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Post by swissgas on Feb 24, 2020 17:56:47 GMT
Whilst respecting the views of irishrover and Oldie about the Ben Garner appointment being part of a long term project I am afraid the evidence for it doesn't stack up.
If it really had been a planned project surely our owner would have come out with a show of confidence and strength to demonstrate that, although the new stadium plans had not been realised, we were at least being proactive with a new football strategy. We would have been told about a new training ground which was going to be the base for the project and had it explained to us that building our own ground at Almondsbury was out of reach at the moment so we were choosing an alternative rented facility which would fit the bill for what Ben was aiming to do. And that Ben himself was going to be supported by a team of new coaches he had chosen specifically to help him bring about the player development we were looking to succeed with.
But none of this has happened so, to me, the logical conclusion is that this is a "typical Rovers cock up" with a cheap and available manager replacement being found and then a story spun to make it look as though we knew what we were doing.
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
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Post by trymer on Feb 24, 2020 17:57:17 GMT
Wmgas /Irishrover:According to Ray Kendall in his autobiography, after losing a game Terry Cooper was asked by directors why. He was straight and honest about it (with Yorkshire bluntness) and said "we were crap", or words to that effect. He was sacked hours later. A shame that Cooper got the job in the first place as it should have gone to Harold Jarman.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 18:41:46 GMT
If this was a one off I would agree, but this is just one in a number of recent incidents- he gave it the big one about needing a strong referee in the week which wasn’t on imo and now he’s suggesting the crowd got to the ref even though he had every excuse to give Sunderland a pen in the first half. Plus he blamed the ref after we lost to Wycombe. Fix it on the training pitch and not by writing to the FA. I think managers are on a hiding to nothing in postmatch interviews. If they take it on the chin and identify where there are problems with the team than fans always say 'stop telling us what's wrong with the team and fix it' and if they don't do that they get accused of being dishonest and deflection. I think Garner deals with the media pretty well on the whole. Some of it is probably just trying not to get perceived as a pushover.
Criticism of Garner is understandable but I think it has to be fair. Clearly results have been very poor and performances mixed but I don't think that means that everything he does is terrible. I like some of the signings for example, I like some of the things he is getting the team to do. For example, they seem to shoot more, there is a higher defensive line than under GC and much more emphasis on support around JCH. It's pretty clear that he's not going anywhere and that this season is being treated as a kind of trial period to shape what he wants to do next season. Many reasons to find that ridiculous given we were 4th at the time but I can't completely blame Garner for following through on what is clearly a deliberate strategy from the club. In short I don't think it's Garner's fault that we are not having a crack at promotion. He's clearly been hired as part of a deliberate shift in approach that is a longer term project than where we finish this year.So while he's building himself a massive hole here with a lot of fans he's going to get the time to climb out of it.
Previous manager leaves with us in 4th place and top of the rolling 12 month form charts, so owners decide that what's needed is a root and branch review and to change everything so that we can improve next season. Preposterous to label that something that is 'clearly a deliberate strategy'.
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Peter Parker
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Richard Walker
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Post by Peter Parker on Feb 24, 2020 18:55:03 GMT
I think managers are on a hiding to nothing in postmatch interviews. If they take it on the chin and identify where there are problems with the team than fans always say 'stop telling us what's wrong with the team and fix it' and if they don't do that they get accused of being dishonest and deflection. I think Garner deals with the media pretty well on the whole. Some of it is probably just trying not to get perceived as a pushover.
Criticism of Garner is understandable but I think it has to be fair. Clearly results have been very poor and performances mixed but I don't think that means that everything he does is terrible. I like some of the signings for example, I like some of the things he is getting the team to do. For example, they seem to shoot more, there is a higher defensive line than under GC and much more emphasis on support around JCH. It's pretty clear that he's not going anywhere and that this season is being treated as a kind of trial period to shape what he wants to do next season. Many reasons to find that ridiculous given we were 4th at the time but I can't completely blame Garner for following through on what is clearly a deliberate strategy from the club. In short I don't think it's Garner's fault that we are not having a crack at promotion. He's clearly been hired as part of a deliberate shift in approach that is a longer term project than where we finish this year.So while he's building himself a massive hole here with a lot of fans he's going to get the time to climb out of it.
Previous manager leaves with us in 4th place and top of the rolling 12 month form charts, so owners decide that what's needed is a root and branch review and to change everything so that we can improve next season. Preposterous to label that something that is 'clearly a deliberate strategy'. Maybe not deliberate per se, but many fans were saying how boring it was inder GC. Crowds were dropping despite our position Whatever was going on with GC allowed them to do somethhing different
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 19:00:15 GMT
If this was a one off I would agree, but this is just one in a number of recent incidents- he gave it the big one about needing a strong referee in the week which wasn’t on imo and now he’s suggesting the crowd got to the ref even though he had every excuse to give Sunderland a pen in the first half. Plus he blamed the ref after we lost to Wycombe. Fix it on the training pitch and not by writing to the FA. I think managers are on a hiding to nothing in postmatch interviews. If they take it on the chin and identify where there are problems with the team than fans always say 'stop telling us what's wrong with the team and fix it' and if they don't do that they get accused of being dishonest and deflection. I think Garner deals with the media pretty well on the whole. Some of it is probably just trying not to get perceived as a pushover.
Criticism of Garner is understandable but I think it has to be fair. Clearly results have been very poor and performances mixed but I don't think that means that everything he does is terrible. I like some of the signings for example, I like some of the things he is getting the team to do. For example, they seem to shoot more, there is a higher defensive line than under GC and much more emphasis on support around JCH. It's pretty clear that he's not going anywhere and that this season is being treated as a kind of trial period to shape what he wants to do next season. Many reasons to find that ridiculous given we were 4th at the time but I can't completely blame Garner for following through on what is clearly a deliberate strategy from the club. In short I don't think it's Garner's fault that we are not having a crack at promotion. He's clearly been hired as part of a deliberate shift in approach that is a longer term project than where we finish this year.So while he's building himself a massive hole here with a lot of fans he's going to get the time to climb out of it.
Some fair points there and you are right that ultimately the club have given him the remit to do what he’s doing and they need to cop for a vast majority of the stick. When I question my own objectivity I ask whether I am giving Garner less of a chance because we had something to play for this season? And the answer to that is that I probably am. My anger at our failure to build on Coughlan’s work is being directed at Garner especially because he said he wasn’t going to change anything when, to my eyes, there was a clear switch to more football between the Peterborough and Wimbledon games. He has come in and tried to change things too soon and too much but you are right to point out that he is doing what he was given a mandate for by the board. And yes, he isn’t going anywhere is he? So I suppose it goes two ways: you either blindly support his methods simply because nothing will change anyway or you continue to point out what a bad decision it was even though it’s pointless. I struggle with the former because at least I said from the start it was the wrong man at the wrong time. I’ve not seen anything since that has made me think otherwise. There might be little pyrrhic victories here and there in our play but the bigger picture is that he is still showing very little aptitude for the core mechanics of actual management, chiefly reacting to swings in momentum in the game itself. It makes me scratch my head and wonder, at what other club would a manager be allowed to continue with one win in 16, and not a particularly impressive win at that. I get the likes of Gary Johnson and DC had bad initial runs but I’ve yet to hear of a league club giving a guy his first start in management and tolerating such a seeming lack of nous for how to win a game. That’s the thing with BG, he has no pedigree to point to to say “well he’s turned it around before, he knows what he’s doing”.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 19:02:42 GMT
Previous manager leaves with us in 4th place and top of the rolling 12 month form charts, so owners decide that what's needed is a root and branch review and to change everything so that we can improve next season. Preposterous to label that something that is 'clearly a deliberate strategy'. Maybe not deliberate per se, but many fans were saying how boring it was inder GC. Crowds were dropping despite our position Whatever was going on with GC allowed them to do somethhing different Doesn't it raised even half an eyebrow that Garner was appointed so quickly and we didn't go through the usual process of talking to 'outstanding candidates'?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 19:03:11 GMT
Whilst respecting the views of irishrover and Oldie about the Ben Garner appointment being part of a long term project I am afraid the evidence for it doesn't stack up. If it really had been a planned project surely our owner would have come out with a show of confidence and strength to demonstrate that, although the new stadium plans had not been realised, we were at least being proactive with a new football strategy. We would have been told about a new training ground which was going to be the base for the project and had it explained to us that building our own ground at Almondsbury was out of reach at the moment so we were choosing an alternative rented facility which would fit the bill for what Ben was aiming to do. And that Ben himself was going to be supported by a team of new coaches he had chosen specifically to help him bring about the player development we were looking to succeed with. But none of this has happened so, to me, the logical conclusion is that this is a "typical Rovers cock up" with a cheap and available manager replacement being found and then a story spun to make it look as though we knew what we were doing. It’s an interesting point about coaches because he doesn’t have a number two yet, as far as I am aware (Maher and Mansell apparently are coaches and not his assistant manager). I wonder if this is his choice or a cost cutting measure by the board?
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Peter Parker
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Richard Walker
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Post by Peter Parker on Feb 24, 2020 19:15:16 GMT
Maybe not deliberate per se, but many fans were saying how boring it was inder GC. Crowds were dropping despite our position Whatever was going on with GC allowed them to do somethhing different Doesn't it raised even half an eyebrow that Garner was appointed so quickly and we didn't go through the usual process of talking to 'outstanding candidates'? Yes and no. Allegedly he was a candidate back before GC was appointed permanently. If they had talked before, and he was already on the radar than a quick appointment is not a suprise But of course i am not aware of who and who they didnt interview and when
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Post by laughinggas on Feb 24, 2020 19:31:18 GMT
I thought that Nathan Jones was approached but he wanted to stay in championship.
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Post by littlestokegas on Feb 24, 2020 19:39:38 GMT
Is there any truth do you think in the rumour that GC left in an angry way when he heard that the 'Board' had colluded with BG and were planning for him to take over. No wonder GC said after the win at Ipswich "I don't knot how much further I can take this team". I feel that the Board were Sh***ing on GC and he found out.
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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 24, 2020 19:46:10 GMT
I thought that Nathan Jones was approached but he wanted to stay in championship. Correct... Or rather he thinks he can get another job in the championship.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 24, 2020 19:48:00 GMT
I think managers are on a hiding to nothing in postmatch interviews. If they take it on the chin and identify where there are problems with the team than fans always say 'stop telling us what's wrong with the team and fix it' and if they don't do that they get accused of being dishonest and deflection. I think Garner deals with the media pretty well on the whole. Some of it is probably just trying not to get perceived as a pushover.
Criticism of Garner is understandable but I think it has to be fair. Clearly results have been very poor and performances mixed but I don't think that means that everything he does is terrible. I like some of the signings for example, I like some of the things he is getting the team to do. For example, they seem to shoot more, there is a higher defensive line than under GC and much more emphasis on support around JCH. It's pretty clear that he's not going anywhere and that this season is being treated as a kind of trial period to shape what he wants to do next season. Many reasons to find that ridiculous given we were 4th at the time but I can't completely blame Garner for following through on what is clearly a deliberate strategy from the club. In short I don't think it's Garner's fault that we are not having a crack at promotion. He's clearly been hired as part of a deliberate shift in approach that is a longer term project than where we finish this year.So while he's building himself a massive hole here with a lot of fans he's going to get the time to climb out of it.
Some fair points there and you are right that ultimately the club have given him the remit to do what he’s doing and they need to cop for a vast majority of the stick. When I question my own objectivity I ask whether I am giving Garner less of a chance because we had something to play for this season? And the answer to that is that I probably am. My anger at our failure to build on Coughlan’s work is being directed at Garner especially because he said he wasn’t going to change anything when, to my eyes, there was a clear switch to more football between the Peterborough and Wimbledon games. He has come in and tried to change things too soon and too much but you are right to point out that he is doing what he was given a mandate for by the board. And yes, he isn’t going anywhere is he? So I suppose it goes two ways: you either blindly support his methods simply because nothing will change anyway or you continue to point out what a bad decision it was even though it’s pointless. I struggle with the former because at least I said from the start it was the wrong man at the wrong time. I’ve not seen anything since that has made me think otherwise. There might be little pyrrhic victories here and there in our play but the bigger picture is that he is still showing very little aptitude for the core mechanics of actual management, chiefly reacting to swings in momentum in the game itself. It makes me scratch my head and wonder, at what other club would a manager be allowed to continue with one win in 16, and not a particularly impressive win at that. I get the likes of Gary Johnson and DC had bad initial runs but I’ve yet to hear of a league club giving a guy his first start in management and tolerating such a seeming lack of nous for how to win a game. That’s the thing with BG, he has no pedigree to point to to say “well he’s turned it around before, he knows what he’s doing”. Nice post. Sums up frustrations accurately.
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Post by lostinspace on Feb 24, 2020 20:05:11 GMT
Is there any truth do you think in the rumour that GC left in an angry way when he heard that the 'Board' had colluded with BG and were planning for him to take over. No wonder GC said after the win at Ipswich "I don't knot how much further I can take this team". I feel that the Board were Sh***ing on GC and he found out. thought there was strong talks on here that he[BG] had been approached some time before GC walked out,[ and had watched Rovers several times this season], and who would blame him, but his excuse at the time , i get the feeling was one to mask that knowledge
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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 24, 2020 20:11:27 GMT
Is there any truth do you think in the rumour that GC left in an angry way when he heard that the 'Board' had colluded with BG and were planning for him to take over. No wonder GC said after the win at Ipswich "I don't knot how much further I can take this team". I feel that the Board were Sh***ing on GC and he found out. I would say there is no truth in that rumour. How was the board 💩ing on GC exactly? It seems absolutely contemptuous to some that it was GC that shot himself in the feet and that he actually considered leaving of his own free will. What I do know is that if GC has kept his trap shut, he would have still been our manager if he had wanted to be, as come the Sunday morning he was on the phone begging for his job back by which time he has made his own position untenable. .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 20:44:39 GMT
Is there any truth do you think in the rumour that GC left in an angry way when he heard that the 'Board' had colluded with BG and were planning for him to take over. No wonder GC said after the win at Ipswich "I don't knot how much further I can take this team". I feel that the Board were Sh***ing on GC and he found out. I would say there is no truth in that rumour. How was the board 💩ing on GC exactly? It seems absolutely contemptuous to some that it was GC that shot himself in the feet and that he actually considered leaving of his own free will. What I do know is that if GC has kept his trap shut, he would have still been our manager if he had wanted to be, as come the Sunday morning he was on the phone begging for his job back by which time he has made his own position untenable. . So, he just decided, for no reason, to get extremely upset and all but resign during a post match interview? Luckily for me I don't have people around those tatty little rooms that we laughably call 'Executive Boxes' feeding me their slanted version of events.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 20:50:10 GMT
What I do know is that if GC has kept his trap shut, he would have still been our manager if he had wanted to be, as come the Sunday morning he was on the phone begging for his job back by which time he has made his own position untenable. I don't think this happened.
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Post by lostinspace on Feb 24, 2020 20:57:42 GMT
What I do know is that if GC has kept his trap shut, he would have still been our manager if he had wanted to be, as come the Sunday morning he was on the phone begging for his job back by which time he has made his own position untenable. I don't think this happened. just one of the reasons you either love this site/club !! always contradicting versions of everything and know one knows exactly what to believe.. no wonder Walt Disney made billions !!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 21:21:46 GMT
Is there any truth do you think in the rumour that GC left in an angry way when he heard that the 'Board' had colluded with BG and were planning for him to take over. No wonder GC said after the win at Ipswich "I don't knot how much further I can take this team". I feel that the Board were Sh***ing on GC and he found out. I would say there is no truth in that rumour. How was the board 💩ing on GC exactly? It seems absolutely contemptuous to some that it was GC that shot himself in the feet and that he actually considered leaving of his own free will. What I do know is that if GC has kept his trap shut, he would have still been our manager if he had wanted to be, as come the Sunday morning he was on the phone begging for his job back by which time he has made his own position untenable. . Wael’s been saving face I see
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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 24, 2020 21:36:35 GMT
I would say there is no truth in that rumour. How was the board 💩ing on GC exactly? It seems absolutely contemptuous to some that it was GC that shot himself in the feet and that he actually considered leaving of his own free will. What I do know is that if GC has kept his trap shut, he would have still been our manager if he had wanted to be, as come the Sunday morning he was on the phone begging for his job back by which time he has made his own position untenable. . So, he just decided, for no reason, to get extremely upset and all but resign during a post match interview? Luckily for me I don't have people around those tatty little rooms that we laughably call 'Executive Boxes' feeding me their slanted version of events. Mansfield did a cracking job of tapping him up and getting in his head pre game didnt they?! GC by nature is an emotional creature, it was a melting pot of the approach, him probably telling his family and getting some pressure there and then it spilling into the dressing room and then the result. And lets be honest, our own fans have to take some responsibility for it as well, we, as a whole club never took to him or his style of football, 50% of the fanbase whinged about his low press and long and high ball tactics, rather than appreciating the results he was getting. In all honesty, he probably didnt mean to say what he did, in the context that he did, but what he did say instantly made his position untenable. I've seen some managers come out and tell absolute believable barefaced lies that they are staying and the interest is flattering but they are happy at their club only to move 24 hours later. Oh and thats from by completely unbiased, tittle tattle free and horizontal perspective, which I like to call my own opinion...lets see if you're capable?!
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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 24, 2020 21:39:28 GMT
I would say there is no truth in that rumour. How was the board 💩ing on GC exactly? It seems absolutely contemptuous to some that it was GC that shot himself in the feet and that he actually considered leaving of his own free will. What I do know is that if GC has kept his trap shut, he would have still been our manager if he had wanted to be, as come the Sunday morning he was on the phone begging for his job back by which time he has made his own position untenable. . Wael’s been saving face I see Wael, I believe has been in Jordan caring for and burying his father, I dont think he gives 2 hoots what I, or anyone else writes on an internet forum right now... But yeah you carry on with that logic....makes total sense...
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