|
Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 21, 2020 11:51:19 GMT
Interesting article about Brentford here: www.sportperformanceanalysis.com/article/2018/6/8/the-history-of-brentford-football-analytics. This does not look remotely like Bristol Rovers. The owner (Matthew Benham) is a lifelong fan. "invested over £90 million in improving the team's training facilities, stadium and developing a youth academy". "Since 2005, no academy player had debut in the first team. Not only that, the best talent being produced by their academy was being stolen away by top clubs in the Premier League at young ages when Brentford was not due compensation for the transfer. The situation meant that the large investments being made in developing young talent were not returning any positive results to the club. This is why Brentford FC decided to completely close their academy and solely focus on recruitment from other clubs". "The long-term philosophy that Brentford FC have been implementing over the last 6 years... is hoping to see a club being run by analytics, sound business strategy and statistically-based decision making". (To be fair - not sure what status the "youth academy" now has - but obviously there is a major problem in nurturing young talent and losing them for a pittance). Well there we go then, even the much vaunted Brentford with their highly rated academy couldn’t make it work. But don’t worry, where Brentford and their highly intelligent former trader chairman failed Wally, Garner and the fox s*** ridden training ground will succeed. Not noticed Alfie Kilgour or Rollin Menayese or Cameron Hargreaves in the squad this year then? It may have escaped your attention that Micheal Kelly and Ollie Clarke were also homered grown products. Ok we lost Lockyer for nothing after 6 years as a pro here, a bit disappointing, but you also have to think of the money saved on transfer, agents and signing on fees by developing youth. So if you read carefully the reasons for Brentford shutting it down, no player broke through to the first team and the PL clubs were nicking talent. We have 6 youth players in and around the Matchday squad and another load of talent earning their stripes just behind them. Players like Hoole, Tomlinson and Walker and the last player we lost to a PL club was Donovan Wilson who went to Wolves ( who were championship at the time). A comparable club to us which has a good youth system is Exeter, look at the players they have sold on for a profit. But don’t let any of the above stop you aiming a cheap shot at the club.
|
|
eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,109
|
Post by eppinggas on Feb 21, 2020 11:56:51 GMT
Well there we go then, even the much vaunted Brentford with their highly rated academy couldn’t make it work. But don’t worry, where Brentford and their highly intelligent former trader chairman failed Wally, Garner and the fox s*** ridden training ground will succeed. Not noticed Alfie Kilgour or Rollin Menayese or Cameron Hargreaves in the squad this year then? It may have escaped your attention that Micheal Kelly and Ollie Clarke were also homered grown products. Ok we lost Lockyer for nothing after 6 years as a pro here, a bit disappointing, but you also have to think of the money saved on transfer, agents and signing on fees by developing youth. So if you read carefully the reasons for Brentford shutting it down, no player broke through to the first team and the PL clubs were nicking talent. We have 6 youth players in and around the Matchday squad and another load of talent earning their stripes just behind them. Players like Hoole, Tomlinson and Walker and the last player we lost to a PL club was Donovan Wilson who went to Wolves ( who were championship at the time). A comparable club to us which has a good youth system is Exeter, look at the players they have sold on for a profit. But don’t let any of the above stop you aiming a cheap shot at the club. I don't disagree with you ITB. We are trying to emulate Exeter, NOT Brentford. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Because it's the only option we have.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 11:58:06 GMT
Brentford were mainly struggling because you have a plethora of PL clubs on their doorstep who can offer the best facilities without the player having to up and move. It’s also harder for a player to break into a championship side and a much higher financial risk for them to collect academy players and send them on loan to a L1/L2 then have them disappear. For us it’s working well and should do and something we have long relied upon. What is working well? Who have we sold for big bucks from the development squad? None of them seem to be good enough to hold down a place in the first team to the extent that we have literally airlifted in a rake of players that don’t belong to us to develop them instead. We lost a first teamer on a free who we developed into the player he is today. We did sell one youth prospect for about 750k which, by my reckoning, will have effectively funded the under-performing development side for about 2 and a half seasons. There is nothing in that lot that is working particularly well at all and to my mind a conversation needs to be had about whether the development squad is actually bringing any sort of value to the club at all as it’s been in place now for some 3 seasons and produced nothing for us. Of course, the loans and deadline day signings may come good but as we have seen with the Chelsea loanees and Boateng young players are more likely to be miss than hit so you need a top notch scouting system to pick out the best ones and given that for every JCH our scouting system has given us an Upson and a Leahy I don’t believe it is anywhere near good enough to make a decent fist of recruiting mostly youngsters who have a future in the game. I shall very much stand to be corrected though, I just don’t see what evidence there has been that this has worked for us in the past or present to make us confident that it will work in the future and isn’t actually just some “hit and hope” policy by the owner to cover up for both a lack of funding and a lack of interest. Harrison,lockyer and ollie clarke were signed as youngsters at rovers and played a full part in 2 promotions and establishing the club in league one. To me that is a massive success. Regarding the development squad menayese,hargreaves,kelly and tomlinson have all played first team football but apart from that it provides valuable game time for fringe players and players returning from injury. What garner is trying to do along with wael is make the playing side of the club sustainable which is sensible surely?
|
|
eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,109
|
Post by eppinggas on Feb 21, 2020 11:59:49 GMT
To be fair I think that Exeter also use voodoo, blackmail and intimidation as well. They sold Tom Nichols to Posh for £325k.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 11:59:53 GMT
The "similar" is that brentford identify young players with potential,sign them and have had amazing success selling them on for massive profit while still improving as a team. Thats exactly what garner is trying to do at rovers. Coventry are attempting to do a similar thing as well. You have conveniently over-looked the small niggling detail of the £90mil investment. We will struggle to recruit any worthwhile 'talent' whilst we don't even have training ground to call our own. (Let alone a Stadium that's fit for purpose). Our "strategy" is dictated by the fact that WE DO NOT HAVE ANY MONEY. It's back to hopefully getting some decent youngsters in, feeding them some magic beans and bingo they're all worth millions in the future. Luck and chemistry anyone? Same as it as ever was, same as it ever was. So you have wrote off daly,harries and barrett?
|
|
eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,109
|
Post by eppinggas on Feb 21, 2020 12:02:00 GMT
What is working well? Who have we sold for big bucks from the development squad? None of them seem to be good enough to hold down a place in the first team to the extent that we have literally airlifted in a rake of players that don’t belong to us to develop them instead. We lost a first teamer on a free who we developed into the player he is today. We did sell one youth prospect for about 750k which, by my reckoning, will have effectively funded the under-performing development side for about 2 and a half seasons. There is nothing in that lot that is working particularly well at all and to my mind a conversation needs to be had about whether the development squad is actually bringing any sort of value to the club at all as it’s been in place now for some 3 seasons and produced nothing for us. Of course, the loans and deadline day signings may come good but as we have seen with the Chelsea loanees and Boateng young players are more likely to be miss than hit so you need a top notch scouting system to pick out the best ones and given that for every JCH our scouting system has given us an Upson and a Leahy I don’t believe it is anywhere near good enough to make a decent fist of recruiting mostly youngsters who have a future in the game. I shall very much stand to be corrected though, I just don’t see what evidence there has been that this has worked for us in the past or present to make us confident that it will work in the future and isn’t actually just some “hit and hope” policy by the owner to cover up for both a lack of funding and a lack of interest. Harrison,lockyer and ollie clarke were signed as youngsters at rovers and played a full part in 2 promotions and establishing the club in league one. To me that is a massive success. Regarding the development squad menayese,hargreaves,kelly and tomlinson have all played first team football but apart from that it provides valuable game time for fringe players and players returning from injury. What garner is trying to do along with wael is make the playing side of the club sustainable which is sensible surely? What a shame it took 4 years for the penny to drop then.
|
|
eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,109
|
Post by eppinggas on Feb 21, 2020 12:05:02 GMT
You have conveniently over-looked the small niggling detail of the £90mil investment. We will struggle to recruit any worthwhile 'talent' whilst we don't even have training ground to call our own. (Let alone a Stadium that's fit for purpose). Our "strategy" is dictated by the fact that WE DO NOT HAVE ANY MONEY. It's back to hopefully getting some decent youngsters in, feeding them some magic beans and bingo they're all worth millions in the future. Luck and chemistry anyone? Same as it as ever was, same as it ever was. So you have wrote off daly,harries and barrett? I haven't written them off - no. In fact I quite like the look of Barrett (will be interesting to see when he has shed a few pounds). How many minutes in total have all 3 played? A would say a trifle early to judge.
|
|
|
Post by a more piratey game on Feb 21, 2020 12:12:37 GMT
To be fair I think that Exeter also use voodoo, blackmail and intimidation as well. They sold Tom Nichols to Posh for £325k. feng shui, anyone?
|
|
TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,327
|
Post by TaiwanGas on Feb 21, 2020 12:17:40 GMT
Well there we go then, even the much vaunted Brentford with their highly rated academy couldn’t make it work. But don’t worry, where Brentford and their highly intelligent former trader chairman failed Wally, Garner and the fox s*** ridden training ground will succeed. Not noticed Alfie Kilgour or Rollin Menayese or Cameron Hargreaves in the squad this year then? It may have escaped your attention that Micheal Kelly and Ollie Clarke were also homered grown products. Ok we lost Lockyer for nothing after 6 years as a pro here, a bit disappointing, but you also have to think of the money saved on transfer, agents and signing on fees by developing youth. So if you read carefully the reasons for Brentford shutting it down, no player broke through to the first team and the PL clubs were nicking talent. We have 6 youth players in and around the Matchday squad and another load of talent earning their stripes just behind them. Players like Hoole, Tomlinson and Walker and the last player we lost to a PL club was Donovan Wilson who went to Wolves ( who were championship at the time). A comparable club to us which has a good youth system is Exeter, look at the players they have sold on for a profit. But don’t let any of the above stop you aiming a cheap shot at the club. We signed Rollin Menayese from Weston in 2017.
|
|
warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,421
|
Post by warehamgas on Feb 21, 2020 12:38:36 GMT
I guess that particular aspect of our owners time at the club has been fairly consistent. Istr Wael saying on the day he bought us that he saw us developing a development team and improving our youngsters, building from the bottom wherever you want to call it. And I’d say, without having done the stats on comparable clubs, that we’ve done ok in developing youth players in our way. Ollie C, Tom L, Ellis, Hargreaves, Kelly, Alfie, Rollin have all come through the squad. I would have thought that we would compare well against other League 1 clubs for developing our own players. And I guess Billy B and Matt T came through the “Brentford way”, we took them on when they’d been released or not wanted and sold them on. In the end it comes down to opinions and I’d say with our lack of facilities we will always be down the list when players from other clubs, after being released, decide where to go. I would have thought there would always be other more attractive options. But developing our own, as we are, they don’t have those comparisons and I expect 5hat most will bite our hand off to get a professional contract after coming through the ranks. UTG!
ps. Yes, that article is interesting and seeing how Brentford develop esp with the new ground and being in the play offs over the next two years will influence a lot if similar sized clubs.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 12:42:12 GMT
Kelly & Menayese both played senior football prior to signing for the club, let's not muddle up Youth Team Alumni with Development Squad Alumni.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 12:47:29 GMT
Not noticed Alfie Kilgour or Rollin Menayese or Cameron Hargreaves in the squad this year then? It may have escaped your attention that Micheal Kelly and Ollie Clarke were also homered grown products. Ok we lost Lockyer for nothing after 6 years as a pro here, a bit disappointing, but you also have to think of the money saved on transfer, agents and signing on fees by developing youth. So if you read carefully the reasons for Brentford shutting it down, no player broke through to the first team and the PL clubs were nicking talent. We have 6 youth players in and around the Matchday squad and another load of talent earning their stripes just behind them. Players like Hoole, Tomlinson and Walker and the last player we lost to a PL club was Donovan Wilson who went to Wolves ( who were championship at the time). A comparable club to us which has a good youth system is Exeter, look at the players they have sold on for a profit. But don’t let any of the above stop you aiming a cheap shot at the club. We signed Rollin Menayese from Weston in 2017. We signed him and he played a lot of football in the development squad without which we would have had nowhere to play him until he was ready for first team football.
|
|
Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,920
|
Post by Peter Parker on Feb 21, 2020 12:50:43 GMT
To be fair I think that Exeter also use voodoo, blackmail and intimidation as well. They sold Tom Nichols to Posh for £325k. Or because he scored Goals
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 12:55:50 GMT
Kelly & Menayese both played senior football prior to signing for the club, let's not muddle up Youth Team Alumni with Development Squad Alumni. Thats part of the whole development squad idea though. Raw young weston player menayese and aberdeen/leicester reject kelly impress in the development squad on short cheap contracts and earn better deals. Who did kelly play senior football for?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 12:57:48 GMT
Kelly & Menayese both played senior football prior to signing for the club, let's not muddle up Youth Team Alumni with Development Squad Alumni. Thats part of the whole development squad idea though. Raw young weston player menayese and aberdeen/leicester reject kelly impress in the development squad on short cheap contracts and earn better deals. Who did kelly play senior football for? Hurlford United.
It's interesting that we seemingly have had more success from the first Development squad than ones since.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 13:20:51 GMT
If we don't sign young players that we may be able to sell on down the line who are we supposed to sign?
Average league One footballers, 'exciting' League Two or Conference players or older players dropping down the leagues on big money
Who does everyone else with our budget sign? There are far more signing the players you describe (and having some reasonable success) than there are trying to fashion a team comprised of 70%+ youth into a respected outfit. Who was it who said “you win nowt with kids” again?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 13:29:36 GMT
Well there we go then, even the much vaunted Brentford with their highly rated academy couldn’t make it work. But don’t worry, where Brentford and their highly intelligent former trader chairman failed Wally, Garner and the fox s*** ridden training ground will succeed. Not noticed Alfie Kilgour or Rollin Menayese or Cameron Hargreaves in the squad this year then? It may have escaped your attention that Micheal Kelly and Ollie Clarke were also homered grown products. Ok we lost Lockyer for nothing after 6 years as a pro here, a bit disappointing, but you also have to think of the money saved on transfer, agents and signing on fees by developing youth. So if you read carefully the reasons for Brentford shutting it down, no player broke through to the first team and the PL clubs were nicking talent. We have 6 youth players in and around the Matchday squad and another load of talent earning their stripes just behind them. Players like Hoole, Tomlinson and Walker and the last player we lost to a PL club was Donovan Wilson who went to Wolves ( who were championship at the time). A comparable club to us which has a good youth system is Exeter, look at the players they have sold on for a profit. But don’t let any of the above stop you aiming a cheap shot at the club. What chance do they have of breaking through though if the club prefer to sign fat kids from other teams? You can have a go at me but you would be better served having a go at the club because they are the one undermining our own development team by preferring to loan other clubs players and develop them instead. That’s a big slap in the face to the concept of even having a development squad. Following January we now have a bumper squad comprised of our own senior and other clubs youth players- where do the development squad players get a look in now?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 13:45:19 GMT
If we don't sign young players that we may be able to sell on down the line who are we supposed to sign?
Average league One footballers, 'exciting' League Two or Conference players or older players dropping down the leagues on big money
Who does everyone else with our budget sign? There are far more signing the players you describe (and having some reasonable success) than there are trying to fashion a team comprised of 70%+ youth into a respected outfit. Who was it who said “you win nowt with kids” again? We have been doing what every other similar league 1 and league 2 club has been doing for years and like them we simply play in league 1 and 2 and lose money. We signed upson,ogogo,rodman and bennett who have had varying degrees of success but have no realistic chance of having resale value. So now the club are trying something different. It was alan hansen who made the "you win nowt with kids" quote about man utd. Believe they won the treble after he said it.
|
|
|
Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 21, 2020 13:55:09 GMT
Not noticed Alfie Kilgour or Rollin Menayese or Cameron Hargreaves in the squad this year then? It may have escaped your attention that Micheal Kelly and Ollie Clarke were also homered grown products. Ok we lost Lockyer for nothing after 6 years as a pro here, a bit disappointing, but you also have to think of the money saved on transfer, agents and signing on fees by developing youth. So if you read carefully the reasons for Brentford shutting it down, no player broke through to the first team and the PL clubs were nicking talent. We have 6 youth players in and around the Matchday squad and another load of talent earning their stripes just behind them. Players like Hoole, Tomlinson and Walker and the last player we lost to a PL club was Donovan Wilson who went to Wolves ( who were championship at the time). A comparable club to us which has a good youth system is Exeter, look at the players they have sold on for a profit. But don’t let any of the above stop you aiming a cheap shot at the club. What chance do they have of breaking through though if the club prefer to sign fat kids from other teams? You can have a go at me but you would be better served having a go at the club because they are the one undermining our own development team by preferring to loan other clubs players and develop them instead. That’s a big slap in the face to the concept of even having a development squad. Following January we now have a bumper squad comprised of our own senior and other clubs youth players- where do the development squad players get a look in now? Rickie Lambert was a fat kid from another team once... You aren’t going to create a youth team and development team and expect results in 1 season. It takes years for talent to be bred through. The fact we are seeing results 3 years in to that investment is about right and to be honest, probably slightly ahead of schedule.
|
|
|
Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 21, 2020 14:00:03 GMT
Kelly & Menayese both played senior football prior to signing for the club, let's not muddle up Youth Team Alumni with Development Squad Alumni. Youth academy and dev squad are under the same banner as far as I’m concerned. The U16s and U18s have nowhere to go without the dev squad and we can’t sign U23 players that have been rejected by prem clubs without a dev squad. The 2 go hand in hand.
|
|