oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 6,714
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Post by oldie on May 10, 2023 18:09:58 GMT
Looking forward to it. Just adds to what's I feel is a transformed match day experience over the last couple of years. All for the better. As far as the financing is concerned I guess, with last year's losses of over £3 million, that Wael would have underwritten this, the fact that reports said he personally signed the agreement rather underlines that. I find some of the financial projections made on this thread a bit heroic, especially against the backdrop of the cash burn already occuring. But he has guaranteed it (it seems) so "so what".
Personally I still get an "itch" about having the club subject to the whims of one man. But there is no alternative now...so that's it.
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Post by Bath Gas on May 10, 2023 19:06:44 GMT
Looking forward to it. Just adds to what's I feel is a transformed match day experience over the last couple of years. All for the better. As far as the financing is concerned I guess, with last year's losses of over £3 million, that Wael would have underwritten this, the fact that reports said he personally signed the agreement rather underlines that. I find some of the financial projections made on this thread a bit heroic, especially against the backdrop of the cash burn already occuring. But he has guaranteed it (it seems) so "so what". Personally I still get an "itch" about having the club subject to the whims of one man. But there is no alternative now...so that's it. I noticed that the latest accounts also have Wael's name as guaranteeing the finance for the next 12 months (corrected at last!). I get what you mean about the "one man" situation, although I am thankful that we've avoided people like the guy who is selling Yeovil down the river.
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Post by sodburygas on May 10, 2023 19:14:58 GMT
No they are supporting pillars for the stand that run entire length of stand. Floodlights were added at a later date. So it's exactly what Rovers have proposed, so would you accept that Blackpool stand is not a better plan as you originally said? I didn't know that. Their stand was constructed in a hurry and out of necessity 13 years ago when Blackpool were promoted to the Premier League and planning permission was already in place. So the plan made sense for them whereas I'm not sure Rovers current plan does make sense because it is so rushed and IMO not enough forethought has been given to it. If more time was taken over this we could find a better design than the one shown in the drawing and one without pillars which would run the whole width of the pitch and be more aesthetically pleasing. Something which could remain in place and if necessary be added to with a matching design in the future. I can't see the reason for rushing into this can you ? Rovers need increase in capacity as have sold out to home fans on several occasions and to away fans on lots of occasions. Would love a much better stand than the one proposed but it's only a temporary stand as hopefully we will have a ground to be proud of at the fruit market. We have no need for a stand to remain in place for the future if we plan to get a new ground that would be a waste of money.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 6,714
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Post by oldie on May 10, 2023 19:44:01 GMT
Looking forward to it. Just adds to what's I feel is a transformed match day experience over the last couple of years. All for the better. As far as the financing is concerned I guess, with last year's losses of over £3 million, that Wael would have underwritten this, the fact that reports said he personally signed the agreement rather underlines that. I find some of the financial projections made on this thread a bit heroic, especially against the backdrop of the cash burn already occuring. But he has guaranteed it (it seems) so "so what". Personally I still get an "itch" about having the club subject to the whims of one man. But there is no alternative now...so that's it. I noticed that the latest accounts also have Wael's name as guaranteeing the finance for the next 12 months (corrected at last!). I get what you mean about the "one man" situation, although I am thankful that we've avoided people like the guy who is selling Yeovil down the river. Yes absolutely. Qualifying the accounts by shareholder guarantees is not unusual when a business makes large losses (relative to turnover). I agree about Wael, but who knows what his game plan is. Nothing we can do but enjoy the ride, which I certainly have when visiting the Mem this past season.
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bondigas
Joined: December 2017
Posts: 393
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Post by bondigas on May 10, 2023 20:32:25 GMT
What the most recent accounts say about a going concern are the following. The company relies on the continued support of the Al Qadi family for its day to day funding and funds it's working capital through a facility provided by Dwane Sports Ltd a company owned by the Al Qadi family that is not repayable within twelve months from these accounts. Mr W Al Qadi has confirmed his intention to maintain support for a period of at least twelve months from the signing of these accounts. On reading this it certainly appears that that the family are still very much involved and Wael is the guy who will carry the can if anything goes wrong on behalf of Dwane Sports Ltd. Perhaps the family didn't approve of the new temp stand and that's why Wael has had to put his name against a high interest loan from Nationwide Finance with a charge strapped on it for good measure against the Mem.
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Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,920
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Post by Peter Parker on May 11, 2023 4:46:47 GMT
What the most recent accounts say about a going concern are the following. The company relies on the continued support of the Al Qadi family for its day to day funding and funds it's working capital through a facility provided by Dwane Sports Ltd a company owned by the Al Qadi family that is not repayable within twelve months from these accounts. Mr W Al Qadi has confirmed his intention to maintain support for a period of at least twelve months from the signing of these accounts. On reading this it certainly appears that that the family are still very much involved and Wael is the guy who will carry the can if anything goes wrong on behalf of Dwane Sports Ltd. Perhaps the family didn't approve of the new temp stand and that's why Wael has had to put his name against a high interest loan from Nationwide Finance with a charge strapped on it for good measure against the Mem. I probably wouldnt read to much into the 'Al-Qadi family' bit. I expect much of the layout of the accounts is copy and paste, with updated numbers and directors statements
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bondigas
Joined: December 2017
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Post by bondigas on May 11, 2023 7:27:19 GMT
If true doesn't that indicate the accounts have been filed incorrectly and are misleading ? Surely the mistake should be corrected and the accounts resubmitted ?
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 6,714
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Post by oldie on May 11, 2023 8:44:02 GMT
If true doesn't that indicate the accounts have been filed incorrectly and are misleading ? Surely the mistake should be corrected and the accounts resubmitted ? Not at all.
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Post by swissgas on May 11, 2023 15:53:31 GMT
I didn't know that. Their stand was constructed in a hurry and out of necessity 13 years ago when Blackpool were promoted to the Premier League and planning permission was already in place. So the plan made sense for them whereas I'm not sure Rovers current plan does make sense because it is so rushed and IMO not enough forethought has been given to it. If more time was taken over this we could find a better design than the one shown in the drawing and one without pillars which would run the whole width of the pitch and be more aesthetically pleasing. Something which could remain in place and if necessary be added to with a matching design in the future. I can't see the reason for rushing into this can you ? Rovers need increase in capacity as have sold out to home fans on several occasions and to away fans on lots of occasions. Would love a much better stand than the one proposed but it's only a temporary stand as hopefully we will have a ground to be proud of at the fruit market. We have no need for a stand to remain in place for the future if we plan to get a new ground that would be a waste of money. That's a reasoned response but I'm wondering what would have happened if the announcement from the club at the end of January had been a little different. For instance if they had said they were looking at a new South Stand to bridge the gap between now and the FM stadium being ready but one which would provide some insurance for the future if the FM project was delayed or didn't materialise. A semi permanent structure running the whole width of the South end and wrapping around both corners with all mains services included. There would be a concourse area and the club would consult with fans about the facilities which this could provide. Likewise detailed consultations would be held with the planners and, if necessary, local residents to decide what would and wouldn't be possible within the development. The process would take place over the coming months with a planning application expected to be made during the Summer and construction scheduled for May 2024 with the stand safety tested at pre-season games in July ready for opening at the start of the 24/25 season. I think most Gasheads would have considered that to be a very sensible plan. And if some maverick poster on the forums had then criticised the plan and said we needed to act sooner and do something immediately so as not to waste the opportunity for extra revenue in the 23/24 season I think the reaction could be predicted. Most fans would have responded with indignation and told him it was crazy to rush into something half cock knowing deadlines were unlikely to be met, that there would be insufficient time to negotiate beneficial sponsorship and financing deals, that we faced potential conflict with the planning department and neighbours and especially when in a best case scenario we would end up with something which was better than the current South Stand but greatly inferior to what could be constructed if time and proper planning were put into the project. But, I admit, it's a funny old game.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 6,714
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Post by oldie on May 11, 2023 16:11:21 GMT
Rovers need increase in capacity as have sold out to home fans on several occasions and to away fans on lots of occasions. Would love a much better stand than the one proposed but it's only a temporary stand as hopefully we will have a ground to be proud of at the fruit market. We have no need for a stand to remain in place for the future if we plan to get a new ground that would be a waste of money. That's a reasoned response but I'm wondering what would have happened if the announcement from the club at the end of January had been a little different. For instance if they had said they were looking at a new South Stand to bridge the gap between now and the FM stadium being ready but one which would provide some insurance for the future if the FM project was delayed or didn't materialise. A semi permanent structure running the whole width of the South end and wrapping around both corners with all mains services included. There would be a concourse area and the club would consult with fans about the facilities which this could provide. Likewise detailed consultations would be held with the planners and, if necessary, local residents to decide what would and wouldn't be possible within the development. The process would take place over the coming months with a planning application expected to be made during the Summer and construction scheduled for May 2024 with the stand safety tested at pre-season games in July ready for opening at the start of the 24/25 season. I think most Gasheads would have considered that to be a very sensible plan. And if some maverick poster on the forums had then criticised the plan and said we needed to act sooner and do something immediately so as not to waste the opportunity for extra revenue in the 23/24 season I think the reaction could be predicted. Most fans would have responded with indignation and told him it was crazy to rush into something half cock knowing deadlines were unlikely to be met, that there would be insufficient time to negotiate beneficial sponsorship and financing deals, that we faced potential conflict with the planning department and neighbours and especially when in a best case scenario we would end up with something which was better than the current South Stand but greatly inferior to what could be constructed if time and proper planning were put into the project. But, I admit, it's a funny old game. True Swiss. But best laid plans and all that. Who knows what the sentiment was at the end of December 2022 when things were looking pretty good in the league table. I can absolutely believe that Barton may have said we could have made the playoffs at board meetings which would have swayed focus onto playing budget away from asset improvement. Not saying that any of that actually happened but just balancing speculative thoughts.
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Post by One F in Dunford on May 11, 2023 16:14:26 GMT
If true doesn't that indicate the accounts have been filed incorrectly and are misleading ? Surely the mistake should be corrected and the accounts resubmitted ? Is this as true as when you said that the accounts had been filed late?
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on May 11, 2023 16:40:35 GMT
Looking forward to it. Just adds to what's I feel is a transformed match day experience over the last couple of years. All for the better. As far as the financing is concerned I guess, with last year's losses of over £3 million, that Wael would have underwritten this, the fact that reports said he personally signed the agreement rather underlines that. I find some of the financial projections made on this thread a bit heroic, especially against the backdrop of the cash burn already occuring. But he has guaranteed it (it seems) so "so what". Personally I still get an "itch" about having the club subject to the whims of one man. But there is no alternative now...so that's it. I noticed that the latest accounts also have Wael's name as guaranteeing the finance for the next 12 months (corrected at last!). I get what you mean about the "one man" situation, although I am thankful that we've avoided people like the guy who is selling Yeovil down the river. We don’t know for sure that we have avoided a Yeovil situation and won’t until such time as either new ground is delivered or the owner cashes out to recoup his losses. In the meantime all we can do is hope we get the former. I wouldn’t be making any claims either way till then ……
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Post by swissgas on May 11, 2023 16:59:07 GMT
That's a reasoned response but I'm wondering what would have happened if the announcement from the club at the end of January had been a little different. For instance if they had said they were looking at a new South Stand to bridge the gap between now and the FM stadium being ready but one which would provide some insurance for the future if the FM project was delayed or didn't materialise. A semi permanent structure running the whole width of the South end and wrapping around both corners with all mains services included. There would be a concourse area and the club would consult with fans about the facilities which this could provide. Likewise detailed consultations would be held with the planners and, if necessary, local residents to decide what would and wouldn't be possible within the development. The process would take place over the coming months with a planning application expected to be made during the Summer and construction scheduled for May 2024 with the stand safety tested at pre-season games in July ready for opening at the start of the 24/25 season. I think most Gasheads would have considered that to be a very sensible plan. And if some maverick poster on the forums had then criticised the plan and said we needed to act sooner and do something immediately so as not to waste the opportunity for extra revenue in the 23/24 season I think the reaction could be predicted. Most fans would have responded with indignation and told him it was crazy to rush into something half cock knowing deadlines were unlikely to be met, that there would be insufficient time to negotiate beneficial sponsorship and financing deals, that we faced potential conflict with the planning department and neighbours and especially when in a best case scenario we would end up with something which was better than the current South Stand but greatly inferior to what could be constructed if time and proper planning were put into the project. But, I admit, it's a funny old game. True Swiss. But best laid plans and all that. Who knows what the sentiment was at the end of December 2022 when things were looking pretty good in the league table. I can absolutely believe that Barton may have said we could have made the playoffs at board meetings which would have swayed focus onto playing budget away from asset improvement. Not saying that any of that actually happened but just balancing speculative thoughts. And you're steering this back on topic. From a football fan's perspective I can understand the enthusiasm JB creates (people are talking Bas !) and of course Wael is a very big football fan as well. But to meet the challenge Rovers face I think we need to curb the enthusiasm a bit and run the business on sounder principles. Until we upgrade our infrastructure properly we'll always be reliant on owner financing just to maintain the status quo and with no way of realising the potential which having a big fanbase brings. We should learn from what happened at Fleetwood. I think their previous manager had persuaded the owner that a large playing budget would bring success and although he got them to the play off's he could go no further and was eventually sacked. JB came in after convincing the owner he could do more with that large budget but in reality he didn't. He got Fleetwood to the play off's as the previous manager had done but then they regressed and the following season the owners strategy changed after he realised the high spending wasn't working. I've read a newspaper article from that time quoting JB as saying "we nearly got there last time, just a bit more invested and we'll get there soon" which is close to what he's saying now although from 17th place in the table that doesn't sound very credible. In JB's last full season at Fleetwood 19/20 their losses were £ 4.8 million but by 21/22 this had reduced to £ 1.6 million including a player sale of £ 1.2 million. The 2022 strategic report talks of them having 17 graduates of their Academy appearing in the first team that season, of their Academy being upgraded to category 2 this year and of having a new indoor training pitch with gymnasium in the course of construction. Fleetwood finished 20th in 21/22 but this season improved to 13th which shows reducing costs doesn't necessarily mean relegation. Their problem is that they have a tiny potential fanbase compared to Rovers but in every other respect they are outperforming us.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 6,714
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Post by oldie on May 11, 2023 18:35:34 GMT
True Swiss. But best laid plans and all that. Who knows what the sentiment was at the end of December 2022 when things were looking pretty good in the league table. I can absolutely believe that Barton may have said we could have made the playoffs at board meetings which would have swayed focus onto playing budget away from asset improvement. Not saying that any of that actually happened but just balancing speculative thoughts. And you're steering this back on topic. From a football fan's perspective I can understand the enthusiasm JB creates (people are talking Bas !) and of course Wael is a very big football fan as well. But to meet the challenge Rovers face I think we need to curb the enthusiasm a bit and run the business on sounder principles. Until we upgrade our infrastructure properly we'll always be reliant on owner financing just to maintain the status quo and with no way of realising the potential which having a big fanbase brings. We should learn from what happened at Fleetwood. I think their previous manager had persuaded the owner that a large playing budget would bring success and although he got them to the play off's he could go no further and was eventually sacked. JB came in after convincing the owner he could do more with that large budget but in reality he didn't. He got Fleetwood to the play off's as the previous manager had done but then they regressed and the following season the owners strategy changed after he realised the high spending wasn't working. I've read a newspaper article from that time quoting JB as saying "we nearly got there last time, just a bit more invested and we'll get there soon" which is close to what he's saying now although from 17th place in the table that doesn't sound very credible. In JB's last full season at Fleetwood 19/20 their losses were £ 4.8 million but by 21/22 this had reduced to £ 1.6 million including a player sale of £ 1.2 million. The 2022 strategic report talks of them having 17 graduates of their Academy appearing in the first team that season, of their Academy being upgraded to category 2 this year and of having a new indoor training pitch with gymnasium in the course of construction. Fleetwood finished 20th in 21/22 but this season improved to 13th which shows reducing costs doesn't necessarily mean relegation. Their problem is that they have a tiny potential fanbase compared to Rovers but in every other respect they are outperforming us. On that analysis I completely agree with you. I have a nagging suspicion that Barton is a class A bullshi**er who shouts loudest to quell the noise of any criticism. The fan in me wants those thoughts to be wrong, I would of course love it if he gets us to the championship but as you say, after 2 and a bit seasons we start that challenge from 17th. With an unbalanced squad, one beset with long term injuries and key players who are under contract to other clubs. And, the club is losing over £3M a year. I suspect we will find out next season
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Post by Bath Gas on May 11, 2023 20:09:04 GMT
I noticed that the latest accounts also have Wael's name as guaranteeing the finance for the next 12 months (corrected at last!). I get what you mean about the "one man" situation, although I am thankful that we've avoided people like the guy who is selling Yeovil down the river. We don’t know for sure that we have avoided a Yeovil situation and won’t until such time as either new ground is delivered or the owner cashes out to recoup his losses. In the meantime all we can do is hope we get the former. I wouldn’t be making any claims either way till then …… I guess the same could be said of a lot of clubs - who knows what may happen in the future, things can change quickly in the world of finance. It seems that the "wrong uns" don't take long to show their true colours, we've had Wael at the club for 7 years - if the new ground isn't delivered I wouldn't class that as Wael selling us down the river.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2023 20:13:55 GMT
We don’t know for sure that we have avoided a Yeovil situation and won’t until such time as either new ground is delivered or the owner cashes out to recoup his losses. In the meantime all we can do is hope we get the former. I wouldn’t be making any claims either way till then …… I guess the same could be said of a lot of clubs - who knows what may happen in the future, things can change quickly in the world of finance. It seems that the "wrong uns" don't take long to show their true colours, we've had Wael at the club for 7 years - if the new ground isn't delivered I wouldn't class that as Wael selling us down the river. My main criticism of WAQ is the stagnation. The stadium at best is what, 5 years off? We certainly wouldn’t be taking out a loan for a new stand if it just round the corner. Asking why the South Stand hasn’t been replaced for increased revenue in the previous seven years is also a fair question. I don’t think he’s been terrible but, he’s certainly not achieved much at all…
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Post by Bath Gas on May 11, 2023 21:21:44 GMT
I guess the same could be said of a lot of clubs - who knows what may happen in the future, things can change quickly in the world of finance. It seems that the "wrong uns" don't take long to show their true colours, we've had Wael at the club for 7 years - if the new ground isn't delivered I wouldn't class that as Wael selling us down the river. My main criticism of WAQ is the stagnation. The stadium at best is what, 5 years off? We certainly wouldn’t be taking out a loan for a new stand if it just round the corner. Asking why the South Stand hasn’t been replaced for increased revenue in the previous seven years is also a fair question. I don’t think he’s been terrible but, he’s certainly not achieved much at all… I don't think that we've particularly needed an increased capacity in the previous seven years. With some big name clubs in League One again, and more home fans being lured in by the (usually) attractive football being played, the situation has now changed.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 6,714
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Post by oldie on May 11, 2023 21:35:14 GMT
My main criticism of WAQ is the stagnation. The stadium at best is what, 5 years off? We certainly wouldn’t be taking out a loan for a new stand if it just round the corner. Asking why the South Stand hasn’t been replaced for increased revenue in the previous seven years is also a fair question. I don’t think he’s been terrible but, he’s certainly not achieved much at all… I don't think that we've particularly needed an increased capacity in the previous seven years. With some big name clubs in League One again, and more home fans being lured in by the (usually) attractive football being played, the situation has now changed. I would add the Mem is far better place to visit compared 3 or 4 years ago. The inside bar revamp, the fans zone etc make it a very decent day out. The footie itself has been pretty crap since Christmas, we have hardly won a game, or hardly scored for that matter. But the attendances have held up.
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womble
Arthur Cartlidge
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 300
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Post by womble on May 11, 2023 21:56:25 GMT
Rovers need increase in capacity as have sold out to home fans on several occasions and to away fans on lots of occasions. Would love a much better stand than the one proposed but it's only a temporary stand as hopefully we will have a ground to be proud of at the fruit market. We have no need for a stand to remain in place for the future if we plan to get a new ground that would be a waste of money. That's a reasoned response but I'm wondering what would have happened if the announcement from the club at the end of January had been a little different. For instance if they had said they were looking at a new South Stand to bridge the gap between now and the FM stadium being ready but one which would provide some insurance for the future if the FM project was delayed or didn't materialise. A semi permanent structure running the whole width of the South end and wrapping around both corners with all mains services included. There would be a concourse area and the club would consult with fans about the facilities which this could provide. Likewise detailed consultations would be held with the planners and, if necessary, local residents to decide what would and wouldn't be possible within the development. The process would take place over the coming months with a planning application expected to be made during the Summer and construction scheduled for May 2024 with the stand safety tested at pre-season games in July ready for opening at the start of the 24/25 season. I think most Gasheads would have considered that to be a very sensible plan. And if some maverick poster on the forums had then criticised the plan and said we needed to act sooner and do something immediately so as not to waste the opportunity for extra revenue in the 23/24 season I think the reaction could be predicted. Most fans would have responded with indignation and told him it was crazy to rush into something half cock knowing deadlines were unlikely to be met, that there would be insufficient time to negotiate beneficial sponsorship and financing deals, that we faced potential conflict with the planning department and neighbours and especially when in a best case scenario we would end up with something which was better than the current South Stand but greatly inferior to what could be constructed if time and proper planning were put into the project. But, I admit, it's a funny old game. At the risk of seeming to be nit-picking Swiss, I don’t think you can wrap the South Stand around both corners because any roofed seating behind the east terrace, blocks sight lines from the Centenary Stand seating.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2023 22:13:21 GMT
My main criticism of WAQ is the stagnation. The stadium at best is what, 5 years off? We certainly wouldn’t be taking out a loan for a new stand if it just round the corner. Asking why the South Stand hasn’t been replaced for increased revenue in the previous seven years is also a fair question. I don’t think he’s been terrible but, he’s certainly not achieved much at all… I don't think that we've particularly needed an increased capacity in the previous seven years. With some big name clubs in League One again, and more home fans being lured in by the (usually) attractive football being played, the situation has now changed. Pointless building anything in that case.
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