eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
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Post by eppinggas on Feb 16, 2024 8:52:45 GMT
Dennis Skinner and I are pleased to have you join us on these benches John but there is still plenty of room for more  I agree with all the points in your post and could add my own analysis of the open letter but I'm not sure it would do much good. In your final paragraph you say that each time an investor realises they are in over their heads they have to go out again to attract more investment from someone else who fancies a punt on an English football club. This is true and has been the case with Nick Higgs finding the Al Qadi's willing to take a punt and Wael eventually finding the Al-Saeeds but how long can this go on ? I was shocked when ITB posted that the high interest Nationwide Finance loan is for £5 million and was used to pay day to day expenses as well as for the South Stand. There has been very little comment on this and I suspect it horrified most Gasheads so they'd rather put it to the back of their minds. But it will have confirmed the fear of a growing number of fans that far from being in a "good place" the club was in a far worse position when the Al-Saeeds took over than it was in February 2016. Here are some figures to show this. February 2016 August 2023Annual trading losses £ 1.0 million £ 4.0 million Amount owed to "Wonga Type" loan company £ 2.7 million £ 5.0 million Amount owed through loan from shareholders £ 4.5 million £ 10.0 million * (* estimate. £7 million owed at 30.06.22) Amount of cash put into Rovers to gain control £ 7.2 million* (loan) £ 7.2 million * (*capital) You can see that despite the deterioration in our financial position the Al-Saeeds put the same amount into Rovers as Dwane Sports had done in 2016 to gain control. In both cases, I believe, there was no payment for shares and they were just handed over in return for the cash injection to keep the business afloat. But there is one glaring difference which Gasheads should be aware of. The first thing Dwane Sports did upon taking over was to pay off the loan from MSP Capital and pay off the loans and bonds owing to Nick Higgs and the other shareholders leaving Rovers with a £7.2 million debt to Dwane. But when the Al-Saeeds took over they appear to have put in cash as capital but left the loan to Nationwide Finance still outstanding and did not capitalise the loan from Dwane Sports. Therefore the two charges remain over the Mem and the other assets leaving Rovers with £ 15 million of secured debt outstanding. The Al-Saeeds plan now seems to be to take on even more debt and to persevere with excess spending as the way to achieve their stated aim of getting Rovers to the Championship within three years. If that is the plan and it fails, meaning they need to go out and attract someone else who fancies a punt on Rovers, I think all sensible investors will look at the debt and the business model and give our club a wide berth. So what is the attraction of buying a English football team to all these foreign investors do you think? Do they begin genuinely thinking that they can get the club into the championship or ultimately premier league in due course and then will make serious money? Is it just literally an expensive toy for men that already have everything else they need? If I was really wealthy and if I lived in a country with a much lower standard of football than here I'd still rather invest in a team in my own country, maybe try to use money to improve the standard of football there. I just don't really understand it. Like you say if things aren't managed better we could easily be in an even worse situation in a couple of years time if things don't pan out as per the "plan". Do many championship clubs make a profit even? There can't be any business logic - unless you're an established premiersh!t club with a guaranteed broadcasting income stream, a large capacity and the hope of European football. As for the vast majority of Clubs in the PL/EFL/NL it's just a money pit. It's just bonkers and I do not understand it. Why would you want to own a loss-making football Club? Prestige and/or a rich mans plaything. Wind in the right direction you might even make a profit, but it's extremely unlikely. Supporters are being ripped off. Sky/BT subscription, Sky high ticket prices, Sky high shirt prices, Sky high merchandise prices and in the PL/C - kick off times that suit broadcasters and do not remotely consider the needs of supporters. The 3 most important things in English football are money, money, and money. EFL Clubs are largely just crappy Poundshop versions of the PL. I'm getting a tennsy weensy bit disenchanted with it all. Happy Friday. |
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Post by rowdenhill on Feb 16, 2024 10:14:02 GMT
What's the alternative?
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,361
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 16, 2024 11:36:40 GMT
So what is the attraction of buying a English football team to all these foreign investors do you think? Do they begin genuinely thinking that they can get the club into the championship or ultimately premier league in due course and then will make serious money? Is it just literally an expensive toy for men that already have everything else they need? If I was really wealthy and if I lived in a country with a much lower standard of football than here I'd still rather invest in a team in my own country, maybe try to use money to improve the standard of football there. I just don't really understand it. Like you say if things aren't managed better we could easily be in an even worse situation in a couple of years time if things don't pan out as per the "plan". Do many championship clubs make a profit even? There can't be any business logic - unless you're an established premiersh!t club with a guaranteed broadcasting income stream, a large capacity and the hope of European football. As for the vast majority of Clubs in the PL/EFL/NL it's just a money pit. It's just bonkers and I do not understand it. Why would you want to own a loss-making football Club? Prestige and/or a rich mans plaything. Wind in the right direction you might even make a profit, but it's extremely unlikely. Supporters are being ripped off. Sky/BT subscription, Sky high ticket prices, Sky high shirt prices, Sky high merchandise prices and in the PL/C - kick off times that suit broadcasters and do not remotely consider the needs of supporters. The 3 most important things in English football are money, money, and money. EFL Clubs are largely just crappy Poundshop versions of the PL. I'm getting a tennsy weensy bit disenchanted with it all. Happy Friday. I’d use a much stronger word than disenchanted Ian. It’s no longer a working man’s game. It’s one huge rip off. Hard to feel true connection now |
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,361
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 16, 2024 11:38:27 GMT
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,601
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Post by eppinggas on Feb 16, 2024 14:27:50 GMT
Correct answer KP, it is a great alternative. And it's a growing movement as more and more 'traditional' supporters head lower down the pyramid. On my list for the next month or so is Coggleshall Town, Basildon Town (not the high flying Basildon United) and Nuremberg. Yeah, grass roots football and the Bundesliga. Nuremberg vs St Pauli tickets (Bundeliga 2) start at 18 Euros. Or £15.40 if you prefer. J Lydon: "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?" |
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,979
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Post by Cheshiregas on Feb 16, 2024 15:13:27 GMT
I know a few Gasheads who now watch Yate Town, even before their recent successful run.
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Feb 16, 2024 15:26:27 GMT
Football is simply a microcosm of the UK. Everyone is being milked till they bleed then milked some more. Meanwhile a very small number of people are becoming incredibly wealthy and stuffing offshore tax havens full of the money they have exploited from the rest of us with minimal effort. Just like trickle down economics, trickle down football only works for the few and not the many.
I am enjoying grass roots football and Bundesliga 3 much more than anything aside from the occasional Rovers away win
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Post by swissgas on Feb 17, 2024 13:11:30 GMT
Dennis Skinner and I are pleased to have you join us on these benches John but there is still plenty of room for more I agree with all the points in your post and could add my own analysis of the open letter but I'm not sure it would do much good. In your final paragraph you say that each time an investor realises they are in over their heads they have to go out again to attract more investment from someone else who fancies a punt on an English football club. This is true and has been the case with Nick Higgs finding the Al Qadi's willing to take a punt and Wael eventually finding the Al-Saeeds but how long can this go on ? I was shocked when ITB posted that the high interest Nationwide Finance loan is for £5 million and was used to pay day to day expenses as well as for the South Stand. There has been very little comment on this and I suspect it horrified most Gasheads so they'd rather put it to the back of their minds. But it will have confirmed the fear of a growing number of fans that far from being in a "good place" the club was in a far worse position when the Al-Saeeds took over than it was in February 2016. Here are some figures to show this. February 2016 August 2023Annual trading losses £ 1.0 million £ 4.0 million Amount owed to "Wonga Type" loan company £ 2.7 million £ 5.0 million Amount owed through loan from shareholders £ 4.5 million £ 10.0 million * (* estimate. £7 million owed at 30.06.22) Amount of cash put into Rovers to gain control £ 7.2 million* (loan) £ 7.2 million * (*capital) You can see that despite the deterioration in our financial position the Al-Saeeds put the same amount into Rovers as Dwane Sports had done in 2016 to gain control. In both cases, I believe, there was no payment for shares and they were just handed over in return for the cash injection to keep the business afloat. But there is one glaring difference which Gasheads should be aware of. The first thing Dwane Sports did upon taking over was to pay off the loan from MSP Capital and pay off the loans and bonds owing to Nick Higgs and the other shareholders leaving Rovers with a £7.2 million debt to Dwane. But when the Al-Saeeds took over they appear to have put in cash as capital but left the loan to Nationwide Finance still outstanding and did not capitalise the loan from Dwane Sports. Therefore the two charges remain over the Mem and the other assets leaving Rovers with £ 15 million of secured debt outstanding. The Al-Saeeds plan now seems to be to take on even more debt and to persevere with excess spending as the way to achieve their stated aim of getting Rovers to the Championship within three years. If that is the plan and it fails, meaning they need to go out and attract someone else who fancies a punt on Rovers, I think all sensible investors will look at the debt and the business model and give our club a wide berth. So what is the attraction of buying a English football team to all these foreign investors do you think? Do they begin genuinely thinking that they can get the club into the championship or ultimately premier league in due course and then will make serious money? Is it just literally an expensive toy for men that already have everything else they need? If I was really wealthy and if I lived in a country with a much lower standard of football than here I'd still rather invest in a team in my own country, maybe try to use money to improve the standard of football there. I just don't really understand it. Like you say if things aren't managed better we could easily be in an even worse situation in a couple of years time if things don't pan out as per the "plan". Do many championship clubs make a profit even? I think the attraction for those who have been successful is to satisfy a yearning to compete with other successful people and pit your wits against them. Competition can become addictive and once you have proven you can win in one sphere there is a big temptation to compete in another sphere especially one which is high profile like professional sport. The primary attraction is certainly not making money. And if you can’t carry it through yourself the next best thing is to facilitate your children taking on this great adventure and that is what has happened at Rovers with Wael and Abdullatif. It’s also what’s just happened at West Brom with 43 year old Florida based Shilen Patel taking over and being backed by his father Dr Kiran Patel. The deal has been quoted as being worth 60 million but looking into it I think that figure is made up of 40 million debt assumption and 20 million cash to finance two year projected cash needs so it’s similar to the Al- Saeeds acquisition of Rovers but on a bigger scale. Wael’s father was a wise man who understood the risks involved in giving his son this opportunity which is why he initially put a protective layer of people around him. There was never any guarantee the UWE stadium would go ahead only a commitment to look closely at the project and try to negotiate an acceptable deal. The main purpose of acquiring Rovers was to give Wael an adventure and to keep costs to a level which could be sustained whilst “ hoping” he could achieve success. I think it’s the same story with Abdullatif except that he is keeping out of the limelight and Hussain is fronting the operation. But from what we can see after six months, and certainly from the contents of this open letter, it appears they are still only “ hoping” they can achieve success. With no real indication of how long the current level of losses can be sustained. |
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warehamgas
Predictions League
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Posts: 3,590
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Post by warehamgas on Feb 17, 2024 21:25:11 GMT
Outstanding!. In the 60 years I’ve followed this club I have never seen anything like this. This is commitment, clear strategy and the guts to provide a vision that can be measured. Now we’ve got all we need to ride out the unavoidable bumps in the road and get behind this project. UTG. In the 60 years of following Rovers I have heard this stuff so many times. The proof is in the pudding. At present I am totally unconvinced. The transparency around the club are as about as clear as a pea soup fog.
We shall see...Just seen this. Les, that is wonderful whether it was intended or not. I doubt we shall see anything if it is a pea-souper! 👍 UTG! |
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,361
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 18, 2024 11:23:31 GMT
So what is the attraction of buying a English football team to all these foreign investors do you think? Do they begin genuinely thinking that they can get the club into the championship or ultimately premier league in due course and then will make serious money? Is it just literally an expensive toy for men that already have everything else they need? If I was really wealthy and if I lived in a country with a much lower standard of football than here I'd still rather invest in a team in my own country, maybe try to use money to improve the standard of football there. I just don't really understand it. Like you say if things aren't managed better we could easily be in an even worse situation in a couple of years time if things don't pan out as per the "plan". Do many championship clubs make a profit even? I think the attraction for those who have been successful is to satisfy a yearning to compete with other successful people and pit your wits against them. Competition can become addictive and once you have proven you can win in one sphere there is a big temptation to compete in another sphere especially one which is high profile like professional sport. The primary attraction is certainly not making money. And if you can’t carry it through yourself the next best thing is to facilitate your children taking on this great adventure and that is what has happened at Rovers with Wael and Abdullatif. It’s also what’s just happened at West Brom with 43 year old Florida based Shilen Patel taking over and being backed by his father Dr Kiran Patel. The deal has been quoted as being worth 60 million but looking into it I think that figure is made up of 40 million debt assumption and 20 million cash to finance two year projected cash needs so it’s similar to the Al- Saeeds acquisition of Rovers but on a bigger scale. Wael’s father was a wise man who understood the risks involved in giving his son this opportunity which is why he initially put a protective layer of people around him. There was never any guarantee the UWE stadium would go ahead only a commitment to look closely at the project and try to negotiate an acceptable deal. The main purpose of acquiring Rovers was to give Wael an adventure and to keep costs to a level which could be sustained whilst “ hoping” he could achieve success. I think it’s the same story with Abdullatif except that he is keeping out of the limelight and Hussain is fronting the operation. But from what we can see after six months, and certainly from the contents of this open letter, it appears they are still only “ hoping” they can achieve success. With no real indication of how long the current level of losses can be sustained. And get selfies with famous people. Baffling what wealth can do. Would I be close if I said nouveau riche ? Stinks of the mindset of a much younger and naive man. I’d love to be able to go to the SC open night but no places for non members, snuck in once and saw an ex poster of this place make a real fool of himself. Shame as I like him, even if he blocked me for simply not agreeing with him, on faces book. I did try private messaging but seems to want yes men but also pity..It was a pity his spoken words were not up to his usual well written blog |
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Post by swissgas on Feb 18, 2024 14:57:11 GMT
I think the attraction for those who have been successful is to satisfy a yearning to compete with other successful people and pit your wits against them. Competition can become addictive and once you have proven you can win in one sphere there is a big temptation to compete in another sphere especially one which is high profile like professional sport. The primary attraction is certainly not making money. And if you can’t carry it through yourself the next best thing is to facilitate your children taking on this great adventure and that is what has happened at Rovers with Wael and Abdullatif. It’s also what’s just happened at West Brom with 43 year old Florida based Shilen Patel taking over and being backed by his father Dr Kiran Patel. The deal has been quoted as being worth 60 million but looking into it I think that figure is made up of 40 million debt assumption and 20 million cash to finance two year projected cash needs so it’s similar to the Al- Saeeds acquisition of Rovers but on a bigger scale. Wael’s father was a wise man who understood the risks involved in giving his son this opportunity which is why he initially put a protective layer of people around him. There was never any guarantee the UWE stadium would go ahead only a commitment to look closely at the project and try to negotiate an acceptable deal. The main purpose of acquiring Rovers was to give Wael an adventure and to keep costs to a level which could be sustained whilst “ hoping” he could achieve success. I think it’s the same story with Abdullatif except that he is keeping out of the limelight and Hussain is fronting the operation. But from what we can see after six months, and certainly from the contents of this open letter, it appears they are still only “ hoping” they can achieve success. With no real indication of how long the current level of losses can be sustained. And get selfies with famous people. Baffling what wealth can do. Would I be close if I said nouveau riche ? Stinks of the mindset of a much younger and naive man. I’d love to be able to go to the SC open night but no places for non members, snuck in once and saw an ex poster of this place make a real fool of himself. Shame as I like him, even if he blocked me for simply not agreeing with him, on faces book. I did try private messaging but seems to want yes men but also pity..It was a pity his spoken words were not up to his usual well written blog Not a very popular subject is it KP With 95% of the fan base being apathetic about the business side of the club the problem is that the 5% who are willing to show they do care are divided and a great many of them believe any hard questioning of the ownership is disrespectful. So if a hard question is asked at the SC forum or at the AGM the questioner is likely to be heckled and knocked back by fellow Gasheads before the owners even get the chance not to answer it. One good question to ask would be about the Nationwide Finance loan and why it has not been repaid or refinanced at a more competitive rate. In looking at the West Brom takeover I found that their previous owners were running out of cash in December 2022 and had been forced to take out a 20 million loan with MSD Holdings at a 15% interest rate. If Rovers loan with Nationwide is for 5 million at a similar rate then the club will be paying 750 000 pa in interest ( 15000 per week) and yet we’ve been told the proposed East Stand extensions will be financed through another loan. Surely anyone with Rovers best interests at heart will be interested to know how all this interest is going to be paid ? Or is it just not that interesting ? |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Feb 18, 2024 16:00:20 GMT
And get selfies with famous people. Baffling what wealth can do. Would I be close if I said nouveau riche ? Stinks of the mindset of a much younger and naive man. I’d love to be able to go to the SC open night but no places for non members, snuck in once and saw an ex poster of this place make a real fool of himself. Shame as I like him, even if he blocked me for simply not agreeing with him, on faces book. I did try private messaging but seems to want yes men but also pity..It was a pity his spoken words were not up to his usual well written blog Not a very popular subject is it KP With 95% of the fan base being apathetic about the business side of the club One good question to ask would be about the Nationwide Finance loan and why it has not been repaid or refinanced at a more competitive rate. In looking at the West Brom takeover I found that their previous owners were running out of cash in December 2022 and had been forced to take out a 20 million loan with MSD Holdings at a 15% interest rate. If Rovers loan with Nationwide is for 5 million at a similar rate then the club will be paying 750 000 pa in interest ( 15000 per week) and yet we’ve been told the proposed East Stand extensions will be financed through another loan. Surely anyone with Rovers best interests at heart will be interested to know how all this interest is going to be paid ? Or is it just not that interesting ? Agreed Unless personal guarantees are in place. I don't agree with this "Wael’s father was a wise man who understood the risks involved in giving his son this opportunity which is why he initially put a protective layer of people around him. There was never any guarantee the UWE stadium would go ahead only a commitment to look closely at the project and try to negotiate an acceptable deal. The main purpose of acquiring Rovers was to give Wael an adventure and to keep costs to a level which could be sustained whilst “ hoping” he could achieve success." Because you cannot actually know that. It's plausible, albeit a tad immature and pathetic", but you cannot know that, can you? This is so true "the problem is that the 5% who are willing to show they do care are divided and a great many of them believe any hard questioning of the ownership is disrespectful. So if a hard question is asked at the SC forum or at the AGM the questioner is likely to be heckled and knocked back by fellow Gasheads before the owners even get the chance not to answer it." That is happened in 2002-2004 and came to a head at the SC EGM in 2004 that was set to elect the first fans reps to the FC Board. The reality I think Swiss is that at our club it has become a Real Estate game with a bit of added playtime for the owners in the shape of the odd football game. I want to believe otherwise, but the numbers speak for themselves. |
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Post by swissgas on Feb 18, 2024 17:01:15 GMT
Not a very popular subject is it KP With 95% of the fan base being apathetic about the business side of the club One good question to ask would be about the Nationwide Finance loan and why it has not been repaid or refinanced at a more competitive rate. In looking at the West Brom takeover I found that their previous owners were running out of cash in December 2022 and had been forced to take out a 20 million loan with MSD Holdings at a 15% interest rate. If Rovers loan with Nationwide is for 5 million at a similar rate then the club will be paying 750 000 pa in interest ( 15000 per week) and yet we’ve been told the proposed East Stand extensions will be financed through another loan. Surely anyone with Rovers best interests at heart will be interested to know how all this interest is going to be paid ? Or is it just not that interesting ? Agreed Unless personal guarantees are in place. I don't agree with this "Wael’s father was a wise man who understood the risks involved in giving his son this opportunity which is why he initially put a protective layer of people around him. There was never any guarantee the UWE stadium would go ahead only a commitment to look closely at the project and try to negotiate an acceptable deal. The main purpose of acquiring Rovers was to give Wael an adventure and to keep costs to a level which could be sustained whilst “ hoping” he could achieve success." Because you cannot actually know that. It's plausible, albeit a tad immature and pathetic", but you cannot know that, can you? This is so true "the problem is that the 5% who are willing to show they do care are divided and a great many of them believe any hard questioning of the ownership is disrespectful. So if a hard question is asked at the SC forum or at the AGM the questioner is likely to be heckled and knocked back by fellow Gasheads before the owners even get the chance not to answer it." That is happened in 2002-2004 and came to a head at the SC EGM in 2004 that was set to elect the first fans reps to the FC Board. The reality I think Swiss is that at our club it has become a Real Estate game with a bit of added playtime for the owners in the shape of the odd football game. I want to believe otherwise, but the numbers speak for themselves. We touched on personal guarantees a few weeks ago and Cheshire thought that in the event of a default Nationwide would go after the assets of the club first. But the interest has to be paid anyway and the big question is how ? If attendances were up you could say the extra revenue would cover the interest but they’ve actually fallen by 10% this season. I’ve good reasons for believing the UWE was not the prime consideration when Dwane Sports acquired Rovers and that the main reason was to provide Wael with a vehicle to satisfy his personal ambition of owning a football club. The people we saw alongside him at the table on day one were deliberately put in place by the family to help steer him in the right direction but it didn’t quite work as intended. The picture after the win at Charlton Athletic in August last year was very revealing when it showed Abdullatif celebrating wildly as if to say his “ new baby” was up and running. It was a big surprise to me that we didn’t see recruitment of experienced football and financial people to help him and instead we have two of his friends of whom we know nothing. But it’s a similar situation to the one we had post February 2016 with the son of a rich man being given the opportunity to fulfill his dream. Who pays ? At the risk of sounding boring again the answer is that with the current cost structure we, the fans together with commercial income, pay about 50%, the EFL central funding pays about 15% and the owners pay about 35%. The answer is to get the costs down to a level where Rovers are not so dependent on owner funding, which is what the Agenda for Change said twenty years ago, and that can be achieved while still remaining competitive as I’ve posted umpteen times. Until Rovers do that we’ll always be dependent on the kind of owners we now have who really don’t see any need to be candid with us. If capital expenditure and even day to day running costs are going to be funded by high interest loans then there’s only one outcome isn’t there. Is the solution to sell a portion of land which isn’t even zoned for development yet and on which we’ve just spent a million laying two training pitches ? I don’t think so but if it is they’ll have to hurry up ! |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Feb 18, 2024 17:41:14 GMT
Agreed Unless personal guarantees are in place. I don't agree with this "Wael’s father was a wise man who understood the risks involved in giving his son this opportunity which is why he initially put a protective layer of people around him. There was never any guarantee the UWE stadium would go ahead only a commitment to look closely at the project and try to negotiate an acceptable deal. The main purpose of acquiring Rovers was to give Wael an adventure and to keep costs to a level which could be sustained whilst “ hoping” he could achieve success." Because you cannot actually know that. It's plausible, albeit a tad immature and pathetic", but you cannot know that, can you? This is so true "the problem is that the 5% who are willing to show they do care are divided and a great many of them believe any hard questioning of the ownership is disrespectful. So if a hard question is asked at the SC forum or at the AGM the questioner is likely to be heckled and knocked back by fellow Gasheads before the owners even get the chance not to answer it." That is happened in 2002-2004 and came to a head at the SC EGM in 2004 that was set to elect the first fans reps to the FC Board. The reality I think Swiss is that at our club it has become a Real Estate game with a bit of added playtime for the owners in the shape of the odd football game. I want to believe otherwise, but the numbers speak for themselves. We touched on personal guarantees a few weeks ago and Cheshire thought that in the event of a default Nationwide would go after the assets of the club first. But the interest has to be paid anyway and the big question is how ? If attendances were up you could say the extra revenue would cover the interest but they’ve actually fallen by 10% this season. I’ve good reasons for believing the UWE was not the prime consideration when Dwane Sports acquired Rovers and that the main reason was to provide Wael with a vehicle to satisfy his personal ambition of owning a football club. The people we saw alongside him at the table on day one were deliberately put in place by the family to help steer him in the right direction but it didn’t quite work as intended. The picture after the win at Charlton Athletic in August last year was very revealing when it showed Abdullatif celebrating wildly as if to say his “ new baby” was up and running. It was a big surprise to me that we didn’t see recruitment of experienced football and financial people to help him and instead we have two of his friends of whom we know nothing. But it’s a similar situation to the one we had post February 2016 with the son of a rich man being given the opportunity to fulfill his dream. Who pays ? At the risk of sounding boring again the answer is that with the current cost structure we, the fans together with commercial income, pay about 50%, the EFL central funding pays about 15% and the owners pay about 35%. The answer is to get the costs down to a level where Rovers are not so dependent on owner funding, which is what the Agenda for Change said twenty years ago, and that can be achieved while still remaining competitive as I’ve posted umpteen times. Until Rovers do that we’ll always be dependent on the kind of owners we now have who really don’t see any need to be candid with us. If capital expenditure and even day to day running costs are going to be funded by high interest loans then there’s only one outcome isn’t there. Is the solution to sell a portion of land which isn’t even zoned for development yet and on which we’ve just spent a million laying two training pitches ? I don’t think so but if it is they’ll have to hurry up ! On personal guarantees. Chesh is right of course, banks are like water, they will always choose the easiest route. And assets are that. As long there is enough head room in those assets then yes that is exactly what will happen. When they do realise those assets the club will be homeless and probably gone forever. If the banks chase personal guarantees then the guarantor will have to pay from liquid assets or realise physical assets. Either way the club will be gone. This is the cliff edge we are standing on. I agree with you entirely, unless the club becomes sustainable financially on a current cash flow basis, we will end up falling off that cliff eventually. Not if, but when. |
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Post by swissgas on Feb 18, 2024 18:26:32 GMT
We touched on personal guarantees a few weeks ago and Cheshire thought that in the event of a default Nationwide would go after the assets of the club first. But the interest has to be paid anyway and the big question is how ? If attendances were up you could say the extra revenue would cover the interest but they’ve actually fallen by 10% this season. I’ve good reasons for believing the UWE was not the prime consideration when Dwane Sports acquired Rovers and that the main reason was to provide Wael with a vehicle to satisfy his personal ambition of owning a football club. The people we saw alongside him at the table on day one were deliberately put in place by the family to help steer him in the right direction but it didn’t quite work as intended. The picture after the win at Charlton Athletic in August last year was very revealing when it showed Abdullatif celebrating wildly as if to say his “ new baby” was up and running. It was a big surprise to me that we didn’t see recruitment of experienced football and financial people to help him and instead we have two of his friends of whom we know nothing. But it’s a similar situation to the one we had post February 2016 with the son of a rich man being given the opportunity to fulfill his dream. Who pays ? At the risk of sounding boring again the answer is that with the current cost structure we, the fans together with commercial income, pay about 50%, the EFL central funding pays about 15% and the owners pay about 35%. The answer is to get the costs down to a level where Rovers are not so dependent on owner funding, which is what the Agenda for Change said twenty years ago, and that can be achieved while still remaining competitive as I’ve posted umpteen times. Until Rovers do that we’ll always be dependent on the kind of owners we now have who really don’t see any need to be candid with us. If capital expenditure and even day to day running costs are going to be funded by high interest loans then there’s only one outcome isn’t there. Is the solution to sell a portion of land which isn’t even zoned for development yet and on which we’ve just spent a million laying two training pitches ? I don’t think so but if it is they’ll have to hurry up ! On personal guarantees. Chesh is right of course, banks are like water, they will always choose the easiest route. And assets are that. As long there is enough head room in those assets then yes that is exactly what will happen. When they do realise those assets the club will be homeless and probably gone forever. If the banks chase personal guarantees then the guarantor will have to pay from liquid assets or realise physical assets. Either way the club will be gone. This is the cliff edge we are standing on. I agree with you entirely, unless the club becomes sustainable financially on a current cash flow basis, we will end up falling off that cliff eventually. Not if, but when. “ Not if but when”. You sound like Nick Higgs But don’t worry we’re in a much better place these days because it’s “ Championship in 3 years” instead of “ Championship in 5 years”. Last week someone within the football industry, who is as astonished as we are about the situation at Rovers, sent me a UEFA report entitled “The European Club Finance and Investment Landscape”. It is a very long and detailed document but chapter 2 shows that those at the very top of the game have identified the importance of cost control and that if this is neglected then financial problems are inevitable. “This chapter examines clubs’ operating costs across Europe and reports on the very latest trends in club costs. Financial discourse tends to focus on the need to grow revenues, but professional club football has never really had a revenue problem. With revenues constantly breaking records, more than doubling since 2012, financial problems are nearly always driven by a lack of cost control.” When the Al- Saeeds came in I thought they had identified our problem and were going to do something about it and explain to Gasheads why this was necessary and what the long term benefits will be. But with the open letter we are back to the old “ promise the earth” mantra which is disappointing to say the least. |
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,601
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Post by eppinggas on Feb 18, 2024 19:43:02 GMT
On personal guarantees. Chesh is right of course, banks are like water, they will always choose the easiest route. And assets are that. As long there is enough head room in those assets then yes that is exactly what will happen. When they do realise those assets the club will be homeless and probably gone forever. If the banks chase personal guarantees then the guarantor will have to pay from liquid assets or realise physical assets. Either way the club will be gone. This is the cliff edge we are standing on. I agree with you entirely, unless the club becomes sustainable financially on a current cash flow basis, we will end up falling off that cliff eventually. Not if, but when. “ Not if but when”. You sound like Nick Higgs But don’t worry we’re in a much better place these days because it’s “ Championship in 3 years” instead of “ Championship in 5 years”. Last week someone within the football industry, who is as astonished as we are about the situation at Rovers, sent me a UEFA report entitled “The European Club Finance and Investment Landscape”. It is a very long and detailed document but chapter 2 shows that those at the very top of the game have identified the importance of cost control and that if this is neglected then financial problems are inevitable. “This chapter examines clubs’ operating costs across Europe and reports on the very latest trends in club costs. Financial discourse tends to focus on the need to grow revenues, but professional club football has never really had a revenue problem. With revenues constantly breaking records, more than doubling since 2012, financial problems are nearly always driven by a lack of cost control.” When the Al- Saeeds came in I thought they had identified our problem and were going to do something about it and explain to Gasheads why this was necessary and what the long term benefits will be. But with the open letter we are back to the old “ promise the earth” mantra which is disappointing to say the least. So Rovers are very likely to be in a weaker financial position since the new owners took over? I guess to be fair we won't know that until we see/don't see them cover the inevitable shortfall in future company accounts. But as you state - if the South Stand is being financed via a loan - that does not bode well for the future. Just more debt. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,531
Member is Online
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Post by oldie on Feb 18, 2024 20:08:05 GMT
“ Not if but when”. You sound like Nick Higgs But don’t worry we’re in a much better place these days because it’s “ Championship in 3 years” instead of “ Championship in 5 years”. Last week someone within the football industry, who is as astonished as we are about the situation at Rovers, sent me a UEFA report entitled “The European Club Finance and Investment Landscape”. It is a very long and detailed document but chapter 2 shows that those at the very top of the game have identified the importance of cost control and that if this is neglected then financial problems are inevitable. “This chapter examines clubs’ operating costs across Europe and reports on the very latest trends in club costs. Financial discourse tends to focus on the need to grow revenues, but professional club football has never really had a revenue problem. With revenues constantly breaking records, more than doubling since 2012, financial problems are nearly always driven by a lack of cost control.” When the Al- Saeeds came in I thought they had identified our problem and were going to do something about it and explain to Gasheads why this was necessary and what the long term benefits will be. But with the open letter we are back to the old “ promise the earth” mantra which is disappointing to say the least. So Rovers are very likely to be in a weaker financial position since the new owners took over? I guess to be fair we won't know that until we see/don't see them cover the inevitable shortfall in future company accounts. But as you state - if the South Stand is being financed via a loan - that does not bode well for the future. Just more debt. But Epping, that shortfall is the weakness. Personally I accept that the new owners will take some time to balance income and expenditure, and I do get that investing into ground facilities and the match day offer will suck in cash. But, are the owners investing or just loading the balance sheet with more debt to fund than cash requirement? It looks like the latter. If so, what exactly are they bringing to the table? |
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Post by Topper Gas on Feb 18, 2024 21:13:45 GMT
“ Not if but when”. You sound like Nick Higgs But don’t worry we’re in a much better place these days because it’s “ Championship in 3 years” instead of “ Championship in 5 years”. Last week someone within the football industry, who is as astonished as we are about the situation at Rovers, sent me a UEFA report entitled “The European Club Finance and Investment Landscape”. It is a very long and detailed document but chapter 2 shows that those at the very top of the game have identified the importance of cost control and that if this is neglected then financial problems are inevitable. “This chapter examines clubs’ operating costs across Europe and reports on the very latest trends in club costs. Financial discourse tends to focus on the need to grow revenues, but professional club football has never really had a revenue problem. With revenues constantly breaking records, more than doubling since 2012, financial problems are nearly always driven by a lack of cost control.” When the Al- Saeeds came in I thought they had identified our problem and were going to do something about it and explain to Gasheads why this was necessary and what the long term benefits will be. But with the open letter we are back to the old “ promise the earth” mantra which is disappointing to say the least. So Rovers are very likely to be in a weaker financial position since the new owners took over? I guess to be fair we won't know that until we see/don't see them cover the inevitable shortfall in future company accounts. But as you state - if the South Stand is being financed via a loan - that does not bode well for the future. Just more debt. The loan for the South Stand was taken out well before the new owners came on board, in fact given their religious beliefs it's v. unlikely they'd ever take out an interest bearing loan, I'm surprised it hasn't already been changed to a non interest bearing loan. As far as the loan being for £5m and at 15% interest, where's the actual evidence that's the case given ITB/G1981 as clearly turned "rogue" on Gaschat re the new owners so I wouldn't believe a word he now posts. Anyway an interest article in today's financial press suggests one of the Asda brothers won't pay any Stamp Duty when they sell their share of the business as it is register in Jersey, which probably finally explains why DS was also registered in the CI . |
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,361
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 19, 2024 11:30:29 GMT
And get selfies with famous people. Baffling what wealth can do. Would I be close if I said nouveau riche ? Stinks of the mindset of a much younger and naive man. I’d love to be able to go to the SC open night but no places for non members, snuck in once and saw an ex poster of this place make a real fool of himself. Shame as I like him, even if he blocked me for simply not agreeing with him, on faces book. I did try private messaging but seems to want yes men but also pity..It was a pity his spoken words were not up to his usual well written blog Not a very popular subject is it KP With 95% of the fan base being apathetic about the business side of the club the problem is that the 5% who are willing to show they do care are divided and a great many of them believe any hard questioning of the ownership is disrespectful. So if a hard question is asked at the SC forum or at the AGM the questioner is likely to be heckled and knocked back by fellow Gasheads before the owners even get the chance not to answer it. One good question to ask would be about the Nationwide Finance loan and why it has not been repaid or refinanced at a more competitive rate. In looking at the West Brom takeover I found that their previous owners were running out of cash in December 2022 and had been forced to take out a 20 million loan with MSD Holdings at a 15% interest rate. If Rovers loan with Nationwide is for 5 million at a similar rate then the club will be paying 750 000 pa in interest ( 15000 per week) and yet we’ve been told the proposed East Stand extensions will be financed through another loan. Surely anyone with Rovers best interests at heart will be interested to know how all this interest is going to be paid ? Or is it just not that interesting ? I think most don’t think that far ahead, so long as they have a game to go to. I genuinely fear the club is being run to ground but there are very few of us that look further than our nose. It needs addressing, professionally and with a business mindset. |
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Post by swissgas on Feb 19, 2024 15:13:45 GMT
“ Not if but when”. You sound like Nick Higgs But don’t worry we’re in a much better place these days because it’s “ Championship in 3 years” instead of “ Championship in 5 years”. Last week someone within the football industry, who is as astonished as we are about the situation at Rovers, sent me a UEFA report entitled “The European Club Finance and Investment Landscape”. It is a very long and detailed document but chapter 2 shows that those at the very top of the game have identified the importance of cost control and that if this is neglected then financial problems are inevitable. “This chapter examines clubs’ operating costs across Europe and reports on the very latest trends in club costs. Financial discourse tends to focus on the need to grow revenues, but professional club football has never really had a revenue problem. With revenues constantly breaking records, more than doubling since 2012, financial problems are nearly always driven by a lack of cost control.” When the Al- Saeeds came in I thought they had identified our problem and were going to do something about it and explain to Gasheads why this was necessary and what the long term benefits will be. But with the open letter we are back to the old “ promise the earth” mantra which is disappointing to say the least. So Rovers are very likely to be in a weaker financial position since the new owners took over? I guess to be fair we won't know that until we see/don't see them cover the inevitable shortfall in future company accounts. But as you state - if the South Stand is being financed via a loan - that does not bode well for the future. Just more debt. Technically we should have been in a better position because before the takeover Dwane were owed 10 million and it seems likely Nationwide were owed 5 million but subsequently 7 million was put in as share capital. I think that 7 million was calculated to meet the EFL owners test and intended to cover two years projected cash requirements. But who did the projections ? Were the projections based on increased revenue from higher attendances due to the South Stand when in fact attendances have fallen ? Did they include the extra costs associated with getting planning approval for the South Stand ? Did the projections make any allowance for the cost of paying off Barton and his staff and bringing in replacements ? Did they account for the 700K debt to “ key management personnel” and if this was owed to Eddy Jennings for player commissions had it been settled by the time of his departure ? Was the projected revenue from asset sales accurately calculated or was Collins’ value overstated ? If the projections were wrong and the cash needs are much greater than expected then the 7 million may possibly run out by the end of this year. In which case we’ll need another equity injection in 2024. |
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