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Post by Bamber Gashead on Sept 9, 2024 12:36:32 GMT
I thought this was the Barnsley MDT not the Lee Carsley appreciation or not thread...?
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
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Post by Cheshiregas on Sept 9, 2024 13:00:12 GMT
Totally agree with this, it will be hard to find one though, Eddie Howe, Sean Dyche, Gary O'Neill & Kieran McKenna are the only English managers in the PL. And in the Championship, John Eustace, Liam Manning, Scott Parker, Mark Robins, Paul Warne, Michael Carrick, Neil Harris, Des Buckingham, Paul Heckingbottom, Wayne Rooney, John Mousinho, Chris Wilder, Steven Schumacher, Luke Williams and Tom Cleverley are the English managers there... Howe is the most obvious choice, although for me he isn't on the level of the likes of Hodgson or even Allardyce. McKenna is spoken of highly but for me he has to prove himself in the PL. Liam Manning would be hard to entice away from Trashton...the FA would have to stretch to throwing in a bacon bap, mars bar and coffee with sugar to get him to even consider the position. Setting aside his reluctance to vocalise, Carsley as manager isn't good enough...we really need to go back to producing top managers like Bobby Robson, Graham Taylor, Terry Venables, and John Ward ( who was actually part of the England U21 set up)NO of course not. Who would want a manager with an average 60+% win rate in his career and a 73% win rate as England U21 manager. You do realise he was U21 manager since 2021!!! Heaven forbid! What cup finals did Bobby Robson, Graham Taylor, Terry Venables, and John Ward get us to?
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Post by baselswh on Sept 9, 2024 13:19:56 GMT
YouTube.
"Harry and Paul - National Anthem Sketch".
My favourite football national anthem,if anyone cares to put it up please.đź‘Ť
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Post by rowdenhill on Sept 9, 2024 13:23:01 GMT
Though I missed out on a masters in sports management from Clemson or Loughborough I am over the moon (a cliché that needs reviving) about the passionate yet relatively restrained nature of this debate so far, with no need for asterisks, obelisks etc. Congratulations to all, and may the improvement in standards continue.
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Post by baldrick on Sept 9, 2024 13:58:33 GMT
Like shut up and do as you’re told kind of thing? That’s typical imperialist British thinking. Indeed CPB, I thought we lived in a free country but obviously not. Some of the players don't sing it either because they can't sing. But I guess they should do as they are told, don't want to upset Nige and Tommy! Ironically, it's not even the English national anthem.
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Post by rideintothesun on Sept 9, 2024 14:36:58 GMT
Like shut up and do as you’re told kind of thing? That’s typical imperialist British thinking. If you don’t believe in either religion or the monarchy then the anthem doesn’t really resonate. In fact Christian monarchists must be quite the minority in today’s Britain. Carsley should be applauded for his stance. Even people who aren't religious feel some degree of attachment to values and institutions that have been both directly and indirectly influenced by religion. Richard Dawkins, of all people, describes himself as 'culturally Christian'. I don't even particularly like the anthem but it is part of who we are as a nation, for better or worse. If you can think of something better, then put it forward. By the way, around three-quarters of the population support the retention of the monarchy in some form. Carsley hasn't even taken a stance, as you can tell from his laboured and drawn-out justification.
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Post by rideintothesun on Sept 9, 2024 14:42:43 GMT
Howe is the most obvious choice, although for me he isn't on the level of the likes of Hodgson or even Allardyce. McKenna is spoken of highly but for me he has to prove himself in the PL. Liam Manning would be hard to entice away from Trashton...the FA would have to stretch to throwing in a bacon bap, mars bar and coffee with sugar to get him to even consider the position. Setting aside his reluctance to vocalise, Carsley as manager isn't good enough...we really need to go back to producing top managers like Bobby Robson, Graham Taylor, Terry Venables, and John Ward ( who was actually part of the England U21 set up)NO of course not. Who would want a manager with an average 60+% win rate in his career and a 73% win rate as England U21 manager. You do realise he was U21 manager since 2021!!! Heaven forbid! What cup finals did Bobby Robson, Graham Taylor, Terry Venables, and John Ward get us to? Are you seriously claiming that Carsley's achievements are in any way comparable to Robson's or Taylor's? How about Capello? Even Eriksson was a top, top manager.
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Post by rideintothesun on Sept 9, 2024 14:57:31 GMT
More to the point, why he should be representing the English team if he holds the country and its institutions in such apparent contempt? He made the whole thing about him, despite being a glorified caretaker manager. He evidently feels more Irish than British and so would be better off managing Ireland, and City's 3-goals-in-63 appearances carthorse, which would be more his level incidentally. Neither Eriksson nor Capello should have been appointed, and I don't support the appointment of non-British managers at all. It is the British national side. If we had faced Spain, France, Germany or any other half-decent side rather than Slovakia, we would have gone out in the second round. Our record against the top teams under Southgate showed this. We barely squeaked past the Swiss and just about beat perhaps the poorest Dutch side I have ever seen (even the Euro 96 side was better). As in WC 2018 and 2020 we got lucky and then lost against the first really top side. The football, for the most part, was utter cr*p. He doesn't hold them in contempt. He's been employed as a football manager due to his high success rate, not as a cabaret singer. You obviously don't like foreign managers. Perhaps they should be cleared out of English football altogether. Didn't your favourite English manager get the job? Can I remind you that the so called half-decent sides went out before us and we went through. You remind me of West Ham fans who wanted rid of Sam Allardyce because he didn't play the West Ham way [got to their highest spot for years] and Stoke fans who wanted rid of Pulis as he didn't play exciting enough football [got them to the Prem - look where they are now] And for what it is worth some of the 1966 football wasn't brilliant. I don't like foreign managers manging the national team, no, and I think the majority of genuine football fans would agree with this. This isn't small-minded nationalism or even xenophobia. And I don't particularly like the way that football has gone in the post-1992 era. I don't think the PL is better than what was there before, and in many ways I think it is substantially worse. I agreed with Graham Taylor's objections to the PL at the time and I agree with them now. Some of the 1996 football wasn't brilliant, and a substantial part of the 1990 football wasn't either. However, it was still substantially better than a large part of what was served up over the summer. Do you honestly believe that the current squad are superior to the 1996 or 1990 teams? Gascoigne is still by far the most naturally talented player the country has produced since Hoddle. This is pretty damning, and it will continue while we continue to celebrate mediocrity and appoint managers of the calibre of Southgate and Carsley.
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Sept 9, 2024 17:40:59 GMT
NO of course not. Who would want a manager with an average 60+% win rate in his career and a 73% win rate as England U21 manager. You do realise he was U21 manager since 2021!!! Heaven forbid! What cup finals did Bobby Robson, Graham Taylor, Terry Venables, and John Ward get us to? Are you seriously claiming that Carsley's achievements are in any way comparable to Robson's or Taylor's? How about Capello? Even Eriksson was a top, top manager. You are deflecting and not answering the question. What cup finals did they get us to? What about Capello and Erickson, you said you don't/didn't want a foreign manager.....
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Post by rideintothesun on Sept 9, 2024 18:55:27 GMT
Are you seriously claiming that Carsley's achievements are in any way comparable to Robson's or Taylor's? How about Capello? Even Eriksson was a top, top manager. You are deflecting and not answering the question. What cup finals did they get us to? What about Capello and Erickson, you said you don't/didn't want a foreign manager..... You're not comparing like for like. The quality of international football has visibly deteriorated in the last 30 years. Compare the 1990 and 1996 squads against the last team. Taking into account changes in the game (e.g., greater emphasis on sports science and improved training methods etc), I genuinely think 2-3 players from the current team would get into either side. Southgate did a reasonable job but had a huge amount of luck with the draw in 2020 and 2024. Whenever he came up against a top quality side, the team lost. His record against the top teams in all competitions was abysmal. I'm a traditionalist, and so I think managers should be appointed on the basis of their achievements, not because they are in the right place at the right time and because they fit a mould. Taylor and Robson both earned the position by proving themselves as excellent managers. Carsley hasn't, and shouldn't be considered. I didn't want a foreign manager and I don't want one. I was simply pointing out the huge gulf in quality and experience between Carsley and the likes of Capello and Eriksson.
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Post by rideintothesun on Sept 9, 2024 19:06:25 GMT
This surprised me because Taylor was quite old school. Very, very good manger who was absolutely mauled by the British press. Compare his treatment to the media darling Venables and reflect on how far greasing up football journalists used to get you... Also liked Palmer when he was DCM at Sheff Wed and then CB at Leeds. Contrary to the caricature, actually a very effective player. Not a fan of Batty. Bit of a crab. Trent Alexander Arnold and Gary Neville didn't either. Apparently neither did a few others for other countries, such as Ozil for Germany as he was praying instead. Gary Neville doesn't surprise me, as he is a champagne socialist. Cut-throat capitalist when taking Qatari money or pursuing his property interests and a socialist when it suits him. Lineker, who has predictably piped up on this issue, is similarly hypocritical in being utterly self-serving when he needs to be. Hate to sound cynical, but was Alexander Arnold BLM posturing for Twitter or his Instagram page? We live in an age in which it is more important to be seen to care than to actually care. This is why these people gravitate towards 'trendy' causes like Palestine or LGBTQ and have little to say about actual political issues that affect the majority of people in this country. Incidentally, I quite liked Marcus Rashford's campaign - I thought he showed guts and commitment in bringing an important issue to public attention. This says it all about Ozil. The first to claim sanctified victimhood status and minority privileges and the first to complain when he isn't fully accepted as German. Sound familiar? He is unfortunately by no means alone in holding this mindset, and this is one of the main reasons for the rise of the so-called 'far Right' in Germany and across Europe more generally.
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shakes
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 138
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Post by shakes on Sept 9, 2024 19:19:18 GMT
If you don’t believe in either religion or the monarchy then the anthem doesn’t really resonate. In fact Christian monarchists must be quite the minority in today’s Britain. Carsley should be applauded for his stance. Even people who aren't religious feel some degree of attachment to values and institutions that have been both directly and indirectly influenced by religion. Richard Dawkins, of all people, describes himself as 'culturally Christian'. I don't even particularly like the anthem but it is part of who we are as a nation, for better or worse. If you can think of something better, then put it forward. By the way, around three-quarters of the population support the retention of the monarchy in some form. Carsley hasn't even taken a stance, as you can tell from his laboured and drawn-out justification. National identity should be dynamic reflecting society values of modern Britain and not bound to outdated and oppressive symbols such as religion and the monarchy. We should accept free speech or free action so forcing Carsley to sing an irrelevant anthem is denying him his human rights. The British way of life is a silly statement - it represents a generalised monolithic unchanging way of life. Britain is culturally diverse, changing at a pace, so one statement applying to all just romanticises the person’s own views of what Britain means to them disregarding the experiences of many others.
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Post by rideintothesun on Sept 9, 2024 19:37:34 GMT
Even people who aren't religious feel some degree of attachment to values and institutions that have been both directly and indirectly influenced by religion. Richard Dawkins, of all people, describes himself as 'culturally Christian'. I don't even particularly like the anthem but it is part of who we are as a nation, for better or worse. If you can think of something better, then put it forward. By the way, around three-quarters of the population support the retention of the monarchy in some form. Carsley hasn't even taken a stance, as you can tell from his laboured and drawn-out justification. National identity should be dynamic reflecting society values of modern Britain and not bound to outdated and oppressive symbols such as religion and the monarchy. We should accept free speech or free action so forcing Carsley to sing an irrelevant anthem is denying him his human rights. The British way of life is a silly statement - it represents a generalised monolithic unchanging way of life. Britain is culturally diverse, changing at a pace, so one statement applying to all just romanticises the person’s own view of what Britain means to them disregarding the experiences of baby others. The problem with freedom of speech in this country is that it is claimed by people who use it for their own purposes but do not actually believe in it, and indeed actively seek to prevent it when they can. The issue with the monarchy has always been what is the alternative, and are there more important issues that directly impact more people? I would rather have the Queen as head of state than Cherie Blair or Samantha Cameron, and I suspect that I am not alone in holding this position. And constitutional issues are of little or no interest to the vast majority of the electorate. Former PM Jim Callaghan, when once confronted by a proposal for constitutional reform, responded with 'it works, doesn't it?' Most people still share his utter disinterest in constitutional matters. The concept of 'national identity' is an illusion, just like the 'national state', and indeed like 'constitutional democracy' or even a 'republic'. These are illusions that we persist with because they have some practical utility or significance. Likewise, the monarchy. In this country, we had a shared identity, history and culture. Some of it good, some of it bad. We are as entitled to celebrate and assert this collective inheritance as any other group. In my experience, the main people with hang ups in this regard are self-hating white liberals who presume that they have an innate right to speak on behalf of minority communities and/or channel the incoherent, spiteful and often hateful views of so-called 'community leaders'.
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bloogas
Joined: July 2016
Posts: 1,106
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Post by bloogas on Sept 9, 2024 19:51:24 GMT
Even people who aren't religious feel some degree of attachment to values and institutions that have been both directly and indirectly influenced by religion. Richard Dawkins, of all people, describes himself as 'culturally Christian'. I don't even particularly like the anthem but it is part of who we are as a nation, for better or worse. If you can think of something better, then put it forward. By the way, around three-quarters of the population support the retention of the monarchy in some form. Carsley hasn't even taken a stance, as you can tell from his laboured and drawn-out justification. National identity should be dynamic reflecting society values of modern Britain and not bound to outdated and oppressive symbols such as religion and the monarchy. We should accept free speech or free action so forcing Carsley to sing an irrelevant anthem is denying him his human rights. The British way of life is a silly statement - it represents a generalised monolithic unchanging way of life. Britain is culturally diverse, changing at a pace, so one statement applying to all just romanticises the person’s own view of what Britain means to them disregarding the experiences of baby others. Let's take it further. Like John Lennon said in "Imagine". No countries! No anthems. In which case no football internationals. Oh, and no religion. Best of luck with that.
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bluetornados
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 14,758
Member is Online
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Post by bluetornados on Sept 9, 2024 19:56:06 GMT
YouTube. "Harry and Paul - National Anthem Sketch". My favourite football national anthem,if anyone cares to put it up please.đź‘Ť
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Post by baselswh on Sept 9, 2024 20:04:03 GMT
YouTube. "Harry and Paul - National Anthem Sketch". My favourite football national anthem,if anyone cares to put it up please.đź‘Ť Thank you BT.
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Post by baldrick on Sept 9, 2024 20:19:38 GMT
National identity should be dynamic reflecting society values of modern Britain and not bound to outdated and oppressive symbols such as religion and the monarchy. We should accept free speech or free action so forcing Carsley to sing an irrelevant anthem is denying him his human rights. The British way of life is a silly statement - it represents a generalised monolithic unchanging way of life. Britain is culturally diverse, changing at a pace, so one statement applying to all just romanticises the person’s own view of what Britain means to them disregarding the experiences of baby others. The problem with freedom of speech in this country is that it is claimed by people who use it for their own purposes but do not actually believe in it, and indeed actively seek to prevent it when they can. The issue with the monarchy has always been what is the alternative, and are there more important issues that directly impact more people? I would rather have the Queen as head of state than Cherie Blair or Samantha Cameron, and I suspect that I am not alone in holding this position. And constitutional issues are of little or no interest to the vast majority of the electorate. Former PM Jim Callaghan, when once confronted by a proposal for constitutional reform, responded with 'it works, doesn't it?' Most people still share his utter disinterest in constitutional matters. The concept of 'national identity' is an illusion, just like the 'national state', and indeed like 'constitutional democracy' or even a 'republic'. These are illusions that we persist with because they have some practical utility or significance. Likewise, the monarchy. In this country, we had a shared identity, history and culture. Some of it good, some of it bad. We are as entitled to celebrate and assert this collective inheritance as any other group. In my experience, the main people with hang ups in this regard are self-hating white liberals who presume that they have an innate right to speak on behalf of minority communities and/or channel the incoherent, spiteful and often hateful views of so-called 'community leaders'. I think you are going down a boy of a rabbit hole here (fwiw I've no interest in changing the Constitutional arrangements) but Carsley wasn't making a political statement as far as I can tell, nor was he courting publicity (it was a question posed by a journalist on the side), he simply doesn't sing. GSTQ/K is the UK national anthem with the other Home nations choosing their own. England doesn't technically have one and I'd be more interested in what it could be, be that Jerusalem, I vow to thee my country, Land of Hope and Glory or whatever.
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Post by nickchippgas on Sept 9, 2024 20:52:31 GMT
Trent Alexander Arnold and Gary Neville didn't either. Apparently neither did a few others for other countries, such as Ozil for Germany as he was praying instead. Gary Neville doesn't surprise me, as he is a champagne socialist. Cut-throat capitalist when taking Qatari money or pursuing his property interests and a socialist when it suits him. Lineker, who has predictably piped up on this issue, is similarly hypocritical in being utterly self-serving when he needs to be. Hate to sound cynical, but was Alexander Arnold BLM posturing for Twitter or his Instagram page? We live in an age in which it is more important to be seen to care than to actually care. This is why these people gravitate towards 'trendy' causes like Palestine or LGBTQ and have little to say about actual political issues that affect the majority of people in this country. Incidentally, I quite liked Marcus Rashford's campaign - I thought he showed guts and commitment in bringing an important issue to public attention. This says it all about Ozil. The first to claim sanctified victimhood status and minority privileges and the first to complain when he isn't fully accepted as German. Sound familiar? He is unfortunately by no means alone in holding this mindset, and this is one of the main reasons for the rise of the so-called 'far Right' in Germany and across Europe more generally. No no no you need to stop posting on here your comments are far too sensible for this forum, I happen to agree 100% with every word 🔋
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Post by rideintothesun on Sept 9, 2024 21:02:39 GMT
The problem with freedom of speech in this country is that it is claimed by people who use it for their own purposes but do not actually believe in it, and indeed actively seek to prevent it when they can. The issue with the monarchy has always been what is the alternative, and are there more important issues that directly impact more people? I would rather have the Queen as head of state than Cherie Blair or Samantha Cameron, and I suspect that I am not alone in holding this position. And constitutional issues are of little or no interest to the vast majority of the electorate. Former PM Jim Callaghan, when once confronted by a proposal for constitutional reform, responded with 'it works, doesn't it?' Most people still share his utter disinterest in constitutional matters. The concept of 'national identity' is an illusion, just like the 'national state', and indeed like 'constitutional democracy' or even a 'republic'. These are illusions that we persist with because they have some practical utility or significance. Likewise, the monarchy. In this country, we had a shared identity, history and culture. Some of it good, some of it bad. We are as entitled to celebrate and assert this collective inheritance as any other group. In my experience, the main people with hang ups in this regard are self-hating white liberals who presume that they have an innate right to speak on behalf of minority communities and/or channel the incoherent, spiteful and often hateful views of so-called 'community leaders'. I think you are going down a boy of a rabbit hole here (fwiw I've no interest in changing the Constitutional arrangements) but Carsley wasn't making a political statement as far as I can tell, nor was he courting publicity (it was a question posed by a journalist on the side), he simply doesn't sing. GSTQ/K is the UK national anthem with the other Home nations choosing their own. England doesn't technically have one and I'd be more interested in what it could be, be that Jerusalem, I vow to thee my country, Land of Hope and Glory or whatever. I was actually addressing points raised by other posters. GSTQ is not technically the anthem but the proof is in the pudding (i.e, in the widespread singing), and this will remain the case until another one (and btw, Jerusalem is even more of a dirge) is instead sung by our supporters. The vast majority of people want this to remain the case, which is presumably related to the fact that the vast majority of people see no reason to create an alternative constitutional arrangement. Remember the millennium dome, that pointless dome of earth in central London and/or the hideous Paris opening olympics ceremony? This is what happens when you try to do away with national culture, history and tradition without anything to replace it. Lee was born in Birmingham and decided that he identified more strongly with Ireland. Good for you - now go and manage them instead, and let's see if Eddie can sing a better tune, or preferably one at all...
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shakes
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 138
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Post by shakes on Sept 9, 2024 21:15:36 GMT
I think you are going down a boy of a rabbit hole here (fwiw I've no interest in changing the Constitutional arrangements) but Carsley wasn't making a political statement as far as I can tell, nor was he courting publicity (it was a question posed by a journalist on the side), he simply doesn't sing. GSTQ/K is the UK national anthem with the other Home nations choosing their own. England doesn't technically have one and I'd be more interested in what it could be, be that Jerusalem, I vow to thee my country, Land of Hope and Glory or whatever. I was actually addressing points raised by other posters. GSTQ is not technically the anthem but the proof is in the pudding (i.e, in the widespread singing), and this will remain the case until another one (and btw, Jerusalem is even more of a dirge) is instead sung by our supporters. The vast majority of people want this to remain the case, which is presumably related to the fact that the vast majority of people see no reason to create an alternative constitutional arrangement. Remember the millennium dome, that pointless dome of earth in central London and/or the hideous Paris opening olympics ceremony? This is what happens when you try to do away with national culture, history and tradition without anything to replace it. Lee was born in Birmingham and decided that he identified more strongly with Ireland. Great - so go and manage them instead. Let's now see if Eddie can sing a better tune, or preferably one at all...  I disagree with you entirely - but different strokes and all that. Culture evolves but so many people fear change. That’s why they refer to identity of the past and seeking to preserve it las if it was some sort of idyll.
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