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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 24, 2021 5:16:56 GMT
I'm not a supporter or non supporter, I'm pointing out facts. If JB can hit those stats with this squad we'll stay up. Looking less likely after tonight, admittedly.. The psychology of you Bartonista is a lesson we need to learn. he’s had one position, where despite Budget and time he failed. He has none of the personality traits that make a good manager, and many of the bad ones. How can anyone believe in him? Please one of you donate your brain to science so we can dissect it and find out what has gone wrong in there to be okay with this appointment. You may be right. You may be wrong. Only time will tell. I disagree he failed at his one previous appointment. It's tantamount to saying GC failed, which I think he didn't either. If JB can keep us up,and get us into play off position next season, I think most Gas would see that as a non failure. And, it's one better to appoint someone who's actually played professional football, and actually managed at a level we are contemporary in....a benchmark previously ignored by appointments of the past. His personal traits, yes he's outspoken, but like everyone, even you, there's good and bad. I'm still neutral about this appointment until JB can prove it's a good one. He hasn't yet. |
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Rex
Predictions League
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Post by Rex on Feb 24, 2021 6:28:33 GMT
To be fair to o2 he’s one of the more reasonable fellows behind Barton Rovers. Over on Gaschat it’s like a cult. It’s really interesting because people over there have for the most part been refusing to criticise Widdrington. If Barton fails to get a tune out of them they are going to turn on Widdrington like a pack of jackals because relegation will absolutely not be anything to do with the latest tactical mastermind in the dug out, it will be 100% the recruitment and the fault of every manager and club official up until the day Barton walked through the door. Nope. Anyone into Barton Fandom deserves to get straight talked till out of it if we are to get our rovers back. We need to be tough on this misplaced Fandom, because there is no intellectual or emotional justification for supporting this shallow, fraudulent twat of a man. So what makes Barton Fandom tick? What are the solutions to this current crisis at rovers? The solutions. If it was as simple as they share Bartons love and understanding of Nietzsche, then I can solve that with merely one or two posts on just this one forum. If they still think he has potential to be a good football manager despite failure at Fleetwood and his possessing zero positive managerial and leadership traits, it will take longer, but also easy to eventually get them to realise this is his last managerial post in football league before his bs is finally found out. If we are right, and he is a rubbish manager, we don’t have to do much, he will prove this to the world. If it’s generational thing, and they can plead young and immaturity then I will actually enjoy embarrassing them about it when they grow up. More serious if it’s lefty politics rallying around their man, like lefty politics rallied around Jeremy Corbyn (Barton did return to the Labour fold to stand up for Corbyn) this a juvenile emotional, almost evangelical attachment, not founded in anything intellectual, meaning it will just be difficult to reason with them. But we will get there. We will remove him, hopefully in time for a summer rebuild for L2. Getting rid of Wael I think is ultimately the bigger problem if we want our Rovers back. Are you okay? |
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basel
Joined: May 2014
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Post by basel on Feb 24, 2021 6:46:51 GMT
Just seen brief highlights.
On the road to Wigan peer pressure.
Athletics goals looked all too easy.Just get the ball chipped into areas where our CHs are supposed to defend and bide your time because Rovers defenders are not good enough.
Oh and we can't score either so our attackers are not good enough
Can't stop opposition scoring.
Can't score goals.
Who advised these players are good enough?
Tisdale could'nt get enough out of them and Bartons post game chat was worryingly similar to what Tisdale told us.
Time will tell if Joey can make these thoroughly disappointing players good enough to win the 25-ish points needed to stay up.He has told us he thinks he can coach Hanlan into a goal scorer,but it'll take time on the training field.He also pointed out time is precious right now.I suggest the coaches and player get some overtime in then.Create the time because Tisdale told us the same thing.As did the football genius Ben Garner.
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Post by mangogas15 on Feb 24, 2021 6:47:37 GMT
Gutted, the size of the task for Barton is evident and the problems wouldn't go away overnight. Give him time, a chance to build a winning mentality in this group. If we do go down, does he stay? I'm sure it's been discussed. If that's the masterplan then in what way are we better off than we were with Tisdale? At lease he has respect within the game and isn't prone to attacking people. If what's the plan? Just to lose to Wigan? When we played worse and lost to Rochdale and Accrington under Tisdale, I will never think we were better off under him. |
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Post by mangogas15 on Feb 24, 2021 6:52:06 GMT
Swiss I agree that a restructuring is/will be needed in the business when WAQ finally comes to the end of the line. Your last point for me is the most salient. His desire to stay is the main stumbling block and any approach will currently be rebuffed unless he remains. I have been part of a number of stalled and failed deals which did so not because the deals didn't stack up but because of egos. One brilliant deal that made real sense failed simply because the boards couldn't agree on the titles of the members of the new board. If anyone is serious about taking over the club they need to manage the ego of the man, his almost childlike attraction to the club and the world of football, and try to get him to listen to advice and sense. They also need to recognise the issues and be honest about the good and not so good parts of the club. At the moment it seems to be all or nothing. Recognise the issues and mitigate them. Look at alternatives to mainstream finance, fans alongside owners, the potential for fan bonds in addition to regular finance or quasi debt structures. Deals can be always be done but we need all sides to be open, honest and able to communicate, the first task is to get the owner to do the latter and to listen. Regards Swansea were fan owned when they got to the premiership. Okay, so that’s a very extreme example and subject to some unique factors, but it would be nice to see Bristol Rovers out of the exclusive hands of one man so we don’t always have to keep asking the question “how long is he going to fund us for?” “He can pick the manager because it’s his club and he can do what he wants” Swansea, Hull, Bournemouth and now maybe Brentford will always be the example of the teams who were in div 4 20 years ago and have risen to the prem. It always gives me hope. So not an extreme example by any means. |
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Post by mangogas15 on Feb 24, 2021 7:07:48 GMT
I don't think Barton will tear them off a strip. If he does that, he'll lose the team immediately. He doesn't know them yet and they don't know him. He needs to calmly assert: this defeat tonight either makes or breaks you. Which one is it? His post match interview was positive, sorry if anyone has covered this, naming certain players positively, the load of information that Kilgour, Harries and Grant have had to take on in 48 hrs to then perform the way did was superb. Hanlan is going to be encouraged by him saying what he said, he is going to show faith in him, he has taken on this role with no transfer window. I wake up this morning encouraged by his positivity. |
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syg
Joined: June 2014
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Post by syg on Feb 24, 2021 7:10:31 GMT
Nope. Anyone into Barton Fandom deserves to get straight talked till out of it if we are to get our rovers back. We need to be tough on this misplaced Fandom, because there is no intellectual or emotional justification for supporting this shallow, fraudulent twat of a man. So what makes Barton Fandom tick? What are the solutions to this current crisis at rovers? The solutions. If it was as simple as they share Bartons love and understanding of Nietzsche, then I can solve that with merely one or two posts on just this one forum. If they still think he has potential to be a good football manager despite failure at Fleetwood and his possessing zero positive managerial and leadership traits, it will take longer, but also easy to eventually get them to realise this is his last managerial post in football league before his bs is finally found out. If we are right, and he is a rubbish manager, we don’t have to do much, he will prove this to the world. If it’s generational thing, and they can plead young and immaturity then I will actually enjoy embarrassing them about it when they grow up. More serious if it’s lefty politics rallying around their man, like lefty politics rallied around Jeremy Corbyn (Barton did return to the Labour fold to stand up for Corbyn) this a juvenile emotional, almost evangelical attachment, not founded in anything intellectual, meaning it will just be difficult to reason with them. But we will get there. We will remove him, hopefully in time for a summer rebuild for L2. Getting rid of Wael I think is ultimately the bigger problem if we want our Rovers back. Are you okay? Barton a failure at Fleetwood? He was more successful than any Rovers boss has been in L1 this time around. A lot of this just comes down to celebrity culture and the age demographics between this site and gaschat. Anyway, I'm done until we go 2 unbeaten matches, I've enough on my plate and don't want to get in a bad state of mind over a sport. |
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 24, 2021 8:10:00 GMT
Just seen brief highlights. On the road to Wigan peer Nice. Top marks, b. Nice evaluation too.... absolutely no comment on your last sentence. |
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basel
Joined: May 2014
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Post by basel on Feb 24, 2021 9:03:55 GMT
Just seen brief highlights. On the road to Wigan peer Nice. Top marks, b. Nice evaluation too.... absolutely no comment on your last sentence. Thanks 0202b.I think you know there's an ounce or two of sarcasm in my final sentence.  |
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towngas
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Post by towngas on Feb 24, 2021 9:23:45 GMT
Well, that was a good start, wasn't it?
Ohhhh dear!
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Feb 24, 2021 9:40:18 GMT
Swiss ... If anyone is serious about taking over the club they need to manage the ego of the man, his almost childlike attraction to the club and the world of football, and try to get him to listen to advice and sense. They also need to recognise the issues and be honest about the good and not so good parts of the club. At the moment it seems to be all or nothing. Recognise the issues and mitigate them. Look at alternatives to mainstream finance, fans alongside owners, the potential for fan bonds in addition to regular finance or quasi debt structures. Deals can be always be done but we need all sides to be open, honest and able to communicate, the first task is to get the owner to do the latter and to listen. Over the years I’ve spoken to quite a few potential investors about Rovers and the three main things I’ve learned are : 1) They want control 2) They want their investment to go into developing a football club not to reward an owner who has failed 3) They want to buy a football club with a stadium not a development site And, with all due respect, how many of those deals have gone through? We know there are ideals in what people want to achieve but that doesn't necessarily mean they will get them. We are dealing with a reluctant vendor who needs to be enticed/encouraged to the table. Higgs was a reluctant vendor until the Sainsbury issue and having to raise exorbitant debt. In spite of your point 2) Higgs got his stake back and many of his acolytes still regard him as far better than WAQ. As I am sure you are aware to get a deal to go through you need to be able to understand the issues for both sides, understand what is at stake and reach a point where common ground can be found. Hope for the best, plan for the worst, know your baseline. Deals are about a level of compromise and all parties coming away feeling that they have got what they wanted in some form or other. Of course a purchaser won't want WAQ to stay but he will want to keep face and there may be ways and means of achieving that. And if purchasers want to get supporters on board there are ways of achieving that by supporter investment. The Gasheads have shown they will back the club with hard cash for a stake. As long as that is professionally managed and amateurs kept as far away as possible including the BRSC then I believe that would get good support. Regards |
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Post by The Concept on Feb 24, 2021 13:07:33 GMT
I ended up watching in the end last night. But it was a different, strange experience to normal.
Plugged into TV, sat on the sofa, and just watched.
All rather calm, not the usual anxiety, or stress, or shouting at the screen - just sat and watched.
Don't get me wrong: I don't want to see Rovers lose; I don't want to see Rovers relegated. Perhaps it's just a realisation that we probably will lose, that we may well get relegated, and there is nothing I can do about it.
I'm might not be happy with the appointment, but I can't not support them - no one can take my team away from me.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
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Joined: June 2014
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Post by eppinggas on Feb 24, 2021 14:15:29 GMT
Barton a failure at Fleetwood? He was more successful than any Rovers boss has been in L1 this time around. A lot of this just comes down to celebrity culture and the age demographics between this site and gaschat. Anyway, I'm done until we go 2 unbeaten matches, I've enough on my plate and don't want to get in a bad state of mind over a sport. By all accounts Barton had a decent budget at Fleetwood. They didn't make the play-offs. He did not succeed. Did he fail? Well, I guess the chairman there thinks so. Anyway - it will be a shame to lose you for potentially a prolonged period of time. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2021 14:46:20 GMT
I ended up watching in the end last night. But it was a different, strange experience to normal. Plugged into TV, sat on the sofa, and just watched. All rather calm, not the usual anxiety, or stress, or shouting at the screen - just sat and watched. Don't get me wrong: I don't want to see Rovers lose; I don't want to see Rovers relegated. Perhaps it's just a realisation that we probably will lose, that we may well get relegated, and there is nothing I can do about it. I'm might not be happy with the appointment, but I can't not support them - no one can take my team away from me. I’ll fess up that I am at that really ugly stage where I don’t see defeat last night as too bad for me personally. In order for me to selfishly get my connection with the club back I think relegation may have to happen because relegations usually affect change, avoiding relegation usually just papers over the cracks and delays the inevitable. The only problem is that Barton has a 2.5 year contract but with any luck if we get relegated he might walk away, Wael might reconsider how he runs the club and we might in a place to start over with some fresh ideas and we might end up with a more likeable club with a plan and a purpose. Staying up by the skin of our teeth will validate the recruitment, the season will be put down to a blip and Barton will be allowed to build Rovers in his vision, probably regardless of whether he gets sent down. I just don’t see Barton as a long term manager at this club and the bigger the investment in him the further it will set us back as there will be no funds left to pick up the pieces with. |
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Post by swissgas on Feb 24, 2021 15:09:23 GMT
Over the years I’ve spoken to quite a few potential investors about Rovers and the three main things I’ve learned are : 1) They want control 2) They want their investment to go into developing a football club not to reward an owner who has failed 3) They want to buy a football club with a stadium not a development site And, with all due respect, how many of those deals have gone through? We know there are ideals in what people want to achieve but that doesn't necessarily mean they will get them. We are dealing with a reluctant vendor who needs to be enticed/encouraged to the table. Higgs was a reluctant vendor until the Sainsbury issue and having to raise exorbitant debt. In spite of your point 2) Higgs got his stake back and many of his acolytes still regard him as far better than WAQ. As I am sure you are aware to get a deal to go through you need to be able to understand the issues for both sides, understand what is at stake and reach a point where common ground can be found. Hope for the best, plan for the worst, know your baseline. Deals are about a level of compromise and all parties coming away feeling that they have got what they wanted in some form or other. Of course a purchaser won't want WAQ to stay but he will want to keep face and there may be ways and means of achieving that. And if purchasers want to get supporters on board there are ways of achieving that by supporter investment. The Gasheads have shown they will back the club with hard cash for a stake. As long as that is professionally managed and amateurs kept as far away as possible including the BRSC then I believe that would get good support. Regards One deal certainly went through because a group I had been in close communication with decided to buy Real Mallorca instead of making an approach for Rovers as I had been trying to persuade them to do. And Nick Higgs and the other shareholders lost all the money they had capitalized because Dwane Sports only paid them for their outstanding loans and bonds. As far as I understand it the Fruit Market Plan did eventually involve a compromise allowing Wael to save face but this was also turned down. But this is the match day thread so perhaps the discussion should be on another thread "how do Rovers get out of this mess ?" so that those who are squeamish don't have to read it. |
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 24, 2021 16:38:02 GMT
I ended up watching in the end last night. But it was a different, strange experience to normal. Plugged into TV, sat on the sofa, and just watched. All rather calm, not the usual anxiety, or stress, or shouting at the screen - just sat and watched. Don't get me wrong: I don't want to see Rovers lose; I don't want to see Rovers relegated. Perhaps it's just a realisation that we probably will lose, that we may well get relegated, and there is nothing I can do about it. I'm might not be happy with the appointment, but I can't not support them - no one can take my team away from me. I’ll fess up that I am at that really ugly stage where I don’t see defeat last night as too bad for me personally. In order for me to selfishly get my connection with the club back I think relegation may have to happen because relegations usually affect change, avoiding relegation usually just papers over the cracks and delays the inevitable. The only problem is that Barton has a 2.5 year contract but with any luck if we get relegated he might walk away, Wael might reconsider how he runs the club and we might in a place to start over with some fresh ideas and we might end up with a more likeable club with a plan and a purpose. Staying up by the skin of our teeth will validate the recruitment, the season will be put down to a blip and Barton will be allowed to build Rovers in his vision, probably regardless of whether he gets sent down. I just don’t see Barton as a long term manager at this club and the bigger the investment in him the further it will set us back as there will be no funds left to pick up the pieces with. Or, conversely, if we go on a 17 game winning run, we'll be saved and some bigger fish may come swooping with offers? Like, Leeds for DC? (Stop laughing!).. |
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Post by a more piratey game on Feb 24, 2021 16:44:17 GMT
And, with all due respect, how many of those deals have gone through? We know there are ideals in what people want to achieve but that doesn't necessarily mean they will get them. We are dealing with a reluctant vendor who needs to be enticed/encouraged to the table. Higgs was a reluctant vendor until the Sainsbury issue and having to raise exorbitant debt. In spite of your point 2) Higgs got his stake back and many of his acolytes still regard him as far better than WAQ. As I am sure you are aware to get a deal to go through you need to be able to understand the issues for both sides, understand what is at stake and reach a point where common ground can be found. Hope for the best, plan for the worst, know your baseline. Deals are about a level of compromise and all parties coming away feeling that they have got what they wanted in some form or other. Of course a purchaser won't want WAQ to stay but he will want to keep face and there may be ways and means of achieving that. And if purchasers want to get supporters on board there are ways of achieving that by supporter investment. The Gasheads have shown they will back the club with hard cash for a stake. As long as that is professionally managed and amateurs kept as far away as possible including the BRSC then I believe that would get good support. Regards One deal certainly went through because a group I had been in close communication with decided to buy Real Mallorca instead of making an approach for Rovers as I had been trying to persuade them to do. And Nick Higgs and the other shareholders lost all the money they had capitalized because Dwane Sports only paid them for their outstanding loans and bonds. As far as I understand it the Fruit Market Plan did eventually involve a compromise allowing Wael to save face but this was also turned down. ooh, that's interesting I thought the Fruit Market was just on Covid-hold though. Did I miss something? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2021 16:48:24 GMT
I’ll fess up that I am at that really ugly stage where I don’t see defeat last night as too bad for me personally. In order for me to selfishly get my connection with the club back I think relegation may have to happen because relegations usually affect change, avoiding relegation usually just papers over the cracks and delays the inevitable. The only problem is that Barton has a 2.5 year contract but with any luck if we get relegated he might walk away, Wael might reconsider how he runs the club and we might in a place to start over with some fresh ideas and we might end up with a more likeable club with a plan and a purpose. Staying up by the skin of our teeth will validate the recruitment, the season will be put down to a blip and Barton will be allowed to build Rovers in his vision, probably regardless of whether he gets sent down. I just don’t see Barton as a long term manager at this club and the bigger the investment in him the further it will set us back as there will be no funds left to pick up the pieces with. Or, conversely, if we go on a 17 game winning run, we'll be saved and some bigger fish may come swooping with offers? Like, Leeds for DC? (Stop laughing!).. It’s a nice thought but it’s hard to see. He should be head hunted for the England job if he manages 17 wins with this lot! As much as I think Barton is short termism at it’s finest and that his record at one previous club and roughly ~100 games in charge does not indicate much about his chances for success at Rovers surely ~9 league wins since mid December 2019 under 3 managers suggests that the problems at Rovers run a lot deeper than the manager. It’s now rot, imo. There is rot at the heart of this club. |
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Post by a more piratey game on Feb 24, 2021 16:49:44 GMT
This is a momentous issue which will have to be tackled at some point. I think Cheshire will agree that with the cost base we have (nearly £10 million pa in the 2019 accounts) a formal restructuring would be the only solution because no one will take on a business with our level of overheads. But, whereas most owners would be happy to be free of the burden and let someone else sort it out through a formal restructuring, Wael has made his position clear so any restructuring won't be straightforward.... ....The charge over the Mem and Wael's strong desire to keep hold of Rovers at seemingly any cost will severely limit the options available. Swiss I agree that a restructuring is/will be needed in the business when WAQ finally comes to the end of the line. Your last point for me is the most salient. His desire to stay is the main stumbling block and any approach will currently be rebuffed unless he remains. I have been part of a number of stalled and failed deals which did so not because the deals didn't stack up but because of egos. One brilliant deal that made real sense failed simply because the boards couldn't agree on the titles of the members of the new board. If anyone is serious about taking over the club they need to manage the ego of the man, his almost childlike attraction to the club and the world of football, and try to get him to listen to advice and sense. They also need to recognise the issues and be honest about the good and not so good parts of the club. At the moment it seems to be all or nothing. Recognise the issues and mitigate them. Look at alternatives to mainstream finance, fans alongside owners, the potential for fan bonds in addition to regular finance or quasi debt structures. Deals can be always be done but we need all sides to be open, honest and able to communicate, the first task is to get the owner to do the latter and to listen. Regards Chesh, that's Day 1 at M&A broking school stuff, as I suspect you know very well already what my be more germane, IMO, is a perception of how compromises might be approach in respect of BRFC |
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Feb 24, 2021 17:00:19 GMT
Or, conversely, if we go on a 17 game winning run, we'll be saved and some bigger fish may come swooping with offers? Like, Leeds for DC? (Stop laughing!).. It’s a nice thought but it’s hard to see. He should be head hunted for the England job if he manages 17 wins with this lot! As much as I think Barton is short termism at it’s finest and that his record at one previous club and roughly ~100 games in charge does not indicate much about his chances for success at Rovers surely ~9 league wins since mid December 2019 under 3 managers suggests that the problems at Rovers run a lot deeper than the manager. It’s now rot, imo. There is rot at the heart of this club. There has been managerial instability before.....post Trolls we had, not necessarily in chronological order: Campbell - Patterson - Penny - Buckle - McGhee - Ward - all within 2/3 seasons, before settling on DC (and that took some convincing for some) so my point is it's not necessarily a reflection of rot at the core of the club....it may very well be, but one doesn't necessitate the other. Was there a rot at the core of Higgs & Co? Hmmm.... |
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