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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Jan 26, 2024 19:58:49 GMT
Oh right. Thank you. I probably shouldn't be surprised. What you dont do is bid an amount that releases the contract which makes it obvious that you know the release clause amount or the club will know that you know confidential information and that could open you up to a legal proceeding. For example, say Conteh contract release fee was £300k you wouldn't bid £300k or even £300,010. It's best to call it £350k and call it a generous offer. As in what the s**theads did with the scaly thing. Obvious they knew but I guess we decided not to pursue a claim against them. Perhaps we did learn something from the “watertight case” we had against Shamesbury |
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Jan 26, 2024 20:22:36 GMT
Thats fair. As a caveat to that though, I'm not the only fan of our club that know or mix in football circles. And those people are all saying the same and we have no reason to lie about it. Mainly because it hurts a bit when the carelessness of people who represent us leave a bad impression. We should always be respectful and professional even in a heavy defeat. Did you ever listen to the podcast with DMac and his club secretary? If not, have a listen, it makes for interesting listening, not just on how we made a total hash of it, but actually what work has to go in to any transfer from any club. When it comes to transfer negotiations theres a measure of respect between owners. That was lost with DMac and it took a phone call live on SSN from Wael to try and sort it out. The P'boro club secretart said that the club secretaries stick together, its a band of brothers, they all know each other and speak very regularly. Except we dont have a club secretary, so that made life harder for her, and at our end, Abdul and Tom attempted to handle it themselves and made a cats arse of it all. Rather than realise this is a bit of skill and recruit a proper club sec, they have totally ignored that and history seems to have started to repeat itself with the negotiations by, according to Dave Artell, submitting 3 bids on a contract with a release clause!!  Agreed. We do know that as majority shareholders, the AS are responsible now for running and structuring the club. Once you give away your majority share, you have to fall in line. It's not like car finance where someone else owns it and you get to drive it. The AS are the majority shareholders now, which means the buck now stops with Hussain and Abdul and its their tree we must bark up. Which is why when press put in for interview requests to answer some questions, its for the AS and not Wael. As above. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm merely saying, these are the new guys and 6 months in this is what they havent done, which should have been done and what they have done they have made a total mess of. Do they have the experience, mettle, contacts and humilty to allow professionals in or is their aim to reduce costs by continually fudging it themselves? What are there plans for a structure? Perhaps. Wael has made some grave errors on his watch for sure and all of them completely avoidable with some better help, advice and experience. Same with Nick. Same with Geoff and Flook. People arent perfect and most of the decisions are often made with the very best intentions even if it isnt the correct one with hindsight or even with the possibility of forseeing the failure as its happening. So far with the AS, it appears to me to be incompetence personified. And I agree with him to a large degree on this. But how is it when I am questioning the AS competence I am just accused of being a Wael supporter rather than looking it objectively and thinking that myself or others may have a point? Swiss and I have sparred, debated and discussed many things over the years. Some things I do agree with him on, some things, which can be wildly speculative from my POV I wont agree with, but that doesnt mean its because I curry favour blindly with Wael or anyone else. A much more pleasant and productive conversation - thank you for the extra colour. I maintain though that much of this simply won’t be visible to ordinary supporters like myself who have no insight into how things are being run at board level. Agree that such behaviour is neither professional nor acceptable. As a minority shareholder however Wael cannot absolve himself from this totally either. He may not have decision making veto/responsibility and the final accountability may not now rest with him but he is still in a position of influence and has some power (admittedly reduced) within the board construct. I’d be surprised if any defence like “I was only a minority shareholder” would wash if the club broke the law for example. They’d all collectively be up to their necks in it if that happened. From my limited external perspective it does look like a major falling out between the two parties, that Wael is having serious seller’s regret and is chucking rocks publicly in from the sidelines to deliberately undermine the new owners. In the same way that I really disliked the way poundland pep used to hang players out to dry in public, I dislike this too. Even if you are totally right Wael does not come out of this looking good either. If I am right with my speculation then a much better approach would be for the board to close ranks for a while, attempt to resolve their differences and if that is not possible then one side buys out the other. It’s a waste of opportunity too as Wael could and should be coaching the new owners as they pick up the ropes and help them avoid repeating mistakes he has made. It does remind me of the way that Coughlan and Tisdale seemed to be similarly undermined and now seems to be an unpleasant norm that is becoming established at the club. Incredibly sad imho…. |
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Jan 26, 2024 20:42:51 GMT
Oh right. Thank you. I probably shouldn't be surprised. What you dont do is bid an amount that releases the contract which makes it obvious that you know the release clause amount or the club will know that you know confidential information and that could open you up to a legal proceeding. For example, say Conteh contract release fee was £300k you wouldn't bid £300k or even £300,010. It's best to call it £350k and call it a generous offer. You might chance your arm and offer less than the clause if you think the seller really needs the money. My business is multi-£Bn procurement and as a point of principle would never agree to pay sellers asking price or above that unless I was absolutely desperate. It’s a judgement call then as to how low you start. Too low and you run the risk of pissing the seller off but that in my experience is rarely terminal and usually recoverable. Start too high and you are instantly on the back foot and ripe for being squeezed upwards. Key is to do your prep thoroughly first. Understand as best as you can what true market value of the asset is have credible alternatives that you can shift to if you think the asking price is too high and definitely do not put all your eggs in one basket. Seems to me that in the case of JCH we did none of the former and all of the latter and I am glad that deal failed because of this. I have no way of knowing from my perspective who from BRFC was involved in this, and if that included Wael. If he didn’t did he try to advise or counsel the new owners or was he an active bystander? |
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Post by lostinspace on Jan 26, 2024 20:59:37 GMT
My understanding of the JCH thing is that like in the recent Charlton effort to sign him ,was that he asked for more money than had been agreed at the last minute, hence the breakdown, I get the impression now he is just going to sit out his current contract and " just take the money" ....Peterborough have not been too clever here and despite there being no queue at the door,still want top dollar
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jan 26, 2024 22:25:33 GMT
Thats fair. As a caveat to that though, I'm not the only fan of our club that know or mix in football circles. And those people are all saying the same and we have no reason to lie about it. Mainly because it hurts a bit when the carelessness of people who represent us leave a bad impression. We should always be respectful and professional even in a heavy defeat. Did you ever listen to the podcast with DMac and his club secretary? If not, have a listen, it makes for interesting listening, not just on how we made a total hash of it, but actually what work has to go in to any transfer from any club. When it comes to transfer negotiations theres a measure of respect between owners. That was lost with DMac and it took a phone call live on SSN from Wael to try and sort it out. The P'boro club secretart said that the club secretaries stick together, its a band of brothers, they all know each other and speak very regularly. Except we dont have a club secretary, so that made life harder for her, and at our end, Abdul and Tom attempted to handle it themselves and made a cats arse of it all. Rather than realise this is a bit of skill and recruit a proper club sec, they have totally ignored that and history seems to have started to repeat itself with the negotiations by, according to Dave Artell, submitting 3 bids on a contract with a release clause!! Agreed. We do know that as majority shareholders, the AS are responsible now for running and structuring the club. Once you give away your majority share, you have to fall in line. It's not like car finance where someone else owns it and you get to drive it. The AS are the majority shareholders now, which means the buck now stops with Hussain and Abdul and its their tree we must bark up. Which is why when press put in for interview requests to answer some questions, its for the AS and not Wael. As above. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm merely saying, these are the new guys and 6 months in this is what they havent done, which should have been done and what they have done they have made a total mess of. Do they have the experience, mettle, contacts and humilty to allow professionals in or is their aim to reduce costs by continually fudging it themselves? What are there plans for a structure? Perhaps. Wael has made some grave errors on his watch for sure and all of them completely avoidable with some better help, advice and experience. Same with Nick. Same with Geoff and Flook. People arent perfect and most of the decisions are often made with the very best intentions even if it isnt the correct one with hindsight or even with the possibility of forseeing the failure as its happening. So far with the AS, it appears to me to be incompetence personified. And I agree with him to a large degree on this. But how is it when I am questioning the AS competence I am just accused of being a Wael supporter rather than looking it objectively and thinking that myself or others may have a point? Swiss and I have sparred, debated and discussed many things over the years. Some things I do agree with him on, some things, which can be wildly speculative from my POV I wont agree with, but that doesnt mean its because I curry favour blindly with Wael or anyone else. It’s all a circular argument about he said/ he said/ he said from 3 posters who are all articulate, all determined to have their say and all feeling themselves to be correct. No idea who’s right really.but successive owners appear to be leaving a lot of questions unanswered which, ultimately, is likely to be bad news for BRFC, which is the only part of the argument that I really care about. Some very strong opinions, voiced articulately, but in the end opinions with a few facts. ( For example I believe ITB when he says he is owed money by the ASs. That’s poor and if ITB is owed how many more are?) Another observation: Anyone believing that what Darren Mac and Fry say about anything is anywhere near the truth needs their head examining. If they told me today was Friday (it is btw) I’d check it on a calendar first. They would say everything and anything to save themselves from criticism. They have always been held up by many on both forums as the model way of doing things. They have done well for Posh and I wish we’d been as successful as they have in the last 5 years in terms of recruitment. But I bet they’ve upset others as well and on this occasion perhaps they didn’t like it that the JCH move didn’t go the way they wanted. UTG! |
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bondigas
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Post by bondigas on Jan 27, 2024 8:24:12 GMT
You make some very valid points, but, if the personal attacks had been made on Wael as have been made on Abdullatif over the last few days there would have been uproar,condemnation and bans on those that posted. Who knows the new owners may be taking a closer look at the aged creditors ledger and are discovering there are invoices there that cannot be substantiated as work carried out in the best interest of the club and are disputing payment.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jan 27, 2024 8:33:48 GMT
You make some very valid points, but, if the personal attacks had been made on Wael as have been made on Abdullatif over the last few days there would have been uproar,condemnation and bans on those that posted. Who knows the new owners may be taking a closer look at the aged creditors ledger and are discovering there are invoices there that cannot be substantiated as work carried out in the best interest of the club and are disputing payment. Yes, some of the posts have been very personal to the son esp on the other place. And as you say had it been against Wail then you can just imagine ….. UTG! |
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jan 27, 2024 9:18:48 GMT
You make some very valid points, but, if the personal attacks had been made on Wael as have been made on Abdullatif over the last few days there would have been uproar,condemnation and bans on those that posted. Who knows the new owners may be taking a closer look at the aged creditors ledger and are discovering there are invoices there that cannot be substantiated as work carried out in the best interest of the club and are disputing payment. Yes, some of the posts have been very personal to the son esp on the other place. And as you say had it been against Wail then you can just imagine ….. UTG! And remember it's all coming from the same person. No-one else that I'm aware of (on here). But he doesn't have an agenda. No siree. Jury is out with me on the new owners. I'm a bit old fashioned. Looking forward to looking at some evidence. What's "hidden in plain sight", I can't see from Essex. Just that the scouse mafia have left the building, a new stand has gone up, and there has been significant outlay on a defensive mid-fielder. |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Jan 27, 2024 12:48:56 GMT
What you dont do is bid an amount that releases the contract which makes it obvious that you know the release clause amount or the club will know that you know confidential information and that could open you up to a legal proceeding. For example, say Conteh contract release fee was £300k you wouldn't bid £300k or even £300,010. It's best to call it £350k and call it a generous offer. As in what the s**theads did with the scaly thing. Obvious they knew but I guess we decided not to pursue a claim against them. Perhaps we did learn something from the “watertight case” we had against Shamesbury I believe they went £30k over our release fee. |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Jan 27, 2024 12:55:47 GMT
You make some very valid points, but, No one get's banned for having an opinion. In my case that isnt possible. I cant speak for others obvs. Especially when I had assurances it would be done. |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Jan 27, 2024 12:56:55 GMT
Yes, some of the posts have been very personal to the son esp on the other place. And as you say had it been against Wail then you can just imagine ….. UTG! And remember it's all coming from the same person. No-one else that I'm aware of (on here). But he doesn't have an agenda. No siree. Jury is out with me on the new owners. I'm a bit old fashioned. Looking forward to looking at some evidence. What's "hidden in plain sight", I can't see from Essex. Just that the scouse mafia have left the building, a new stand has gone up, and there has been significant outlay on a defensive mid-fielder. If those other posters would post here as well then you would have more people saying it wouldnt you. A few more are saying the same on twitter too. |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Jan 27, 2024 13:04:28 GMT
It’s all a circular argument about he said/ he said/ he said from 3 posters who are all articulate, all determined to have their say and all feeling themselves to be correct. No idea who’s right really.but successive owners appear to be leaving a lot of questions unanswered which, ultimately, is likely to be bad news for BRFC, which is the only part of the argument that I really care about. Some very strong opinions, voiced articulately, but in the end opinions with a few facts. ( For example I believe ITB when he says he is owed money by the ASs. That’s poor and if ITB is owed how many more are?) As much as Dmac comes across as a bit of wide boy, you dont become as successful as he has without being a total idiot and he also runs a very tight ship at P'boro. His staff are loyal and work as a team. Liz Elsam is the Head of Football Operations and shes is articulate as they come. I'd love someone like that at Rovers. This is the podcast episode, its very good from all angles. |
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darloGas
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Post by darloGas on Jan 27, 2024 13:12:00 GMT
Yes, some of the posts have been very personal to the son esp on the other place. And as you say had it been against Wail then you can just imagine ….. UTG! And remember it's all coming from the same person. No-one else that I'm aware of (on here). But he doesn't have an agenda. No siree. Jury is out with me on the new owners. I'm a bit old fashioned. Looking forward to looking at some evidence. What's "hidden in plain sight", I can't see from Essex. Just that the scouse mafia have left the building, a new stand has gone up, and there has been significant outlay on a defensive mid-fielder. An interesting read, and who would have thought abuse could be levelled at Wael, eh, epping? (no reply needed, purely rhetorical) 😉 Still, let's hate all scousers, that should do the trick. #UpTheROVERS |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Jan 27, 2024 13:16:13 GMT
Agreed. I'm enjoying the debate. I agree again, but there other things that we should question, especially when it shows that the owners need to up their game. Agree that such behaviour is neither professional nor acceptable. That's not really how it works. Daily decision making now he has absolutely no control over. He may voice an opinion or be asked for advice but dont be surprised if his opinion would be listened to or advice asked for unless they really had no idea what they were doing. HAS is the Chairman and AAS l is the one in daily charge. If it was a legal issue then it would be decided by a court of law who was responisible or not. I dont think there has been a falling out, I definately think we would have heard about it if there was and I dont remember anything in the press where Wael has ever publicly ever hung anyone out to dry by naming and shaming them. For example, even when the SC fights were at their worst, I dont remember there being anything said in the press then? I may be wrong and please correct me if so. I agree with this. You have to question what due dilliengce was done prior to sale. Maybe well find out. It's also more important we find out now whos who on the board (There are 2 members no one has been introduced to let alone been told why they have been appointed or what they are doing here) and to get a management structure and football structure in place so we can move forward in a coherant way. |
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Post by swissgas on Jan 27, 2024 23:37:29 GMT
The horse you are flogging has expired ITB.
The spitefulness of the comments about Abdullatif has put a lot of fans off.
Criticism of the Al- Saeeds is justified but it’s got to be polite and constructive.
Wael spent seven years at the helm but he failed and had to be bailed out.
Trying to rewrite history won’t help Rovers.
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Post by irenestoyboy on Jan 28, 2024 10:02:38 GMT
The horse you are flogging has expired ITB. The spitefulness of the comments about Abdullatif has put a lot of fans off. Criticism of the Al- Saeeds is justified but it’s got to be polite and constructive. Wael spent seven years at the helm but he failed and had to be bailed out. Trying to rewrite history won’t help Rovers. What horse am I flogging? I thought you of all people should realise that structure is important to the football club for it to be run efficiently. We are lacking structure in many areas but are very top heavy in terms of board members. 2 of them we have no idea who they are let alone what they do and one of them, TG, we know who he is but no longer know what he's doing, even though every one has a fair idea of what may happen. An expose on a few things always makes for uncomfortable reading, just like your criticisms of Wael, which some had a point, and some of what you were writing appeared to be spiteful at times. However uncomfortable it may be though, whoever shines a light on them, whether that's me or you simply reveals the failures in the organisation which need correcting and we have a few big failures just 6 months in to this new ownership. It's nothing personal here. My comments about Abdullatif may appear unkind, but he does appear to be struggling and out of his depth currently. We often use those terms about football managers too, not because we're being spiteful, but because of failure of things he doesn't seem to be able to manage. I'm not sure what history you think I am trying to rewrite? I'm talking about the future. The tenure of Wael is, presently, over and it's the ALS now with their heads above the parapet, so to speak. |
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Jan 28, 2024 10:04:07 GMT
As in what the s**theads did with the scaly thing. Obvious they knew but I guess we decided not to pursue a claim against them. Perhaps we did learn something from the “watertight case” we had against Shamesbury I believe they went £30k over our release fee. The rumour I’d hesrd was that they offered the exact release clause to rub things in even more but who knows for sure? I certainly don’t…. |
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Post by swissgas on Jan 28, 2024 15:16:48 GMT
The horse you are flogging has expired ITB. The spitefulness of the comments about Abdullatif has put a lot of fans off. Criticism of the Al- Saeeds is justified but it’s got to be polite and constructive. Wael spent seven years at the helm but he failed and had to be bailed out. Trying to rewrite history won’t help Rovers. What horse am I flogging? I thought you of all people should realise that structure is important to the football club for it to be run efficiently. We are lacking structure in many areas but are very top heavy in terms of board members. 2 of them we have no idea who they are let alone what they do and one of them, TG, we know who he is but no longer know what he's doing, even though every one has a fair idea of what may happen. An expose on a few things always makes for uncomfortable reading, just like your criticisms of Wael, which some had a point, and some of what you were writing appeared to be spiteful at times. However uncomfortable it may be though, whoever shines a light on them, whether that's me or you simply reveals the failures in the organisation which need correcting and we have a few big failures just 6 months in to this new ownership. It's nothing personal here. My comments about Abdullatif may appear unkind, but he does appear to be struggling and out of his depth currently. We often use those terms about football managers too, not because we're being spiteful, but because of failure of things he doesn't seem to be able to manage. I'm not sure what history you think I am trying to rewrite? I'm talking about the future. The tenure of Wael is, presently, over and it's the ALS now with their heads above the parapet, so to speak. What on earth do you mean by “ the tenure of Wael is, presently, over and it’s the ALS now “ Is it over ? Or is he planning a comeback ? |
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Post by irenestoyboy on Jan 28, 2024 16:50:09 GMT
What horse am I flogging? I thought you of all people should realise that structure is important to the football club for it to be run efficiently. We are lacking structure in many areas but are very top heavy in terms of board members. 2 of them we have no idea who they are let alone what they do and one of them, TG, we know who he is but no longer know what he's doing, even though every one has a fair idea of what may happen. An expose on a few things always makes for uncomfortable reading, just like your criticisms of Wael, which some had a point, and some of what you were writing appeared to be spiteful at times. However uncomfortable it may be though, whoever shines a light on them, whether that's me or you simply reveals the failures in the organisation which need correcting and we have a few big failures just 6 months in to this new ownership. It's nothing personal here. My comments about Abdullatif may appear unkind, but he does appear to be struggling and out of his depth currently. We often use those terms about football managers too, not because we're being spiteful, but because of failure of things he doesn't seem to be able to manage. I'm not sure what history you think I am trying to rewrite? I'm talking about the future. The tenure of Wael is, presently, over and it's the ALS now with their heads above the parapet, so to speak. What on earth do you mean by “ the tenure of Wael is, presently, over and it’s the ALS now “ Is it over ? Or is he planning a comeback ? Not that I know of. Hes still a chunky shareholder though so if he ever felt like a come back tour only a small percentage purchase would be required wouldn't it. |
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Jan 28, 2024 16:52:30 GMT
What on earth do you mean by “ the tenure of Wael is, presently, over and it’s the ALS now “ Is it over ? Or is he planning a comeback ? Not that I know of. Hes still a chunky shareholder though so if he ever felt like a come back tour only a small percentage purchase would be required wouldn't it. Only if there was a willing seller and at the right price. Unless of course he has a buy back clause, or first option in the sale contract. |
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