kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 21, 2020 14:37:35 GMT
Interesting article about Brentford here: www.sportperformanceanalysis.com/article/2018/6/8/the-history-of-brentford-football-analytics. This does not look remotely like Bristol Rovers. The owner (Matthew Benham) is a lifelong fan. "invested over £90 million in improving the team's training facilities, stadium and developing a youth academy". "Since 2005, no academy player had debut in the first team. Not only that, the best talent being produced by their academy was being stolen away by top clubs in the Premier League at young ages when Brentford was not due compensation for the transfer. The situation meant that the large investments being made in developing young talent were not returning any positive results to the club. This is why Brentford FC decided to completely close their academy and solely focus on recruitment from other clubs". "The long-term philosophy that Brentford FC have been implementing over the last 6 years... is hoping to see a club being run by analytics, sound business strategy and statistically-based decision making". (To be fair - not sure what status the "youth academy" now has - but obviously there is a major problem in nurturing young talent and losing them for a pittance). The "similar" is that brentford identify young players with potential,sign them and have had amazing success selling them on for massive profit while still improving as a team. Thats exactly what garner is trying to do at rovers. Coventry are attempting to do a similar thing as well. With all due respect, it’s way too early to know what BG wants to do. We have soundbites to go on. The be all & end all is at the owners feet.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,255
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 21, 2020 14:41:51 GMT
Not noticed Alfie Kilgour or Rollin Menayese or Cameron Hargreaves in the squad this year then? It may have escaped your attention that Micheal Kelly and Ollie Clarke were also homered grown products. Ok we lost Lockyer for nothing after 6 years as a pro here, a bit disappointing, but you also have to think of the money saved on transfer, agents and signing on fees by developing youth. So if you read carefully the reasons for Brentford shutting it down, no player broke through to the first team and the PL clubs were nicking talent. We have 6 youth players in and around the Matchday squad and another load of talent earning their stripes just behind them. Players like Hoole, Tomlinson and Walker and the last player we lost to a PL club was Donovan Wilson who went to Wolves ( who were championship at the time). A comparable club to us which has a good youth system is Exeter, look at the players they have sold on for a profit. But don’t let any of the above stop you aiming a cheap shot at the club. We signed Rollin Menayese from Weston in 2017. How many games has Hargreaves played ? 👀
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 14:44:27 GMT
Who does everyone else with our budget sign? There are far more signing the players you describe (and having some reasonable success) than there are trying to fashion a team comprised of 70%+ youth into a respected outfit. Who was it who said “you win nowt with kids” again? We have been doing what every other similar league 1 and league 2 club has been doing for years and like them we simply play in league 1 and 2 and lose money. We signed upson,ogogo,rodman and bennett who have had varying degrees of success but have no realistic chance of having resale value. So now the club are trying something different. It was alan hansen who made the "you win nowt with kids" quote about man utd. Believe they won the treble after he said it. Yeah I was being tongue in cheek with the winning nothing with kids comment. It was after United lost 3-1 on the first day of the season to Aston Villa and they went on to win the league that year. But that aside- name me some other successful teams that were mostly comprised of young players? Ajax’s champions league winning team would be one answer. But to my mind it’s very rare, especially in the lower leagues where young players are physically not as well equipped for both the rigours of a full season at that level as well as to compete with the stature of the older players they are up against. It feels like Rovers think they have discovered a blueprint for the fax machine and are busy putting it to use when the rest of the world figured out long ago that it’s a waste of time because better alternatives are out there.
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TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,337
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Post by TaiwanGas on Feb 21, 2020 15:09:21 GMT
We signed Rollin Menayese from Weston in 2017. We signed him and he played a lot of football in the development squad without which we would have had nowhere to play him until he was ready for first team football. I thought Menayese had plied most of his trade on loan with Swindon and Aldershot?, I may be wrong on that tho'.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 16:23:07 GMT
The "similar" is that brentford identify young players with potential,sign them and have had amazing success selling them on for massive profit while still improving as a team. Thats exactly what garner is trying to do at rovers. Coventry are attempting to do a similar thing as well. With all due respect, it’s way too early to know what BG wants to do. We have soundbites to go on. The be all & end all is at the owners feet. The 3 permanent signings are a big clue regarding his recruitment intentions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 16:28:34 GMT
We signed him and he played a lot of football in the development squad without which we would have had nowhere to play him until he was ready for first team football. I thought Menayese had plied most of his trade on loan with Swindon and Aldershot?, I may be wrong on that tho'. Yeah I think it’s pushing it a bit to have him down as a development squad product.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 16:32:23 GMT
We have been doing what every other similar league 1 and league 2 club has been doing for years and like them we simply play in league 1 and 2 and lose money. We signed upson,ogogo,rodman and bennett who have had varying degrees of success but have no realistic chance of having resale value. So now the club are trying something different. It was alan hansen who made the "you win nowt with kids" quote about man utd. Believe they won the treble after he said it. Yeah I was being tongue in cheek with the winning nothing with kids comment. It was after United lost 3-1 on the first day of the season to Aston Villa and they went on to win the league that year. But that aside- name me some other successful teams that were mostly comprised of young players? Ajax’s champions league winning team would be one answer. But to my mind it’s very rare, especially in the lower leagues where young players are physically not as well equipped for both the rigours of a full season at that level as well as to compete with the stature of the older players they are up against. It feels like Rovers think they have discovered a blueprint for the fax machine and are busy putting it to use when the rest of the world figured out long ago that it’s a waste of time because better alternatives are out there. We have a lot of experience already at the club. Brentford and barnsley are examples of successful young teams that come to mind although in the case of the latter they are too good for our division but struggle in the championship. Although there are notable exceptions most of the 28-33 year old players we have signed in the last 20 years have been poor. So why not try something different?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 16:37:01 GMT
We signed him and he played a lot of football in the development squad without which we would have had nowhere to play him until he was ready for first team football. I thought Menayese had plied most of his trade on loan with Swindon and Aldershot?, I may be wrong on that tho'. He played a lot of games in the dev squad when he first joined the club,i watched some of them. He played a couple of first team games for us then got his loan to swindon and later aldershot. Must admit i think menayese will sign for another league club next season.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 17:02:49 GMT
Thats part of the whole development squad idea though. Raw young weston player menayese and aberdeen/leicester reject kelly impress in the development squad on short cheap contracts and earn better deals. Who did kelly play senior football for? Hurlford United.
It's interesting that we seemingly have had more success from the first Development squad than ones since.
On gaschat someone said the dev squad budget was cut from last season. No idea if true but would contradict the perceived garner philosophy if it was.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 17:28:49 GMT
Yeah I was being tongue in cheek with the winning nothing with kids comment. It was after United lost 3-1 on the first day of the season to Aston Villa and they went on to win the league that year. But that aside- name me some other successful teams that were mostly comprised of young players? Ajax’s champions league winning team would be one answer. But to my mind it’s very rare, especially in the lower leagues where young players are physically not as well equipped for both the rigours of a full season at that level as well as to compete with the stature of the older players they are up against. It feels like Rovers think they have discovered a blueprint for the fax machine and are busy putting it to use when the rest of the world figured out long ago that it’s a waste of time because better alternatives are out there. We have a lot of experience already at the club. Brentford and barnsley are examples of successful young teams that come to mind although in the case of the latter they are too good for our division but struggle in the championship. Although there are notable exceptions most of the 28-33 year old players we have signed in the last 20 years have been poor. So why not try something different? Problem is most of the young loanees have been poor too! Certainly poor enough to suggest that changing the orientation of the player we want to develop from an experienced pro to a youth we can sell for profit is going to be just about the hardest route we could take short of throwing money we haven’t got at expensive players. I would contend (and have for a long time previous) that it’s our scouting that needs the biggest overhaul rather than our signing policy. Widdrington seems to be hailed as a messiah when, if you believe the prevailing mood that this current squad was over-achieving under Coughlan, you have to ask yourself who was behind the signings of a lot of them? His record is very hit and miss which is probably what you would expect from a lower league scout/head of recruitment but it needs to be a lot lot better if we are going to be relying primarily on younger players going forward. Spotting a youth that is going to make a real difference in the game and earn a few quid from a transfer is bloody hard work because far, far, far more fail than make it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 18:23:02 GMT
To WMGAS. After coughlan took over the recruitment was much better imo. jaakola,hare,davies,clarke-harris,ogogo and now blackman have been mostly outstanding.
Garner in theory has good inside knowledge of higher division academy players which should help with loans and permanent signings. Garner worked with daly at palace for example. Anyway the proof of the pudding is in the eating so we will have to see what happens. Its too late to do a u-turn now so im on board with allowing garner to see the project through or if garner gets sacked getting someone else in with the same strategy.
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harrybuckle
Always look on the bright side
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Post by harrybuckle on Feb 21, 2020 18:38:57 GMT
To WMGAS. After coughlan took over the recruitment was much better imo. jaakola,hare,davies,clarke-harris,ogogo and now blackman have been mostly outstanding. Garner in theory has good inside knowledge of higher division academy players which should help with loans and permanent signings. Garner worked with daly at palace for example. Anyway the proof of the pudding is in the eating so we will have to see what happens. Its too late to do a u-turn now so im on board with allowing garner to see the project through or if garner gets sacked getting someone else in with the same strategy. GC did not take over recruitment Widdrington was the man who identified those players. Garner left Palace in 2015 as Daly is only 20 would seem unlikely he knew him. Blackman was a Garner signing not GC
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 19:12:14 GMT
To WMGAS. After coughlan took over the recruitment was much better imo. jaakola,hare,davies,clarke-harris,ogogo and now blackman have been mostly outstanding. Garner in theory has good inside knowledge of higher division academy players which should help with loans and permanent signings. Garner worked with daly at palace for example. Anyway the proof of the pudding is in the eating so we will have to see what happens. Its too late to do a u-turn now so im on board with allowing garner to see the project through or if garner gets sacked getting someone else in with the same strategy. GC did not take over recruitment Widdrington was the man who identified those players. Garner left Palace in 2015 as Daly is only 20 would seem unlikely he knew him. Blackman was a Garner signing not GC
Garner worked with daly at the palace academy when daly was 14 or so i have read. Its not relevant who signed who as its the manager who gets sacked if it goes wrong. The point is that the recruitment during the last 14 months has been good but now has a different direction. So lets see how abraham,blackman,mitchell-lawson,ginelly,barrett,harries and daly get on.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 19:12:15 GMT
Its too late to do a u-turn now Don't understand that at all. We are no further forward in any regard whatsoever since Garner arrived, all he's done is create chaos on the pitch so far. If he walked out today and an Atkins / Coughlan style manager was put in place we would see an instant improvement in performances. The biggest worries we have are; 1. Will Garner learn enough to stop us getting relegated next year? 15 games in and no sign whatsoever yet that he understands the basics of organising a midfield and defence when the opposition have the ball. 2. Where is the club heading financially? We are losing around £10,000.00 a day at the moment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 19:28:37 GMT
Its too late to do a u-turn now Don't understand that at all. We are no further forward in any regard whatsoever since Garner arrived, all he's done is create chaos on the pitch so far. If he walked out today and an Atkins / Coughlan style manager was put in place we would see an instant improvement in performances. The biggest worries we have are; 1. Will Garner learn enough to stop us getting relegated next year? 15 games in and no sign whatsoever yet that he understands the basics of organising a midfield and defence when the opposition have the ball. 2. Where is the club heading financially? We are losing around £10,000.00 a day at the moment. The loss is the reason we have to move away from the high earning players. I disagree that you would see an instant improvement by going back to long ball especially with the 7 players signed. Maybe its not garner that needs to learn but the players? The appointment was crazy in many ways because we were high in the league playing in a certain style but i firmly believe we should stick with garner now and see if this can work.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 21, 2020 19:56:43 GMT
Don't understand that at all. We are no further forward in any regard whatsoever since Garner arrived, all he's done is create chaos on the pitch so far. If he walked out today and an Atkins / Coughlan style manager was put in place we would see an instant improvement in performances. The biggest worries we have are; 1. Will Garner learn enough to stop us getting relegated next year? 15 games in and no sign whatsoever yet that he understands the basics of organising a midfield and defence when the opposition have the ball. 2. Where is the club heading financially? We are losing around £10,000.00 a day at the moment. but i firmly believe we should stick with garner now and see if this can work. Ok, but for how long? How long is it acceptable to pursue with 4-3-3 and make the predictable substitutions on 59 mins? We have f ked about all season playing an impotent striker up front with jch, then loan him out and don't replace the position!? Clubs with managers with half a brain outwit our fledgling manager that's never managed or played professionally, and to top the lot the only win we've enjoyed under his tenure was from a wonder strike from boy wonder in the defence, and a deflected outstretched leg....all while the goalkeeper won m o m from almost everyone. Hardly convincing, is it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 20:08:33 GMT
but i firmly believe we should stick with garner now and see if this can work. Ok, but for how long? How long is it acceptable to pursue with 4-3-3 and make the predictable substitutions on 59 mins? We have f ked about all season playing an impotent striker up front with jch, then loan him out and don't replace the position!? Clubs with managers with half a brain outwit our fledgling manager that's never managed or played professionally, and to top the lot the only win we've enjoyed under his tenure was from a wonder strike from boy wonder in the defence, and a deflected outstretched leg....all while the goalkeeper won m o m from almost everyone. Hardly convincing, is it? We have improved recently. Nothing wrong with 4-3-3 or any other formation,they all work and dont work. If the results carry on being poor and they sack garner i hope they get someone in who stays with the strategy. Most teams play with one out and out striker these days so why not us? Every manager has never managed before at some point. Do lucky goals count as goals?
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 21, 2020 22:01:27 GMT
Ok, but for how long? How long is it acceptable to pursue with 4-3-3 and make the predictable substitutions on 59 mins? We have f ked about all season playing an impotent striker up front with jch, then loan him out and don't replace the position!? Clubs with managers with half a brain outwit our fledgling manager that's never managed or played professionally, and to top the lot the only win we've enjoyed under his tenure was from a wonder strike from boy wonder in the defence, and a deflected outstretched leg....all while the goalkeeper won m o m from almost everyone. Hardly convincing, is it? We have improved recently. Nothing wrong with 4-3-3 or any other formation,they all work and dont work. If the results carry on being poor and they sack garner i hope they get someone in who stays with the strategy. Most teams play with one out and out striker these days so why not us? Every manager has never managed before at some point. Do lucky goals count as goals? Well I can't argue that recent improvements of a win and a draw is somewhat promotion form! All goals count as goals, but I think it's disingenuous to take it out of context. We took a lucky win. I'll take that any day. The point is 1/15 wins is an unacceptable percentage, and the management team have to be held to account for that. Much like Mr Holloway is held to account for his start to his Grimsbury tenure. Again it's not the fledgling manager point I'm making, it's the issue BG has never played professionally as well. Again, not an issue if started ok, but unless you think 1/15 is very good, you'll be in the 'Nichols in' club!? I hope it works for whomever is in charge, I want us to be as successful as possible. Unfortunately I see a manager that's clueless atm. Too slow to react to midfield crisis, not proactive enough when needed. Playing one up front is fine if you play a certain way...I saw six players behind the ball on a break last Saturday, all looking at each other and sauntering forward....jch needs a strike partner and it's no coincidence we looked more if a threat when headless chicken Abraham came on and helped out a bit up front. It hardly ever works, but hell yea we go again and make same mistakes 4-3-3.... he'll do it again tomorrow! Anyway, BG bombed Nichols out though, so fair play, especially after giving him a chance.... having said that, Stevie Wonder could've seen that. Unless things change drastically, jury very much out on BG for me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 23:21:02 GMT
We have improved recently. Nothing wrong with 4-3-3 or any other formation,they all work and dont work. If the results carry on being poor and they sack garner i hope they get someone in who stays with the strategy. Most teams play with one out and out striker these days so why not us? Every manager has never managed before at some point. Do lucky goals count as goals? Well I can't argue that recent improvements of a win and a draw is somewhat promotion form! All goals count as goals, but I think it's disingenuous to take it out of context. We took a lucky win. I'll take that any day. The point is 1/15 wins is an unacceptable percentage, and the management team have to be held to account for that. Much like Mr Holloway is held to account for his start to his Grimsbury tenure. Again it's not the fledgling manager point I'm making, it's the issue BG has never played professionally as well. Again, not an issue if started ok, but unless you think 1/15 is very good, you'll be in the 'Nichols in' club!? I hope it works for whomever is in charge, I want us to be as successful as possible. Unfortunately I see a manager that's clueless atm. Too slow to react to midfield crisis, not proactive enough when needed. Playing one up front is fine if you play a certain way...I saw six players behind the ball on a break last Saturday, all looking at each other and sauntering forward....jch needs a strike partner and it's no coincidence we looked more if a threat when headless chicken Abraham came on and helped out a bit up front. It hardly ever works, but hell yea we go again and make same mistakes 4-3-3.... he'll do it again tomorrow! Anyway, BG bombed Nichols out though, so fair play, especially after giving him a chance.... having said that, Stevie Wonder could've seen that. Unless things change drastically, jury very much out on BG for me. The start garner has had is so bad that i get people wanting him out etc and i posted when he was appointed that i thought it would be a disaster. But right now i feel like we need to give him a chance to produce mid table form from now until the end of the season. Also i like the idea of signing young players and developing them at the club even if it is a long shot. Im sick of the virgo's,kenneths,o'riordan,bennett,gill and payne types.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 0:09:03 GMT
Well I can't argue that recent improvements of a win and a draw is somewhat promotion form! All goals count as goals, but I think it's disingenuous to take it out of context. We took a lucky win. I'll take that any day. The point is 1/15 wins is an unacceptable percentage, and the management team have to be held to account for that. Much like Mr Holloway is held to account for his start to his Grimsbury tenure. Again it's not the fledgling manager point I'm making, it's the issue BG has never played professionally as well. Again, not an issue if started ok, but unless you think 1/15 is very good, you'll be in the 'Nichols in' club!? I hope it works for whomever is in charge, I want us to be as successful as possible. Unfortunately I see a manager that's clueless atm. Too slow to react to midfield crisis, not proactive enough when needed. Playing one up front is fine if you play a certain way...I saw six players behind the ball on a break last Saturday, all looking at each other and sauntering forward....jch needs a strike partner and it's no coincidence we looked more if a threat when headless chicken Abraham came on and helped out a bit up front. It hardly ever works, but hell yea we go again and make same mistakes 4-3-3.... he'll do it again tomorrow! Anyway, BG bombed Nichols out though, so fair play, especially after giving him a chance.... having said that, Stevie Wonder could've seen that. Unless things change drastically, jury very much out on BG for me. The start garner has had is so bad that i get people wanting him out etc and i posted when he was appointed that i thought it would be a disaster. But right now i feel like we need to give him a chance to produce mid table form from now until the end of the season. Also i like the idea of signing young players and developing them at the club even if it is a long shot. Im sick of the virgo's,kenneths,o'riordan,bennett,gill and payne types. I have some empathy with this viewpoint and I think you will get your wish - he is going to be allowed to dine out on that solitary win I feel until the end of the season no matter what happens. I also don’t begrudge him lucky goals just as he has to suck up games where we lost because we had bad luck. That’s the way it goes. You create your own luck over the course of a season- Coughlan scraped a lot of his wins but still earned them because of the number of shots on goal we had. The problem is that this one win against Blackpool is being used by fans who want to see this experiment work as day zero. He’s got his first win so the clock is reset and it’s disingenuous because it was a rotten Blackpool who had just sacked their manager and who were down to 10 men. The teams we face from here on will not be as bad as that and will likely know how to beat us and that makes me worry for Garner. I’ll be very surprised if we win any of the next 6 which would leave him with a record of 1 win from 21! Yet his supporters will cling to that single win against a s***e Blackpool like a drowning man who spots a plank of wood floating by. That win could end up being lucky for Garner but end up setting the club back quite a bit. If (or should I say when) he goes I’d like to see us be progressive but not so radical. Get an elder statesman of the game who knows a thing about passing football and give him a 5 year remit to be DOF and provide continuity whilst being a hand on the tiller for a young hungry manager to be the day to day boss. So the manager comes and goes but the DOF provides continuity. Also change the focus from youth to hidden gems of all ages who might be playing in the lower leagues and able to make the step up. Such an approach would require a lot of investment in scouting which we don’t have so maybe this is not feasible especially when paying a DOF AND a coach.
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