eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 2, 2020 9:27:44 GMT
Some interesting developments in Germany recently. I was watching Union Berlin / Wolfsburg (no commentary) when the teams were taken off the pitch for a good 10 minutes with the rolling news "coverage of Union Berlin has been interrupted". I didn't realise til later that this was actually a protest against Hoffenheim and their billionaire owner Dietmarr Hopp. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51699401Also coverage of the anti-Hoffenheim Bayern Munich protests here: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51690403Bayer Leverkusen and Wolsburg were both initially founded as works teams and don't have the "51% fan-ownership" rules, and that doesn't cause any problems with general support. Hoffenheim and RB Leipzig are "new money Clubs" that have bent the 51% rule and have had significant investment. They would also appear to be generally loathed. I guess it's debatable whether it's "good" or "bad" to have new money bank-rolling smaller Clubs and upsetting the old status quo. Feels like German football is about to have a fight between the true supporters and the money men. Personally - I'm with the Union Berlin ultras. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 9:52:16 GMT
The DFB are a joke here, the players weren't taken off for the racist abuse of Jordan Torunarigha at Schalke vs Hertha. In fact, Torunarigha was sent off for reacting to it. Just goes to show what they care about, it's money. I can see this rolling on and on.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Mar 2, 2020 12:56:25 GMT
German fans are clearly determined to protect their model. They often use the price of Premier League tickets and TV subscriptions to highlight why it's worth arguing their corner. There are definitely some hypocrisies contained within aspects of this but it's hard not to side with them on the overall points they are making.
The thing is Man City, and it pains me to say this, do have a point when they argue that FPP rules are designed to protect the old elite from being knocked of their perch. In this context Bayern are perhaps a pefect example of a 'have your cake and eat it' club. But the solution to this is surely not a free for all. Then we end up the daft situation of football eating itself whereby relatively small but well backed clubs achieve success at the expense of well-supported clubs which is kind of bad for the game as well. As a neutral I'd prefer a premier league with Leeds, Forest, Sheff Weds and Sunderland in it far more interesting that one populated by those smaller and duller South East clubs like Watford, Bournemouth and Brighton. But that doesn't mean they should be protected.
Clearly the German thing goes beyond that with the desire to protect the fan membership model, which is the real prize. But there is a larger issue here about how competitive balance can be achieved in a fair way (not that football seems at all interested in competitive balance). FPP doesn't really work. A hard salary cap would be very difficult to enforce due to the cross-national nature of club football and would probably be illegal in most of Europe anyway. In that context the German model is absolutely worth fighting for but it's historic and unlikely to be rolled out elsewhere.
For example FC United are probably the only genuine fan owned membership style club in English football of any size (maybe Dulwich Hamlet too? I don't know much about their model) and despite getting 1500-2000 crowds they can't compete above Northern Premier level because much smaller clubs (many of whom would see 500 as a bumper crowd) can outspend them and nick all their decent players. So it shows that model cannot be competitive in isolation which is why German fans are right to fight for it. I always had this daydream that FC United could inspire similar clubs and that might create interest in developing some kind or parallel pirate league of fan owned clubs in England. That would be an interesting experiment. It is just a daydream though.
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 2, 2020 13:45:33 GMT
The DFB are a joke here, the players weren't taken off for the racist abuse of Jordan Torunarigha at Schalke vs Hertha. In fact, Torunarigha was sent off for reacting to it. Just goes to show what they care about, it's money. I can see this rolling on and on. Can't really comment on the Jordan Torunarigha incident - sounds like Schalke have said the right things post-match. Not sure what the DFB could influence during the game though? Maybe Hertha should have made a stand and walked off unilaterally... and in an ideal world Shalke walk off with them. Re: the DFB and the pot of gold they could claim by adopting 'the English' model... like I said - it looks like boiling up into a big scrap between the DFB and the supporters. And I really hope "fan power" prevails. |
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 2, 2020 14:11:40 GMT
German fans are clearly determined to protect their model. They often use the price of Premier League tickets and TV subscriptions to highlight why it's worth arguing their corner. There are definitely some hypocrisies contained within aspects of this but it's hard not to side with them on the overall points they are making.
The thing is Man City, and it pains me to say this, do have a point when they argue that FPP rules are designed to protect the old elite from being knocked of their perch. In this context Bayern are perhaps a pefect example of a 'have your cake and eat it' club. But the solution to this is surely not a free for all. Then we end up the daft situation of football eating itself whereby relatively small but well backed clubs achieve success at the expense of well-supported clubs which is kind of bad for the game as well. As a neutral I'd prefer a premier league with Leeds, Forest, Sheff Weds and Sunderland in it far more interesting that one populated by those smaller and duller South East clubs like Watford, Bournemouth and Brighton. But that doesn't mean they should be protected.
Clearly the German thing goes beyond that with the desire to protect the fan membership model, which is the real prize. But there is a larger issue here about how competitive balance can be achieved in a fair way (not that football seems at all interested in competitive balance). FPP doesn't really work. A hard salary cap would be very difficult to enforce due to the cross-national nature of club football and would probably be illegal in most of Europe anyway. In that context the German model is absolutely worth fighting for but it's historic and unlikely to be rolled out elsewhere.
For example FC United are probably the only genuine fan owned membership style club in English football of any size (maybe Dulwich Hamlet too? I don't know much about their model) and despite getting 1500-2000 crowds they can't compete above Northern Premier level because much smaller clubs (many of whom would see 500 as a bumper crowd) can outspend them and nick all their decent players. So it shows that model cannot be competitive in isolation which is why German fans are right to fight for it. I always had this daydream that FC United could inspire similar clubs and that might create interest in developing some kind or parallel pirate league of fan owned clubs in England. That would be an interesting experiment. It is just a daydream though.
As you say, on balance - you have to back the German fans. Bayern romping to yet another title is admittedly pretty boring. But the prospect of plastic Clubs with no tradition like Hoffenheim and RB Leipzig prevailing IMHO is far worse. Tradition vs Money. English football voted to sell it's soul for money to Sky TV in the early 90's. There has unarguably been some benefits of this cash injection. Better stadiums, standard of football etc. The fact that this new paradigm is partially subsidised by hugely expensive tickets I find pretty disgusting. And the Premier League inflation filters down to the point where we are expected to pay £28 to watch the Gas at Peterborough FFS. (Union Berlin didn't increase their ST prices when they were promoted to the Bundsliga. 187 Euros for a season. THAT is how a Club rewards it's supporters). Maybe it's me getting old and looking back at football through rose tinted lenses... but I 'miss' Torquay, Stockport, Wrexham, Halifax, Aldershot etc. The prospect of trips to Salford, Crawley, Stevenage, Morecambe, Burton, Fleetwood etc. I find generally unattractive. Yes, there has to be promotion /relegation between tier 4 and 5. But I do wonder if the number of newer (usually financially assisted Clubs) barely surviving in the EFL really has made football any 'better'. |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Mar 2, 2020 15:40:44 GMT
I’ve followed the German spats a bit and in the end I guess it depends on what side of the argument you prefer. The idea of smaller ticket prices and the 51% fans owned clubs must be very attractive but this then usually protects the bigger clubs, the status quo and the traditional way of things. Anybody with any great ambition who comes from a smaller “fanbase” is going to be disadvantaged by this model. Clearly there needs to be some controls in place to protect clubs against owners who mis-use them and we don’t want to see many examples like Bury. Would Leipzig in the old eastern Germany ever have been able to compete? I suspect not, and others may say “they know the rules and they should abide by them”. That they were given exemption tells me that the DFB recognised the need to grow the game in the old eastern Germany and allowed this.
But I do want to see a dynamic football system where merit on the pitch determines what level you play at. The old system of seeking re-election had to be bad as it stopped a lot of very good clubs from progressing. What we have now is certainly not perfect but in the past we have not had many “Burys” although we may in the future. Without a dynamic, changing league you will then be getting a more “franchise” centred league which opens a whole new thread!
And just a couple more points:
1. Blimey we had BamberG calling Bournemouth a “dump” a few weeks ago and now we have irish calling AFC Bournemouth a “dull” southern club (amongst others). I am not an AFCB fan and never will be despite attending but credit where it’s due in terms of holding onto their PL place. Listening to Robbie Savage last September say the PL would be better without AFCB and Norwich and have Leeds, Sunderland instead was pathetic and now I hear it here as well. Also having read so many of the Sunderland fans on their forum after our defeat last week was an eye-opener. Talk about a sense of entitlement! The the last thing football needs at the moment is another club in the north west or north east who can barely attract 3000 supporters like Macclesfield, Salford, Fleetwood, Oldham (?) and Morecambe. Clubs like AFCB and Brighton without another club within 20/30 miles of them is exactly the type of club we probably do need. ( I’m unsure of the distance between Brighton and Crawley but whatever Brighton were there first!)
2. Epping, I agree, I also miss Halifax, Stockport, Chesterfield, Torquay etc and your point is well made questioning whether their replacement clubs have improved the league. But I guess they finished bottom for a reason and those others finished top for a reason. But in the end I like the idea of a merit-based EFL, it’s dynamic, if you finish bottom you are out of it. It’s very clear. Rather than making it better I guess it does keep it refreshed and it reminds everyone what they need to avoid.
UTG!
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Mar 2, 2020 16:17:09 GMT
I’ve followed the German spats a bit and in the end I guess it depends on what side of the argument you prefer. The idea of smaller ticket prices and the 51% fans owned clubs must be very attractive but this then usually protects the bigger clubs, the status quo and the traditional way of things. Anybody with any great ambition who comes from a smaller “fanbase” is going to be disadvantaged by this model. Clearly there needs to be some controls in place to protect clubs against owners who mis-use them and we don’t want to see many examples like Bury. Would Leipzig in the old eastern Germany ever have been able to compete? I suspect not, and others may say “they know the rules and they should abide by them”. That they were given exemption tells me that the DFB recognised the need to grow the game in the old eastern Germany and allowed this. But I do want to see a dynamic football system where merit on the pitch determines what level you play at. The old system of seeking re-election had to be bad as it stopped a lot of very good clubs from progressing. What we have now is certainly not perfect but in the past we have not had many “Burys” although we may in the future. Without a dynamic, changing league you will then be getting a more “franchise” centred league which opens a whole new thread! And just a couple more points: 1. Blimey we had BamberG calling Bournemouth a “dump” a few weeks ago and now we have irish calling AFC Bournemouth a “dull” southern club (amongst others). I am not an AFCB fan and never will be despite attending but credit where it’s due in terms of holding onto their PL place. Listening to Robbie Savage last September say the PL would be better without AFCB and Norwich and have Leeds, Sunderland instead was pathetic and now I hear it here as well. Also having read so many of the Sunderland fans on their forum after our defeat last week was an eye-opener. Talk about a sense of entitlement! The the last thing football needs at the moment is another club in the north west or north east who can barely attract 3000 supporters like Macclesfield, Salford, Fleetwood, Oldham (?) and Morecambe. Clubs like AFCB and Brighton without another club within 20/30 miles of them is exactly the type of club we probably do need. ( I’m unsure of the distance between Brighton and Crawley but whatever Brighton were there first!) 2. Epping, I agree, I also miss Halifax, Stockport, Chesterfield, Torquay etc and your point is well made questioning whether their replacement clubs have improved the league. But I guess they finished bottom for a reason and those others finished top for a reason. But in the end I like the idea of a merit-based EFL, it’s dynamic, if you finish bottom you are out of it. It’s very clear. Rather than making it better I guess it does keep it refreshed and it reminds everyone what they need to avoid. UTG! It's not an anti-Bournemouth point necessarily - hell Rovers can dream of being Bournemouth. I'd love us to be one of those boring Southern clubs in Premier League and I thought we might be when the Al-Qadi's first took over. It's just about what draws me to watching games. Over the years I find myself completely uninterested to watch games involving Bournemouth/Watford/Charlton/Palace/Brighton/Reading/Fulham etc. It seems to me that those clubs have largely benefited from a proximity to London and therefore being attractive to investors. Fair play to them I suppose. But there's an old guard of clubs who have paid the price for that - Leeds/Sheff Weds/Notts Forest/Newcastle/Sunderland/Villa etc.
Now as a neutral I'd far rather watch Leeds v Sheffield Wednesday with 40k at Elland Road than Bournemouth v Waford in front of 15K. It feels bigger, more important and historic. It's easier to care as a neutral. If we're going to have a Premier League that operates the way ours does then we might as well have the big teams in it. I don't have a problem with Bournemouth or Watford or Brighton etc doing well in isolation. But I do think there's something wrong if there's so many of them and it feels like the last 15 years have definitely gone that way - it dilutes the achievement somewhat as well. I'm sure Premier League execs would rather have those big names back.
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 2, 2020 16:49:47 GMT
I’ve followed the German spats a bit and in the end I guess it depends on what side of the argument you prefer. The idea of smaller ticket prices and the 51% fans owned clubs must be very attractive but this then usually protects the bigger clubs, the status quo and the traditional way of things. Anybody with any great ambition who comes from a smaller “fanbase” is going to be disadvantaged by this model. Clearly there needs to be some controls in place to protect clubs against owners who mis-use them and we don’t want to see many examples like Bury. Would Leipzig in the old eastern Germany ever have been able to compete? I suspect not, and others may say “they know the rules and they should abide by them”. That they were given exemption tells me that the DFB recognised the need to grow the game in the old eastern Germany and allowed this. And then Union Berlin achieve promotion to the Bundesliga! With no money. With a Stadium that the fans re-built with their own bare hands in 2008. For me they are a fantastic example of what can be achieved when the supporters actually have a degree of ownership, totally buy in to the culture of the Club, embrace it, and support it. From a lowly tier 4 in 2008-9 with average gates of 7,200 - they now sell out their 21,000 capacity (tickets are almost impossible to find). They have 28,000 members paying 10 Euros a month, so this obviously doesn't even guaranty them a match day ticket. And then I look at Bristol Rovers and what we have "achieved" in the same period of time and, excuse my language, it makes me want to f******g weep. |
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Mar 4, 2020 16:01:16 GMT
I’ve followed the German spats a bit and in the end I guess it depends on what side of the argument you prefer..... And just a couple more points: 1. Blimey we had BamberG calling Bournemouth a “dump” a few weeks ago and now we have irish calling AFC Bournemouth a “dull” southern club (amongst others). I am not an AFCB fan and never will be despite attending but credit where it’s due in terms of holding onto their PL place. Listening to Robbie Savage last September say the PL would be better without AFCB and Norwich and have Leeds, Sunderland instead was pathetic and now I hear it here as well. Also having read so many of the Sunderland fans on their forum after our defeat last week was an eye-opener. Talk about a sense of entitlement! The the last thing football needs at the moment is another club in the north west or north east who can barely attract 3000 supporters like Macclesfield, Salford, Fleetwood, Oldham (?) and Morecambe. Clubs like AFCB and Brighton without another club within 20/30 miles of them is exactly the type of club we probably do need. ( I’m unsure of the distance between Brighton and Crawley but whatever Brighton were there first!) 2. Epping, I agree, I also miss Halifax, Stockport, Chesterfield, Torquay etc and your point is well made questioning whether their replacement clubs have improved the league. But I guess they finished bottom for a reason and those others finished top for a reason. But in the end I like the idea of a merit-based EFL, it’s dynamic, if you finish bottom you are out of it. It’s very clear. Rather than making it better I guess it does keep it refreshed and it reminds everyone what they need to avoid. UTG! It's not an anti-Bournemouth point necessarily - hell Rovers can dream of being Bournemouth. I'd love us to be one of those boring Southern clubs in Premier League and I thought we might be when the Al-Qadi's first took over. It's just about what draws me to watching games. Over the years I find myself completely uninterested to watch games involving Bournemouth/Watford/Charlton/Palace/Brighton/Reading/Fulham etc. It seems to me that those clubs have largely benefited from a proximity to London and therefore being attractive to investors. Fair play to them I suppose. But there's an old guard of clubs who have paid the price for that - Leeds/Sheff Weds/Notts Forest/Newcastle/Sunderland/Villa etc.
Now as a neutral I'd far rather watch Leeds v Sheffield Wednesday with 40k at Elland Road than Bournemouth v Waford in front of 15K. It feels bigger, more important and historic. It's easier to care as a neutral. If we're going to have a Premier League that operates the way ours does then we might as well have the big teams in it. I don't have a problem with Bournemouth or Watford or Brighton etc doing well in isolation. But I do think there's something wrong if there's so many of them and it feels like the last 15 years have definitely gone that way - it dilutes the achievement somewhat as well. I'm sure Premier League execs would rather have those big names back.
So not a believer in the league and PL being a meritocracy then irish!! 😉 If something is bigger, more traditional and, it seems, northern-based, then that is better. Blimey irish, I normally agree with so much of what you post but your views here I almost completely disagree with. I appreciate you include the rider “as a neutral” but if you go with the bigger and older is better mantra then you might as well go straight to the franchise model which protects those who are in possession of a place at the top table. And in a way this was the almost unspoken principle behind the formation of the PL, the bigger clubs wanting more. Well, I would suggest that the clubs you mentioned who are smaller have adapted to the financial needs of the PL and have grown into it. Some of the bigger clubs you mentioned Sheffield W and Leeds perhaps thought it would just happen because they were “big” and have been appallingly run (esp Leeds). Those southern clubs you mentioned are mostly very well run and have adapted to the needs and have been largely financially sensible so they can bounce back. I’m not sure that geography comes into it though you make a good case inso far as the clubs you mentioned who have lost out are in the north but I would say they have been poorly run which is not a geographical pre-condition. Sheffield W, Forest, Newcastle, Sunderland even Leeds have been basket cases for years at a time. And there are Northern teams who have adapted, Burnley, Sheffield United to match the dull southern clubs you identified. Just as there are southern clubs who have dropped, Ipswich, Charlton, Southampton for a time. I don’t include Bournemouth among these because I think it is an almost unique achievement. Had they not got promoted when they did I believe they would have gone bust, they gambled and it paid off. They could so easily have lost the gamble and go back to where they came from or even worse. Their losses in that season were unsustainable and they did not have the grounds of others to put a plan B into operation. In a sense Bournemouth, though living the dream, is such an individual case to do what they do on gates of 10,500 that it makes any normal comparison stupid. I get your point about what gets gets you excited and I can’t disagree with that but I’m absolute sure that the PL needs to be a league based on merit. Those bigger clubs should be able to compete with the “Bournemouths” of this world because of their natural advantages. When they don’t, as many of them haven’t, they need to look at what they are doing now not at their past glories. (Not that you said that.) incentives must be there to achieve. I would also suggest that those clubs you mentioned in the south have several owners who are local to the clubs who have an emotional tie to them. League membership must be based on winning matches, not size so that any club has an incentive to move up the leagues and eventually gain a place in the PL. most of those dull southern clubs had local owners who had an attachment to the clubs and enabled them to grow. If only Rovers could attract a local person with an emotional attachment to the club then we could so easily be bigger than Bournemouth or any other of that group. (Sigh longingly) UTG! ps. By all means call Bournemouth dull but don’t apply this argument to cricket and start calling southern counties boring in the summer !!! Then I will be seriously jarred off.😉 |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Mar 5, 2020 13:22:04 GMT
It's not an anti-Bournemouth point necessarily - hell Rovers can dream of being Bournemouth. I'd love us to be one of those boring Southern clubs in Premier League and I thought we might be when the Al-Qadi's first took over. It's just about what draws me to watching games. Over the years I find myself completely uninterested to watch games involving Bournemouth/Watford/Charlton/Palace/Brighton/Reading/Fulham etc. It seems to me that those clubs have largely benefited from a proximity to London and therefore being attractive to investors. Fair play to them I suppose. But there's an old guard of clubs who have paid the price for that - Leeds/Sheff Weds/Notts Forest/Newcastle/Sunderland/Villa etc.
Now as a neutral I'd far rather watch Leeds v Sheffield Wednesday with 40k at Elland Road than Bournemouth v Waford in front of 15K. It feels bigger, more important and historic. It's easier to care as a neutral. If we're going to have a Premier League that operates the way ours does then we might as well have the big teams in it. I don't have a problem with Bournemouth or Watford or Brighton etc doing well in isolation. But I do think there's something wrong if there's so many of them and it feels like the last 15 years have definitely gone that way - it dilutes the achievement somewhat as well. I'm sure Premier League execs would rather have those big names back.
So not a believer in the league and PL being a meritocracy then irish!! 😉 If something is bigger, more traditional and, it seems, northern-based, then that is better. Blimey irish, I normally agree with so much of what you post but your views here I almost completely disagree with. I appreciate you include the rider “as a neutral” but if you go with the bigger and older is better mantra then you might as well go straight to the franchise model which protects those who are in possession of a place at the top table. And in a way this was the almost unspoken principle behind the formation of the PL, the bigger clubs wanting more. Well, I would suggest that the clubs you mentioned who are smaller have adapted to the financial needs of the PL and have grown into it. Some of the bigger clubs you mentioned Sheffield W and Leeds perhaps thought it would just happen because they were “big” and have been appallingly run (esp Leeds). Those southern clubs you mentioned are mostly very well run and have adapted to the needs and have been largely financially sensible so they can bounce back. I’m not sure that geography comes into it though you make a good case inso far as the clubs you mentioned who have lost out are in the north but I would say they have been poorly run which is not a geographical pre-condition. Sheffield W, Forest, Newcastle, Sunderland even Leeds have been basket cases for years at a time. And there are Northern teams who have adapted, Burnley, Sheffield United to match the dull southern clubs you identified. Just as there are southern clubs who have dropped, Ipswich, Charlton, Southampton for a time. I don’t include Bournemouth among these because I think it is an almost unique achievement. Had they not got promoted when they did I believe they would have gone bust, they gambled and it paid off. They could so easily have lost the gamble and go back to where they came from or even worse. Their losses in that season were unsustainable and they did not have the grounds of others to put a plan B into operation. In a sense Bournemouth, though living the dream, is such an individual case to do what they do on gates of 10,500 that it makes any normal comparison stupid. I get your point about what gets gets you excited and I can’t disagree with that but I’m absolute sure that the PL needs to be a league based on merit. Those bigger clubs should be able to compete with the “Bournemouths” of this world because of their natural advantages. When they don’t, as many of them haven’t, they need to look at what they are doing now not at their past glories. (Not that you said that.) incentives must be there to achieve. I would also suggest that those clubs you mentioned in the south have several owners who are local to the clubs who have an emotional tie to them. League membership must be based on winning matches, not size so that any club has an incentive to move up the leagues and eventually gain a place in the PL. most of those dull southern clubs had local owners who had an attachment to the clubs and enabled them to grow. If only Rovers could attract a local person with an emotional attachment to the club then we could so easily be bigger than Bournemouth or any other of that group. (Sigh longingly) UTG! ps. By all means call Bournemouth dull but don’t apply this argument to cricket and start calling southern counties boring in the summer !!! Then I will be seriously jarred off.😉 Ah but cricket is a kind of closed franchise model already right? The North-South thing in cricket is an interesting one but for a different thread!
My real issue is not that I have any great sympathy for Leeds or Sheffield Wednesday etc or any great objection to Bournemouth. My problem is that we get the worst of both worlds with the incentives the Premier League has. I'd take issue with the idea that it represents any kind of meritocracy. It seems to me that what it serves is the interest of the top elite clubs and a rotating cast of smaller clubs that generally operate as investment opportunities. They might be well run but they will always have relatively limited ambitions. What the Premier League has stuffed over is the 'aspiring middle class' if you like. Those clubs who used to have reasonable ambitions to compete with the elite. So, yes, you can hammer Leeds for being incompetently run but ultimately they were punished for overspending trying to compete with the elite. The Premier League rewards conservative unthreatening strategies among its non-elite. The result of that is the main ambition for at least 12 out of the 20 clubs is just to avoid relegation. That is neither meritocracy or any kind of competitive balance.
So OK it might be nice to see Bournemouth, Burnley, Watford etc in the league but you can never really see them advancing beyond midtable at the very, very best and they're not incentivised to aim to do more than that. This works very well for the top clubs who have been insulated against real competition and threat to their Champions League income. The only way into the club is to get someone in the top of the international financial elite to push you into it. Compare to Germany where, although Bayern's dominance is major issue, behind them probably half the league or more could harbour realistic ambitions of achieving a Champions League spot at the start of the season. In the PL it's highly likely one of Chelsea, Arsenal or Man United will make a Champions League spot this year despite most pundits thinking they've all had bad seasons. That can't be right.
The system consistently rewards the wrong things - that's the problem. As a neutral what I care about most is competitive balance. I want to see the system encourage clubs to build contenders but instead it encourages them to aim to finish 12th each year and punishes them if they overstretch trying to achieve more. The result is that I find myself not really caring very much about who goes up and down from the PL anymore because it doesn't really refresh the league. You just end up with another 3 clubs whose height of ambition is to avoid the relegation battle and nothing more. Sure you have the Sheffield United's occasionally but it's hard to see how they'd be able to push on.
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 5, 2020 18:02:47 GMT
Wise words Irish. I an completely bored with the Premiership. Maybe it's because of the one-horse race this year that has really brought home how dull it is. Every 5-6 years someone breaks into the top 6. Yawn. The relegation battle is invariably more interesting. English football sold it's soul many years ago... that's why I've become increasingly interested in German football and particularly their 51% ownership model (excluding the 4 mentioned above).
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Mar 6, 2020 10:22:48 GMT
As epping said irish they are wise words and you’re correct in that analysis. My point wasnt the points you raised there it was always about the calling out of “dull southern” clubs. The way the PL is run was always going to lead to a group of wannabes who constantly seek to gain 40 points whilst surviving at the top table. In the end we have the top six with the remainder being teams who make up the league and want to survive, irrespective of they come from the north, south, east or west (probably unlikely!). So it doesn’t really matter where they come from. Bournemouth could be called many things, defensively vulnerable, too open in midfield, small, punching above their weight but dull is never one I would use!
I apologise, I should just have kept quiet. Although not a Bournemouth fan, going with the family has given us an insight and view of PL football we never thought we would get. And I have become a tad protective, esp this season when it’s been open season on criticising Eddie H and AFCB. They may go back to their origins if they get relegated but they have given the PL a breath of fresh air and have taken PL football to a place unlikely to have got it otherwise. No doubt being replaced by Leeds or WBA will please the PL executives etc., and the fans who like the bigger, traditional clubs at the top.
UTG!
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Mar 6, 2020 12:31:09 GMT
As epping said irish they are wise words and you’re correct in that analysis. My point wasnt the points you raised there it was always about the calling out of “dull southern” clubs. The way the PL is run was always going to lead to a group of wannabes who constantly seek to gain 40 points whilst surviving at the top table. In the end we have the top six with the remainder being teams who make up the league and want to survive, irrespective of they come from the north, south, east or west (probably unlikely!). So it doesn’t really matter where they come from. Bournemouth could be called many things, defensively vulnerable, too open in midfield, small, punching above their weight but dull is never one I would use! I apologise, I should just have kept quiet. Although not a Bournemouth fan, going with the family has given us an insight and view of PL football we never thought we would get. And I have become a tad protective, esp this season when it’s been open season on criticising Eddie H and AFCB. They may go back to their origins if they get relegated but they have given the PL a breath of fresh air and have taken PL football to a place unlikely to have got it otherwise. No doubt being replaced by Leeds or WBA will please the PL executives etc., and the fans who like the bigger, traditional clubs at the top. UTG! I don't think they will although I do think perhaps that Eddie Howe might have just missed his chance to move on to bigger things now. Bournemouth's achievements are no doubt impressive. It's not really about the clubs in isolation. Bournemouth are a good story, Stoke were a good story, Charlton before them etc. That's fine. The problem is that it becomes less of an interesting story when so many teams fit that bill. 1 or 2 clubs like that is interesting and it's important that can still happen or it gets stale. But 5 or 6 clubs like that dilutes the concept for me. It's quite common that I look at the fixtures on a Saturday and think the Championship games look more interesting . Games involving Norwich, Bournemouth, Palace, Brighton, Burnley and Watford just don't particularly grab my attention in a way that games involving Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Sunderland, Forest, Portsmouth etc do. Part of that is prejudice towards seeing certain clubs as more eye catching. But it's also about what you want the top league to be. Ironically I'd be far more drawn to watch the Bournemouth's of this world if the Premier League didn't contain as many of those clubs. I guess David vs Goliath is always interesting and so is Goliath vs Goliath, but David vs David is not; and the more David's there are the less unique and interesting their matchups with Goliath become! |
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 13, 2020 11:55:34 GMT
I guess with all football (Rovers and otherwise) cancelled for the short term... bit more reading about German football here. Just more depth to earlier pieces and also references the DFB's lack of action with regard to racism - as chewy pointed out above. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51800444Eisern Union and Up The Gas. |
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 21, 2020 11:03:43 GMT
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Post by eppinggas on May 15, 2022 10:21:12 GMT
Bit boring with Bayern winning the Bundesliga yet again. But the rest of the division remains a lot more interesting than the premiersh*t. Union finished 5th, their highest ever finish with a strong end to the season. In fact I am pretty sure that's the highest finishing position from any Club from the former East Germany (RB Leipzig just does not 'count'). It was only a dip in form after selling Max Kruse to Wolfsburg in the January window that robbed them of a Champions League place.
To make things even sweeter Hertha lost to Dortmund on the last day of the season and fall into the relegation play off place as Stuttgart scored an injury time winner against FC Koln.
Bundesliga 2 finishes today. Likely that Hertha will play Hamburg in the 2 leg play off.
Bye bye Hertha.
In other news FC Magdeburg romped the Bundesliga 3. The only winner of a European trophy (UEFA Cup) winner from the former East Germany.
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Post by eppinggas on May 15, 2022 11:36:06 GMT
East German Clubs in the Bundesliga.
Prior to yesterday - Hansa Rostock achieved the highest finish with 6th place (achieved twice). They've had the most seasons in the Bundesliga for a former DDR Club.
Only 5 former DDR Clubs have ever made the Bundesliga: Dynamo Dresden, Lokomotive Leipzig, Energie Cottbus, Hansa Rostock and Union Berlin.
There were no Clubs from the DDR in the Bundesliga between 2009-2010 season and the glorious against all odds promotion of Union in 2019.
I'll get me coat.
Edit: No-one thinks of RB Leipzig as a former DDR Club. A plastic franchise hated in Germany.
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Post by eppinggas on May 18, 2022 9:03:45 GMT
German Bundesliga Play-offs. 3rd bottom in Bundesliga plays 3rd placed Bundesliga 2 over two legs.
Hertha Berlin vs. SV Hamburg.
Only 3 times since the play-off format was introduced in 2008-09 has the Bundesliga 2 Club prevailed - FC Nurnberg 2008-09, Fortuna Dusseldorf 2011-12 and Union Berlin in 2018-19.
Hertha were only a couple of minutes away from safety, before Stuttgart scored an injury time goal to beat Koln. They have to pick themselves up.
Hertha manager is the legendary Felix Magath, who played in the glory years for SV Hamburg 1976-1986 (3 Bundesliga titles, 1 European Cup, 1 European Cup Winners Cup).
Hertha to win 11/8 Hamburg 2/1.
No odds available on qualification over 2 legs. Hertha have been badly managed for years, in sharp contrast to their neighbours Union Berlin. Hertha for the drop!
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Post by bluetornados on May 18, 2022 11:49:04 GMT
German Bundesliga Play-offs. 3rd bottom in Bundesliga plays 3rd placed Bundesliga 2 over two legs. Hertha Berlin vs. SV Hamburg. Only 3 times since the play-off format was introduced in 2008-09 has the Bundesliga 2 Club prevailed - FC Nurnberg 2008-09, Fortuna Dusseldorf 2011-12 and Union Berlin in 2018-19. Hertha were only a couple of minutes away from safety, before Stuttgart scored an injury time goal to beat Koln. They have to pick themselves up. Hertha manager is the legendary Felix Magath, who played in the glory years for SV Hamburg 1976-1986 (3 Bundesliga titles, 1 European Cup, 1 European Cup Winners Cup). Hertha to win 11/8 Hamburg 2/1. No odds available on qualification over 2 legs. Hertha have been badly managed for years, in sharp contrast to their neighbours Union Berlin. Hertha for the drop! He would have played with Kevin Keegan for the 3 seasons he was there, 1 title & 1 runners up also managed Hamburg, Bayern, Wolfsburg, Stuttgart, Eintracht, Nurnberg & Schalke too. |
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Post by eppinggas on May 18, 2022 15:11:18 GMT
German Bundesliga Play-offs. 3rd bottom in Bundesliga plays 3rd placed Bundesliga 2 over two legs. Hertha Berlin vs. SV Hamburg. Only 3 times since the play-off format was introduced in 2008-09 has the Bundesliga 2 Club prevailed - FC Nurnberg 2008-09, Fortuna Dusseldorf 2011-12 and Union Berlin in 2018-19. Hertha were only a couple of minutes away from safety, before Stuttgart scored an injury time goal to beat Koln. They have to pick themselves up. Hertha manager is the legendary Felix Magath, who played in the glory years for SV Hamburg 1976-1986 (3 Bundesliga titles, 1 European Cup, 1 European Cup Winners Cup). Hertha to win 11/8 Hamburg 2/1. No odds available on qualification over 2 legs. Hertha have been badly managed for years, in sharp contrast to their neighbours Union Berlin. Hertha for the drop! He would have played with Kevin Keegan for the 3 seasons he was there, 1 title & 1 runners up also managed Hamburg, Bayern, Wolfsburg, Stuttgart, Eintracht, Nurnberg & Schalke too. Since being sacked by Fulham in 2014, he's hardly set the world alight. Just one short stint at Shandong Luneng before becoming Hertha's third managerial appointment of the season. Not looking good for Hertha. Guten nacht, Die Alte Dame. |
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