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Post by holmesgas1 on May 10, 2021 8:40:26 GMT
Wael Al-Qadi has put the Club in a ridiculous position. We obviously have a big 're-build' ahead of next season. But we can't do anything because we do not know if the manager is going to be sent to prison after his Crown Court case on June 7th. People who think he can retain the Bristol Rovers managers position whilst in prison need their head examined. Surely we can't allow Mr Barton to start the re-build, knowing that he only has about a 25% chance of a not guilty verdict? A guilty verdict would almost certainly mean a custodial sentence. I've had a JP and an ex-Met officer suggest (given his previous) that the ball-park sentence would be 1-2 years. Obviously this depends on details of the case, which none of us are privy to. There may be mitigating circumstances. Therefore we will have lost at least a month of planning (if Mr Barton is found not guilty). If Mr Barton goes to prison we're back to February 22nd. And that would require a complete overhaul. Brilliant. Nice job Wael. Fully agree with you on above, but if he does not go down in June, then I hope a few more on here give him support. If he does, it's a mess as you say. It is a risky strategy, but hopefully Wael has some insight that the former is more likely.
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on May 10, 2021 9:34:29 GMT
Wael Al-Qadi has put the Club in a ridiculous position. We obviously have a big 're-build' ahead of next season. But we can't do anything because we do not know if the manager is going to be sent to prison after his Crown Court case on June 7th. People who think he can retain the Bristol Rovers managers position whilst in prison need their head examined. Surely we can't allow Mr Barton to start the re-build, knowing that he only has about a 25% chance of a not guilty verdict? A guilty verdict would almost certainly mean a custodial sentence. I've had a JP and an ex-Met officer suggest (given his previous) that the ball-park sentence would be 1-2 years. Obviously this depends on details of the case, which none of us are privy to. There may be mitigating circumstances. Therefore we will have lost at least a month of planning (if Mr Barton is found not guilty). If Mr Barton goes to prison we're back to February 22nd. And that would require a complete overhaul. Brilliant. Nice job Wael. Fully agree with you on above, but if he does not go down in June, then I hope a few more on here give him support. If he does, it's a mess as you say. It is a risky strategy, but hopefully Wael has some insight that the former is more likely. One "hope" and one "hopefully"! We will have to wait for the Court Case verdict. We can't really second guess anything until then.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 9:44:47 GMT
I think the board made an error in not telling Garner he must appoint an experienced assistant - agree with Holmes. Someone coming in (Mesure) equally inexperienced as him was a big problem. The idea of the 'Garner project' was not flawed in itself (Blackpool have done something similar?) but the excecution & recruitment was.
Fleetwood gave us a footballing lesson earlier in the season in my view, they looked a really good side, it was men against boys. Thought they looked very good last season too. Just saying.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 10:03:14 GMT
How do you arrive at the conclusion that of every available option literally none give a better chance of producing success than Barton? In what way is Widdringtom comparable to Lennie Lawrence? You don't just get it do you. There may be others out there that might do a better job, but 1) they may not want to come 2) they may want to much money 3) we have had 3 managers already this season. Changing another at this point would probably put most decent managers off. 4)JB was reasonably successful at Fleetwood 5) Give JB a transfer window, then judge him. With respect to Widdrington, if he had took responsibility and stopped Garner going down the "total football" route and changing to much, and acted as a mentor, we might not be in this mess. Trollope got that from Laurance and we all saw the benefits. When he left we saw something similar to what happened with Garner. So, you've moved instantly from a statement of 'Has the best chance' straight to 'if' 'may not' and 'probably'. Barton achieved nothing more at Fleetwood than Coughlan did at Rovers, but Coughlan did it without running up a £5,950,000 loss. Should we call him back? I see you've now decided to support him regardless of what evidence is put forward against him in court. So I have to agree, I don't 'get it', I don't get it one tiny bit. Sorry about that.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 10:07:03 GMT
Fully agree with you on above, but if he does not go down in June, then I hope a few more on here give him support. If he does, it's a mess as you say. It is a risky strategy, but hopefully Wael has some insight that the former is more likely. One "hope" and one "hopefully"! We will have to wait for the Court Case verdict. We can't really second guess anything until then. You did in your post.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 10:21:02 GMT
You don't just get it do you. There may be others out there that might do a better job, but 1) they may not want to come 2) they may want to much money 3) we have had 3 managers already this season. Changing another at this point would probably put most decent managers off. 4)JB was reasonably successful at Fleetwood 5) Give JB a transfer window, then judge him. With respect to Widdrington, if he had took responsibility and stopped Garner going down the "total football" route and changing to much, and acted as a mentor, we might not be in this mess. Trollope got that from Laurance and we all saw the benefits. When he left we saw something similar to what happened with Garner. So, you've moved instantly from a statement of 'Has the best chance' straight to 'if' 'may not' and 'probably'. Barton achieved nothing more at Fleetwood than Coughlan did at Rovers, but Coughlan did it without running up a £5,950,000 loss. Should we call him back? I see you've now decided to support him regardless of what evidence is put forward against him in court. So I have to agree, I don't 'get it', I don't get it one tiny bit. Sorry about that. Based on the size of the club and the gates they get pre covid, how would you propose Fleetwood progress and make themselves competitive? Just wondering
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 10:36:59 GMT
So, you've moved instantly from a statement of 'Has the best chance' straight to 'if' 'may not' and 'probably'. Barton achieved nothing more at Fleetwood than Coughlan did at Rovers, but Coughlan did it without running up a £5,950,000 loss. Should we call him back? I see you've now decided to support him regardless of what evidence is put forward against him in court. So I have to agree, I don't 'get it', I don't get it one tiny bit. Sorry about that. Based on the size of the club and the gates they get pre covid, how would you propose Fleetwood progress and make themselves competitive? Just wondering Would need to spend a week or so there looking at their facilities and infrastructure, would need to understand what their sustainable budget is moving forward, then would take advice from people in the game, then a couple more weeks, at least, visiting other clubs who have attempted to progress in a similar way and have failed and some who have done well in similar circumstances before being able to even hazard a guess at that. I'm wondering if that was an attempt at a loaded question designed to justify the loss that Fleetwood ran up? If so, then it's one model I guess, have a huge budget for the first team, if it works you are in the Championship. What now? You need a massive budget to compete towards the top of that division. This brings us back to the ESL debate on a different thread and how the PL has distorted everything in our national game.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 10:42:30 GMT
Based on the size of the club and the gates they get pre covid, how would you propose Fleetwood progress and make themselves competitive? Just wondering Would need to spend a week or so there looking at their facilities and infrastructure, would need to understand what their sustainable budget is moving forward, then would take advice from people in the game, then a couple more weeks, at least, visiting other clubs who have attempted to progress in a similar way and have failed and some who have done well in similar circumstances before being able to even hazard a guess at that. I'm wondering if that was an attempt at a loaded question designed to justify the loss that Fleetwood ran up? If so, then it's one model I guess, have a huge budget for the first team, if it works you are in the Championship. What now? You need a massive budget to compete towards the top of that division. This brings us back to the ESL debate on a different thread and how the PL has distorted everything in our national game. Not loaded, just cant see any merit on blaming the manager of Fleetwood for running up a loss. I don't see anyone having a go at DC for our annual the losses a few years ago.
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on May 10, 2021 10:44:42 GMT
One "hope" and one "hopefully"! We will have to wait for the Court Case verdict. We can't really second guess anything until then. You did in your post. I concluded that we have either a 1 month delay to future planning, or a complete re-set (again), based on either a "guilty" or "not guilty" verdict. That's not second guessing. It's spelling out where the two possible verdicts from the criminal trial lead us. Which holmes, and I would imagine most people, can understand.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 10:56:04 GMT
Would need to spend a week or so there looking at their facilities and infrastructure, would need to understand what their sustainable budget is moving forward, then would take advice from people in the game, then a couple more weeks, at least, visiting other clubs who have attempted to progress in a similar way and have failed and some who have done well in similar circumstances before being able to even hazard a guess at that. I'm wondering if that was an attempt at a loaded question designed to justify the loss that Fleetwood ran up? If so, then it's one model I guess, have a huge budget for the first team, if it works you are in the Championship. What now? You need a massive budget to compete towards the top of that division. This brings us back to the ESL debate on a different thread and how the PL has distorted everything in our national game. Not loaded, just cant see any merit on blaming the manager of Fleetwood for running up a loss. I don't see anyone having a go at DC for our annual the losses a few years ago. The point is, it appears that a decision was made to load everything into the first team, but it didn't work. £6m down the river, in 1 year. Some responsibility for that has to sit with the manager.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 10:58:04 GMT
Not loaded, just cant see any merit on blaming the manager of Fleetwood for running up a loss. I don't see anyone having a go at DC for our annual the losses a few years ago. The point is, it appears that a decision was made to load everything into the first team, but it didn't work. £6m down the river, in 1 year. Some responsibility for that has to sit with the manager. Says who?
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 11:57:46 GMT
The point is, it appears that a decision was made to load everything into the first team, but it didn't work. £6m down the river, in 1 year. Some responsibility for that has to sit with the manager. Says who? Says me. That's how it 'appeared' to me based on the squad they assembled. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, it's just a distraction from the point, which is that Barton shouldn't be here, not on merit, and he certainly shouldn't have been appointed with a criminal charge hanging over him. Here are 2 examples of how, in my opinion, these things should be handled. Welsh FA are going in to a major championship without their manager. I'm sure you know the back story to that. Candidate in the Police and Crime Commissioner election for Swindon and Wiltshire, Jonathon Seed, who is expected to win the election, will not be allowed to take up the position due to a drink driving conviction some 30 years ago. This one may appear harsh, but it certainly lays down a set of standards for holding this high profile position.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 12:07:06 GMT
I concluded that we have either a 1 month delay to future planning, or a complete re-set (again), based on either a "guilty" or "not guilty" verdict. That's not second guessing. It's spelling out where the two possible verdicts from the criminal trial lead us. Which holmes, and I would imagine most people, can understand. If you say so.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 12:45:04 GMT
Says me.
That's how it 'appeared' to me based on the squad they assembled.Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, it's just a distraction from the point, which is that Barton shouldn't be here, not on merit, and he certainly shouldn't have been appointed with a criminal charge hanging over him. Here are 2 examples of how, in my opinion, these things should be handled. Welsh FA are going in to a major championship without their manager. I'm sure you know the back story to that. Candidate in the Police and Crime Commissioner election for Swindon and Wiltshire, Jonathon Seed, who is expected to win the election, will not be allowed to take up the position due to a drink driving conviction some 30 years ago. This one may appear harsh, but it certainly lays down a set of standards for holding this high profile position. So, no evidence then. Similar to the 'Wael cant afford to fund us' debate where it took a fair while for people to finally admit they in fact had no evidence and that they were merely speculating. I think people really should make it clearer when they are merely speculating, that way they wouldn't need to be challenged so much. Makes it easier for everyone. In this particular case, you have no idea what target JB was given by the Fleetwood board, what his playing budget was, what infrastructure they were investing in, what playing costs from the previous season were due, what other financial commitments they had, etc etc etc. No idea whatsoever, but you have labelled it at 'JB blowing £6m' in order to fit your narrative.
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Angas
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Post by Angas on May 10, 2021 12:58:58 GMT
Seems to me some people will scrabble around trying to find ways to make it fine for JB to be our manager. Just speculation on my part, of course.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 13:03:46 GMT
Says me.
That's how it 'appeared' to me based on the squad they assembled.Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, it's just a distraction from the point, which is that Barton shouldn't be here, not on merit, and he certainly shouldn't have been appointed with a criminal charge hanging over him. Here are 2 examples of how, in my opinion, these things should be handled. Welsh FA are going in to a major championship without their manager. I'm sure you know the back story to that. Candidate in the Police and Crime Commissioner election for Swindon and Wiltshire, Jonathon Seed, who is expected to win the election, will not be allowed to take up the position due to a drink driving conviction some 30 years ago. This one may appear harsh, but it certainly lays down a set of standards for holding this high profile position. So, no evidence then. Similar to the 'Wael cant afford to fund us' debate where it took a fair while for people to finally admit they in fact had no evidence and that they were merely speculating. I think people really should make it clearer when they are merely speculating, that way they wouldn't need to be challenged so much. Makes it easier for everyone. In this particular case, you have no idea what target JB was given by the Fleetwood board, what his playing budget was, what infrastructure they were investing in, what playing costs from the previous season were due, what other financial commitments they had, etc etc etc. No idea whatsoever, but you have labelled it at 'JB blowing £6m' in order to fit your narrative. Do you understand the meaning of the word 'appeared'? I only ask as your latest rant seems to suggest that you don't. I never once claimed that I knew what Wael's income or nett worth was, but I have asked the question, 'Can he afford to cover this amount of money year after year and invest to take the club forward?' several times. If you have an issue with something someone else has posted, take it up with them, leave me out of it. As for the rest of it, I'm not even sure what your point is. It's a matter of public record that Fleetwood ran up a £6,000,000 loss, the question then becomes, did they do that with the target of not getting promoted? Poolfoot Farm training centre was opened in 2016 at a cost of £8m, that's before the accounting period under discussion here. Are you aware of any other significant infrastructure costs contained within that set of accounts please? You are accusing me of attempting to use those figures to massage the story to fit a narrative without looking at the accounts yourself.
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Post by a more piratey game on May 10, 2021 13:04:25 GMT
Seems to me some people will scrabble around trying to find ways to make it fine for JB to be our manager. Just speculation on my part, of course. exactly as I see it. Scratching my head as to why though
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kingswood Polak
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Post by kingswood Polak on May 10, 2021 13:13:57 GMT
Most fans may be fed up with failure but a sizable minority seem quite content with it. Once we readily accept second best and adopt the attitude of “why bother there’s nothing we can do about it anyway” the club will only go in one direction. Not sure that's true. I just think most fans think Joey Barton has the best chance of giving us success. Our biggest mistake was allowing a rookie manager a full control. With a Lennie Laurance type figure in the background it may worked. It's clear Widdrington didn't give that old hand support. It wasn’t our mistake though. Most of us have shown unswerving support, over decades. I believe we deserve better. I don’t like Barton but I still want us to succeed, he has done nothing but moan and show utter contempt for the players. I’m no manager but have managed, in the workplace & I know the constant criticism and then picking out a player that the players voted to be captain, as extremely poorly executed decisions. I have seen absolutely no evidence the Barton can truly manage. Please tell me what you see as his potential, I am genuinely interested in your views holmesgas1. I enjoy reading your posts but I would like to know what you feel he brings to the club
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Angas
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Post by Angas on May 10, 2021 13:15:25 GMT
Seems to me some people will scrabble around trying to find ways to make it fine for JB to be our manager. Just speculation on my part, of course. exactly as I see it. Scratching my head as to why though We can only speculate. Seems to me though that it's down to a sense of loyalty to Wael and being seen to support him no matter what. Which is understandable if that's what their conscience tells them to do. Time will no doubt tell if that loyalty was well founded.
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kingswood Polak
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Post by kingswood Polak on May 10, 2021 13:19:51 GMT
I think the board made an error in not telling Garner he must appoint an experienced assistant - agree with Holmes. Someone coming in (Mesure) equally inexperienced as him was a big problem. The idea of the 'Garner project' was not flawed in itself (Blackpool have done something similar?) but the excecution & recruitment was. Fleetwood gave us a footballing lesson earlier in the season in my view, they looked a really good side, it was men against boys. Thought they looked very good last season too. Just saying. How much was spent, to make Fleetwood that way and will Wael provide the same funding ? No need to answer as we don’t know but can only speculate
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