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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Mar 13, 2021 19:19:24 GMT
Be very careful how you view "normal people" and what that means! Some utterly disgraceful past occurrences, no doubt. And I agree, to not renounce or address each wrongdoing kinda compounds the issue. In my opinion. That's his personal life, some may judge that relevant, others might not so much. There have been green shoots of nice approach since JAB arrival. It's a start. Only time will tell whether he is as truly troubled as you say.... maybe there's help sought as we communicate? Maybe there's a new leaf in a different part of the country for him that will offer him a different way? Maybe spending time out of his usual patch will make him view on his past differently? Maybe he'll grow up? Who knows? What I think is important is, he has the opportunity to prove it to himself. To be a decent human being and learn from previous misgivings. We can help him. This opportunity presented could be the biggest turning point in his (and our) lives where the virtue of value towards his fellow person is understood and reflected on. Even if it after 3,500 chances.... That's how I see it, so far. Opportunities for all parties to learn. Although the occasional long shot does come off most of the time..... If you're using JAB as a metaphor for a long shot, I think most supporting views would take that..
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Mar 13, 2021 19:30:07 GMT
Be very careful how you view "normal people" and what that means! Some utterly disgraceful past occurrences, no doubt. And I agree, to not renounce or address each wrongdoing kinda compounds the issue. In my opinion. That's his personal life, some may judge that relevant, others might not so much. There have been green shoots of nice approach since JAB arrival. It's a start. Only time will tell whether he is as truly troubled as you say.... maybe there's help sought as we communicate? Maybe there's a new leaf in a different part of the country for him that will offer him a different way? Maybe spending time out of his usual patch will make him view on his past differently? Maybe he'll grow up? Who knows? What I think is important is, he has the opportunity to prove it to himself. To be a decent human being and learn from previous misgivings. We can help him. This opportunity presented could be the biggest turning point in his (and our) lives where the virtue of value towards his fellow person is understood and reflected on. Even if it after 3,500 chances.... That's how I see it, so far. Opportunities for all parties to learn. Unfortunately even as of last Tuesday he thinks there's humour to be made out of an occurrence which left 2 people injured and him in prison, so it doesn't sound as if he's started any kind of journey into a period of serious self reflection and repentance. It sounded more like self aggrandisation with zero thought for the victims to me. How do you suppose the people he attacked would feel if they heard him referencing that incident as part of an interview, laughing, and knowing that he was doing that interview as part of his employment T&Cs, so was being paid for it? The other sad thing about that is that I'll wager that he didn't get a call that night from anybody within the club telling him that was unacceptable. What have we become? Yes I can see how that comment could be construed that way, but honestly I don't think that was premeditated or intended that way [about prison] that's what I inferred. I think it was Holloway-esque, and self depreciating humour, and tastefully delivered as in "let's laugh at me, not with me" does have it's own niche. Humour can actually be used therapeutically. For me, the comments weren't unacceptable. JAB was putting into context the poor referee decision, and looking back over highlights he has a point, no matter what medium he chose to deliver it in. I know nothing about the privacy of post sentencing regarding remorse, apologies privately conducted....I know nothing of his outreach to victims or their families one way or another. I would wager most wouldn't know either. All we have is his public persona.
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Post by swissgas on Mar 13, 2021 19:51:11 GMT
Although the occasional long shot does come off most of the time..... If you're using JAB as a metaphor for a long shot, I think most supporting views would take that.. Yes, it’s an ill thought through long shot which was convenient and fits with Wael’s yearning for association with celebrities. He is a custodian of the club and in my time I think all our owners have taken that responsibility seriously. Mearns- Milne and Co passed the club on to Flook and Bradshaw who were two wealthy fans. When they failed they handed the club to the Dunfords. When Geoff could go no further he passed the club to Nick Higgs another wealthy Gashead. And when it all got too much for Nick he thought he was transferring Rovers to a family which would uphold the previous traditions and had the means to take us forward with a new stadium. I agree with you that most reasonable supporters accept JAB as a long shot because they are not convinced about his managerial track record and they know he is a volatile character who could explode at any moment. They are used to Rovers taking long shots and them not coming off and expect that is the way it will always be. But I don’t think many Gasheads understand what the nature of this appointment could really mean for Rovers. The Wael I think most fans thought we had last June would have made a different appointment and said to us “ my vision is sincere but we need to make a change in the football structure. We are continuing with the strategy which began with Ben Garner and in the short term this may mean pain for us all but I am convinced that in the long term it will lead to success for Rovers”. If he had done that I think most fans would have supported him and we would be much more united. But this appointment shows, in a very crude way, that he puts his own interests before the club or the fans. As far as we know he is gambling with his own money so he can actually do what he likes. But from what has now happened we must learn that when the time comes, as it does for every owner, we should not expect him to make a decision based on what is best for our club and the Rovers community as a whole.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 19:52:49 GMT
Unfortunately even as of last Tuesday he thinks there's humour to be made out of an occurrence which left 2 people injured and him in prison, so it doesn't sound as if he's started any kind of journey into a period of serious self reflection and repentance. It sounded more like self aggrandisation with zero thought for the victims to me. How do you suppose the people he attacked would feel if they heard him referencing that incident as part of an interview, laughing, and knowing that he was doing that interview as part of his employment T&Cs, so was being paid for it? The other sad thing about that is that I'll wager that he didn't get a call that night from anybody within the club telling him that was unacceptable. What have we become? Yes I can see how that comment could be construed that way, but honestly I don't think that was premeditated or intended that way [about prison] that's what I inferred. I think it was Holloway-esque, and self depreciating humour, and tastefully delivered as in "let's laugh at me, not with me" does have it's own niche. Humour can actually be used therapeutically. For me, the comments weren't unacceptable. JAB was putting into context the poor referee decision, and looking back over highlights he has a point, no matter what medium he chose to deliver it in. I know nothing about the privacy of post sentencing regarding remorse, apologies privately conducted....I know nothing of his outreach to victims or their families one way or another. I would wager most wouldn't know either. All we have is his public persona. I agree, he almost certainly meant no harm with his prison comment, but if he was taking professional counselling he may well realise that it's not really an appropriate topic for humour in that way, certainly not whilst representing a professional organisation. Maybe there has been an attempt at contact with those left behind by the murder of that officer, but I'm struggling with that as a concept as Barton seems very keen on promoting himself and sounded desperate to tell the world what a great guy the murderer is, so by logical extension one would imagine he would also mention any such event? Anyway, I guess we have some kind of media dept, wasn't Gorringe being given credit for communication, so presume that the interview meets the club's standards.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Mar 14, 2021 9:15:25 GMT
If you're using JAB as a metaphor for a long shot, I think most supporting views would take that.. Yes, it’s an ill thought through long shot which was convenient and fits with Wael’s yearning for association with celebrities. He is a custodian of the club and in my time I think all our owners have taken that responsibility seriously. Mearns- Milne and Co passed the club on to Flook and Bradshaw who were two wealthy fans. When they failed they handed the club to the Dunfords. When Geoff could go no further he passed the club to Nick Higgs another wealthy Gashead. And when it all got too much for Nick he thought he was transferring Rovers to a family which would uphold the previous traditions and had the means to take us forward with a new stadium. I agree with you that most reasonable supporters accept JAB as a long shot because they are not convinced about his managerial track record and they know he is a volatile character who could explode at any moment. They are used to Rovers taking long shots and them not coming off and expect that is the way it will always be. But I don’t think many Gasheads understand what the nature of this appointment could really mean for Rovers. The Wael I think most fans thought we had last June would have made a different appointment and said to us “ my vision is sincere but we need to make a change in the football structure. We are continuing with the strategy which began with Ben Garner and in the short term this may mean pain for us all but I am convinced that in the long term it will lead to success for Rovers”. If he had done that I think most fans would have supported him and we would be much more united. But this appointment shows, in a very crude way, that he puts his own interests before the club or the fans. As far as we know he is gambling with his own money so he can actually do what he likes. But from what has now happened we must learn that when the time comes, as it does for every owner, we should not expect him to make a decision based on what is best for our club and the Rovers community as a whole. I like that post. Tbh, I like alot of Swiss posts. And, yep I kinda concur with the last bit because if it was my money I was wasting, I would retain the culture of the club and bring in staff to fit in with that, not the other way around. And I do see it's a risky appointment because some our culture and representative identity have been compromised already. It's an uphill battle to change minds, maybe it's going to take alot of time and attention during a rough ride? Maybe nothing will be enough? Maybe it will all implode? Maybe the justice system will do a job for the club? Who knows? What is important outside the internal running of the club, is the only defunding of the club (so far) has come from a minority of disgruntled fans. Sponsorship, suppliers, corporate, all marketing initiatives suggest they are not withdrawing their name from our product. In fact, quite the opposite..... negotiations must be in the pipeline regarding Thatcher's, Butcombe, Macron as their 3 year terms are up and I think are content to carry on their association. These are local and/or international global products that understand what Bristol Rovers are all about and appear to be content to keep that association going. If it appears to be good enough for them, why not the JAB denyers? All I see is potential. A potential for JAB to start afresh in a different area. A potential to reform. A potential for our club to stay in 3rd division. A potential to unite the fanbase much in the DC style. A potential to be successful. It's going to take a ton of work in adversity. But isn't that in someway the Rovers way?
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Post by swissgas on Mar 14, 2021 17:10:58 GMT
Yes, it’s an ill thought through long shot which was convenient and fits with Wael’s yearning for association with celebrities. He is a custodian of the club and in my time I think all our owners have taken that responsibility seriously. Mearns- Milne and Co passed the club on to Flook and Bradshaw who were two wealthy fans. When they failed they handed the club to the Dunfords. When Geoff could go no further he passed the club to Nick Higgs another wealthy Gashead. And when it all got too much for Nick he thought he was transferring Rovers to a family which would uphold the previous traditions and had the means to take us forward with a new stadium. I agree with you that most reasonable supporters accept JAB as a long shot because they are not convinced about his managerial track record and they know he is a volatile character who could explode at any moment. They are used to Rovers taking long shots and them not coming off and expect that is the way it will always be. But I don’t think many Gasheads understand what the nature of this appointment could really mean for Rovers. The Wael I think most fans thought we had last June would have made a different appointment and said to us “ my vision is sincere but we need to make a change in the football structure. We are continuing with the strategy which began with Ben Garner and in the short term this may mean pain for us all but I am convinced that in the long term it will lead to success for Rovers”. If he had done that I think most fans would have supported him and we would be much more united. But this appointment shows, in a very crude way, that he puts his own interests before the club or the fans. As far as we know he is gambling with his own money so he can actually do what he likes. But from what has now happened we must learn that when the time comes, as it does for every owner, we should not expect him to make a decision based on what is best for our club and the Rovers community as a whole. I like that post. Tbh, I like alot of Swiss posts. And, yep I kinda concur with the last bit because if it was my money I was wasting, I would retain the culture of the club and bring in staff to fit in with that, not the other way around. And I do see it's a risky appointment because some our culture and representative identity have been compromised already. It's an uphill battle to change minds, maybe it's going to take alot of time and attention during a rough ride? Maybe nothing will be enough? Maybe it will all implode? Maybe the justice system will do a job for the club? Who knows? What is important outside the internal running of the club, is the only defunding of the club (so far) has come from a minority of disgruntled fans. Sponsorship, suppliers, corporate, all marketing initiatives suggest they are not withdrawing their name from our product. In fact, quite the opposite..... negotiations must be in the pipeline regarding Thatcher's, Butcombe, Macron as their 3 year terms are up and I think are content to carry on their association. These are local and/or international global products that understand what Bristol Rovers are all about and appear to be content to keep that association going. If it appears to be good enough for them, why not the JAB denyers? All I see is potential. A potential for JAB to start afresh in a different area. A potential to reform. A potential for our club to stay in 3rd division. A potential to unite the fanbase much in the DC style. A potential to be successful. It's going to take a ton of work in adversity. But isn't that in someway the Rovers way? Thanks, I’m glad you manage to navigate the verbal diarrhea and find something useful in my posts. It is a challenge to put across how I feel without sounding too gloomy but the way Rovers is run as a business is the antithesis of the way I’ve always tried to operate. The commercial revenue the club generates is an interesting subject which has never been properly explained. When I’ve suggested that Tom Gorringe’s performance should be measured in real terms it’s not a dig at Tom it’s purely a call for transparency so we can see what is going on. If his sponsorship and advertising deals are bringing in increasing net revenue then good for him and let’s hear more about it. But if the costs of his department are close to the revenue it brings in let’s explore the reasons why and see if the fan base can help him increase profits. Keeping us in the dark makes people like me suspicious but it allows the jolly fans who don’t want the burden of thinking about these matters to point to the increasing Instagram hits and new advertising at the ground and reassure themselves that “we must be doing well”. JAB’s appointment will increase media interest in Rovers and maybe that can be used to attract more advertisers but, following the same logic, should we encourage him to act more outrageously so we gain even more advertisers ? We don’t know whether the commercial department actually makes a profit and we don’t know what effect JAB’ appointment will have either way The latest accounts format shows that steps have been taken to keep the way the club is funded even more hidden. One of the reason for this may be to perpetuate the perception that we are entirely dependent on Wael and that we have a duty to be grateful to him. I can remember debating this years ago when we were told we owed everything to Nick Higgs and it didn’t take much to figure out that the amount fans had contributed through ticket purchases over the years far outweighed what Nick or any other owner had put in. Something which may be of interest is the Premier League contribution to Rovers linked here resources.premierleague.com/premierleague/document/2020/12/16/817902e2-3f1b-40aa-bdf4-9538e11625d0/Premier-League-funding-to-EFL-clubs-Bristol-Rovers.pdfWe could talk about potential all day but you are right in making the connection between work and realizing potential as opposed to throwing in money to realize potential. I’m sorry to be so blunt but I don’t think Wael is a hard worker and I suspect the same of Martyn Starnes. When a hard worker makes a presentation he uses his time and energy to research the subject, he is prepared with detailed facts and figures and he is able to make the presentation in an assured and convincing way. That is not what we see from our two top men and I think it’s reasonable to assume if that is how they work when presenting the public face of Rovers then that is how they work behind the scenes. We have to make our own minds up about whether we think JAB and his team are hard workers. I tend to think hard workers stay at a workplace for a longer than average time because their contribution is valued and that hard workers quietly get on with the job rather than talk about themselves and what they are going to do. But in this case we should be watching and listening and assessing results to form an opinion rather than letting wishful thinking cloud our judgement. Whatever the attributes of the key people at the club I am sure our potential will never be realized if they don’t work hard enough.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 11:40:40 GMT
I’m sorry to be so blunt but I don’t think Wael is a hard worker and I suspect the same of Martyn Starnes. What a load of Boll*x
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Post by a more piratey game on Mar 15, 2021 11:43:09 GMT
I’m sorry to be so blunt but I don’t think Wael is a hard worker and I suspect the same of Martyn Starnes. What a load of Boll*x I think contradiction wins the blunt-off there
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 11:44:41 GMT
I’m sorry to be so blunt but I don’t think Wael is a hard worker and I suspect the same of Martyn Starnes. What a load of Boll*x Thank you for your views Martyn.
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bloogas
Joined: July 2016
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Post by bloogas on Mar 15, 2021 11:49:03 GMT
I’m sorry to be so blunt but I don’t think Wael is a hard worker and I suspect the same of Martyn Starnes. What a load of Boll*x I don't know about boll****. Patronising, condescending, supercilious, snotty even. Probably said without any real knowledge. But hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 12:00:20 GMT
I think the reason that only fans seem interested in publicising the training ground may be because the club are embarrassed over the way it is being developed. I agree the size of the site offers huge potential but is a gym in an old barn and a 4000 square foot club house to a 1990 design what we expect from a professional football club in 2021 ? Many months ago Wael waved a piece of paper to participants at a Zoom conference which he said contained the new design of the inside of the club house, the analysis suite etc, but despite promises they have never been revealed to us. The gym was shown very briefly in an interview with George Williams and, to say the least, it did not look very impressive. The construction work has meandered on at a snails pace for many months when with any normal development of this size it would have been completed much more quickly. And no plans or artists impressions have ever been offered to show how the training ground will look when it is finished. The defensiveness of the club was illustrated when a spokesmen said a few weeks ago (echoing Womble's words) that the club house could be extended in size in the future. Is this a normal thing to say when the building isn't yet finished ? Surely you would assess what your space requirements will be in the foreseeable future and build to that size. The only explanation for using 1990 plans rather that commissioning new bespoke ones would be to allow a quick construction timescale but that has certainly not been the case. IMO there is something not right about this development. Even more Boll*x. Swiss, is it really correct you were connected to the club in the Twerton days? When we trained on a field at Frys that 2 or 3 time a seasons was underwater meaning we had nowhere to train at all ? "Something is not right with this development"
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bloogas
Joined: July 2016
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Post by bloogas on Mar 15, 2021 13:13:28 GMT
Swiss, is it really correct you were connected to the club in the Twerton days? When we trained on a field at Frys that 2 or 3 time a seasons was underwater meaning we had nowhere to train at all ? "Something is not right with this development" It's what I've been led to believe. Nothing wrong with that, but there does seem to be some curious agenda.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 14:12:06 GMT
I think the reason that only fans seem interested in publicising the training ground may be because the club are embarrassed over the way it is being developed. I agree the size of the site offers huge potential but is a gym in an old barn and a 4000 square foot club house to a 1990 design what we expect from a professional football club in 2021 ? Many months ago Wael waved a piece of paper to participants at a Zoom conference which he said contained the new design of the inside of the club house, the analysis suite etc, but despite promises they have never been revealed to us. The gym was shown very briefly in an interview with George Williams and, to say the least, it did not look very impressive. The construction work has meandered on at a snails pace for many months when with any normal development of this size it would have been completed much more quickly. And no plans or artists impressions have ever been offered to show how the training ground will look when it is finished. The defensiveness of the club was illustrated when a spokesmen said a few weeks ago (echoing Womble's words) that the club house could be extended in size in the future. Is this a normal thing to say when the building isn't yet finished ? Surely you would assess what your space requirements will be in the foreseeable future and build to that size. The only explanation for using 1990 plans rather that commissioning new bespoke ones would be to allow a quick construction timescale but that has certainly not been the case. IMO there is something not right about this development. Even more Boll*x. Swiss, is it really correct you were connected to the club in the Twerton days? When we trained on a field at Frys that 2 or 3 time a seasons was underwater meaning we had nowhere to train at all ? "Something is not right with this development" The same days that we played football at the top end of the third tier and won automatic promotion to the second tier, yep those days. To be fair we did move our training to a training ground owned by one of our owners other companies just like we will be doing at The Quarters so I can't say our standards have been lowered. At least the clubs owners own the stadium we play in these days but credit for that must go to the owners from our Twerton days. All in all, they weren't a bad bunch.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 14:32:31 GMT
I think the reason that only fans seem interested in publicising the training ground may be because the club are embarrassed over the way it is being developed. I agree the size of the site offers huge potential but is a gym in an old barn and a 4000 square foot club house to a 1990 design what we expect from a professional football club in 2021 ? Many months ago Wael waved a piece of paper to participants at a Zoom conference which he said contained the new design of the inside of the club house, the analysis suite etc, but despite promises they have never been revealed to us. The gym was shown very briefly in an interview with George Williams and, to say the least, it did not look very impressive. The construction work has meandered on at a snails pace for many months when with any normal development of this size it would have been completed much more quickly. And no plans or artists impressions have ever been offered to show how the training ground will look when it is finished. The defensiveness of the club was illustrated when a spokesmen said a few weeks ago (echoing Womble's words) that the club house could be extended in size in the future. Is this a normal thing to say when the building isn't yet finished ? Surely you would assess what your space requirements will be in the foreseeable future and build to that size. The only explanation for using 1990 plans rather that commissioning new bespoke ones would be to allow a quick construction timescale but that has certainly not been the case. IMO there is something not right about this development. Even more Boll*x. Swiss, is it really correct you were connected to the club in the Twerton days? When we trained on a field at Frys that 2 or 3 time a seasons was underwater meaning we had nowhere to train at all ? "Something is not right with this development" Other than save the club from extinction and get us into the second tier for the final time in 30 years, what did that board ever do for us?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 14:33:59 GMT
Even more Boll*x. Swiss, is it really correct you were connected to the club in the Twerton days? When we trained on a field at Frys that 2 or 3 time a seasons was underwater meaning we had nowhere to train at all ? "Something is not right with this development" Other than save the club from extinction and get us into the second tier for the final time in 30 years, what did that board ever do for us? Bought us a new home in Bristol?
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Post by swissgas on Mar 15, 2021 14:54:13 GMT
I’m sorry to be so blunt but I don’t think Wael is a hard worker and I suspect the same of Martyn Starnes. What a load of Boll*x How are your Crypto investments doing contradiction ? I gave very specific reasons for my thinking that Wael and Martyn are not hard workers. Can you give reasons why you think they are hard workers ?
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Post by swissgas on Mar 15, 2021 15:04:54 GMT
I think the reason that only fans seem interested in publicising the training ground may be because the club are embarrassed over the way it is being developed. I agree the size of the site offers huge potential but is a gym in an old barn and a 4000 square foot club house to a 1990 design what we expect from a professional football club in 2021 ? Many months ago Wael waved a piece of paper to participants at a Zoom conference which he said contained the new design of the inside of the club house, the analysis suite etc, but despite promises they have never been revealed to us. The gym was shown very briefly in an interview with George Williams and, to say the least, it did not look very impressive. The construction work has meandered on at a snails pace for many months when with any normal development of this size it would have been completed much more quickly. And no plans or artists impressions have ever been offered to show how the training ground will look when it is finished. The defensiveness of the club was illustrated when a spokesmen said a few weeks ago (echoing Womble's words) that the club house could be extended in size in the future. Is this a normal thing to say when the building isn't yet finished ? Surely you would assess what your space requirements will be in the foreseeable future and build to that size. The only explanation for using 1990 plans rather that commissioning new bespoke ones would be to allow a quick construction timescale but that has certainly not been the case. IMO there is something not right about this development. Even more Boll*x. Swiss, is it really correct you were connected to the club in the Twerton days? When we trained on a field at Frys that 2 or 3 time a seasons was underwater meaning we had nowhere to train at all ? "Something is not right with this development" Yes, I was a shareholder and director in the days when we won the League, we had the finances under control and we paid our bills on time. Again, I've given specific reasons why I think something is not right with the training ground development. Can you give the reasons why you think the way it is being done is the way a project of this type would normally be carried out ?
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Post by emperorsuperbus on Mar 15, 2021 19:00:25 GMT
My opinion of Joey Barton as a football manager is growing in the right way with what I am seeing on the pitch.
But I have no evidence of anything away from static camera showing me each match to know he is managing all aspects very well. I am still of opinion I wouldn’t have hired him. The argument is similar to what Merson said about Arteta today. Leaving out star man for misdemeanour sends clear message not mixed message to young players, whilst hiring a manager with so much violence and football ban for betting on CV cannot provide the right leadership or clear message.
Tommy, Starnes and Wael all have to go ASAP for the clueless mess of managing a football club. They are turning this club into one with the wrong sort of DNA.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2021 15:52:06 GMT
Even more Boll*x. Swiss, is it really correct you were connected to the club in the Twerton days? When we trained on a field at Frys that 2 or 3 time a seasons was underwater meaning we had nowhere to train at all ? "Something is not right with this development" Yes, I was a shareholder and director in the days when we won the League, we had the finances under control and we paid our bills on time. Again, I've given specific reasons why I think something is not right with the training ground development. Can you give the reasons why you think the way it is being done is the way a project of this type would normally be carried out ? I don't wish to Swiss. A couple of reasons: a) There is no need, as its clearly going to be a top class facility. That is obvious to everyone. b) Discussing it further will only prolong your continual negativity and bitterness (bordering on hatred it would seem) of the owners who are providing a better training facility than the club has ever had.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
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Post by kingswood Polak on Mar 16, 2021 20:47:01 GMT
Yes, I was a shareholder and director in the days when we won the League, we had the finances under control and we paid our bills on time. Again, I've given specific reasons why I think something is not right with the training ground development. Can you give the reasons why you think the way it is being done is the way a project of this type would normally be carried out ? I don't wish to Swiss. A couple of reasons: a) There is no need, as its clearly going to be a top class facility. That is obvious to everyone. b) Discussing it further will only prolong your continual negativity and bitterness (bordering on hatred it would seem) of the owners who are providing a better training facility than the club has ever had. Please show where there has been ANY bordering on hatred content. One thing Swiss does is give alternatives and reasons and not just sweeping accusations.
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