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Post by droitwichgas on Jun 5, 2021 19:32:58 GMT
And you have just confirmed what I said earlier. Prejudice. Thank you for defining your own example. Also you were complaining about everything before JB came in, so please don't mention unity has been lost due to him. The only way unity will start is if you start to support Bristol Rovers instead of continually looking for ways to criticise. I am sorry to disagree with your opinion Holmes because I have the highest respect for you. However, in this debate I have to take issue. Bristol Rovers have always been a good example of 'right' in what is often a murky world that is professional football. Perhaps the best example being when BRFC blew the whistle on Esmond Million and others who damaged the world of football, which at the time also severely damaged BRFC. Younger readers of this forum will probably have no knowledge of that but I still regard it as a wonderful example of fair play in football which so many Clubs will never achieve. Of course everybody deserves a 'second chance', but how many chances are you/we willing to give Mr Barton?? Others have listed the offences that Barton has been guilty of, mainly with no apology or explanation, and whilst none of us are completely 'whiter that white' I am sure most will not have committed offence after offence as per has been listed for our current manager. In my seventy odd years supporting the Gas I have always wanted the best, but only by fair and honest means and if that means coming second - then so be it. The question we all need to consider is 'will Mr Barton and his staff work to the highest degree of honesty? in his dealing for and on behalf of BRFC - if not - then we should ask him to leave, but if he can honestly answer yes - and then do so - then MAYBE (and the jury is watching) - we could give him yet another chance (how many chances is that?) Personally, I can think of many better qualified potential managers - come back DARRELL please! Assuming you mean on a financial basis then is there any real evidence of dishonestly in his dealings whilst at Fleetwood, or is this something made up just to attack JB/Wael?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 20:48:12 GMT
deleted, just saw it was posted elsewhere.
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Post by holmesgas1 on Jun 5, 2021 22:59:13 GMT
It looks as if your grouping me in good company. People who are willing to give people a chance, willing to support the club through thick and thin, until there is clear evidence we are going in the wrong direction. Relegation is not evidence, its sport and why we love it. I am still trying to work out what you want. It's probably something very similar to me. 1) a club 2) success 3) a stadium we can be proud of 4) seen as part of the community 5) financial stabilisation and sustainability 1 and 4 we have, 2,3 and 5 still seems closer than what we had under Higgs. So tell me, what do you want? Progress is slow, but is still better than what we were looking at 6 years ago. Now you are changing the subject. For the 5th time, show me where the prejudice is please. You can't can you. 6 years ago we had just been promoted back to the football League, so there was upwards trajectory, we had the core of the squad that were about to be promoted to L1, UWE was still an active plan and losses were a fraction of what we were running up even pre-lockdown. And the manager didn't have multiple convictions relating to assaulting people. No I'm not changing the subject. Your prejudice is there every time you post about JB, but you are too blind to see it. If you don't like it being pointed out that is a different issue. With respect to the 2nd part I will come back as part of an answer to Swiss, who has kindly gone into some detail.
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Post by baselswh on Jun 6, 2021 6:32:49 GMT
This dislike,lack of respect etc, football fans across the UK have for Rovers,now we have Joey Barton as Manager.
In what form does this come in?
Non attendance when their team play Rovers?
Non transfer deals because they don't want to deal with JB,or their players to play for him because eg,he might 'bash them up'?
Etc.
I asked before,but I don't think anyone responded.
A few comments on a BBC online article hardly warrants the cascade of petty and vengeful criticism and insult we see on this Forum.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 8:46:29 GMT
Now you are changing the subject. For the 5th time, show me where the prejudice is please. You can't can you. 6 years ago we had just been promoted back to the football League, so there was upwards trajectory, we had the core of the squad that were about to be promoted to L1, UWE was still an active plan and losses were a fraction of what we were running up even pre-lockdown. And the manager didn't have multiple convictions relating to assaulting people. No I'm not changing the subject. Your prejudice is there every time you post about JB, but you are too blind to see it. If you don't like it being pointed out that is a different issue. With respect to the 2nd part I will come back as part of an answer to Swiss, who has kindly gone into some detail.
There is a clearly a lot of prejudice towards JB, that is clear to everyone to see.
Here is the link to his address to Cambridge Union 2 or 3 years ago. its very long, but very interesting. I tracked it down last night after Eppings mentioned it in the other thread.
Eppings says on the other thread that JB is boasting about attacking players and shows no remorse or regret, I dont see any evidence of that at all, I see anything but, and I see someone acknowledging the errors of their past and trying to become a better person - and sometimes failing.
(Maybe JB did another address another time, if so i would be interested to see it. Or maybe people just hear what they want to hear, even when its not there )
I wonder if people will watch, or just say 'I dont need to...' as their mind is already made up.
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Post by holmesgas1 on Jun 6, 2021 9:11:20 GMT
No I'm not changing the subject. Your prejudice is there every time you post about JB, but you are too blind to see it. If you don't like it being pointed out that is a different issue. With respect to the 2nd part I will come back as part of an answer to Swiss, who has kindly gone into some detail.
There is a clearly a lot of prejudice towards JB, that is clear to everyone to see.
Here is the link to his address to Cambridge Union 2 or 3 years ago. its very long, but very interesting. I tracked it down last night after Epson mentioned it in the other thread.
Epson says on the other thread that JB is boasting about attacking players and shows no remorse or regret, I dont see any evidence of that at all, I see anything but, and I see someone acknowledging the errors of their past and trying to become a better person - and sometimes failing.
(Maybe JB did another address another time, if so i would be interested to see it. Or maybe people just hear what they want to hear, even when its not there )
I wonder if people will watch, or just say 'I dont need to...' as their mind is already made up.
Well said.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 9:25:07 GMT
Now you are changing the subject. For the 5th time, show me where the prejudice is please. You can't can you. 6 years ago we had just been promoted back to the football League, so there was upwards trajectory, we had the core of the squad that were about to be promoted to L1, UWE was still an active plan and losses were a fraction of what we were running up even pre-lockdown. And the manager didn't have multiple convictions relating to assaulting people. No I'm not changing the subject. Your prejudice is there every time you post about JB, but you are too blind to see it. If you don't like it being pointed out that is a different issue. With respect to the 2nd part I will come back as part of an answer to Swiss, who has kindly gone into some detail. For the 6th time, you obviously don't understand the meaning of the word prejudice, so here's yet another opportunity to point me towards an adverse opinion of Barton that is not based on reason or actual experience. Why don't you just accept the correction and say something along the lines of 'We have different opinions about him, but I'm so far up myself that if anybody disagrees with me I'll accuse them of not being a real supporter'. At least that would be honest on your part.
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Post by a more piratey game on Jun 6, 2021 10:02:00 GMT
I'm only 15 minutes in, but this is well worth listening to. The picture so far is of someone who has relied on 'strength of character/animal instincts' to 'show everyone that they are wrong'
he 'comes alive and is at his best' when told he can't do anything - on that basis his biggest critics on here are doing him and the club the biggest possible favour!
he's much nicer to listen to here than he is when being interviewed as Rovers manager
he doesn't learn easily though. It seems that he pushes through obstacles rather than learning better ways to deal with them. He has been 'hardened by his experiences', but it isn't clear that he has learned much beyond 'a mistake isn't fatal'
he also doesn't seem to anticipate things, or the consequences of actions. There's also little sense of a quality of judgement, just reactions to what happens
he does, though, say that he has 'slowly learned that freedom comes from discipline'. Though I'm not sure that he has managed to integrate that lesson into his behaviours
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Post by a more piratey game on Jun 6, 2021 10:08:37 GMT
'the reason most professional footballers are working class lads is that they have burning ambition'
what a lot of tosh IMO
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Post by a more piratey game on Jun 6, 2021 10:27:01 GMT
I think his idea of a perfect night would be one spent with TWD - on the basis that he enjoys arguing
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Post by holmesgas1 on Jun 6, 2021 11:47:39 GMT
No I'm not changing the subject. Your prejudice is there every time you post about JB, but you are too blind to see it. If you don't like it being pointed out that is a different issue. With respect to the 2nd part I will come back as part of an answer to Swiss, who has kindly gone into some detail. For the 6th time, you obviously don't understand the meaning of the word prejudice, so here's yet another opportunity to point me towards an adverse opinion of Barton that is not based on reason or actual experience. Why don't you just accept the correction and say something along the lines of 'We have different opinions about him, but I'm so far up myself that if anybody disagrees with me I'll accuse them of not being a real supporter'. At least that would be honest on your part. Shall we look at the definition of honest, while we are about it. As I said your a lost cause when it come to a rational debate so will leave it there.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 12:23:00 GMT
I'm only 15 minutes in, but this is well worth listening to. The picture so far is of someone who has relied on 'strength of character/animal instincts' to 'show everyone that they are wrong' he 'comes alive and is at his best' when told he can't do anything - on that basis his biggest critics on here are doing him and the club the biggest possible favour! he's much nicer to listen to here than he is when being interviewed as Rovers manager he doesn't learn easily though. It seems that he pushes through obstacles rather than learning better ways to deal with them. He has been 'hardened by his experiences', but it isn't clear that he has learned much beyond 'a mistake isn't fatal' he also doesn't seem to anticipate things, or the consequences of actions. There's also little sense of a quality of judgement, just reactions to what happens he does, though, say that he has 'slowly learned that freedom comes from discipline'. Though I'm not sure that he has managed to integrate that lesson into his behaviours Good on you for having a sufficiently open mind to watching it AMPG - I thought it was interesting too
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bloogas
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Post by bloogas on Jun 6, 2021 14:09:01 GMT
'the reason most professional footballers are working class lads is that they have burning ambition' what a lot of tosh IMO Harry Redknapp might agree with you. He said something similar a few years back. Something about young players quite happy to sit in the reserves or whatever on very good money rather than move elsewhere to play first team football.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 14:09:21 GMT
For the 6th time, you obviously don't understand the meaning of the word prejudice, so here's yet another opportunity to point me towards an adverse opinion of Barton that is not based on reason or actual experience. Why don't you just accept the correction and say something along the lines of 'We have different opinions about him, but I'm so far up myself that if anybody disagrees with me I'll accuse them of not being a real supporter'. At least that would be honest on your part. Shall we look at the definition of honest, while we are about it. As I said your a lost cause when it come to a rational debate so will leave it there. Well, here's what you actually said. How about if this is spun around 180 degrees and I say that I believe that the lack is unity originates from you not agreeing with me. Now what? Do you see how daft your statement was? It's either agree with you or I don't support the club in the way that you think I ought to. Daft doesn't begin to cover it. Now, attempt number 7. Please point to an example of prejudice towards Barton on this forum.
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Post by holmesgas1 on Jun 6, 2021 14:48:03 GMT
Shall we look at the definition of honest, while we are about it. As I said your a lost cause when it come to a rational debate so will leave it there. Well, here's what you actually said. How about if this is spun around 180 degrees and I say that I believe that the lack is unity originates from you not agreeing with me. Now what? Do you see how daft your statement was? It's either agree with you or I don't support the club in the way that you think I ought to. Daft doesn't begin to cover it. Now, attempt number 7. Please point to an example of prejudice towards Barton on this forum. Now we are into "daft". I understand you are an educated and successful person, though I do wonder in what discipline. Combative style that's for sure and not someone who likes to be disagreed with. Let's just agree to disagree. Here's hoping to a successful season whether that's with JB or someone else. Hopefully you can at least agree on those two items as life is to short.
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Post by swissgas on Jun 6, 2021 15:10:49 GMT
Probably out on my own again but this thread illustrates one of the ongoing problems we have which is the infatuation with personalities and the lack of focus on what is best for Rovers.
I’m sure many people could see Nick Higgs was leading Rovers in the wrong direction but, led by the SC and PC, they put loyalty to Nick first despite the cost. And now we have exactly the same situation with Wael but it is the fierce opponents of the SC and PC who support him in whatever he decides to do regardless of harm done to the football club.
Everyone knows that if Barton was not Rovers manager the vast majority of Gasheads would despise him for the way he has conducted himself throughout his career. But as Wael’s choice many now feel it is their duty to make an about turn and try to find every way possible of backing Barton. This is summed up by “ he might be a reformed character so we should give him a chance”. I can see some reason for saying “he’s here now so we don’t have much choice other than supporting him” but to try to pretend he is a changed man is IMO wishful thinking at its worst. Only four months ago he was fired from Fleetwood Town because their owner wasn’t happy with his performance and one of the factors, mentioned in newspaper reports since, was the dressing room fight with Ched Evans and the disruption he caused at the club which Simon Grayson has had to sort out.
We now have two “personalities” at the club whom I fear many will back themselves into a corner for and defend to the bitter end no matter what happens to Rovers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 15:20:12 GMT
Well, here's what you actually said. How about if this is spun around 180 degrees and I say that I believe that the lack is unity originates from you not agreeing with me. Now what? Do you see how daft your statement was? It's either agree with you or I don't support the club in the way that you think I ought to. Daft doesn't begin to cover it. Now, attempt number 7. Please point to an example of prejudice towards Barton on this forum. Now we are into "daft". I understand you are an educated and successful person, though I do wonder in what discipline. Combative style that's for sure and not someone who likes to be disagreed with. Let's just agree to disagree. Here's hoping to a successful season whether that's with JB or someone else. Hopefully you can at least agree on those two items as life is to short. Putting forward a daft proposition doesn't make you a daft person. I don't know you so have no way of making that assessment. But your position here most certainly is silly. Firstly all you needed to do was alter one word, but you have been too stubborn, then you want everybody to agree with you, without even attempting to demonstrate that the position you hold is in the best interests of the club. 7 attempts is more than enough to establish, beyond doubt, that no prejudice whatsoever was displayed, so at least we've put that to bed once and for all.
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Post by holmesgas1 on Jun 6, 2021 15:36:33 GMT
Swiss thanks for the comprehensive reply. Let me put some more context to my comments.
On point 2) I was not saying we are success at the moment. We have just been relegated. However to say Higgs was successful is also stretching it. It was under his tenure that we nose dived to non-league and it was only through the excellent work of Darrell Clarke that we got back to league 1. The one thing Higgs got right was supporting DC. However why I believe we are in a better position for success in the long term links to 3 and 5. Higgs may have had credibility with UWE and South Glos Council, but he did not deliver. He was taken in by Sainsbury's (like many others I hasten to add, not just Rovers) and then went on an unwinnable crusade like a sad gambler flipping the last card in Vegas to get his money back. As we all know that often leaves you high and dry (payday loans), which is where we would have been if Wael had not stepped in. With respect to UWE, until someone can definitely tell me that was a good deal for Rovers I'm willing to take Wael at his word, because Higgs definitely did not have a strong bargaining position. Also you only have to look at Coventry what can happen if you do not have the correct rights over your stadium. With respect to a future stadium, I am as fed up as the rest of us, but again lets see what happens over the next 2 years once the Covid block is out of the way. If there are no concrete plans by then I agree major questions should be asked. However where I disagree with you is Wael's access to finance. I think he has good if not better chance than Higgs of getting reputable finance and just just from Wonga.
That leads to 5, how you can say we are in a worse financial position under Weal than Higgs makes no sense. He had led us to the brink of bankruptcy, and as I said it was only through Wael stepping in that did not happen. That makes me conclude we would be in a much lower position league wise if Higgs had still been here, even with our relegation, especially with the impact of Covid. We could have easily been another Bury. I know you dispute the debt has been written off, but I have not seen anything that makes me think it hasn't, and yes I have read your posts. Fully agree with you £3M/yr loss is not sustainable, but prior to Covid the club seemed to be making inroads on the debt. The proof now will be what happens over the next couple of years as things open up.
so yes I believe we are in a better position than with Higgs.
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Post by holmesgas1 on Jun 6, 2021 15:41:25 GMT
Now we are into "daft". I understand you are an educated and successful person, though I do wonder in what discipline. Combative style that's for sure and not someone who likes to be disagreed with. Let's just agree to disagree. Here's hoping to a successful season whether that's with JB or someone else. Hopefully you can at least agree on those two items as life is to short. Putting forward a daft proposition doesn't make you a daft person. I don't know you so have no way of making that assessment. But your position here most certainly is silly. Firstly all you needed to do was alter one word, but you have been too stubborn, then you want everybody to agree with you, without even attempting to demonstrate that the position you hold is in the best interests of the club. 7 attempts is more than enough to establish, beyond doubt, that no prejudice whatsoever was displayed, so at least we've put that to bed once and for all. You can't even agree with me that a successful season is worth agreeing on. Put your pride away and stop trying to score points and at least agree on that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 16:49:17 GMT
Putting forward a daft proposition doesn't make you a daft person. I don't know you so have no way of making that assessment. But your position here most certainly is silly. Firstly all you needed to do was alter one word, but you have been too stubborn, then you want everybody to agree with you, without even attempting to demonstrate that the position you hold is in the best interests of the club. 7 attempts is more than enough to establish, beyond doubt, that no prejudice whatsoever was displayed, so at least we've put that to bed once and for all. You can't even agree with me that a successful season is worth agreeing on. Put your pride away and stop trying to score points and at least agree on that. There are all sorts of things that we can agree on, being kind to small animals, remembering your Mother's birthday etc, but you are just changing the subject because you've backed yourself into a corner. This has been going on between us for 2 days now and you haven't even attempted to put forward an argument, all you've done is insist that you are right. Based on that it's not unreasonable to conclude that the criticism aimed at both Barton and the people making decisions relating to the running of the club are entirely fair.
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