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Post by swissgas on Feb 22, 2024 1:40:27 GMT
I didn’t actually mention Luton ITB but understand what you are saying. The Quarters is barely fit for purpose for the first team so I can’t see how it can be used for a player development programme without major improvements to accommodate all the extra people. If you were to get in a DOF and more staff and extra players there would be no room for them. And would these people want to come to Rovers anyway when the see the quality of the current gym and medical facilities ? Some players and staff do come for the money but how many good ones are we missing out on because they have a choice of money AND first rate facilities ? It’s tempting to ask how this conversion has come about so that you’re now agreeing with me on most things even things which Rovers did 2020 - 2023 and which have now proven to be huge mistakes. But I think the immediate point is that we can stop a major mistake happening right now if fans come together with one voice. Over on Gaschat I see fans are waking up to the fact that if the team isn’t doing well the South Stand will not be anything like full and many of the Gasheads there are people moving from other parts of the ground. Anyone with Rovers best interests at heart can see that spending money on extra capacity in the East Stand would be a bad decision especially if that money is borrowed at a high interest rate. A new East stand which included bars, restaurants, retail outlets, esports zones and areas for social activities and meetings would be beneficial but we know we wouldn’t be getting that it would just be extra seats like the South Stand and that increased capacity is not needed. So do you agree it would be a good idea for Gasheads to try to persuade the Al- Saeeds to drop the East Stand idea and concentrate on more important issues ? I've been completely against a Mem development from the start unless it can pay for itself somehow. You may recall I've posted here many times that if we were to develop the Mem properly into modern stadia it would cost around £50-60m if we use Brentford's stadium as the rule of thumb. That said. We need to do something with that part of the ground as it's just not fit for purpose anymore and we need to improve our match day experience for the younger generation and give the Mem some kind of appeal. I also think that if MT is brilliant young manager and if next year he assembles a squad capable of promotion then no doubt we will pack the Mem and need the extra capacity as we have done in L2 in a promotion season. I think we certainly need to plan a new stand thoroughly, so why not do that now rather than knee jerk into another build straight away, for once we could actually take our time getting it right. Ed Ware seems to think he could get something to work with student accomdation again and he did run the numbers past me at the last home game but I cannot remember what they were so I'll have to recheck. Perhaps that could be an avenue. Can I ask, have you actually visited the quarters in the last 12 months? I've been to other training grounds of clubs in our league and it's comparable if not better than most. I don't know why you keep saying it's not fit for purpose when 5 years ago we didn't have a training ground, we rented a fox s**t infested pitch which we could only use for 3 hours a day and DC had a portacabin as an office. The average attendance in our League 2 promotion season was 7500 and our capacity now is about 12000 so we don’t need extra seats in the East Stand and no business case can be made for it. On the other hand if we made the replacement of the East Stand part of a medium term plan and could bring partners such as student accommodation providers or hotel operators on board that would make sense. Because by sharing the risk and introducing cash from outside sources we’d need to borrow less and at much better rates. The Bournemouth owner has said their new 18500 capacity stadium will include 16% hospitality and we need to listen to and learn from successful people like this. Creating a vibrant and intimidating fortress by taking on debt and massively increasing running costs is a poor option to choose when instead we could take our time and end up with a modern stylish grandstand which has a chance of being financially sustainable. I haven’t been to the Quarters but have seen so many pictures and studied so many plans I feel as though I know it like the back of my hand. We’ve invested 2.4 million in this and it’s costing 500k pa to run compared to less than 100k for the previous facility or other comparable venues. How has this investment and the five fold increase in running costs since 2020 affected our team’s performance ? Rented fox sh*t infested training ground2017/18. 13th League 1 2018/19. 15th League 1 2019/20. 14th League 1
The Quarters2020/21. 24th League 1 2021/22. 3rd League 2 2022/23. 17th League 1 It hasn’t been a success but let’s move on and do it better next time. |
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Post by russiangas on Feb 22, 2024 3:33:28 GMT
I'll reply without all the quotes ITB. The training ground isn't fit for the purpose of accomodating all the players, coaches and staff needed if we are going to prioritize developing our own talent because the facilities are neither big enough nor up to the required standard. The pitches are superb, yes, but everything else is simply not good enough. This was acknowledged by Rovers planning consultants when we applied to increase the size of the club house who said it was designed for an amateur rugby club and was not suitable for a professional football club. If further proof were needed we have it in this current open letter where the proposal for a new fully equipped building is described. For anyone in any doubt take a look at this picture of the present gymnasium and medical facility which is rag bag in the extreme. View AttachmentBut we've got to get away from our habit of jumping in with all guns blazing and then falling flat on our faces. To set up a player development programme we first need to consider what we are trying to achieve, how we are going to achieve it, what personnel will we need and what physical infrastructure is required. We can look at how other clubs do it and learn from that but we should also be willing to think out of the box and innovate if we can. A couple of years ago I proposed an idea which epping described as being like "moneyball" but it came from my experience with horses and it could work equally well with young footballers. You have your people monitoring outstanding young footballers who have been snapped up by bigger clubs and identify those which aren't making the progress expected. Through research and contacts (market intelligence) you find out why they are not progressing and work out whether you can overcome these problems be they physical, psychological or something else. If you believe you can, and the player continues to falter so is likely to be released, you make an approach before his contract is up and steal a march on the competition by persuading the player and his agent that Rovers is the right club to kickstart his career. It goes much deeper than this of course and it means monitoring hundreds of players but if done systematically I think it's worth consideration. So the gym is in an aircraft hangar/garage and the medical facility a portacabin? |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 22, 2024 9:31:00 GMT
I've been completely against a Mem development from the start unless it can pay for itself somehow. You may recall I've posted here many times that if we were to develop the Mem properly into modern stadia it would cost around £50-60m if we use Brentford's stadium as the rule of thumb. That said. We need to do something with that part of the ground as it's just not fit for purpose anymore and we need to improve our match day experience for the younger generation and give the Mem some kind of appeal. I also think that if MT is brilliant young manager and if next year he assembles a squad capable of promotion then no doubt we will pack the Mem and need the extra capacity as we have done in L2 in a promotion season. I think we certainly need to plan a new stand thoroughly, so why not do that now rather than knee jerk into another build straight away, for once we could actually take our time getting it right. Ed Ware seems to think he could get something to work with student accomdation again and he did run the numbers past me at the last home game but I cannot remember what they were so I'll have to recheck. Perhaps that could be an avenue. Can I ask, have you actually visited the quarters in the last 12 months? I've been to other training grounds of clubs in our league and it's comparable if not better than most. I don't know why you keep saying it's not fit for purpose when 5 years ago we didn't have a training ground, we rented a fox s**t infested pitch which we could only use for 3 hours a day and DC had a portacabin as an office. The average attendance in our League 2 promotion season was 7500 and our capacity now is about 12000 so we don’t need extra seats in the East Stand and no business case can be made for it. On the other hand if we made the replacement of the East Stand part of a medium term plan and could bring partners such as student accommodation providers or hotel operators on board that would make sense. Because by sharing the risk and introducing cash from outside sources we’d need to borrow less and at much better rates. The Bournemouth owner has said their new 18500 capacity stadium will include 16% hospitality and we need to listen to and learn from successful people like this. Creating a vibrant and intimidating fortress by taking on debt and massively increasing running costs is a poor option to choose when instead we could take our time and end up with a modern stylish grandstand which has a chance of being financially sustainable. I haven’t been to the Quarters but have seen so many pictures and studied so many plans I feel as though I know it like the back of my hand. We’ve invested 2.4 million in this and it’s costing 500k pa to run compared to less than 100k for the previous facility or other comparable venues. How has this investment and the five fold increase in running costs since 2020 affected our team’s performance ? Rented fox sh*t infested training ground2017/18. 13th League 1 2018/19. 15th League 1 2019/20. 14th League 1
The Quarters2020/21. 24th League 1 2021/22. 3rd League 2 2022/23. 17th League 1 It hasn’t been a success but let’s move on and do it better next time. The average attendance has since increased to around 8000 since our return to L1 and towards the end of the L2 campaign, certainly the last 5 games, it was a sell out and we have had many sell out games this year well where more more tickets could have been sold for both home and away fans if we had the capacity. Bristol City had an average attendance in L1 of around 11k which increased to 13k when they got promoted to the champ and they have increased it year on year to around 18k now with 15k ST holders which has mainly down to improved facilities and greater matchday offerings. So there is an argument for increasing the capacity by improving the offering, it will tempt some people to sit in a new dry stand rather than stand in the rain. The problem is we have done nothing since we moved to the Mem chasing a new stadium or other developments. The stadium wasn't fit for purpose when we moved into it and because we have done nothing we're even further behind now so something has to be done. As you say, if a new east stand can be developed which will generate an additional revenue stream to offset the build costs then it should happen and we should be looking into it now. As regards the quarters, all the pictures in world is no substitute until you have walked through the doors. It really is a good little facility. I've spoken to ant least 15 players over the past 3 years and all say they are very happy with what we have from a facility point of view. When we moved to the quarters the rot had very much set in before we moved there, it wasn't operational for 3/4 months of the relegation season which Garner and Tisdale managed to fudge. Promotion back the following year and stability in L1 is essential and I think this year MT will sort the apparent mess that JB left behind with his team of crocks and we will certainly finish midtable. A decent training facility will attract better players if they feel we're investing in the team as much as they will in our shirt. The previous facility at Axa couldn't be re-rented anyway and the Combe Dingle ground wasn't fit for purpose long term, its facilities were old, equipment outdated and we didn't have exclusive use of it which was the other problem at the foxhole. I played at both over the years. Yes it might have been £100k per year, but it was nowhere near good enough. |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 22, 2024 9:33:23 GMT
I'll reply without all the quotes ITB. The training ground isn't fit for the purpose of accomodating all the players, coaches and staff needed if we are going to prioritize developing our own talent because the facilities are neither big enough nor up to the required standard. The pitches are superb, yes, but everything else is simply not good enough. This was acknowledged by Rovers planning consultants when we applied to increase the size of the club house who said it was designed for an amateur rugby club and was not suitable for a professional football club. If further proof were needed we have it in this current open letter where the proposal for a new fully equipped building is described. For anyone in any doubt take a look at this picture of the present gymnasium and medical facility which is rag bag in the extreme. View AttachmentBut we've got to get away from our habit of jumping in with all guns blazing and then falling flat on our faces. To set up a player development programme we first need to consider what we are trying to achieve, how we are going to achieve it, what personnel will we need and what physical infrastructure is required. We can look at how other clubs do it and learn from that but we should also be willing to think out of the box and innovate if we can. A couple of years ago I proposed an idea which epping described as being like "moneyball" but it came from my experience with horses and it could work equally well with young footballers. You have your people monitoring outstanding young footballers who have been snapped up by bigger clubs and identify those which aren't making the progress expected. Through research and contacts (market intelligence) you find out why they are not progressing and work out whether you can overcome these problems be they physical, psychological or something else. If you believe you can, and the player continues to falter so is likely to be released, you make an approach before his contract is up and steal a march on the competition by persuading the player and his agent that Rovers is the right club to kickstart his career. It goes much deeper than this of course and it means monitoring hundreds of players but if done systematically I think it's worth consideration. So the gym is in an aircraft hangar/garage and the medical facility a portacabin? No, everything is under one roof gym, physio rooms and the cryotherapy room. It's a fairly big thing, breezeblock to a certain height with insulated panelling and roof but it is separate to the main club house. |
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Post by a more piratey game on Feb 22, 2024 10:16:57 GMT
I have read on here that we had to pay over the odds for players in the past due to*;
The perceived cost of living in Bristol (which amazes me, but this has been said a lot, including by people with direct experience of recruiting players)
Lack of real evidence of the club's ambition ie tatty stadium and tatty training facilities
The new stand(s) and the Quarters seem to me to address these
* I could add 'Bristol being the Bermuda Triangle of footballing success', as David Goldthingy wittily put it, but I'm not sure that's particularly salient for L1 players
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Post by swissgas on Feb 22, 2024 15:50:43 GMT
The average attendance in our League 2 promotion season was 7500 and our capacity now is about 12000 so we don’t need extra seats in the East Stand and no business case can be made for it. On the other hand if we made the replacement of the East Stand part of a medium term plan and could bring partners such as student accommodation providers or hotel operators on board that would make sense. Because by sharing the risk and introducing cash from outside sources we’d need to borrow less and at much better rates. The Bournemouth owner has said their new 18500 capacity stadium will include 16% hospitality and we need to listen to and learn from successful people like this. Creating a vibrant and intimidating fortress by taking on debt and massively increasing running costs is a poor option to choose when instead we could take our time and end up with a modern stylish grandstand which has a chance of being financially sustainable. I haven’t been to the Quarters but have seen so many pictures and studied so many plans I feel as though I know it like the back of my hand. We’ve invested 2.4 million in this and it’s costing 500k pa to run compared to less than 100k for the previous facility or other comparable venues. How has this investment and the five fold increase in running costs since 2020 affected our team’s performance ? Rented fox sh*t infested training ground2017/18. 13th League 1 2018/19. 15th League 1 2019/20. 14th League 1
The Quarters2020/21. 24th League 1 2021/22. 3rd League 2 2022/23. 17th League 1 It hasn’t been a success but let’s move on and do it better next time. The average attendance has since increased to around 8000 since our return to L1 and towards the end of the L2 campaign, certainly the last 5 games, it was a sell out and we have had many sell out games this year well where more more tickets could have been sold for both home and away fans if we had the capacity. Bristol City had an average attendance in L1 of around 11k which increased to 13k when they got promoted to the champ and they have increased it year on year to around 18k now with 15k ST holders which has mainly down to improved facilities and greater matchday offerings. So there is an argument for increasing the capacity by improving the offering, it will tempt some people to sit in a new dry stand rather than stand in the rain. The problem is we have done nothing since we moved to the Mem chasing a new stadium or other developments. The stadium wasn't fit for purpose when we moved into it and because we have done nothing we're even further behind now so something has to be done. As you say, if a new east stand can be developed which will generate an additional revenue stream to offset the build costs then it should happen and we should be looking into it now. As regards the quarters, all the pictures in world is no substitute until you have walked through the doors. It really is a good little facility. I've spoken to ant least 15 players over the past 3 years and all say they are very happy with what we have from a facility point of view. When we moved to the quarters the rot had very much set in before we moved there, it wasn't operational for 3/4 months of the relegation season which Garner and Tisdale managed to fudge. Promotion back the following year and stability in L1 is essential and I think this year MT will sort the apparent mess that JB left behind with his team of crocks and we will certainly finish midtable. A decent training facility will attract better players if they feel we're investing in the team as much as they will in our shirt. The previous facility at Axa couldn't be re-rented anyway and the Combe Dingle ground wasn't fit for purpose long term, its facilities were old, equipment outdated and we didn't have exclusive use of it which was the other problem at the foxhole. I played at both over the years. Yes it might have been £100k per year, but it was nowhere near good enough. I can understand you trying to create a legacy for Wael but results since 2020 show the team went backwards once it started training at the Quarters. And the extra 400k pa running costs burden contributed to the huge overspend which forced him to cede control to the Al- Saeeds. It was folly to go ahead with the project in the way we did and now, if the residential development materializes, the 2.4 million capital investment will have to be be written off when the two pitches are ripped up and the clubhouse demolished. If you look at the site plan it appears the only suitable terrain for two replacement pitches and the additional ones mentioned in the open letter would include the area where the clubhouse and car park are situated. In 2019/20 the danger signals were flashing over Rovers complacency about the training ground issue and the reckless decision to go ahead at Almondsbury without any forethought or consideration of financial implications. The same signals are now flashing over the East Stand. |
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Post by droitwichgas on Feb 22, 2024 16:43:42 GMT
The average attendance has since increased to around 8000 since our return to L1 and towards the end of the L2 campaign, certainly the last 5 games, it was a sell out and we have had many sell out games this year well where more more tickets could have been sold for both home and away fans if we had the capacity. Bristol City had an average attendance in L1 of around 11k which increased to 13k when they got promoted to the champ and they have increased it year on year to around 18k now with 15k ST holders which has mainly down to improved facilities and greater matchday offerings. So there is an argument for increasing the capacity by improving the offering, it will tempt some people to sit in a new dry stand rather than stand in the rain. The problem is we have done nothing since we moved to the Mem chasing a new stadium or other developments. The stadium wasn't fit for purpose when we moved into it and because we have done nothing we're even further behind now so something has to be done. As you say, if a new east stand can be developed which will generate an additional revenue stream to offset the build costs then it should happen and we should be looking into it now. As regards the quarters, all the pictures in world is no substitute until you have walked through the doors. It really is a good little facility. I've spoken to ant least 15 players over the past 3 years and all say they are very happy with what we have from a facility point of view. When we moved to the quarters the rot had very much set in before we moved there, it wasn't operational for 3/4 months of the relegation season which Garner and Tisdale managed to fudge. Promotion back the following year and stability in L1 is essential and I think this year MT will sort the apparent mess that JB left behind with his team of crocks and we will certainly finish midtable. A decent training facility will attract better players if they feel we're investing in the team as much as they will in our shirt. The previous facility at Axa couldn't be re-rented anyway and the Combe Dingle ground wasn't fit for purpose long term, its facilities were old, equipment outdated and we didn't have exclusive use of it which was the other problem at the foxhole. I played at both over the years. Yes it might have been £100k per year, but it was nowhere near good enough. I can understand you trying to create a legacy for Wael but results since 2020 show the team went backwards once it started training at the Quarters. And the extra 400k pa running costs burden contributed to the huge overspend which forced him to cede control to the Al- Saeeds. It was folly to go ahead with the project in the way we did and now, if the residential development materializes, the 2.4 million capital investment will have to be be written off when the two pitches are ripped up and the clubhouse demolished. If you look at the site plan it appears the only suitable terrain for two replacement pitches and the additional ones mentioned in the open letter would include the area where the clubhouse and car park are situated. In 2019/20 the danger signals were flashing over Rovers complacency about the training ground issue and the reckless decision to go ahead at Almondsbury without any forethought or consideration of financial implications. The same signals are now flashing over the East Stand. When the club commenced work on The Quarters there were no signs we were ever likely to get pp for residential housing on the site, even now we don't really know 1) if S Glos will include it in their plans 2) whether they will accept the land shown on the map is the correct area to build housing 3) how long it will take before work commences on the site |
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Post by swissgas on Feb 22, 2024 17:14:44 GMT
I can understand you trying to create a legacy for Wael but results since 2020 show the team went backwards once it started training at the Quarters. And the extra 400k pa running costs burden contributed to the huge overspend which forced him to cede control to the Al- Saeeds. It was folly to go ahead with the project in the way we did and now, if the residential development materializes, the 2.4 million capital investment will have to be be written off when the two pitches are ripped up and the clubhouse demolished. If you look at the site plan it appears the only suitable terrain for two replacement pitches and the additional ones mentioned in the open letter would include the area where the clubhouse and car park are situated. In 2019/20 the danger signals were flashing over Rovers complacency about the training ground issue and the reckless decision to go ahead at Almondsbury without any forethought or consideration of financial implications. The same signals are now flashing over the East Stand. When the club commenced work on The Quarters there were no signs we were ever likely to get pp for residential housing on the site, even now we don't really know 1) if S Glos will include it in their plans 2) whether they will accept the land shown on the map is the correct area to build housing 3) how long it will take before work commences on the site I agree with you. Which is why I think it was unwise to say a residential element element was necessary to make the development viable yet still maintain it is a three year vision. It didn't make much sense either to go to the residents last year and ask them "what do you want" because that's immediately inviting them to say either they don't want anything at all or suggesting things which are not going to be beneficial to Rovers and so potentially creating unnecessary conflict. Far better IMO to go to them at the right time with the outline proposals we have in mind and ask how they feel about it and whether there are any changes they would propose. But the biggest question of all is whether selling a portion of the site for housing is the best option for Rovers anyway. Has anybody from or on behalf of the club looked at developing the site ourselves along the lines of the Integrated Retirement Community / Sports Science Park which I've advocated before. That could be a far better long term option providing a self funding training ground with ongoing additional revenue streams. Selling off a portion of the site will gain a few millions short term but with Rovers track record there is a grave danger it will quickly disappear down the black hole. |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 22, 2024 18:43:43 GMT
The average attendance has since increased to around 8000 since our return to L1 and towards the end of the L2 campaign, certainly the last 5 games, it was a sell out and we have had many sell out games this year well where more more tickets could have been sold for both home and away fans if we had the capacity. Bristol City had an average attendance in L1 of around 11k which increased to 13k when they got promoted to the champ and they have increased it year on year to around 18k now with 15k ST holders which has mainly down to improved facilities and greater matchday offerings. So there is an argument for increasing the capacity by improving the offering, it will tempt some people to sit in a new dry stand rather than stand in the rain. The problem is we have done nothing since we moved to the Mem chasing a new stadium or other developments. The stadium wasn't fit for purpose when we moved into it and because we have done nothing we're even further behind now so something has to be done. As you say, if a new east stand can be developed which will generate an additional revenue stream to offset the build costs then it should happen and we should be looking into it now. As regards the quarters, all the pictures in world is no substitute until you have walked through the doors. It really is a good little facility. I've spoken to ant least 15 players over the past 3 years and all say they are very happy with what we have from a facility point of view. When we moved to the quarters the rot had very much set in before we moved there, it wasn't operational for 3/4 months of the relegation season which Garner and Tisdale managed to fudge. Promotion back the following year and stability in L1 is essential and I think this year MT will sort the apparent mess that JB left behind with his team of crocks and we will certainly finish midtable. A decent training facility will attract better players if they feel we're investing in the team as much as they will in our shirt. The previous facility at Axa couldn't be re-rented anyway and the Combe Dingle ground wasn't fit for purpose long term, its facilities were old, equipment outdated and we didn't have exclusive use of it which was the other problem at the foxhole. I played at both over the years. Yes it might have been £100k per year, but it was nowhere near good enough. I can understand you trying to create a legacy for Wael but results since 2020 show the team went backwards once it started training at the Quarters. And the extra 400k pa running costs burden contributed to the huge overspend which forced him to cede control to the Al- Saeeds. It was folly to go ahead with the project in the way we did and now, if the residential development materializes, the 2.4 million capital investment will have to be be written off when the two pitches are ripped up and the clubhouse demolished. If you look at the site plan it appears the only suitable terrain for two replacement pitches and the additional ones mentioned in the open letter would include the area where the clubhouse and car park are situated. In 2019/20 the danger signals were flashing over Rovers complacency about the training ground issue and the reckless decision to go ahead at Almondsbury without any forethought or consideration of financial implications. The same signals are now flashing over the East Stand. I am not interested in Wael's legacy, I am simply interstested in facts. The facts are, at the start of the 20/21 season, we were'nt at the quarters, we were at Coombe Dingle having had to move out of the Foxhole. We didnt move into the Quarters properly until December. The reason we got relegated was because (a) Garner and Widdrington signed a conference team (b) Starnes and Widdrington had the opportunity to appoint a proper manager, but they chose Paul Tisdale, (c) TW and PT made a complete cats arse of the January window chasing Jason Stockley, that we never signed 2 strikers we were so desperate for. Starnes tried to call in a favour from Nathan Jones who let us have Danny Hylton, but he didnt fancy a relegation fight. All the while we had TW telling everyone that the squad we had was good enough to stay up, which it wasnt. It was only good enough to amass 38 points and only 3 players in that whole squad played L1 level the following year. Not even Pep would have gotten a tune out of them. The Quarters has literally nothing to do with being relegated. I think you said at the time there was another facility we could have rented at £200k per annum as a training facility? No doubt the rates would have risen on that on a sliding rental contract too but isnt renting a facility you cant develop and invest in just a wasted of money too? Regarding the Green Belt and Lanscaping Review dated April 22, it does appear they have earmarked the pitches as the development zone. I would assume that the developer that would then purchase that land would have to compensate us by paying for the cost of 2 new pitches? The fact that we have heard nothing on (a) the sale of land (b) any developer being interested says currently it is no more than a possible exercise? You may know more on that with your contacts than me. However we both agree that the East stand should only be developed if it can be done strategically with shared build and an ROI for the club in addition to matchday ticketing and hospitality. |
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Post by swissgas on Feb 22, 2024 19:53:54 GMT
I can understand you trying to create a legacy for Wael but results since 2020 show the team went backwards once it started training at the Quarters. And the extra 400k pa running costs burden contributed to the huge overspend which forced him to cede control to the Al- Saeeds. It was folly to go ahead with the project in the way we did and now, if the residential development materializes, the 2.4 million capital investment will have to be be written off when the two pitches are ripped up and the clubhouse demolished. If you look at the site plan it appears the only suitable terrain for two replacement pitches and the additional ones mentioned in the open letter would include the area where the clubhouse and car park are situated. In 2019/20 the danger signals were flashing over Rovers complacency about the training ground issue and the reckless decision to go ahead at Almondsbury without any forethought or consideration of financial implications. The same signals are now flashing over the East Stand. I am not interested in Wael's legacy, I am simply interstested in facts. The facts are, at the start of the 20/21 season, we were'nt at the quarters, we were at Coombe Dingle having had to move out of the Foxhole. We didnt move into the Quarters properly until December. The reason we got relegated was because (a) Garner and Widdrington signed a conference team (b) Starnes and Widdrington had the opportunity to appoint a proper manager, but they chose Paul Tisdale, (c) TW and PT made a complete cats arse of the January window chasing Jason Stockley, that we never signed 2 strikers we were so desperate for. Starnes tried to call in a favour from Nathan Jones who let us have Danny Hylton, but he didnt fancy a relegation fight. All the while we had TW telling everyone that the squad we had was good enough to stay up, which it wasnt. It was only good enough to amass 38 points and only 3 players in that whole squad played L1 level the following year. Not even Pep would have gotten a tune out of them. The Quarters has literally nothing to do with being relegated. I think you said at the time there was another facility we could have rented at £200k per annum as a training facility? No doubt the rates would have risen on that on a sliding rental contract too but isnt renting a facility you cant develop and invest in just a wasted of money too? Regarding the Green Belt and Lanscaping Review dated April 22, it does appear they have earmarked the pitches as the development zone. I would assume that the developer that would then purchase that land would have to compensate us by paying for the cost of 2 new pitches? The fact that we have heard nothing on (a) the sale of land (b) any developer being interested says currently it is no more than a possible exercise? You may know more on that with your contacts than me. However we both agree that the East stand should only be developed if it can be done strategically with shared build and an ROI for the club in addition to matchday ticketing and hospitality. We moved from Combe Dingle on October 26th but the clubhouse wasn’t ready so the players changed at the nearby Gloucestershire FA headquarters. I don’t think the move to the new training ground directly caused relegation but the disruption didn’t help. Before the move our record was Played 7, W 3, D 2, L 2. The date the Cribbs training ground lease ended was known years in advance so arrangements should have been made in good time for a smooth transition to a new leased facility. The excuse that nowhere else could be found so there was no choice but to hastily develop the Quarters isn’t credible. If a training ground had been leased while options for the Almondsbury land were explored we would have saved 400k pa for the past three years and the 2.4 million which has been spent on pitches and buildings would be available to go towards the cost of the new facilities proposed in the open letter. Thats all in the past so we can’t do anything about it now but we can try to stop a similar mistake being made with the East Stand. |
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Post by russiangas on Feb 22, 2024 21:15:13 GMT
I get the feeling any stadium redevelopment that is done is going to be done as cheaply as it can be, and like you say will probably just end up being extra capacity but not something that has revenue streams built into it, or much in the way of concourse fan zone etc. The South Stand is ok but it's still basically a temporary structure, it has the supporting pillars across the front. I imagine if real success did come the South Stand wouldn't be fit for purpose in the big league. I guess the problem is we have seen failed scheme after scheme, hollow promise after hollow promise so understandably gasheads feel we are really overdue a better stadium experience. It's us that pays our money week in week out, and everyone feels they should be getting more value for money. I don't go to away games but I'm guessing our tickets aren't any cheaper than other league one clubs, most of which have a much better matchday offering than. But taking on loads of debt isn't the way to improve it. If we were genuinely pushing for the championship I think attendances would go up significantly, remember the conference season and opening up the away end for that 7-0 against Alfreton. But if the results aren't going that way I don't think they attendances will go up significantly just because the stadium is a bit better.
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Post by alftupper on Feb 23, 2024 7:34:40 GMT
Dennis Skinner and I are pleased to have you join us on these benches John but there is still plenty of room for more  I agree with all the points in your post and could add my own analysis of the open letter but I'm not sure it would do much good. In your final paragraph you say that each time an investor realises they are in over their heads they have to go out again to attract more investment from someone else who fancies a punt on an English football club. This is true and has been the case with Nick Higgs finding the Al Qadi's willing to take a punt and Wael eventually finding the Al-Saeeds but how long can this go on ? I was shocked when ITB posted that the high interest Nationwide Finance loan is for £5 million and was used to pay day to day expenses as well as for the South Stand. There has been very little comment on this and I suspect it horrified most Gasheads so they'd rather put it to the back of their minds. But it will have confirmed the fear of a growing number of fans that far from being in a "good place" the club was in a far worse position when the Al-Saeeds took over than it was in February 2016. Here are some figures to show this. February 2016 August 2023Annual trading losses £ 1.0 million £ 4.0 million Amount owed to "Wonga Type" loan company £ 2.7 million £ 5.0 million Amount owed through loan from shareholders £ 4.5 million £ 10.0 million * (* estimate. £7 million owed at 30.06.22) Amount of cash put into Rovers to gain control £ 7.2 million* (loan) £ 7.2 million * (*capital) You can see that despite the deterioration in our financial position the Al-Saeeds put the same amount into Rovers as Dwane Sports had done in 2016 to gain control. In both cases, I believe, there was no payment for shares and they were just handed over in return for the cash injection to keep the business afloat. But there is one glaring difference which Gasheads should be aware of. The first thing Dwane Sports did upon taking over was to pay off the loan from MSP Capital and pay off the loans and bonds owing to Nick Higgs and the other shareholders leaving Rovers with a £7.2 million debt to Dwane. But when the Al-Saeeds took over they appear to have put in cash as capital but left the loan to Nationwide Finance still outstanding and did not capitalise the loan from Dwane Sports. Therefore the two charges remain over the Mem and the other assets leaving Rovers with £ 15 million of secured debt outstanding. The Al-Saeeds plan now seems to be to take on even more debt and to persevere with excess spending as the way to achieve their stated aim of getting Rovers to the Championship within three years. If that is the plan and it fails, meaning they need to go out and attract someone else who fancies a punt on Rovers, I think all sensible investors will look at the debt and the business model and give our club a wide berth. So what is the attraction of buying a English football team to all these foreign investors do you think? Do they begin genuinely thinking that they can get the club into the championship or ultimately premier league in due course and then will make serious money? Is it just literally an expensive toy for men that already have everything else they need? If I was really wealthy and if I lived in a country with a much lower standard of football than here I'd still rather invest in a team in my own country, maybe try to use money to improve the standard of football there. I just don't really understand it. Like you say if things aren't managed better we could easily be in an even worse situation in a couple of years time if things don't pan out as per the "plan". Do many championship clubs make a profit even? I think you`ve answered your own question, in your third sentence. A lot of wealthy people obviously enjoy, ( what they perceive to be ) the cachet of owning a professional football club. |
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bondigas
Joined: December 2017
Posts: 407 
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Post by bondigas on Feb 23, 2024 8:08:26 GMT
Ah and the legacy our man will leave Rovers with will not be the Long and Winding Road but the man who appointed Joey Barton manager of Bristol Rovers engraved in the history of the club never to be forgotten. Now that is a real legacy.
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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 23, 2024 13:30:36 GMT
So what is the attraction of buying a English football team to all these foreign investors do you think? Do they begin genuinely thinking that they can get the club into the championship or ultimately premier league in due course and then will make serious money? Is it just literally an expensive toy for men that already have everything else they need? If I was really wealthy and if I lived in a country with a much lower standard of football than here I'd still rather invest in a team in my own country, maybe try to use money to improve the standard of football there. I just don't really understand it. Like you say if things aren't managed better we could easily be in an even worse situation in a couple of years time if things don't pan out as per the "plan". Do many championship clubs make a profit even? I think you`ve answered your own question, in your third sentence. A lot of wealthy people obviously enjoy, ( what they perceive to be ) the cachet of owning a professional football club. We all have hobbies that cost us money. I spent 15 years of my life sat in racing cars and if I totalled together what I have spent on racing it would make your eyes water. I'm a fairly handy driver but I'm never going to be F1 level or even make a career out of it, so why did I do it? Quite simply I loved the fun of it, the adreneline rush it gave me and the cameraderie of the people I met, even though sometimes your car breaks, your soaked in the paddock fixing a problem, or some other grief it gives you, or you get punted off and the missing corners of the car cost you a couple of grand to rebuild. My point is, what you can spend is all relative to your own circumstances and what may seem ridiculous to some isnt quite so daft to the person whos doing it. It seems ridiculous to us that someone is prepared to lose £30m on Rovers, but we dont know what Wael's net worth is and it may be relative. With the AS, is it a hobby, are they trying to take us somewhere, or are they a vehicle to try and make some money for themselves? As another example, 3 weeks ago I had a day trip to Switzerland to with a client of mine who wanted some assistance on a very bespoke watch from Patek Phillipe. This watch was 7 figures. The mind blows at the price tag despite the beauty of the jewelry in it, the intracacy of the mechanical movements and what it takes to produce a one off item. Yet this is one of a hobby for the person and when you consider his net worth, the price was relative to us going to Argos and buying a £200 Citizen. |
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Post by rowdenhill on Feb 23, 2024 13:36:29 GMT
£200 Citizen? Unimaginable.
Mine's a £7.99 Casio.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,361
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 23, 2024 15:11:20 GMT
I think you`ve answered your own question, in your third sentence. A lot of wealthy people obviously enjoy, ( what they perceive to be ) the cachet of owning a professional football club. We all have hobbies that cost us money. I spent 15 years of my life sat in racing cars and if I totalled together what I have spent on racing it would make your eyes water. I'm a fairly handy driver but I'm never going to be F1 level or even make a career out of it, so why did I do it? Quite simply I loved the fun of it, the adreneline rush it gave me and the cameraderie of the people I met, even though sometimes your car breaks, your soaked in the paddock fixing a problem, or some other grief it gives you, or you get punted off and the missing corners of the car cost you a couple of grand to rebuild. My point is, what you can spend is all relative to your own circumstances and what may seem ridiculous to some isnt quite so daft to the person whos doing it. It seems ridiculous to us that someone is prepared to lose £30m on Rovers, but we dont know what Wael's net worth is and it may be relative. With the AS, is it a hobby, are they trying to take us somewhere, or are they a vehicle to try and make some money for themselves? As another example, 3 weeks ago I had a day trip to Switzerland to with a client of mine who wanted some assistance on a very bespoke watch from Patek Phillipe. This watch was 7 figures. The mind blows at the price tag despite the beauty of the jewelry in it, the intracacy of the mechanical movements and what it takes to produce a one off item. Yet this is one of a hobby for the person and when you consider his net worth, the price was relative to us going to Argos and buying a £200 Citizen. Just tell him not to go swimming with a Patek on his wrist |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Feb 23, 2024 17:12:42 GMT
We all have hobbies that cost us money. I spent 15 years of my life sat in racing cars and if I totalled together what I have spent on racing it would make your eyes water. I'm a fairly handy driver but I'm never going to be F1 level or even make a career out of it, so why did I do it? Quite simply I loved the fun of it, the adreneline rush it gave me and the cameraderie of the people I met, even though sometimes your car breaks, your soaked in the paddock fixing a problem, or some other grief it gives you, or you get punted off and the missing corners of the car cost you a couple of grand to rebuild. My point is, what you can spend is all relative to your own circumstances and what may seem ridiculous to some isnt quite so daft to the person whos doing it. It seems ridiculous to us that someone is prepared to lose £30m on Rovers, but we dont know what Wael's net worth is and it may be relative. With the AS, is it a hobby, are they trying to take us somewhere, or are they a vehicle to try and make some money for themselves? As another example, 3 weeks ago I had a day trip to Switzerland to with a client of mine who wanted some assistance on a very bespoke watch from Patek Phillipe. This watch was 7 figures. The mind blows at the price tag despite the beauty of the jewelry in it, the intracacy of the mechanical movements and what it takes to produce a one off item. Yet this is one of a hobby for the person and when you consider his net worth, the price was relative to us going to Argos and buying a £200 Citizen. Just tell him not to go swimming with a Patek on his wrist I'm not sure I'd wear this out of my own bedroom let alone in a swimming pool. |
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Post by swissgas on Feb 23, 2024 19:57:16 GMT
I’m hoping the Al-Saeeds pre-match interview tomorrow will overshadow the latest concorpse cock-up with an announcement that the Nationwide Finance loan has been repaid and Dwane Sport’s charge over the Mem removed.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,576
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Post by oldie on Feb 23, 2024 20:30:15 GMT
Just tell him not to go swimming with a Patek on his wrist I'm not sure I'd wear this out of my own bedroom let alone in a swimming pool. It says a lot about an individual who can afford to spend that kind of money on a watch, but then asks for help in deciding how to buy it. The word w****r comes to mind. |
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Post by swissgas on Feb 23, 2024 20:41:26 GMT
I'm not sure I'd wear this out of my own bedroom let alone in a swimming pool. It says a lot about an individual who can afford to spend that kind of money on a watch, but then asks for help in deciding how to buy it. The word w****r comes to mind. More evidence that spending is out of control when even the waiters in the CJ Hole Hospitality Lounge can afford Patek Philippe watches. |
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