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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 13:27:50 GMT
I think it's been said so many times now that it's getting a bit more than tedious. He hasn't been employed to paint the steps on the terraces, he's the public face of the club, and has been given this role with a court case scheduled for the same thing that has troubled him his entire life, and which, when you listen to him or read elements of his book, he attempts to glorify. Here's an example. He talks about a dog biting him, his Father found out, so ran the dog over with his car, then reversed over it again, just to make sure it was dead. Then confronted the dog's owner and told him, in no uncertain terms that the best thing he could do was get back inside of his house. Barton says that at the time he thought it was, I can't remember exactly what he says, something like 'a bit harsh' but then he says that he later realised that it was just his Dad's way of preparing him for the life he expected him to live in Liverpool. Has he condemned that act? Nope. Nowhere that I've been able to find. I looked at all of the headline stories about that Police officer's murder yesterday. Barton has plenty to say, mostly about himself and violence, but what was missing were words of sympathy or comfort for the victim's family and friends. Now of course it's possible that he did have those words and the media, being the scum that they are, chose not to use them in their pieces, but I couldn't find them and would have thought that he would have gone out of his way to object and make sure that it was crystal clear to everybody that the victim's family and friends were the main focus of his thoughts. But instead of that what we got was talk about violence and what a great guy the killer now is. I mean, seriously? Does your post expect anyone to condone or glorify those actions? Whether they were from a head coach or painter or turnstile operator? If it's wrong, it's wrong, whatever the position? Or do morals start stop depending on the person or the post the take up? Or how many times they've transgressed the law? The club have employed/associated with criminals before, they will do after.....it is tedious, but true. The point being, as has been made multiple times, nobody has suggested that rehabilitation shouldn't be encouraged, and I for one would be more than happy to hear that Rovers were part of schemes giving people a 'second chance'. But, and there's always a but, in a controlled way so that everybody's safety was ensured, and I most certainly wouldn't put someone with a court case of this type scheduled straight into a position where they are the public face of the club. Any thoughts on that dog incident or his lack of empathy for the family and friends of the murdered Police officer?
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o2o2bo2ba
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Mar 13, 2021 13:36:11 GMT
I mean, seriously? Does your post expect anyone to condone or glorify those actions? Whether they were from a head coach or painter or turnstile operator? If it's wrong, it's wrong, whatever the position? Or do morals start stop depending on the person or the post the take up? Or how many times they've transgressed the law? The club have employed/associated with criminals before, they will do after.....it is tedious, but true. Any thoughts on that dog incident or his lack of empathy for the family and friends of the murdered Police officer? Complete abhorrence.
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o2o2bo2ba
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Mar 13, 2021 13:38:36 GMT
I mean, seriously? Does your post expect anyone to condone or glorify those actions? Whether they were from a head coach or painter or turnstile operator? If it's wrong, it's wrong, whatever the position? Or do morals start stop depending on the person or the post the take up? Or how many times they've transgressed the law? The club have employed/associated with criminals before, they will do after.....it is tedious, but true. The point being, as has been made multiple times, nobody has suggested that rehabilitation shouldn't be encouraged, and I for one would be more than happy to hear that Rovers were part of schemes giving people a 'second chance'. But, and there's always a but, in a controlled way so that everybody's safety was ensured, and I most certainly wouldn't put someone with a court case of this type scheduled straight into a position where they are the public face of the club. Any thoughts on that dog incident or his lack of empathy for the family and friends of the murdered Police officer? Any thoughts on the Accrington win?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 13:46:00 GMT
The point being, as has been made multiple times, nobody has suggested that rehabilitation shouldn't be encouraged, and I for one would be more than happy to hear that Rovers were part of schemes giving people a 'second chance'. But, and there's always a but, in a controlled way so that everybody's safety was ensured, and I most certainly wouldn't put someone with a court case of this type scheduled straight into a position where they are the public face of the club. Any thoughts on that dog incident or his lack of empathy for the family and friends of the murdered Police officer? Any thoughts on the Accrington win? Already given my thought on that. Not too interested in what happens to the club in football terms whilst Punchy and his yob mates are here, holding the positions they do, but was delighted that people that I've shared a common bond with over decades would have gained pleasure from Tuesday's victory.
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TaiwanGas
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Post by TaiwanGas on Mar 13, 2021 13:47:10 GMT
I'm starting to wonder if Barton and his ever growing entourage have more interests in Bristol Rovers FC than just the playing side.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 13:51:01 GMT
Any thoughts on that dog incident or his lack of empathy for the family and friends of the murdered Police officer? Complete abhorrence. This just shows how people will tie themselves up in knots to defend the indefensible. BTW, I know that you found that stuff sickening, of course, and it wasn't particularly nice of me to pose that question in that way, you've never given as much as a hint that you are anything other than a thoroughly decent person. It's just that situations like this are emotionally very complicated, you are being asked to find a way to work with a dreadful hand that's been dealt, or feel disloyal to the football club that's a huge part of your life. Wael should never have put you in that position.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 13:51:46 GMT
Any thoughts on that dog incident or his lack of empathy for the family and friends of the murdered Police officer? Complete abhorrence. Ditto. To read how wonderful Barton feels about his friend who was convicted of the manslaughter of the off duty police officer followed by the grief of the widow on the 5th anniversary of his death made me feel sick. I hope that Wael has been catching up on all of these abhorrent incidents as I do not believe that he was aware of the back catalogue before the appointments of the Barton gang.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 13:53:27 GMT
Sorry, got a lot of time for your posts and perspective on the Barton debate but for me it’s totally over reaching to compare employing a criminal with taking money from criminals! You can’t ban criminals from an economy, nor should you. We all, I’’m sure, agree that criminals should be allowed to re-integrate into society and that there is a place for Barton in it. It’s just a totally different debate whether a criminal who is on his 3,547th chance should be allowed to hold such a prominent position that involves him doing media work and representing a football club that has a family stand and is involved in community initiatives where there is no place for impromptu tooth extractions. I was using an exaggeration to make a point.....and if it's 3,547th chance you've used the same principle! It appears we can employ/associate with criminals as long as they don't hold certain positions within the club, no matter how talented or good at their job they are, or their ability to be the best candidate. JAB has served his sentences, done his time and deserves the opportunity to prove or disprove his worth fairly. I see it as a form of discrimination, otherwise. With polarisation in views, from a neutral pov is starting to look like is some are actually frightened he might actually be able do a good job? Whether he does or doesn’t do a good job is immaterial to his character and imo, whether he should be our manager. Imo the absolute worst are the fans whose opinions on Barton solely rest on whether he wins football matches. I promise you I will not be singing his praises if he gets Rovers promoted. He will still, ultimately, be the sort of person the club should not have touched. Footballing success is secondary to my principles and quite literally no number of wins will launder his reputation in my eyes because imo we have had to completely sell out in order to get those wins. I can brag to my City friends all I like but when they inevitably retort “yeah but Joey Barton is your manager” I won’t be able to give any sort of comeback because I will know exactly what they mean and deep down I will know they are right.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 13:54:19 GMT
I'm starting to wonder if Barton and his ever growing entourage have more interests in Bristol Rovers FC than just the playing side. I notice that Stephen Vaughan Jnr is also in the contacts list and was sent down for aiding Bartons mates getaway to mainland Europe after the policeman killing. He and his Father have football history, check out Chester City.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 13:58:01 GMT
Also does anyone else feel even worse about the situation now a conversation has erupted about men and violence due to the poor girl in London?
In defence of men in general a statistic is being quoted that men suffer from violence more so than women, something like 2% vs 1.6% and our contribution to this conversation is to recently hire a man with a long history of violence who is awaiting a court appearance for a charge of ABH.
I feel embarrassed by the club while this conversation is going on, quite frankly. Especially given that there is a significant proportion of our fanbase who seem to revel in Barton’s past actions.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 14:08:29 GMT
All violence is bad, of course, but I'm not aware of Barton himself being involved in anything where a female was the victim, so let's not conflate arguments here or everything gets diluted.
The discussion about whether it's safe for females to walk the streets in certain areas, or whether Men or Women are more likely to be victims of violence, and in those cases whether the aggressor is more likely to be male or female is maybe one for the General Chat section?
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o2o2bo2ba
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Mar 13, 2021 14:15:09 GMT
This just shows how people will tie themselves up in knots to defend the indefensible. BTW, I know that you found that stuff sickening, of course, and it wasn't particularly nice of me to pose that question in that way, you've never given as much as a hint that you are anything other than a thoroughly decent person. It's just that situations like this are emotionally very complicated, you are being asked to find a way to work with a dreadful hand that's been dealt, or feel disloyal to the football club that's a huge part of your life. Wael should never have put you in that position. I understand your empathetic post towards me or folk with similar views. I've always maintained my neutral stance towards JAB appointment, because I think I'm objective in (like you post) difficult emotional circumstances. I disagree one necessary leads to another. In fact, I think it's healthy being able to see why some support what he brings to the club whilst acknowledging what complete destruction he's left behind. Defending the indefensible is anyone condoning what JAB has done....in all my posts I've never done that, but it appears I'm guilty by association or not being vocally with you. That's a shame. That's divisive. My stance is again neutral, a bit like a civil service that serves the people whomever is in government.....I know it's a poor analogy, but I think your post however well meaning, is unfair. There is a niche of being able to separate support for the club, whilst observing that some that serve it don't harbour the best virtues in life or meet the standards I personally set. They are different and it's only fair to recognise that.
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warehamgas
Predictions League
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Post by warehamgas on Mar 13, 2021 14:19:30 GMT
Any thoughts on the Accrington win? Already given my thought on that. Not too interested in what happens to the club in football terms whilst Punchy and his yob mates are here, holding the positions they do, but was delighted that people that I've shared a common bond with over decades would have gained pleasure from Tuesday's victory. I hope my view on JB is clear and I don’t particularly want him as our manager. But for the sake of balance I’m not aware that Andy Mangan nor Clint Hill the people he has brought with him so far (unless I’ve missed anyone else) to work with him have been guilty of anything that earns them being classified as “yob mates”. Seems a bit unfair on them to be classified as such by association. UTG!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 14:21:17 GMT
All violence is bad, of course, but I'm not aware of Barton himself being involved in anything where a female was the victim, so let's not conflate arguments here or everything gets diluted. The discussion about whether it's safe for females to walk the streets in certain areas, or whether Men or Women are more likely to be victims of violence, and in those cases whether the aggressor is more likely to be male or female is maybe one for the General Chat section? I’m not conflating, what I’m clearly saying is that Barton has contributed many times to the statistical fact that men are the victims of violence more often than women. People are talking about violence on men at the moment at precisely the time that Rovers have employed Barton. I’m embarrassed about that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 14:46:52 GMT
This just shows how people will tie themselves up in knots to defend the indefensible. BTW, I know that you found that stuff sickening, of course, and it wasn't particularly nice of me to pose that question in that way, you've never given as much as a hint that you are anything other than a thoroughly decent person. It's just that situations like this are emotionally very complicated, you are being asked to find a way to work with a dreadful hand that's been dealt, or feel disloyal to the football club that's a huge part of your life. Wael should never have put you in that position. I understand your empathetic post towards me or folk with similar views. I've always maintained my neutral stance towards JAB appointment, because I think I'm objective in (like you post) difficult emotional circumstances. I disagree one necessary leads to another. In fact, I think it's healthy being able to see why some support what he brings to the club whilst acknowledging what complete destruction he's left behind. Defending the indefensible is anyone condoning what JAB has done....in all my posts I've never done that, but it appears I'm guilty by association or not being vocally with you. That's a shame. That's divisive. My stance is again neutral, a bit like a civil service that serves the people whomever is in government.....I know it's a poor analogy, but I think your post however well meaning, is unfair. There is a niche of being able to separate support for the club, whilst observing that some that serve it don't harbour the best virtues in life or meet the standards I personally set. They are different and it's only fair to recognise that. Posts are always going to be the opinion of the writer, we are divided on this topic, that's been clear for some time. I'll try to be more careful with my language because it's been a pleasure discussing this with you and I don't want to do anything that causes upset or tension. For me I just can't think past how it's possible to not oppose his appointment, given his history, and how he appears to me to almost delight in telling tales of things that he's been involved in which the majority of us, I would imagine, have no experience of whatsoever. Add to that, I'm not aware of him having had a moment where he's suddenly decided to distance himself from revelling in the notoriety of 'glories past', he was still at it on Tuesday, trying to make jokes relating to being sent to prison for assaulting 2 people in 1 night.
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o2o2bo2ba
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Mar 13, 2021 17:22:28 GMT
I understand your empathetic post towards me or folk with similar views. I've always maintained my neutral stance towards JAB appointment, because I think I'm objective in (like you post) difficult emotional circumstances. I disagree one necessary leads to another. In fact, I think it's healthy being able to see why some support what he brings to the club whilst acknowledging what complete destruction he's left behind. Defending the indefensible is anyone condoning what JAB has done....in all my posts I've never done that, but it appears I'm guilty by association or not being vocally with you. That's a shame. That's divisive. My stance is again neutral, a bit like a civil service that serves the people whomever is in government.....I know it's a poor analogy, but I think your post however well meaning, is unfair. There is a niche of being able to separate support for the club, whilst observing that some that serve it don't harbour the best virtues in life or meet the standards I personally set. They are different and it's only fair to recognise that. For me I just can't think past how it's possible to not oppose his appointment, given his history.... Is this your opinion, no matter what? Is there anything JAB can do/say/be to change your mind on this? Thanks for the courtesy of enjoying debate. I'm not here to change anyone's mind, but I do enjoy exploring concepts and philosophies. Thanks for kind words that are reciprocating to all sides that are happy to engage about this.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 17:30:53 GMT
For me I just can't think past how it's possible to not oppose his appointment, given his history.... Is this your opinion, no matter what? Is there anything JAB can do/say/be to change your mind on this? Thanks for the courtesy of enjoying debate. I'm not here to change anyone's mind, but I do enjoy exploring concepts and philosophies. Thanks for kind words that are reciprocating to all sides that are happy to engage about this. I think I've made it very clear where I am. For me to accept him as part of 'my club' he would need to convince me that he's found a way to put his violent past behind him, and acknowledge that everything about that way of life is just wrong, that includes showing off about it interviews and profiting from it by incorporating aspects of it into a book, unless of course it's a 'road to redemption' book, which his clearly wasn't. I keep saying, I have no ill will towards the guy and wish him nothing but happiness, but he's tarnished the name of the football club that I love, and to hear him make jokes about being sent to prison during part of his official duties on behalf of my club, when what got him that custodial sentence was a vicious attack on 1 person where he continued the assault after his victim was flat out on the floor and then followed that up by attacking a 16 year old, well, it's nauseating. He's a troubled individual who gives the impression that he's a long long way from even understanding how normal people view the way he's lived his life.
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o2o2bo2ba
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Mar 13, 2021 18:37:52 GMT
Is this your opinion, no matter what? Is there anything JAB can do/say/be to change your mind on this? Thanks for the courtesy of enjoying debate. I'm not here to change anyone's mind, but I do enjoy exploring concepts and philosophies. Thanks for kind words that are reciprocating to all sides that are happy to engage about this. I think I've made it very clear where I am. For me to accept him as part of 'my club' he would need to convince me that he's found a way to put his violent past behind him, and acknowledge that everything about that way of life is just wrong, that includes showing off about it interviews and profiting from it by incorporating aspects of it into a book, unless of course it's a 'road to redemption' book, which his clearly wasn't. I keep saying, I have no ill will towards the guy and wish him nothing but happiness, but he's tarnished the name of the football club that I love, and to hear him make jokes about being sent to prison during part of his official duties on behalf of my club, when what got him that custodial sentence was a vicious attack on 1 person where he continued the assault after his victim was flat out on the floor and then followed that up by attacking a 16 year old, well, it's nauseating. He's a troubled individual who gives the impression that he's a long long way from even understanding how normal people view the way he's lived his life. Be very careful how you view "normal people" and what that means! Some utterly disgraceful past occurrences, no doubt. And I agree, to not renounce or address each wrongdoing kinda compounds the issue. In my opinion. That's his personal life, some may judge that relevant, others might not so much. There have been green shoots of nice approach since JAB arrival. It's a start. Only time will tell whether he is as truly troubled as you say.... maybe there's help sought as we communicate? Maybe there's a new leaf in a different part of the country for him that will offer him a different way? Maybe spending time out of his usual patch will make him view on his past differently? Maybe he'll grow up? Who knows? What I think is important is, he has the opportunity to prove it to himself. To be a decent human being and learn from previous misgivings. We can help him. This opportunity presented could be the biggest turning point in his (and our) lives where the virtue of value towards his fellow person is understood and reflected on. Even if it after 3,500 chances.... That's how I see it, so far. Opportunities for all parties to learn.
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Post by swissgas on Mar 13, 2021 18:50:42 GMT
I think I've made it very clear where I am. For me to accept him as part of 'my club' he would need to convince me that he's found a way to put his violent past behind him, and acknowledge that everything about that way of life is just wrong, that includes showing off about it interviews and profiting from it by incorporating aspects of it into a book, unless of course it's a 'road to redemption' book, which his clearly wasn't. I keep saying, I have no ill will towards the guy and wish him nothing but happiness, but he's tarnished the name of the football club that I love, and to hear him make jokes about being sent to prison during part of his official duties on behalf of my club, when what got him that custodial sentence was a vicious attack on 1 person where he continued the assault after his victim was flat out on the floor and then followed that up by attacking a 16 year old, well, it's nauseating. He's a troubled individual who gives the impression that he's a long long way from even understanding how normal people view the way he's lived his life. Be very careful how you view "normal people" and what that means! Some utterly disgraceful past occurrences, no doubt. And I agree, to not renounce or address each wrongdoing kinda compounds the issue. In my opinion. That's his personal life, some may judge that relevant, others might not so much. There have been green shoots of nice approach since JAB arrival. It's a start. Only time will tell whether he is as truly troubled as you say.... maybe there's help sought as we communicate? Maybe there's a new leaf in a different part of the country for him that will offer him a different way? Maybe spending time out of his usual patch will make him view on his past differently? Maybe he'll grow up? Who knows? What I think is important is, he has the opportunity to prove it to himself. To be a decent human being and learn from previous misgivings. We can help him. This opportunity presented could be the biggest turning point in his (and our) lives where the virtue of value towards his fellow person is understood and reflected on. Even if it after 3,500 chances.... That's how I see it, so far. Opportunities for all parties to learn. The “ hope for the best” and “maybe it will work out differently this time” strategy has been Rovers downfall for many years. Although the occasional long shot does come off most of the time the winners are those who know what their objective is and take the time to formulate an effective strategy to get to it. The losers are the ones who keep “hoping for the best” and blame everyone else when they fail.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 19:11:29 GMT
I think I've made it very clear where I am. For me to accept him as part of 'my club' he would need to convince me that he's found a way to put his violent past behind him, and acknowledge that everything about that way of life is just wrong, that includes showing off about it interviews and profiting from it by incorporating aspects of it into a book, unless of course it's a 'road to redemption' book, which his clearly wasn't. I keep saying, I have no ill will towards the guy and wish him nothing but happiness, but he's tarnished the name of the football club that I love, and to hear him make jokes about being sent to prison during part of his official duties on behalf of my club, when what got him that custodial sentence was a vicious attack on 1 person where he continued the assault after his victim was flat out on the floor and then followed that up by attacking a 16 year old, well, it's nauseating. He's a troubled individual who gives the impression that he's a long long way from even understanding how normal people view the way he's lived his life. Be very careful how you view "normal people" and what that means! Some utterly disgraceful past occurrences, no doubt. And I agree, to not renounce or address each wrongdoing kinda compounds the issue. In my opinion. That's his personal life, some may judge that relevant, others might not so much. There have been green shoots of nice approach since JAB arrival. It's a start. Only time will tell whether he is as truly troubled as you say.... maybe there's help sought as we communicate? Maybe there's a new leaf in a different part of the country for him that will offer him a different way? Maybe spending time out of his usual patch will make him view on his past differently? Maybe he'll grow up? Who knows? What I think is important is, he has the opportunity to prove it to himself. To be a decent human being and learn from previous misgivings. We can help him. This opportunity presented could be the biggest turning point in his (and our) lives where the virtue of value towards his fellow person is understood and reflected on. Even if it after 3,500 chances.... That's how I see it, so far. Opportunities for all parties to learn. Unfortunately even as of last Tuesday he thinks there's humour to be made out of an occurrence which left 2 people injured and him in prison, so it doesn't sound as if he's started any kind of journey into a period of serious self reflection and repentance. It sounded more like self aggrandisation with zero thought for the victims to me. How do you suppose the people he attacked would feel if they heard him referencing that incident as part of an interview, laughing, and knowing that he was doing that interview as part of his employment T&Cs, so was being paid for it? The other sad thing about that is that I'll wager that he didn't get a call that night from anybody within the club telling him that was unacceptable. What have we become?
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