warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,433
|
Post by warehamgas on Aug 1, 2017 15:56:05 GMT
Whilst I understand the point you're making padstow I'm afraid money is the key to lasting and sustainable success in today's football. Without it we may gain some success and even gain promotion but with the conditions the EFL have about grounds in the Championship and having to compete against foreign owners with money to burn in that league it would be a fleeting success I think. Brighton, Reading, Swansea have gained and sustained success on the back of new stadiums and being very well run clubs. Bournemouth have done it with a very, very rich owner and the best young manager in the country. But you are right about success at the end of the day being measured on success on the field. It has to be that because otherwise BRFC would have gone to the wall years ago. It's why I always disagree when people say we have to get things right before we go up. If we did that we would wait for ever! It's what we've always done, get the right players, develop a tightly knit group and fight against the odds. We have to take every opportunity to get success on the field. DC has no control over ground and other infrastructure stuff. He has to concentrate on getting the right players, playing the right way and getting success. Then if we go up we do our best and if we come down we regroup and go again. It's always been the Rovers way. We do need a new ground but we can't use not having one as an excuse why we don't have success. At the end of the day on 46 games a year we turn up and hope we can outplay the opposition more times than not. That can't be done without money and lots of it. To get sustained and lasting success we will need loads of it! Perhaps that's unfortunate but I'm aftraid it's the modern football world. UTG! Just to throw something into the pot one of the biggest names in post war british football with a billionaire owner massive fan base couldn't sustain premiership status a couple of years ago and despite making large offers for a number of players are struggling to attract them to the club even though they have regained premiership membership,but for how long? A new stadium and infrastructure does not put points on the board and paying large fees for players does not guarantee that they will be a success I hope I'm right in presuming you mean Newcastle. Yes they have all the advantages that you mention and those have not put points on the board and again there are no guarantees. But the bloke running it is a complete fruitcake for whom players don't appear to want to play for. Poor Benitez it must be tough trying to create something in the PL with that owner! Its not the same I know but the club never appears to be well run and as Darlington it's not well run. Newcastle could get away with it because of their fans but Darlington couldn't and went to the wall. I guess to answer the implication I would say that you are right about a good stadium not being a guarantee but if a club is badly run then it is badly run and nothing will overcome that irrespective of a new stadium or not and those examples are more about a club being badly run not having a big stadium. UTG!
|
|
brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,293
|
Post by brizzle on Aug 1, 2017 16:13:23 GMT
Just to throw something into the pot one of the biggest names in post war british football with a billionaire owner massive fan base couldn't sustain premiership status a couple of years ago and despite making large offers for a number of players are struggling to attract them to the club even though they have regained premiership membership,but for how long? A new stadium and infrastructure does not put points on the board and paying large fees for players does not guarantee that they will be a success I hope I'm right in presuming you mean Newcastle. Yes they have all the advantages that you mention and those have not put points on the board and again there are no guarantees. But the bloke running it is a complete fruitcake for whom players don't appear to want to play for. Poor Benitez it must be tough trying to create something in the PL with that owner! Its not the same I know but the club never appears to be well run and as Darlington it's not well run. Newcastle could get away with it because of their fans but Darlington couldn't and went to the wall. I guess to answer the implication I would say that you are right about a good stadium not being a guarantee but if a club is badly run then it is badly run and nothing will overcome that irrespective of a new stadium or not and those examples are more about a club being badly run not having a big stadium. UTG! Well, if it is Newcastle United then it must be said that they are sadly inherent failures. It's true that they have had their moments, but considering the money that has been pumped into them over the decades, and the support that they have always enjoyed, then it's fair to say that they have disappointed. In fact the epitome of a (still) sleeping giant.
|
|
kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by kingswood Polak on Aug 1, 2017 16:59:26 GMT
Absolutely spot on. Great post Name a club with a 12k or less capacity ground that has sustained a position in the Championship or higher, for more than a few years, in the last 20 Could name a few with higher capacity. You really are dreaming if you truly believe we will get 15K turn up in any new stadium. You only have to look at the demographic of our fans now, to see it's an increasingly ageing group and we are doing little to nothing to encourage new fans The city have got miles ahead of us. Only a successful team can bring in that support imo
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2017 17:07:54 GMT
But can you guarantee that a new stadium will bring more fans? the answer is no you cannot you only have to look at darlington and can you guarantee that we will get in increased revenue from said new stadium don't forget we are in competition with ashton gate that has a long tradition of attracting outside finance and they wont sit back and give rovers a free run at any outside sources of revenue so the claims are suppositional at best and pie in the sky at worst.The only guaranteed income is through the turnstiles and income derived via the same sources as we have now Of course you are right about no guarantees. You can never guarantee anything (apart from ex players scoring against us!!) and a new stadium would be no guarantee if you are badly run. Darlington were run ineptly and built to massage a rich crook's ego and we all know where that led. But for every Darlington there is a Swansea, Reading, Brighton and even Bournemouth, although no new ground, so I think to point at Darlington might be stretching the point. Although you can't forecast exactly what would happen if we had a new stadium I would be confident that the new owners would be running the club very well but in a new stadium, and have a much better chance of generating extra income that would make any promotion much more sustainable. What I would like to see and would expect it to happen if we had a new stadium the whole match day experience would grow and the club would start to create extra income streams on match days as well as those on non-match days. And when it comes down to it we can't really say we don't want a new stadium because look what happened to Darlington when they had one, it doesn't work like that. UTG! Swansea,Reading and Brighton have large catchment areas. Lets be honest Rovers are the smaller club in a 2 club city,now that doesn't matter to Rovers followers (6000 watched Rovers play non league football rather than go to AG) but why would new supporters choose to go to see Rovers just because of a new stadium ? I think that lower league clubs will be in for a tough times in 5 to 10 years their supporters average age is quite old and probably more older supporters die each season than younger ones replace them. Going to a game takes up time and money, lots of people seem content to watch higher quality games on TV rather than attend their local teams matches.
|
|
george
Joined: March 2016
Posts: 63
|
Post by george on Aug 1, 2017 17:22:13 GMT
But can you guarantee that a new stadium will bring more fans? the answer is no you cannot you only have to look at darlington and can you guarantee that we will get in increased revenue from said new stadium don't forget we are in competition with ashton gate that has a long tradition of attracting outside finance and they wont sit back and give rovers a free run at any outside sources of revenue so the claims are suppositional at best and pie in the sky at worst.The only guaranteed income is through the turnstiles and income derived via the same sources as we have now Can't guarantee a new stadium will bring more fans but if we go up imagine playing the bigger teams at home. If we had a bigger stadium we would be able to maximise the large away support from these teams plus the bigger home support as well = bigger revenue / hopefully better players . And yes we could challenge City on the outside source front. Anyway what has this got to do with Mathew Godden signing ?
|
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,433
|
Post by warehamgas on Aug 1, 2017 17:47:38 GMT
All good points trymer. But I guess that if you accept things as they are and don't challenge the current status quo then clubs wouldn't overtake other clubs. AFC WIm wouldn't exist. Reading would have allowed themselves to be taken over by Maxwell's Oxford 20 years ago and become Thames Valley Royals. Instead they built a new ground and became the bigger club. Swansea would have accepted that they would always be a bit smaller than Cardiff and not try and be the best team in Wales. Bournemouth wouldn't be in the PL, they would have accepted they were a smaller club than others now in the Championship and put up with it. FGR wouldnt be in the league and would never have thought they could beat a team like Tranmere to clinch a place in the league. They would have settled for a place in the Southern League playing Dorchester and Taunton as the size of Nailsworth would warrant. Like you trymer it doesn't worry me that ***t are bigger than us, I wouldn't have supported Rovers for 51 years if it did. Why would new fans come to watch us? That seems to me to be up to us to make it a more attractive proposition, to make the match day an enjoyable family occasion, to try and attract new people, obviously play good football at an affordable price. Surely we will show some ambition and look to change the status quo and not just accept that it's always been like this so it must stay like this. Blimey there's enough threads on this forum about the other lot to make me think wouldn't it be great to reverse that. I don't think Wael and the Al Qadis would have bought Rovers if he thought we were going to piddle about in League 2. Football needs ambitious clubs who want to grow. After seeing some false dawns over the past 40 years I don't think it should be an impossible dream for us to have a new ground ... eventually! UTG!
|
|
|
Post by laughinggas on Aug 1, 2017 18:45:43 GMT
Over 3,000 turned up at the open day, I assume there were a lot of youngsters there. This gives the impression that there is more optimism about the club and the younger generation are interested.
|
|
faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
|
Post by faggotygas on Aug 2, 2017 7:32:43 GMT
He's been looking at selling 50% of his stake.
And this kind of confirms my point - even with a very well run club, with a good model, they still need a bigger stadium to be stable.
A huge difference between offloading and seeking further external investment. I wasn't doubting the point regarding the need for a new stadium though. Brentford have bought, and sold wisely. It's a good model to look at if we are the achieve parity if promotion is achieved. We're much better looking at Brentford than Burton as we're miles off being as sustainable as them. Agreed. Brentford is a club with good management, and unprecidented success, but still has to be propped up with massive cash injections. That's our best scenario, without a higher income.
|
|
faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
|
Post by faggotygas on Aug 2, 2017 7:39:59 GMT
But can you guarantee that a new stadium will bring more fans? the answer is no you cannot you only have to look at darlington and can you guarantee that we will get in increased revenue from said new stadium don't forget we are in competition with ashton gate that has a long tradition of attracting outside finance and they wont sit back and give rovers a free run at any outside sources of revenue so the claims are suppositional at best and pie in the sky at worst.The only guaranteed income is through the turnstiles and income derived via the same sources as we have now You can't guarantee it, but statistically its far more likely. The vast majority of clubs that have either upgraded their stadium or built a new one, have seen increased attendances afterwards, regardless of success or not on the pitch.
Darlington is always dragged out, but that was a mental situation of over-spending financed by high interest debt. Oh, and btw, their average attendance jumped from 3,312 to 5,023 in the year they moved to the new ground!
|
|
faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
|
Post by faggotygas on Aug 2, 2017 7:55:14 GMT
Name a club with a 12k or less capacity ground that has sustained a position in the Championship or higher, for more than a few years, in the last 20 Could name a few with higher capacity. You really are dreaming if you truly believe we will get 15K turn up in any new stadium. You only have to look at the demographic of our fans now, to see it's an increasingly ageing group and we are doing little to nothing to encourage new fans The city have got miles ahead of us. Only a successful team can bring in that support imo But that's the point of a new stadium! Better facilities encourage new fans. Staying in the delapidated Mem, that's doing nothing to encourage new fans.
It doesn't matter how successful we are, in the Mem we can only increase our attendance by around 20%. That still wouldn't be enough to sustain Championship football in the long term - average revenue in the Championship is £23.2m, compared to £5.7m in League one. Accept our current ground, then you are accepting that we will only ever be a league one team occasionally flirting with the levels above and below.
|
|
|
Post by tanksfull on Aug 2, 2017 8:22:29 GMT
But surely you must agree that at our level, the biggest factor with regards to income is the number of tickets we sell. The Mem is 61st in the list of ground capacities in England, ignoring Wembley. So purely based on that, our natural position is towards the bottom of League 1. Even given that, how many times did we sell out the mem ? It's not just about capacity though. Would you invest £100,000's in the current structure of the Mem? Without doubt the ticketing system needs updating but... Until the structure is sorted it would be daft to invest in it.
|
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,433
|
Post by warehamgas on Aug 2, 2017 9:36:24 GMT
Could name a few with higher capacity. You really are dreaming if you truly believe we will get 15K turn up in any new stadium. You only have to look at the demographic of our fans now, to see it's an increasingly ageing group and we are doing little to nothing to encourage new fans The city have got miles ahead of us. Only a successful team can bring in that support imo But that's the point of a new stadium! Better facilities encourage new fans. Staying in the delapidated Mem, that's doing nothing to encourage new fans.
It doesn't matter how successful we are, in the Mem we can only increase our attendance by around 20%. That still wouldn't be enough to sustain Championship football in the long term - average revenue in the Championship is £23.2m, compared to £5.7m in League one. Accept our current ground, then you are accepting that we will only ever be a league one team occasionally flirting with the levels above and below.
Pretty much this faggoty. And I don't think Wael etc. bought the club to do that. I know some Everton fans who think they're in the know and they tell me that the Arab owners of Man City spent some time looking around for a PL club to buy and were seriously looking at two, Man City and Everton. In the end they decided on City because the Commonwealth Games had given the new ground to them and they could see how they could turn it into a world class club. They broke into the top four have had regular Champions League football. Everton have not. How it could have been different for Everton had they been in the position Man City were! Very different to Rovers I know but one thing is the same, stay at the Mem, accept the status quo and we remain a league 1 club with perhaps a season or two higher but unsustained because our better players would be attracted away by "bigger" clubs with better facilities. Btw this is no way a criticism of our owners or those who love the Mem it is the real life situation we are in. UTG!
|
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,433
|
Post by warehamgas on Aug 2, 2017 9:40:21 GMT
ps Sorry gas999 some of my posts have moved a long way away from your op. However they are linked because if we are ever going to pay the inflated transfer fees being asked for what is essentially a "one-season wonder" so far and the high wages you indicate he wants then how this thread has developed is relevant. UTG!
|
|
brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,293
|
Post by brizzle on Aug 2, 2017 15:11:20 GMT
ps Sorry gas999 some of my posts have moved a long way away from your op. However they are linked because if we are ever going to pay the inflated transfer fees being asked for what is essentially a "one-season wonder" so far and the high wages you indicate he wants then how this thread has developed is relevant. UTG! That's all true enough warehamgas. Plus I doubt that anyone fan or the club itself, wants to go back and re-visit our Billy Big 'Ead era when we signed up nonentities on long, well paid contracts. We have achieved so much more since we were forced to abandon that philosophy, and return to a more common sense approach to managing our business. I much prefer what we have now, and if by bringing in players like Matty Godden on a reported wage of £9,000 a week is out of our range . . . then so be it. Let him look elsewhere would be my advice.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 17:06:07 GMT
Just to throw something into the pot one of the biggest names in post war british football with a billionaire owner massive fan base couldn't sustain premiership status a couple of years ago and despite making large offers for a number of players are struggling to attract them to the club even though they have regained premiership membership,but for how long? A new stadium and infrastructure does not put points on the board and paying large fees for players does not guarantee that they will be a success They sound badly run.
Look, if you look at any statistical analysis over a decend period of years, the amount a club forks out on wages has a strong correlation with average league position. There are, of course a few exceptions, mostly exceptionally badly run clubs.
That is a generalisation that cannot be proved by rumour and speculation
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 17:07:51 GMT
So how did we manage to get promotion in 89/90 at Twerton in a non league stadium with limited spectators on paying rent winning promotion from this division with a very small squad no backroom staff and a side that cost about 80k Well, for a starters, there wasn't such a big financial difference between the divisions back then. And, for finishers, I'm not say we couldn't get promotion as a one-off, but we certainly wouldn't be able to sustain the position in the long term at the Mem as it is. But if the club is as well run as you say it is now then your argument is fallacious
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 17:13:49 GMT
Go on then, Padstow,who? Only what I'd call big clubs I can think of are Leeds & Aston Villa but they're still Championship. Got a billionaire owner? Chelsea? Man City? Do you mean Newcastle? Always seemed to have been erratic. Corrections but Newcastle match the criteria for success and sustainability that you are all talking about.big stadium.wealthy owner massive gates no success that is what I am driving at success is measured by points not infrastructure
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 17:16:03 GMT
But that's the point of a new stadium! Better facilities encourage new fans. Staying in the delapidated Mem, that's doing nothing to encourage new fans.
It doesn't matter how successful we are, in the Mem we can only increase our attendance by around 20%. That still wouldn't be enough to sustain Championship football in the long term - average revenue in the Championship is £23.2m, compared to £5.7m in League one. Accept our current ground, then you are accepting that we will only ever be a league one team occasionally flirting with the levels above and below.
Pretty much this faggoty. And I don't think Wael etc. bought the club to do that. I know some Everton fans who think they're in the know and they tell me that the Arab owners of Man City spent some time looking around for a PL club to buy and were seriously looking at two, Man City and Everton. In the end they decided on City because the Commonwealth Games had given the new ground to them and they could see how they could turn it into a world class club. They broke into the top four have had regular Champions League football. Everton have not. How it could have been different for Everton had they been in the position Man City were! Very different to Rovers I know but one thing is the same, stay at the Mem, accept the status quo and we remain a league 1 club with perhaps a season or two higher but unsustained because our better players would be attracted away by "bigger" clubs with better facilities. Btw this is no way a criticism of our owners or those who love the Mem it is the real life situation we are in. UTG! Fans who know? Very unlikely more probably fans who think they know based on rumour
|
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,433
|
Post by warehamgas on Aug 2, 2017 18:35:13 GMT
That's why I said "think they're...." But I think it was also mentioned in the press at the time. Anyway, the point was to progress I think we will need a new ground. UTG!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 18:49:18 GMT
That's why I said "think they're...." But I think it was also mentioned in the press at the time. Anyway, the point was to progress I think we will need a new ground. UTG! As very few on here rate the local press and it's news why should you put any credence to reports in other papers
|
|