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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 22, 2020 13:58:20 GMT
I don’t claim to be an expert!! Maybe not, but the post I quoted was written to discredit people who disagreed with you, when in fact, just like the rest of us, you are probably just a complete layman. I see that now. I misread. I agree, I am indeed nothing more than that!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 14:09:34 GMT
Maybe not, but the post I quoted was written to discredit people who disagreed with you, when in fact, just like the rest of us, you are probably just a complete layman. I see that now. I misread. I agree, I am indeed nothing more than that! So, are we agreed that what Garner is trying to do, even if he were capable of organising it, which I don't think he presently has the ability to do, is pointless as, if a player with the ability to deliver fast 'on the floor' football surfaces in L1 he'll be off to the 2nd tier in no time flat?
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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 22, 2020 14:10:50 GMT
I’m not sure playing football professionally makes you a good or bad manager. Plenty of ex players make terrible managers. Arsène Wenger never played professional football. I think we also need to take into account Bens personal circumstances which took hold not long after he took over. Its very difficult to be dismissive of that and we have looked much improved since his return from a leave of absence. He was also left a threadbare squad with loads on the treatment table. I also believe that him sticking with the 433 is the way forward for now. I don’t think we will see much of Tony Craig once Cian Harris is fit either. He struggles in a 4 man defence and no longer has the legs to play high pressing defence lines. Tom Davies is also a great ball playing defender so Alfie will have to up his game to play alongside him. Josh Hare is coming back who had a fantastic 1/3 season before his injury and that will suit a 433. Once Daly gets fit he will be a great foil for JCH as well. There are lots of positives and reasons why we need to stick with Ben. Kinda disagree with almost everything in the post..! Arsene played for Mulhouse and Strasbourg according to Wiki, must admit I didn't know. I know there will be exceptions, but even in further business most managers (generally) have working experience of the the employees below them. Although agree best players don't make best managers.... perhaps great captains of clubs might stand a better chance to manage successfully? Agree with his inherited squad, threadbare injury list, but even since the new year when he can bring in whom he wants (with limitations) we can't beat two of the poorest teams in division when they were both on poor form. Totally disagree with 4-3-3. It didn't work for DC GC or BG yet. What makes anyone think it will now? The maybes again..... because no one knows if Josh Hare will hit the heights of his form, and in any case why are we playing it now without him? But hey, carry on.. Positives are the maybes and hopefuls. The reality is 1/15 match wins is unacceptable. How long must it carry on? Fair enough 02. But the argument can be countered that DC signed a completely inadequate and inept squad for any formation in L1 which was highlighted with an 18 month slide and leaving us in 22nd place. GC still didn’t have the squad to make it work. BG has signed the players to potentially make it work as well as having a few coming back from injury. I agree that the run we have had was unacceptable but there were some exceptions and mitigating circumstances that, just like the Southampton manager had, could mean he turns it around. That’s not delusional, it’s being optimistic, especially when you consider that the first 15 games of messiah Clarke’s rule wasn’t that great...
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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 22, 2020 14:16:27 GMT
I see that now. I misread. I agree, I am indeed nothing more than that! So, are we agreed that what Garner is trying to do, even if he were capable of organising it, which I don't think he presently has the ability to do, is pointless as, if a player with the ability to deliver fast 'on the floor' football surfaces in L1 he'll be off to the 2nd tier in no time flat? Depends whether you think a large fee for that player is pointless or not? I’m assuming that, case in point being Harries you are referring to, who has signed a 2 1/2 year deal, has a great end of and beginning of the season and we get a bid on him next Jan, he leaves. I would see that as good business. Then the variables could be (a) we are in a position for promotion ourselves with him in the starting 11 (b) we improve his contract (c) we reject all bids if we get any (d) no one bids for him (everyone said JCH was going this Jan).
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 22, 2020 14:27:09 GMT
Kinda disagree with almost everything in the post..! Arsene played for Mulhouse and Strasbourg according to Wiki, must admit I didn't know. I know there will be exceptions, but even in further business most managers (generally) have working experience of the the employees below them. Although agree best players don't make best managers.... perhaps great captains of clubs might stand a better chance to manage successfully? Agree with his inherited squad, threadbare injury list, but even since the new year when he can bring in whom he wants (with limitations) we can't beat two of the poorest teams in division when they were both on poor form. Totally disagree with 4-3-3. It didn't work for DC GC or BG yet. What makes anyone think it will now? The maybes again..... because no one knows if Josh Hare will hit the heights of his form, and in any case why are we playing it now without him? But hey, carry on.. Positives are the maybes and hopefuls. The reality is 1/15 match wins is unacceptable. How long must it carry on? Fair enough 02. But the argument can be countered that DC signed a completely inadequate and inept squad for any formation in L1 which was highlighted with an 18 month slide and leaving us in 22nd place. GC still didn’t have the squad to make it work. BG has signed the players to potentially make it work as well as having a few coming back from injury. I agree that the run we have had was unacceptable but there were some exceptions and mitigating circumstances that, just like the Southampton manager had, could mean he turns it around. That’s not delusional, it’s being optimistic, especially when you consider that the first 15 games of messiah Clarke’s rule wasn’t that great... Nice post. Totally agree with DC and his slide 'project' I like your optimism. It'll be interesting to see which one of us plays Runaround and opts to change stance, because one of us has an opinion that has a finite validity..
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 15:27:14 GMT
So, are we agreed that what Garner is trying to do, even if he were capable of organising it, which I don't think he presently has the ability to do, is pointless as, if a player with the ability to deliver fast 'on the floor' football surfaces in L1 he'll be off to the 2nd tier in no time flat? Depends whether you think a large fee for that player is pointless or not? I’m assuming that, case in point being Harries you are referring to, who has signed a 2 1/2 year deal, has a great end of and beginning of the season and we get a bid on him next Jan, he leaves. I would see that as good business. Then the variables could be (a) we are in a position for promotion ourselves with him in the starting 11 (b) we improve his contract (c) we reject all bids if we get any (d) no one bids for him (everyone said JCH was going this Jan). The point is, we'll never have a team of Beckenbauers and De Bruynes in L1 because they'll get stolen away by higher clubs, so unless you genuinely have a conveyor belt and can churn them out, your team will constantly be disrupted by losing key people. Anyway, before high calbre players even step onto the field at this level the competent scouts see it and they are identified. May I present Exhibit 1. Scott Sinclair.
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Post by droitwichgas on Feb 22, 2020 22:22:13 GMT
Kinda disagree with almost everything in the post..! Arsene played for Mulhouse and Strasbourg according to Wiki, must admit I didn't know. I know there will be exceptions, but even in further business most managers (generally) have working experience of the the employees below them. Although agree best players don't make best managers.... perhaps great captains of clubs might stand a better chance to manage successfully? Agree with his inherited squad, threadbare injury list, but even since the new year when he can bring in whom he wants (with limitations) we can't beat two of the poorest teams in division when they were both on poor form. Totally disagree with 4-3-3. It didn't work for DC GC or BG yet. What makes anyone think it will now? The maybes again..... because no one knows if Josh Hare will hit the heights of his form, and in any case why are we playing it now without him? But hey, carry on.. Positives are the maybes and hopefuls. The reality is 1/15 match wins is unacceptable. How long must it carry on? Fair enough 02. But the argument can be countered that DC signed a completely inadequate and inept squad for any formation in L1 which was highlighted with an 18 month slide and leaving us in 22nd place. GC still didn’t have the squad to make it work. BG has signed the players to potentially make it work as well as having a few coming back from injury. I agree that the run we have had was unacceptable but there were some exceptions and mitigating circumstances that, just like the Southampton manager had, could mean he turns it around. That’s not delusional, it’s being optimistic, especially when you consider that the first 15 games of messiah Clarke’s rule wasn’t that great... What players will makes 4-4-2 work, Davies is out for season and Harries completely untried at this level, so there'sno obvious replacement for Craig? Plus Leahy is hardly a strong left back. Moving up to midfield Barrett looks a poor signing/long term project so we're stuck with the three average, on a good day, midfielders of Upson, Clarke and Ogogo, that's when the latters not suspended. Upfront it's just poor old JCH on his own. We've gone from boring negative football under GC which brought us results, to boring positive football under Garner bringing us defeats with zero attacking play. Somehow we're now worse to watch away from home than we were under DC. It's the same old story if the home team scores it's game over. Hopefully it's game over for Garner sooner rather than later.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 22:53:23 GMT
Fair enough 02. But the argument can be countered that DC signed a completely inadequate and inept squad for any formation in L1 which was highlighted with an 18 month slide and leaving us in 22nd place. GC still didn’t have the squad to make it work. BG has signed the players to potentially make it work as well as having a few coming back from injury. I agree that the run we have had was unacceptable but there were some exceptions and mitigating circumstances that, just like the Southampton manager had, could mean he turns it around. That’s not delusional, it’s being optimistic, especially when you consider that the first 15 games of messiah Clarke’s rule wasn’t that great... What players will makes 4-4-2 work, Davies is out for season and Harries completely untried at this level, so there'sno obvious replacement for Craig? Plus Leahy is hardly a strong left back. Moving up to midfield Barrett looks a poor signing/long term project so we're stuck with the three average, on a good day, midfielders of Upson, Clarke and Ogogo, that's when the latters not suspended. Upfront it's just poor old JCH on his own. We've gone from boring negative football under GC which brought us results, to boring positive football under Garner bringing us defeats with zero attacking play. Somehow we're now worse to watch away from home than we were under DC. It's the same old story if the home team scores it's game over. Hopefully it's game over for Garner sooner rather than later. That’s the crux of it isn’t it? We aren’t any better really than we were under Coughlan and are back to the worst days under DC which is a damning indictment in and of itself. We aren’t even playing sexy football and losing. It’s all just utter s**t and, whilst I certainly don’t advocate sacking him after a defeat to Sunderland I can’t help but think if this was any other club he would be gone by now based on his record over the previous 15 games. But because Rovers are run like a pub team he is allowed to blunder on until the foreseeable as his win ratio gets more and more pathetic. Not sure how long this can really be allowed to carry on, for Garner’s sake as much as anything. He will struggle to get another managerial job even in the conference at this rate.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 23, 2020 9:37:27 GMT
Fair enough 02. But the argument can be countered that DC signed a completely inadequate and inept squad for any formation in L1 which was highlighted with an 18 month slide and leaving us in 22nd place. GC still didn’t have the squad to make it work. BG has signed the players to potentially make it work as well as having a few coming back from injury. I agree that the run we have had was unacceptable but there were some exceptions and mitigating circumstances that, just like the Southampton manager had, could mean he turns it around. That’s not delusional, it’s being optimistic, especially when you consider that the first 15 games of messiah Clarke’s rule wasn’t that great... We've gone from boring negative football under GC which brought us results, to boring positive football under Garner bringing us defeats with zero attacking play. Somehow we're now worse to watch away from home than we were under DC. It's the same old story if the home team scores it's game over. Hopefully it's game over for Garner sooner rather than later. Brutal! Excellent. That's about it for me. That's a wrap.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2020 11:40:00 GMT
I think a few will be in for a shock then because Harries, by all accounts, is not a defender. He’s got good ball skills but is poor at the athletics required to defend. This for me is another potential issue with Garner, it’s just like a football manager simulator where it seems he thinks he can chuck a Rio Ferdinand like defender into the mix in a league two side and revolutionise the game without paying due respect to the fact that defenders in this league are primarily there to defend and with bloody good reason. But don’t worry everyone, Ben’s got it covered- he’s going to solve league one with ease with his Beckenbauer like centre backs and sexy wing forwards which previously have only been the preserve of champions league fixtures and world cups and we will be building statues to him whilst he lectures on why league one is so easy and asking why other clubs haven’t adopted the ball playing centre back in favour of big hulking b******s sooner. Cian Harries...is by all accounts a very good defender. A pacey, technical, ball playing centre half who has a superb accuracy rate, but I guess we can ignore expert opinions by people like Tony Mowbray and take the word of a forum member with a negative mindset. His weakness is his heading, but that can be trained and if you have an aerial ball winner next to him in TD then it’s a very good pairing for a back 4. If you want a comparison to style then look no further than Danny Cowley and how Lincoln played their way to L1. I’ll take the word of some Wales fans I know ahead of a manager who calls a youth player “the best defender in league one” thanks. Managers always come out with chest puffing crap like that to give their players confidence- they don’t seriously mean it. As for Danny Crowley, I’m not sure what your point is there? He was renowned for being a long ball merchant in the Coughlan mould.
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Post by droitwichgas on Feb 23, 2020 12:27:36 GMT
"His weakness is his heading, but that can be trained and if you have an aerial ball winner next to him in TD then it’s a very good pairing for a back 4.2
Only at Rovers could we sign a CB who can't head the ball, if he's in his early 20's and hasn't learnt to head the ball then he needs to look for a new position in the side. Regardless if we went for a back pairing of CH & TD next season where does that leave Kilgore surely not at RB?
Next week's game is a big one, as up until yesterday Shrewsbury were on a similar poor run of form, fail to beat them next Saturday and there really is little prospects of seeing many more victories this season, so we'll get to May with something like 2 or 3 wins, if we're fortunate, in well over 20 games.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2020 12:53:28 GMT
"His weakness is his heading, but that can be trained and if you have an aerial ball winner next to him in TD then it’s a very good pairing for a back 4.2 Only at Rovers could we sign a CB who can't head the ball, if he's in his early 20's and hasn't learnt to head the ball then he needs to look for a new position in the side. Regardless if we went for a back pairing of CH & TD next season where does that leave Kilgore surely not at RB? Next week's game is a big one, as up until yesterday Shrewsbury were on a similar poor run of form, fail to beat them next Saturday and there really is little prospects of seeing many more victories this season, so we'll get to May with something like 2 or 3 wins, if we're fortunate, in well over 20 games. I can see it if the plan is, as PP suggests, to replace Upson with Harries. Undoubtedly having a ball playing Joe Allen type (to use another Welsh reference) in front of the back four would be a key ingredient of a Garner side....but then given the sort of ‘hard of thinking’ display we have seen from Garner so far you would simply expect him to slot Harries into a back 4 and watch on as Leahy fails to stop a cross and Harries gets out jumped by a guy smaller than him to concede yet another goal, which the fans will blame on a crisp packet being blown onto the pitch distracting the players.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2020 13:10:34 GMT
"His weakness is his heading, but that can be trained and if you have an aerial ball winner next to him in TD then it’s a very good pairing for a back 4.2 Only at Rovers could we sign a CB who can't head the ball, if he's in his early 20's and hasn't learnt to head the ball then he needs to look for a new position in the side. Regardless if we went for a back pairing of CH & TD next season where does that leave Kilgore surely not at RB? Next week's game is a big one, as up until yesterday Shrewsbury were on a similar poor run of form, fail to beat them next Saturday and there really is little prospects of seeing many more victories this season, so we'll get to May with something like 2 or 3 wins, if we're fortunate, in well over 20 games. I always like to see a player play several games live before i judge him. I find it a bit weird that you have already made up your mind on harries.
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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 23, 2020 17:51:43 GMT
I’ve not seen full games, but various scouting videos I’ve seen shows him as a very capable centre half but I do agree with PP that he could play in front of the back 3.
IMO, the main problem BG had was having only 3 fit midfielders and all of them the worst sideways playing midfielders the club has ever had.
Abs, OC and Upson are just arthritic when it comes to forward play. Chris Lines would walk into this midfield right now.
I think I would be tempted to play Harries in Upsons Role and have Barrett and Ollie in front of him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2020 19:27:45 GMT
I’ve just been reading about the post match fall out with Garner demanding an apology. Jesus wept. I’ll give him credit for one thing: he hasn’t learnt much on the pitch but he has picked up the art of whinging about refs very quickly when I think back to the humble bloke in his first post match interview. Now it’s always the ref’s fault (except when the ref is sending off the opposition’s players).
Have some class man and keep it in house.
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Smithy Gas
Craig Hinton
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Post by Smithy Gas on Feb 24, 2020 12:33:12 GMT
I’ve not seen full games, but various scouting videos I’ve seen shows him as a very capable centre half but I do agree with PP that he could play in front of the back 3. IMO, the main problem BG had was having only 3 fit midfielders and all of them the worst sideways playing midfielders the club has ever had. Abs, OC and Upson are just arthritic when it comes to forward play. Chris Lines would walk into this midfield right now. I think I would be tempted to play Harries in Upsons Role and have Barrett and Ollie in front of him. Rob Quinn? Craig Stanley? Graham Hyde? I mean, they aren't massively dynamic and its probably the most important area to change in the summer, but that sentence might be a bit over the top!
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Feb 24, 2020 15:52:10 GMT
I’ve just been reading about the post match fall out with Garner demanding an apology. Jesus wept. I’ll give him credit for one thing: he hasn’t learnt much on the pitch but he has picked up the art of whinging about refs very quickly when I think back to the humble bloke in his first post match interview. Now it’s always the ref’s fault (except when the ref is sending off the opposition’s players). Have some class man and keep it in house. I think you're undermining your case here by framing everything Garner does as negative. Irrespective of anything else he was fully entitled to torch the ref in the postmatch interview and he did so calmly and with restraint. It was an appalling, and potentially dangerous, piece of officiating. I think 98% of managers would have done the same thing. I'd have been dissapointed if a Rovers manager hadn't said something about it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 16:12:17 GMT
I’ve just been reading about the post match fall out with Garner demanding an apology. Jesus wept. I’ll give him credit for one thing: he hasn’t learnt much on the pitch but he has picked up the art of whinging about refs very quickly when I think back to the humble bloke in his first post match interview. Now it’s always the ref’s fault (except when the ref is sending off the opposition’s players). Have some class man and keep it in house. I think you're undermining your case here by framing everything Garner does as negative. Irrespective of anything else he was fully entitled to torch the ref in the postmatch interview and he did so calmly and with restaiont. It was an appalling, and potentially dangerous, piece of officiating. I think 98% of managers would have done the same thing. I'd have been dissapointed if a Rovers manager hadn't said something about it. If this was a one off I would agree, but this is just one in a number of recent incidents- he gave it the big one about needing a strong referee in the week which wasn’t on imo and now he’s suggesting the crowd got to the ref even though he had every excuse to give Sunderland a pen in the first half. Plus he blamed the ref after we lost to Wycombe. Fix it on the training pitch and not by writing to the FA.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Feb 24, 2020 17:08:45 GMT
I think you're undermining your case here by framing everything Garner does as negative. Irrespective of anything else he was fully entitled to torch the ref in the postmatch interview and he did so calmly and with restaiont. It was an appalling, and potentially dangerous, piece of officiating. I think 98% of managers would have done the same thing. I'd have been dissapointed if a Rovers manager hadn't said something about it. If this was a one off I would agree, but this is just one in a number of recent incidents- he gave it the big one about needing a strong referee in the week which wasn’t on imo and now he’s suggesting the crowd got to the ref even though he had every excuse to give Sunderland a pen in the first half. Plus he blamed the ref after we lost to Wycombe. Fix it on the training pitch and not by writing to the FA. I think managers are on a hiding to nothing in postmatch interviews. If they take it on the chin and identify where there are problems with the team than fans always say 'stop telling us what's wrong with the team and fix it' and if they don't do that they get accused of being dishonest and deflection. I think Garner deals with the media pretty well on the whole. Some of it is probably just trying not to get perceived as a pushover.
Criticism of Garner is understandable but I think it has to be fair. Clearly results have been very poor and performances mixed but I don't think that means that everything he does is terrible. I like some of the signings for example, I like some of the things he is getting the team to do. For example, they seem to shoot more, there is a higher defensive line than under GC and much more emphasis on support around JCH. It's pretty clear that he's not going anywhere and that this season is being treated as a kind of trial period to shape what he wants to do next season. Many reasons to find that ridiculous given we were 4th at the time but I can't completely blame Garner for following through on what is clearly a deliberate strategy from the club. In short I don't think it's Garner's fault that we are not having a crack at promotion. He's clearly been hired as part of a deliberate shift in approach that is a longer term project than where we finish this year.So while he's building himself a massive hole here with a lot of fans he's going to get the time to climb out of it.
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bloogas
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Post by bloogas on Feb 24, 2020 17:40:58 GMT
Wmgas /Irishrover:According to Ray Kendall in his autobiography, after losing a game Terry Cooper was asked by directors why. He was straight and honest about it (with Yorkshire bluntness) and said "we were crap", or words to that effect. He was sacked hours later.
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