trymer
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Post by trymer on Aug 21, 2024 14:48:27 GMT
The British Empire and Dominions raised a total of 8,586,000 men for military service More than 5,000,000 came from the British Isles 1,440,500 hailed from India, while 136,000 came from South Africa Of those who fought 629,000 were Canadians 413,000 came from Australia and 128,500 from New Zealand More than 134,000 travelled from other colonies, including some 10,000 from the Caribbean www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32703753.ampThe original figure that I saw was 10,000 but it said that most worked in factories or on the land, we now have a figure of 5500 in RAF (groundcrew except for 400 aircrew) none were in the Royal navy. |
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bluetornados
Predictions League
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Post by bluetornados on Aug 21, 2024 14:51:23 GMT
Father-of-three jailed for three years after attacking police van at Southport riot..by Jacqueline Howard and Nadia Ragozhinaichef.bbci.co.uk/ace/standard/1024/cpsprodpb/e057/live/b6a10360-5fcb-11ef-8c32-f3c2bc7494c6.jpgA father-of-three who left a police officer fearing for his life as he tried to smash a van window amid disorder has been jailed for three years. A judge has described the attack by the 38-year-old on a police vehicle with a piece of concrete "as bad a case as I have seen so far". Luke Moran, from Birkdale, was one of five people sentenced at Liverpool Crown Court on Wednesday for their part in violent disorder in Southport. The court was played body worn footage from a police officer that showed Moran hitting vehicles window three times with the chunk of concrete. Judge Neil Flewitt said that a police officer in the vehicle "feared for his life believing he might be pulled from the carrier and attacked". Thomas Birley, 27, from Rotherham, pleads guilty to arson with intent to endanger life, violent disorder and possession of an offensive weapon after a riot outside a hotel housing asylum seekers in Manvers on 4 August Former soldier Peter Beard, 43, from Brampton Bierlow is jailed for two-and-a-half years after admitting to pushing at a line of police with riot shields as they tried to protect the same hotel
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Post by baldrick on Aug 21, 2024 14:54:42 GMT
The British Empire and Dominions raised a total of 8,586,000 men for military service More than 5,000,000 came from the British Isles 1,440,500 hailed from India, while 136,000 came from South Africa Of those who fought 629,000 were Canadians 413,000 came from Australia and 128,500 from New Zealand More than 134,000 travelled from other colonies, including some 10,000 from the Caribbean www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32703753.ampThe original figure that I saw was 10,000 but it said that most worked in factories or on the land, we now have a figure of 5500 in RAF (groundcrew except for 400 aircrew) none were in the Royal navy. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
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Post by trymer on Aug 21, 2024 15:03:34 GMT
Not much help there,although the Windrush one does say that they were better off getting away from the West indies. The Royal historical society thinks that they were encouraged to join local naval units like the one in the picture and not travel to Britain. |
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Aug 21, 2024 15:47:24 GMT
At least we can all agree the Rastafarian Squadron won the Battle of Britain for us. Phew! No need for that. It's really not so bad. It does'nt mean I don't respect the Battle Of Britain players or the sacrifice of people from the Caribbean. Vandalising war memorials because you hate GB or are antisemitic eg,there's "no need for that" . |
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Post by baldrick on Aug 21, 2024 16:36:35 GMT
Not much help there,although the Windrush one does say that they were better off getting away from the West indies. The Royal historical society thinks that they were encouraged to join local naval units like the one in the picture and not travel to Britain. The first link confirmed service, the second as to why records are not readily available. "They were air crew for the RAF, fought for the British Army, and served onboard Royal Navy ships. This link between those who sailed onboard HMT Empire Windrush and their role in the Second World War makes it an important topic for the National Museum of the Royal Navy." "statistical data that records the numerical presence of British naval personnel from the Indian subcontinent and African diaspora in the Navy is notoriously difficult to trace in state records. This is a common challenge in writing the history of sailors of colour in the RN, as others before me have noted." At the end of the day though, it doesn't really matter how many or where. Many joined and served where they were told. |
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Post by baldrick on Aug 21, 2024 16:39:56 GMT
It's really not so bad. It does'nt mean I don't respect the Battle Of Britain players or the sacrifice of people from the Caribbean. Vandalising war memorials because you hate GB or are antisemitic eg,there's "no need for that" . It's daft, and it lowers the debate. No need. Agree with your last point. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,561
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Post by trymer on Aug 21, 2024 16:49:35 GMT
Not much help there,although the Windrush one does say that they were better off getting away from the West indies. The Royal historical society thinks that they were encouraged to join local naval units like the one in the picture and not travel to Britain. The first link confirmed service, the second as to why records are not readily available. "They were air crew for the RAF, fought for the British Army, and served onboard Royal Navy ships. This link between those who sailed onboard HMT Empire Windrush and their role in the Second World War makes it an important topic for the National Museum of the Royal Navy." "statistical data that records the numerical presence of British naval personnel from the Indian subcontinent and African diaspora in the Navy is notoriously difficult to trace in state records. This is a common challenge in writing the history of sailors of colour in the RN, as others before me have noted." At the end of the day though, it doesn't really matter how many or where. Many joined and served where they were told. I have read that no West Indians who came to Britain joined the Royal navy,thats why its interesting that some joined local Naval units. Well if you are'nt interested in history nothing matters if you do have an interest then it does,whats interesting is that 4 times as many people from the West Indies went to the USA to work as came here...i wonder if they were allowed to stay after the war ? |
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Post by baldrick on Aug 21, 2024 16:51:18 GMT
It's a conversation stopper, that's for sure. Well it has'nt stopped me Baldrick. I believe the following version... Over the years,the myths about the Windrush generation grew.Not so difficult to believe on checking some of Black History Month stories In the late 40s the good ship Windrush was picking up passengers as she sailed.Eg some Polish in Mexico apparently.The ship still had plenty of room for more passengers,a full ship of course equals more money So the shipping agency put an add up in a Caribbean paper.Ship going to GB,jobs waiting. The unemployment rate was pretty high in the Caribbean.So GB would of looked an attractive opportunity. As I said,the advert was placed by the shipping agency.They did not represent our Government. On arrival at Tilbury docks the uninvited just got off and that was that. Where's the evidence GB asked them to come? 1956 I think saw the first official adverts for Caribbean people to come and live in the UK.Our post WWII rebuilding was just about done by 56,was'nt it? So,not as legendary perhaps, but the people had spirit and no doubt met many difficulties. I don't think it takes so much away from their history. That's how I remember the version I believe. I think copies of the shipping agency advert exist. The Ministry of Labour preferred Europeans but didn't stop them coming. We needed labour yo rebuild and they wanted to come. What's the issue? 800 of the 1,027 were from the Caribbean. Your initial statement was regarding the Windrush generation, that was applied to more than those on board the Empire Windrush, in fact it wasn't even the first from the West Indies. |
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Aug 21, 2024 17:04:37 GMT
Well it has'nt stopped me Baldrick. I believe the following version... Over the years,the myths about the Windrush generation grew.Not so difficult to believe on checking some of Black History Month stories In the late 40s the good ship Windrush was picking up passengers as she sailed.Eg some Polish in Mexico apparently.The ship still had plenty of room for more passengers,a full ship of course equals more money So the shipping agency put an add up in a Caribbean paper.Ship going to GB,jobs waiting. The unemployment rate was pretty high in the Caribbean.So GB would of looked an attractive opportunity. As I said,the advert was placed by the shipping agency.They did not represent our Government. On arrival at Tilbury docks the uninvited just got off and that was that. Where's the evidence GB asked them to come? 1956 I think saw the first official adverts for Caribbean people to come and live in the UK.Our post WWII rebuilding was just about done by 56,was'nt it? So,not as legendary perhaps, but the people had spirit and no doubt met many difficulties. I don't think it takes so much away from their history. That's how I remember the version I believe. I think copies of the shipping agency advert exist. The Ministry of Labour preferred Europeans but didn't stop them coming. We needed labour yo rebuild and they wanted to come. What's the issue? 800 of the 1,027 were from the Caribbean. Your initial statement was regarding the Windrush generation, that was applied to more than those on board the Empire Windrush, in fact it wasn't even the first from the West Indies. The point is the Windrush people claim or have apparently gone along with the line 'they called and we came'.Britain asked us to come. I believe that not true. A shipping firm advertised a boat trip to UK,with opportunities. As unemployment was high in the Caribbean, it looked worth a go. Our Government did not beg them to come. They came as economical migrants and possibly illegal. They came for themselves,not to save England. The issue is one of historical accuracy. |
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aghast
David Williams
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Post by aghast on Aug 21, 2024 17:54:13 GMT
Why this rush to try and minimise the war contribution made by Caribbean people? What does it prove? What point is it trying to make?
Somebody said thousands served. Immediately there is an inquisition about exact numbers, roles, timelines, motives and opportunities, and the same for the Windrush generation, who came here believing they could better themselves by working in the UK. Digging up very old statements to prove they weren't asked to come but came because they were allowed to and wanted to work.
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
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Post by trymer on Aug 21, 2024 18:10:12 GMT
I mentioned the Indian legion earlier in the thread but Subhas Chandra Bose and his Indian army make interesting reading,basically they were fighting for the Japanese in Burma against British soldiers
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Post by baldrick on Aug 21, 2024 18:12:19 GMT
The Ministry of Labour preferred Europeans but didn't stop them coming. We needed labour yo rebuild and they wanted to come. What's the issue? 800 of the 1,027 were from the Caribbean. Your initial statement was regarding the Windrush generation, that was applied to more than those on board the Empire Windrush, in fact it wasn't even the first from the West Indies. The point is the Windrush people claim or have apparently gone along with the line 'they called and we came'.Britain asked us to come. I believe that not true. A shipping firm advertised a boat trip to UK,with opportunities. As unemployment was high in the Caribbean, it looked worth a go. Our Government did not beg them to come. They came as economical migrants and possibly illegal. They came for themselves,not to save England. The issue is one of historical accuracy. No, you are getting things mixed up. You yourself said the adverts were from the 1950s and the Windrush generation is more than one boat load. "Possibly illegal"? Sorry, Bas, but this is getting silly. Are you still listening to that YouTube amateur historian? |
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Post by baldrick on Aug 21, 2024 18:19:54 GMT
I mentioned the Indian legion earlier in the thread but Subhas Chandra Bose and his Indian army make interesting reading,basically they were fighting for the Japanese in Burma against British soldiers Don't forget their fellow Indians. Germany also established foreign units including the British Free Corps. |
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Post by baldrick on Aug 21, 2024 18:21:21 GMT
Why this rush to try and minimise the war contribution made by Caribbean people? What does it prove? What point is it trying to make? Somebody said thousands served. Immediately there is an inquisition about exact numbers, roles, timelines, motives and opportunities, and the same for the Windrush generation, who came here believing they could better themselves by working in the UK. Digging up very old statements to prove they weren't asked to come but came because they were allowed to and wanted to work. Makes you wonder, I'm not sure it proves anything unless there is a wish to minimise their service. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,561
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Post by trymer on Aug 21, 2024 18:21:59 GMT
I mentioned the Indian legion earlier in the thread but Subhas Chandra Bose and his Indian army make interesting reading,basically they were fighting for the Japanese in Burma against British soldiers Don't forget their fellow Indians. Germany also established foreign units including the British Free Corps. Yes,the Indian Legion that I mentioned earlier in the thread was recruited by Chandra Bose for the Germans,based in Netherlands and later in France. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
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Post by trymer on Aug 21, 2024 18:24:25 GMT
Why this rush to try and minimise the war contribution made by Caribbean people? What does it prove? What point is it trying to make? Somebody said thousands served. Immediately there is an inquisition about exact numbers, roles, timelines, motives and opportunities, and the same for the Windrush generation, who came here believing they could better themselves by working in the UK. Digging up very old statements to prove they weren't asked to come but came because they were allowed to and wanted to work. Makes you wonder, I'm not sure it proves anything unless there is a wish to minimise their service. Not at all,I said that I dont want to denigrate any of the people who were in fighting roles, but the actual numbers seem very low compared to what was claimed, I am just interested to find out the truth of the matter,why does that seem so disturbing ? |
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baselswh
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Post by baselswh on Aug 21, 2024 19:13:45 GMT
The point is the Windrush people claim or have apparently gone along with the line 'they called and we came'.Britain asked us to come. I believe that not true. A shipping firm advertised a boat trip to UK,with opportunities. As unemployment was high in the Caribbean, it looked worth a go. Our Government did not beg them to come. They came as economical migrants and possibly illegal. They came for themselves,not to save England. The issue is one of historical accuracy. No, you are getting things mixed up. You yourself said the adverts were from the 1950s and the Windrush generation is more than one boat load. "Possibly illegal"? Sorry, Bas, but this is getting silly. Are you still listening to that YouTube amateur historian? I think it might be you muddled up. I know my point was why the Windrush people came to England. I explained that. They arrived in 48,before the British Nationality Act actually started,so "possibly illegally".Hardly a big point I know. You've lost me Baldrick,maybe quote me,explain your understanding of it and then I can perhaps regain the groove. |
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Post by baldrick on Aug 21, 2024 19:43:14 GMT
No, you are getting things mixed up. You yourself said the adverts were from the 1950s and the Windrush generation is more than one boat load. "Possibly illegal"? Sorry, Bas, but this is getting silly. Are you still listening to that YouTube amateur historian? I think it might be you muddled up. I know my point was why the Windrush people came to England. I explained that. They arrived in 48,before the British Nationality Act actually started,so "possibly illegally".Hardly a big point I know. You've lost me Baldrick,maybe quote me,explain your understanding of it and then I can perhaps regain the groove. The Empire Windrush arrived in 1948, people from the Caribbean arrived before and afterwards, many of the latter when we passed the Nationality Act and when we did look for labour. The "Windrush generation" is the term you used, which is applied to those who came over after the war. You've applied it to just those on the ship itself. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,590
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Post by oldie on Aug 21, 2024 19:51:10 GMT
Merchant Seaman not brave enough? It was Total War', no need denigrate their memory by trying to differentiate between roles. That's my view. All a bit sick really |
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