the success and were planning on building up with the added burden of over expentant fans. Yes, we should think big but also be realistic in our expectations. We are now at our historical level & not doing well at this level. We need to consolidate our position here before we can realistically think of promotion and I also think DC made a rod for his own back in telling us that we can expect a top 6 finish. how do you see my post as a ;moan; ?
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,263
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Post by kingswood Polak on Oct 24, 2017 13:56:46 GMT
Typical, I saw this happening when we dropped out of the league and I said that we could be in league one and we would still have the moaners. Historically we have been a 3rd tier club but now we are somehow meant to be splashing cash and gunning for the prem. some of my best memories are from when we were in the 3rd tier. It’s obvious the owners are not billionaires and that there has been a change in leadership within the family & if the UWE was not right for the club, in how the monies were divided up then it makes sense to leave it. In my view it’s the transfer window that changed much and has seen us see our team not perform to the standards we had become used to, when promoted twice. I will leave any judgment until after January. My own view is that we are now very predictable and that IS down to the manager. He is the one who said we woukd see up to 14 new players in but that never happened and he let oirmown true winger go. Sorry that I don’t buy into this keep the faith stuff but I think it’s quite obvious that DC made some poor decisions. Spending 300K on Nicholls has to be seen as the biggest of those decisions. Either he is not being played where he likes to play or he is just not good enough or both. I’m afraid that you cannot rely on anyone to keep digging up diamonds from non league and then expect success in this league and higher up. My honest appraisal is that we got promoted too quickly for the owners. I think even they got caught out with the success and were planning on building up with the added burden of over expentant fans. Yes, we should think big but also be realistic in our expectations. We are now at our historical level & not doing well at this level. We need to consolidate our position here before we can realistically think of promotion and I also think DC made a rod for his own back in telling us that we can expect a top 6 finish. how do you see my post as a ;moan; ? Sorry, i should habe not used the quote button and habe got too used to doing so. It was meant in general. Please accept my apologies
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 14:01:26 GMT
how do you see my post as a ;moan; ? Sorry, i should habe not used the quote button and habe got too used to doing so. It was meant in general. Please accept my apologies no worries
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 20:57:05 GMT
I feel badly let down by the owner of the club hani. Lots of broken promises on budgets,UWE and the training ground up and running by 2018-2019 all a bloody mirage! Now we have a fan base expecting a top league one team when its more likely to have a badly struggling one. Whats the point of taking over a struggling football club and not throwing serious money at it? I wish the owners would just quietly fade away back to making millions in banking. Feel sorry for darrell clarke as hes becoming just another struggling manager waiting for the sack as the support start to turn on him as all "fans" do in the modern era. Higgs would have delivered a ground with the sainsbury deal at any time from the start of the new millennium until very recent changes in shoppers habits so at least in part was unlucky. The present owners are right up there in a mini league with the oystens,venkys and the leyton orient lunatic for me. I would have much preferred not having my hopes raised that we were gunning for bristol city with a state of the art stadium and a category 2 academy,yes remember that? a cat 2 academy!! Rubbish and cheap talk. Name all the chairmen of bristol rovers that have done more for the football club than harry dolman or steve lansdown have at city. 1] ? 2]? 3] ? 4]? Far too soon to be even mentioning the Al Qadi family with those you have. Maybe time to ramp back on the anger and give it some patience, for now. I too have my reservations and especially after reading swissgas posts but I am not throwing toys out of my proverbial prom just yet. Fact is, none of us know what hurdles have had to be overcome and if anything is standing in the way of developments. Wael has voiced his ire at how slowly things progress in Bristol. Maybe the biggest of all problems could be battles with various groups. I find it a bit distasteful that you are drawing comparisons to the names you have. Would you rather have Higgs back ? Yes true,the names mentioned have badly damaged their clubs and our owner has not so it was a bit ott . Our owners dwayne sports need to deliver something worthwhile soon for me but i seriously doubt that they will.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 21:11:48 GMT
Far too soon to be even mentioning the Al Qadi family with those you have. Maybe time to ramp back on the anger and give it some patience, for now. I too have my reservations and especially after reading swissgas posts but I am not throwing toys out of my proverbial prom just yet. Fact is, none of us know what hurdles have had to be overcome and if anything is standing in the way of developments. Wael has voiced his ire at how slowly things progress in Bristol. Maybe the biggest of all problems could be battles with various groups. I find it a bit distasteful that you are drawing comparisons to the names you have. Would you rather have Higgs back ? Yes true,the names mentioned have badly damaged their clubs and our owner has not so it was a bit ott . Our owners dwayne sports need to deliver something worthwhile soon for me but i seriously doubt that they will. How can they do that quickly when everything involves planning permission?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 22:01:51 GMT
Yes true,the names mentioned have badly damaged their clubs and our owner has not so it was a bit ott . Our owners dwayne sports need to deliver something worthwhile soon for me but i seriously doubt that they will. How can they do that quickly when everything involves planning permission? "the landing lights are on" uwe "up and running at least in part for 2018-19" the training ground "top 6 budget" Dont bother talking rubbish would help would it not? City built there ground at the current site in no time at all so obviously we will too? Fed up with cheap talk without action or any worthwhile communication.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 22:41:56 GMT
Yes true,the names mentioned have badly damaged their clubs and our owner has not so it was a bit ott . Our owners dwayne sports need to deliver something worthwhile soon for me but i seriously doubt that they will. How can they do that quickly when everything involves planning permission? Sticking some dosh into an account for the manager to use doesn't need PP. The rest of it; UWE had PP, they let that slip through their fingers and didn't give any kind of explanation that I could understand. The training ground, what Hamer has said so far makes no sense to me so I'm far from hopeful on that front. Now we are supposed to have faith that they are going to develop the existing ground when their build plan is one that every other study has rejected on cost grounds. I'm not sure what faith is exactly, maybe gullibility, maybe believing things on bad evidence, either way, I'm not big on it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 2:50:45 GMT
How can they do that quickly when everything involves planning permission? Sticking some dosh into an account for the manager to use doesn't need PP. The rest of it; UWE had PP, they let that slip through their fingers and didn't give any kind of explanation that I could understand. The training ground, what Hamer has said so far makes no sense to me so I'm far from hopeful on that front. Now we are supposed to have faith that they are going to develop the existing ground when their build plan is one that every other study has rejected on cost grounds. I'm not sure what faith is exactly, maybe gullibility, maybe believing things on bad evidence, either way, I'm not big on it. Everything you say is pretty accurate. However we, the fans, do not know the reasoning behind decisions made. Hence the idle speculation and faux outrage. Perhaps they have done exactly what some demanded in the past. Points which I think you may have argued for in the past. 1. Stabilised the finances by creating a fully funded working capital facility 2. Identified projects that required investment capital and evaluated them accordingly. Would they bother with point 2 if sources of investment were not identified and known? Doubt it. Would these guys have provided up to £10M of working capital unless they saw an exit route to get their capital back? I doubt it. So, although I do accept their "expectations management's has not been great, from a pure commercial perspective things do have a certain logic. Just a perspective
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Post by Henbury Gas on Oct 26, 2017 6:21:17 GMT
Sticking some dosh into an account for the manager to use doesn't need PP. The rest of it; UWE had PP, they let that slip through their fingers and didn't give any kind of explanation that I could understand. The training ground, what Hamer has said so far makes no sense to me so I'm far from hopeful on that front. Now we are supposed to have faith that they are going to develop the existing ground when their build plan is one that every other study has rejected on cost grounds. I'm not sure what faith is exactly, maybe gullibility, maybe believing things on bad evidence, either way, I'm not big on it. Everything you say is pretty accurate. However we, the fans, do not know the reasoning behind decisions made. Hence the idle speculation and faux outrage. Perhaps they have done exactly what some demanded in the past. Points which I think you may have argued for in the past. 1. Stabilised the finances by creating a fully funded working capital facility 2. Identified projects that required investment capital and evaluated them accordingly. Would they bother with point 2 if sources of investment were not identified and known? Doubt it. Would these guys have provided up to £10M of working capital unless they saw an exit route to get their capital back? I doubt it. So, although I do accept their "expectations management's has not been great, from a pure commercial perspective things do have a certain logic. Just a perspective Please Please Please cut out the logical thinking, people on here will have nothing to moan about
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