TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,475
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Post by TaiwanGas on May 16, 2021 13:00:07 GMT
Sadly there isnt a list in the guidance of what would constitute serious injury however i would assume it wiuod be more then teeth based on sentencing ive seen Surely the Offences against The Persons Act specify each level of assault and the injury to warrant each level. So a shove is common assault, a punch with no injury battery, bruising and minor cuts ABH, broken bones and other serious injury is wounding or GBH, and a clear intention to inflict this takes the stakes up another level. Plus, I believe, the CPS always charge one lower than the outline case to encourage a guilty verdict, all other factors being taken into account. A broken tooth would perhaps warrant ABH, but would normally carry aCommon Assault charge, hardly custodial sentence territory. Barton’s position as a manager at the time should have no bearing on that, and why should it? You may be right Towngas, on it's own it may not be a custodial sentence if found guilty. Generally, if you are a first-time offender, the court is likely to be more lenient with you however if you have repeated instances of violent behavior, it is likely that you will face harsher penalties.
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Post by CabbagePatchBlues on May 16, 2021 13:01:04 GMT
Do you honestly believe lawyers were consulted? I think we targeted one person for the job and all other interested persons were ignored. Contracts are quite straight forward with provision to add or delete clauses. They are then registered with the FA. Probably not but you'd have thought it was common sense to get some legal advice before employing Barton, you can just see this summer being another disaster if we have to employ yet another manager this year. It'll be another disaster anyway with that violent twat in charge.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on May 16, 2021 13:07:10 GMT
Because i spent two decades being involved in sentencing and have the sentencing guidance manual. Categories 1 and 2 are very serious injuries where as this based on the injury disclosed by the alleged victim is a broken tooth as the result of a push. The higher categories refer to elements of planning and not an impulsive or reactive shove as described by the victim. As i say i was anxious as i remember the sentencing for those city players. We were all asked to do the court reports in my office but we were all gasheads so it got shunted around. They were looking at unpaid work but as it was affray i believe the judge threw the book at them. Ive read the guidance all the way through, there is no custody option Are you certain it was just a broken tooth, as the actual injuries sustained by Stendel have always been surrounded with a bit of mystery, and we all now know how good Barton is at spinning the news in his favour. What was Harvey referring to when he said he was "stunned" by the incident, as I doubt that two managers having a minor scuffle is that rare. The suggestions immediately after the incident were that Barton head butted Stendel and knocked out (loosened) his two front teeth leading to him requiring dental treatment, I wouldn't be surprised if that is also suggested when the trial gets underway. Plus this alleged video, which a fair few journos have referred to but not of late. It seems that much is, purposely, being kept quiet. When this happened, it was mentioned a lot. My understanding is that the EFL had seen it. As always, I could be wrong
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TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,475
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Post by TaiwanGas on May 16, 2021 13:14:09 GMT
it's a bit unusual, having someone who knows what they are talking about, on here Isn’t it just. A great shame LJG no longer is active here, unless dinsdale had that username ? Not accusing anyone of anything btw Dinsdale in an earlier thread informed that he was Probation Gas previously, LJG is still missing, I rated his posts!.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on May 16, 2021 13:16:48 GMT
Because i spent two decades being involved in sentencing and have the sentencing guidance manual. Categories 1 and 2 are very serious injuries where as this based on the injury disclosed by the alleged victim is a broken tooth as the result of a push. The higher categories refer to elements of planning and not an impulsive or reactive shove as described by the victim. As i say i was anxious as i remember the sentencing for those city players. We were all asked to do the court reports in my office but we were all gasheads so it got shunted around. They were looking at unpaid work but as it was affray i believe the judge threw the book at them. Ive read the guidance all the way through, there is no custody option he was previously jailed for six months. I’ve listened carefully to your guidelines, what sort of late night town centre shuffle meant six months? Taking a weapon with him? Maybe it can’t be as simple as guidelines for a person head butting a persons teeth out, if these are leaders and role models and on duty at the time? manager on manager is a complete no no, can it be a greater magnitude to society than some drunk doing it in a taxi q? is there anything in guidelines which says celebrities will always get treated as though they are a ordinary member of public? Jury’s soft on celebs the judges can be harsh with the sentencing. Maybe in the judges mind time and again, too soft on celebrity here and the media is going to go ape s***. anyway, apart from dragging our clubs reputation even lower, the court case is immaterial, if he did headbutt the teeth out then Barton is finished at Rovers with a lengthily FA EFL ban. BIG QUESTION IS are the board actively planning for life without him whilst remaining supportive publicly? Realistically they have to be seriously considering a new manager in a ban scenario don’t they? Rovers, plan ? 😂😂😂. As the song goes, that’ll be the day.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on May 16, 2021 13:23:15 GMT
Sadly there isnt a list in the guidance of what would constitute serious injury however i would assume it wiuod be more then teeth based on sentencing ive seen Question for you dinsdale. If you are convinced it's 'only' a category 3 ABH, why would it go to Crown Court? Surely Magistrates Court deals with cases where a non-custodial sentence, or relatively short sentences are appropriate? Happy to bow to your far superior knowledge on the subject! If Mr Barton is found guilty, even with a non-custodial sentence, then the EFL will still have their verdict to give. I'll say it again. I have faith in the judiciary and (to a lesser extent) the EFL to deliver the correct verdicts - and take it from there. As PHE states, it's pretty incomprehensible that Bristol Rovers have willingly put themselves in this position. Each of us, when facing magistrates, are asked if we are happy and accept the case to be heard by a magistrates court. You have the choice to ask for your case to be heard by the crown. At least, that was the case some 30 years ago. knowing what I know, now, I’d have taken my case to be heard by the crown. All it takes is conflicting witness statements and it can be thrown out, on a technicality
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on May 16, 2021 13:31:44 GMT
Isn’t it just. A great shame LJG no longer is active here, unless dinsdale had that username ? Not accusing anyone of anything btw Dinsdale in an earlier thread informed that he was Probation Gas previously, LJG is still missing, I rated his posts!. Although we disagreed on boxing, I enjoyed his input too. Not happy with Barton’s appointment is an understatement, think he’s gone to ground on the other place due to this
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2021 13:42:52 GMT
it's a bit unusual, having someone who knows what they are talking about, on here Isn’t it just. A great shame LJG no longer is active here, unless dinsdale had that username ? Not accusing anyone of anything btw I know Dinsdale and the two are not the same.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on May 16, 2021 13:55:06 GMT
Isn’t it just. A great shame LJG no longer is active here, unless dinsdale had that username ? Not accusing anyone of anything btw I know Dinsdale and the two are not the same. As i said, no accusation, just thinking/writing what I was thinking. I’ve had many chats with dinsdale although not in the flesh and during Higgs time. No harm nor sleight intended
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2021 14:08:36 GMT
Wasn't a supporter banned for life by the club for being caught on club CCTV throwing some form of small missile / stone at Macclesfield supporters, no Police involvement from memory, the club just banned him? For sure. Many others had life bans too, one for having an unopened can of beer on his person. Football laws are extreme and more in line with terrorist laws than common law. We lost some stalwarts support. This is fact I think that was kind of the point I was trying to make. There are things which may either be ignored or you may just get 'words of advice' from the Police if you did them in a City centre on a Saturday night which will get you in all sorts of trouble if you were to do them in or around a football stadium on a match day. But we'll know soon enough, the press will be all over this when the case starts, assuming it actually gets that far, and if it does we'll have the national humiliation of quite possibly the lead story in the sports segment of the news being about 'Barton's Bristol Rovers' and a court case. Just flipping fantastic!
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Post by emperorsuperbus on May 16, 2021 17:36:17 GMT
he was previously jailed for six months. I’ve listened carefully to your guidelines, what sort of late night town centre shuffle meant six months? Taking a weapon with him? Maybe it can’t be as simple as guidelines for a person head butting a persons teeth out, if these are leaders and role models and on duty at the time? manager on manager is a complete no no, can it be a greater magnitude to society than some drunk doing it in a taxi q? is there anything in guidelines which says celebrities will always get treated as though they are a ordinary member of public? Jury’s soft on celebs the judges can be harsh with the sentencing. Maybe in the judges mind time and again, too soft on celebrity here and the media is going to go ape s***. anyway, apart from dragging our clubs reputation even lower, the court case is immaterial, if he did headbutt the teeth out then Barton is finished at Rovers with a lengthily FA EFL ban. BIG QUESTION IS are the board actively planning for life without him whilst remaining supportive publicly? Realistically they have to be seriously considering a new manager in a ban scenario don’t they? No. No what? it’s looking more that 50/50 he gets a ban so ceases to be Rovers manager, you saying the board shouldn’t be making plans for new manager? Or, are you saying, if he gets the ban then No, he can still be the manager? Yes they need to be having a think and discussions about who they appoint in June if the manager gets banned, and yes that needs to be an uncontroversial character, the attempt to keep us up using passion and thuggery proves such an approach doesn’t work, it has to be a mixed approach, yes to cuddles where it needs them, no favouritism, and the fear comes if you are not performing you don’t make the starting or bench. And no to Barton type slagging employees off in public. And yes to blend of young coach old mentor or seasoned manager with young number 2. looking like the sun might actually come out in June.
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Post by emperorsuperbus on May 16, 2021 17:45:17 GMT
An explanation on this link if you're bored on a Sunday "harm" & "culpability" seem to be both taken into consideration, it's interesting that that there is reference of a "headbutt" making the offence more culpable, as there was an allegation in the press after the incident that was how Stendel tooth was damaged, before it changed to him being pushed into a post. The actual events surrounding the assault could be just as important as the verdict for Barton's future as a Rovers manager. I wonder if the club's lawyers considered any of the facts of the case before giving Barton such a lengthy contract? Do you honestly believe lawyers were consulted? I think we targeted one person for the job and all other interested persons were ignored. Contracts are quite straight forward with provision to add or delete clauses. They are then registered with the FA. I don’t think we targeted him, I think he’s got some good agents onside, think of the PNE link clearly put out there by agents. I think Gas Board are rubbish at dealing with agents, instead of strapping themselves to the deck they are idiotic enough to go swimming toward the serene voices. Barton didn’t come here for the long term, he came here to improve his CV before the inevitable bans. And some gasheads still in love with him despite the fact the cad used them?
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dinsdale
Andy Rammell
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 495
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Post by dinsdale on May 16, 2021 18:10:40 GMT
Isn’t it just. A great shame LJG no longer is active here, unless dinsdale had that username ? Not accusing anyone of anything btw I know Dinsdale and the two are not the same. Hi im not ljg :-). When i joined the forums i was 22 and posted as Probation gas. Then when the forums all changed i went with my twitter handle. (Almost 20 years on) I dont post in my own name as its discouraged in my line of work. A couple of bits - the abh categories are related to how serious the injury was as stated before a tooth injury is not in the higher categories. A probation officer interviewing Barton would look at his record and say he needed anger management not prison and the judge can only operate within the guidance.
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dinsdale
Andy Rammell
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 495
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Post by dinsdale on May 16, 2021 18:13:53 GMT
I know Dinsdale and the two are not the same. As i said, no accusation, just thinking/writing what I was thinking. I’ve had many chats with dinsdale although not in the flesh and during Higgs time. No harm nor sleight intended Enjoyed them mate. Dont post too much these days but still follow the nonsense on here :-)
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2021 18:26:23 GMT
I know Dinsdale and the two are not the same. Hi im not ljg :-). When i joined the forums i was 22 and posted as Probation gas. Then when the forums all changed i went with my twitter handle. (Almost 20 years on) I dont post in my own name as its discouraged in my line of work. A couple of bits - the abh categories are related to how serious the injury was as stated before a tooth injury is not in the higher categories. A probation officer interviewing Barton would look at his record and say he needed anger management not prison and the judge can only operate within the guidance. But the judge could form the opinion that the offender was 'a danger to society' and therefore conclude that a custodial sentence, as long as it's within the guidelines, was appropriate, I believe. We'll have to wait and see, won't we. No use pretending that, for examples sake, shoving someone and them knocking a tooth loose on a wall is the same as kicking someone's teeth out when they are already flat out on the floor. It's all in the detail. Not long to wait now. For clarity, I'm not suggesting that either of those things have happened in this case, I have literally no clue about the incident we are discussing, those are purely hypothetical examples. I don't even know if teeth were damaged. I know that's been written on the internet, but I've heard that some stuff on the internet isn't true.
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Post by emperorsuperbus on May 16, 2021 21:22:55 GMT
I know Dinsdale and the two are not the same. Hi im not ljg :-). When i joined the forums i was 22 and posted as Probation gas. Then when the forums all changed i went with my twitter handle. (Almost 20 years on) I dont post in my own name as its discouraged in my line of work. A couple of bits - the abh categories are related to how serious the injury was as stated before a tooth injury is not in the higher categories. A probation officer interviewing Barton would look at his record and say he needed anger management not prison and the judge can only operate within the guidance. Hm. 🧐 What about instances where you were lucky someone was not more badly hurt, considering what you done and the intent you did it. In other words intent, does that not play regardless of outcome? What about instances where there was clear provocation versus where there was none at all? Can it be the same sentence in both cases? Is previous never taken into account? You have raped eleven times, but for the 12th it still only counts as one? I thought Norman Fletcher was banged up for 5 not because he burgled a house, but because he was a persistent offender?
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Post by emperorsuperbus on May 16, 2021 21:38:40 GMT
Hi im not ljg :-). When i joined the forums i was 22 and posted as Probation gas. Then when the forums all changed i went with my twitter handle. (Almost 20 years on) I dont post in my own name as its discouraged in my line of work. A couple of bits - the abh categories are related to how serious the injury was as stated before a tooth injury is not in the higher categories. A probation officer interviewing Barton would look at his record and say he needed anger management not prison and the judge can only operate within the guidance. But the judge could form the opinion that the offender was 'a danger to society' and therefore conclude that a custodial sentence, as long as it's within the guidelines, was appropriate, I believe. We'll have to wait and see, won't we. No use pretending that, for examples sake, shoving someone and them knocking a tooth loose on a wall is the same as kicking someone's teeth out when they are already flat out on the floor. It's all in the detail. Not long to wait now. For clarity, I'm not suggesting that either of those things have happened in this case, I have literally no clue about the incident we are discussing, those are purely hypothetical examples. I don't even know if teeth were damaged. I know that's been written on the internet, but I've heard that some stuff on the internet isn't true. Hardly a shock Duke, under judicial consideration and therefore prohibited from public discussion elsewhere is sub judice. As this is under a judge. So,if the ins and outs were available, it would be contempt of court? We know enough that something happened, and the police feel they can prosecute and get a conviction. Surely the club hired him on the basis they discussed before giving him a contract the fact he would be appearing in court as the accused? And surely a negative outcome from that was built into his contract. So if he loses, we should be shocked we still owe him after sacking him, because it won’t be a sacking, but a compensationless break clause?
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Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,920
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Post by Peter Parker on May 17, 2021 7:43:20 GMT
On the ban thing. Assuming he doesnt get a custodial sentence, but the FA ban him for say 3 months, how do the FA enforce that/monitor it?
So say we put Clint Hill in charge, how do/would the FA monitor that Barton wanst pulling the strings off camera?
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,502
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Post by eppinggas on May 17, 2021 8:13:39 GMT
On the ban thing. Assuming he doesnt get a custodial sentence, but the FA ban him for say 3 months, how do the FA enforce that/monitor it? So say we put Clint Hill in charge, how do/would the FA monitor that Barton wanst pulling the strings off camera? In a way, that scenario would be the worst of both worlds. Because that introduces uncertainty. Who is running things on the footballing front? How are they doing it? ie. Mr Barton is found guilty at Crown Court, but given a suspended sentence. The EFL find him guilty for bringing the game into disrepute (I presume that's the charge - someone let me know if not) and is given a 6 or 12 month ban from football. What does Wael do then? Are supporters to suffer hearing Tammy Wynette singing "Stand by your man" before kick off for a season? This isn't me being 'anti-Barton'. It illustrates the utterly ridiculous situation the Board could very easily have put the Club in. If Mr Barton is found "not guilty" by both the Courts and the EFL - then fine. Project Barton can continue. Just without people like me. I think it will be a car crash. Others disagree. Fairy nuff.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on May 17, 2021 10:46:56 GMT
On the ban thing. Assuming he doesnt get a custodial sentence, but the FA ban him for say 3 months, how do the FA enforce that/monitor it? So say we put Clint Hill in charge, how do/would the FA monitor that Barton wanst pulling the strings off camera? In a way, that scenario would be the worst of both worlds. Because that introduces uncertainty. Who is running things on the footballing front? How are they doing it? ie. Mr Barton is found guilty at Crown Court, but given a suspended sentence. The EFL find him guilty for bringing the game into disrepute (I presume that's the charge - someone let me know if not) and is given a 6 or 12 month ban from football. What does Wael do then? Are supporters to suffer hearing Tammy Wynette singing "Stand by your man" before kick off for a season? This isn't me being 'anti-Barton'. It illustrates the utterly ridiculous situation the Board could very easily have put the Club in. If Mr Barton is found "not guilty" by both the Courts and the EFL - then fine. Project Barton can continue. Just without people like me. I think it will be a car crash. Others disagree. Fairy nuff. Fully in agreement
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