Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 14:51:42 GMT
You think that sustained increased losses sat behind increased turnover is good. OK, if you say so. There's a difference between a business plan (1) and an Excel spread sheet. The former comes with a method to deliver. You have no idea what mechanism either the previous board may have chosen collectively or Wael individually may employ should he elect to attempt to recoup his investment, so have zero basis on which to claim that the club is any more or less secure than it previously was (2). But what we do now know is that there's a charge on the stadium. Ref the MSP Capital loan, as I've said at least 10 times on this forum, my reading of that situation is that Higgs personally was well placed to fund that legal action and the loan was a tactic designed to put pressure on Sainsbury's (3). It failed. But we agree that pursuing the court case was silly at best. (1) I am disappointed that Dave (gasandproud) didn't let us know how their proposal was presented. Was it a business plan, excel spreadsheet or an email saying let's have a chat about x, y and z..... I'm also disappointed that like others before him he is now seeking to withdraw leaving a load of unanswered questions. (2) We are more secure as we are in the midst of a pandemic, losing money hand over fist and yet our owner has said he will see us through and continues to invest in the training ground. He could quite easily call it a day, sell the ground and walk away if he didn't care. He is no way perfect and warrants criticism but I don't see anyone else dipping their hands in their pockets other than the fans paying for STs, kit and ifollow.... (3) If you genuinely believe that then good for you but, if true, that is absolutely naïve and it would have been bloody expensive to the club just to try to manipulate or blackmail a company like Sainsbury which, as anyone sensible person in business would have been able to tell you was a waste of time. Sainsbury have a huge property portfolio and experienced personnel and professionals working for them. They wouldn't give a sh*t about what a small football club were doing threatening to go out of business because of a 'water tight' broken contract. 1. Agreed. 2. I'm not aware of any professional football clubs who in England who have shut up shop since the pandemic started, so nothing unusual or particularly heroic there. 3. It's all guesswork. You can't trust rumours, almost all of them are untrue, but there was one went went along the lines of Higgs telling the other Directors that he intended to continue with the legal action and it would cost X so they all had to chip in, they said they wouldn't, he said he wasn't funding it personally and would take out a Wonga type loan secured against the stadium if they didn't, the rest is what happened. In reality only a small number of people know the real reason for that loan, but very few would claim that Nick doesn't have a spare £3m in the bank. I thought that continuing with the case was naive and doomed to failure, apparently, at the time I wasn't a real fan and needed to watch my football at BS3 for voicing such heresy. |
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Cheshiregas
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Post by Cheshiregas on Feb 6, 2021 15:09:48 GMT
In reality only a small number of people know the real reason for that loan, but very few would claim that Nick doesn't have a spare £3m in the bank. I thought that continuing with the case was naive and doomed to failure, apparently, at the time I wasn't a real fan and needed to watch my football at BS3 for voicing such heresy. I think Nick may have had the money but the rest had said they wouldn't put in any more so in fairness why should he? I thoroughly agree with your last line and your comment elsewhere about differing opinions. That's why it angers me when people tell others to go to BS3 as happened to you, and me. Enjoy the game. |
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 6, 2021 15:48:43 GMT
In reality only a small number of people know the real reason for that loan, but very few would claim that Nick doesn't have a spare £3m in the bank. I thought that continuing with the case was naive and doomed to failure, apparently, at the time I wasn't a real fan and needed to watch my football at BS3 for voicing such heresy. I think Nick may have had the money but the rest had said they wouldn't put in any more so in fairness why should he? I thoroughly agree with your last line and your comment elsewhere about differing opinions. That's why it angers me when people tell others to go to BS3 as happened to you, and me. Enjoy the game. Agree about the BS3 nonsense. We can have different opinions but we are all supporting the same team. There really is no need of it but, to be fair, I’ve rarely seen it on here |
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Post by The Concept on Feb 6, 2021 16:11:01 GMT
Swindon Town "On the brink" ... sold a star player to stay afloat ... all this a year after being Champions of the 4th Tier: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55947454I'm not really my job at all at the moment, but in the current circumstances I'm just glad to still have a job. Likewise, I'm not really enjoying watching my football team at the moment, but in the circumstances I'm just glad to still have my football team to support. |
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bloogas
Joined: July 2016
Posts: 1,119
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Post by bloogas on Feb 6, 2021 17:17:17 GMT
Swindon Town "On the brink" ... sold a star player to stay afloat ... all this a year after being Champions of the 4th Tier: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55947454I'm not really my job at all at the moment, but in the current circumstances I'm just glad to still have a job. Likewise, I'm not really enjoying watching my football team at the moment, but in the circumstances I'm just glad to still have my football team to support. And I bet they aren't the only one. |
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Post by The Concept on Feb 6, 2021 17:22:00 GMT
Yep!
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,361
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 6, 2021 18:19:16 GMT
Swindon Town "On the brink" ... sold a star player to stay afloat ... all this a year after being Champions of the 4th Tier: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55947454I'm not really my job at all at the moment, but in the current circumstances I'm just glad to still have a job. Likewise, I'm not really enjoying watching my football team at the moment, but in the circumstances I'm just glad to still have my football team to support. Isn’t there something going on at swindle, sure I heard rumours of them being bought out ? |
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Post by swissgas on Feb 6, 2021 18:48:54 GMT
This is more than a little confusing. Just to pick 3 points out of it. Firstly, losses were anything from a negligible / tiny profit if we made a cup final ~ minus £1m in a relegation season. Gorringe has been part of the team that has seen £2m + losses become normal. Reducing £2m to £1.95m when most seasons prior to The Dynamic Duo of Wael and Gorringe we would have seen losses hovering around the £200k mark isn't something I think we should be applauding. Debt free. No we are not. The money is still owed, it's just largely invested by an individual now. Makes no difference if it's called 'debt' on a balance sheet or if it's in share capital in a company with no trading value and therefore no sale value. I've missed the statement from Wael saying that he regards the share capital as an investment that he doesn't expect to ever get back. Let me ask you this, has Wael used that freed up equity in the stadium to entice new investors on board so that either our dump of a ground can be made fit for purpose or so that we can get a new stadium plan actually delivered? Why do you suppose that might be? We were in a much stronger position the day before Wael arrived. No charge on the stadium and upwards trajectory. Both of those were no longer the case before Covid arrived. Oh my post is confusing? Firstly, I have no idea why you think that before Gorringe arrived losses were hovering around the £200k mark? To give you a picture of what they actually were for a few of the years prior to Gorringe’s appointment in late 2017. 2010: (1,079,843) 2011: (1,267,207) 2012: (704,020) 2013: (876,720) 2014: (648,845) 2015: (704,020) 2016: (751,001) 2017: (1,301,471) That covers all kinds of seasons, not just promotion/relegation ones. I think there is still lots of work to go of course, but credit to Gorringe for helping us post what I believe is our highest ever turnover of £6,461,681 in the latest accounts and I do think they were making a step in the right direction before the pandemic was hit as they were hoping to cut spending by £1.7 million according to Starnes. I believe Gorringe’s job as commercial director is to grow revenue rather than dictate spending, which he has done? Debt free. Yes we are. BRFC no longer owes BRFC 1883 LTD anything as the previous dept has been capitalised into shares. Regardless of whether you believe the merits of converting debt into equity are good ones, the fact remains that BRFC are debt free, they don’t have to pay any interest on the previous outstanding debt, that was paid off by Wael and there is no risk of the club going into liquidation if Wael was ever going to try to enforce repayment. What money is now owed, the shares satisfy the debt? It makes the club harder to sell down the line sure, but if Wael really wants to sell the club he could always convert equity back into debt and write it off himself. We weren’t in a better place before Wael arrived. We had a costly wonga loan taken out to fund a costly court case that we were never going to win. Debts were mounting, up to 8 million by June 2015. Why do you think Higgs sold up in 2016? We are now building a new training ground, have a well funded L1 squad, have better income streams such as Gorringe’s idea to keep to keep the 1883 sponsorship draw running but sell the main prize independently. There’s no chance, I’d want the club to go back to being run by Higgs. The figures quoted are for BRFC Ltd not the holding company BRFC 1883 Ltd and if we bring them up to date we will see : 2018: (2,611.685) 2019: (3,310.443) 2020: (4,000.000) estimate So in his quest for sustainability Wael has managed to at least triple and probably quadruple the average losses. I admire Tom Gorringe for raising the Rovers social media profile and engaging with younger fans but we just don’t know if he is successful commercially because no figures are available for his department. Overall the club turnover has increased but costs have risen by an even greater amount which is why losses are higher. There is a very good saying in business “ turnover is vanity, profit is sanity”. When we say “we” about Rovers I think we should speak about BRFC 1883 Ltd because that is where the figures are consolidated and that is the company which owns The Mem. At 30.06.19 BRFC 1883 Ltd owed 16 million to Dwane Sports and 4 million to other creditors. So when 18 million was capitalised in 2020 there was still 2 million debt. Add to this the probable 4 million lost in the 2020 financial year, at least another 2 million lost from July 2020 till now and a probable 2 million spent on the training ground and you have at least 10 million owed by BRFC 1883 Ltd to Dwane Sports. “We” are not debt free. I think you are mistaken if you believe we are going in the right direction. |
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,361
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 7, 2021 0:06:50 GMT
Oh my post is confusing? Firstly, I have no idea why you think that before Gorringe arrived losses were hovering around the £200k mark? To give you a picture of what they actually were for a few of the years prior to Gorringe’s appointment in late 2017. 2010: (1,079,843) 2011: (1,267,207) 2012: (704,020) 2013: (876,720) 2014: (648,845) 2015: (704,020) 2016: (751,001) 2017: (1,301,471) That covers all kinds of seasons, not just promotion/relegation ones. I think there is still lots of work to go of course, but credit to Gorringe for helping us post what I believe is our highest ever turnover of £6,461,681 in the latest accounts and I do think they were making a step in the right direction before the pandemic was hit as they were hoping to cut spending by £1.7 million according to Starnes. I believe Gorringe’s job as commercial director is to grow revenue rather than dictate spending, which he has done? Debt free. Yes we are. BRFC no longer owes BRFC 1883 LTD anything as the previous dept has been capitalised into shares. Regardless of whether you believe the merits of converting debt into equity are good ones, the fact remains that BRFC are debt free, they don’t have to pay any interest on the previous outstanding debt, that was paid off by Wael and there is no risk of the club going into liquidation if Wael was ever going to try to enforce repayment. What money is now owed, the shares satisfy the debt? It makes the club harder to sell down the line sure, but if Wael really wants to sell the club he could always convert equity back into debt and write it off himself. We weren’t in a better place before Wael arrived. We had a costly wonga loan taken out to fund a costly court case that we were never going to win. Debts were mounting, up to 8 million by June 2015. Why do you think Higgs sold up in 2016? We are now building a new training ground, have a well funded L1 squad, have better income streams such as Gorringe’s idea to keep to keep the 1883 sponsorship draw running but sell the main prize independently. There’s no chance, I’d want the club to go back to being run by Higgs. The figures quoted are for BRFC Ltd not the holding company BRFC 1883 Ltd and if we bring them up to date we will see : 2018: (2,611.685) 2019: (3,310.443) 2020: (4,000.000) estimate So in his quest for sustainability Wael has managed to at least triple and probably quadruple the average losses. I admire Tom Gorringe for raising the Rovers social media profile and engaging with younger fans but we just don’t know if he is successful commercially because no figures are available for his department. Overall the club turnover has increased but costs have risen by an even greater amount which is why losses are higher. There is a very good saying in business “ turnover is vanity, profit is sanity”. When we say “we” about Rovers I think we should speak about BRFC 1883 Ltd because that is where the figures are consolidated and that is the company which owns The Mem. At 30.06.19 BRFC 1883 Ltd owed 16 million to Dwane Sports and 4 million to other creditors. So when 18 million was capitalised in 2020 there was still 2 million debt. Add to this the probable 4 million lost in the 2020 financial year, at least another 2 million lost from July 2020 till now and a probable 2 million spent on the training ground and you have at least 10 million owed by BRFC 1883 Ltd to Dwane Sports. “We” are not debt free. I think you are mistaken if you believe we are going in the right direction. Some refuse to take this is and Wael is a god |
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Post by billyocean on Feb 7, 2021 8:22:13 GMT
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Post by droitwichgas on Feb 7, 2021 8:24:30 GMT
The figures quoted are for BRFC Ltd not the holding company BRFC 1883 Ltd and if we bring them up to date we will see : 2018: (2,611.685) 2019: (3,310.443) 2020: (4,000.000) estimate So in his quest for sustainability Wael has managed to at least triple and probably quadruple the average losses. I admire Tom Gorringe for raising the Rovers social media profile and engaging with younger fans but we just don’t know if he is successful commercially because no figures are available for his department. Overall the club turnover has increased but costs have risen by an even greater amount which is why losses are higher. There is a very good saying in business “ turnover is vanity, profit is sanity”. When we say “we” about Rovers I think we should speak about BRFC 1883 Ltd because that is where the figures are consolidated and that is the company which owns The Mem. At 30.06.19 BRFC 1883 Ltd owed 16 million to Dwane Sports and 4 million to other creditors. So when 18 million was capitalised in 2020 there was still 2 million debt. Add to this the probable 4 million lost in the 2020 financial year, at least another 2 million lost from July 2020 till now and a probable 2 million spent on the training ground and you have at least 10 million owed by BRFC 1883 Ltd to Dwane Sports. “We” are not debt free. I think you are mistaken if you believe we are going in the right direction. Some refuse to take this is and Wael is a god Not "god" but no viable alternative is ever put forward, just posters continually questioning Wael's motives/ability to run a football club. |
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2021 9:46:45 GMT
Some refuse to take this is and Wael is a god Not "god" but no viable alternative is ever put forward, just posters continually questioning Wael's motives/ability to run a football club. We have no idea what alternatives may be available. Of course at a time when there's next to no income there may well be no interest at all, but this situation with no supporters isn't permanent. If Wael did what the majority of owners do at this level when leaving a club and agreed to write off his losses / investment so that the incoming owner could invest all available funds for the benefit of the club then we would find out what the options were. |
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harrybuckle
Always look on the bright side
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 5,571
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Post by harrybuckle on Feb 7, 2021 10:03:41 GMT
Can anyone confirm
Do we have five left backs
Do we have three assistant managers
Does the development team still play games
Are Rovers likely to Stay up
If Football starts in September with fans will you attend
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,604
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Post by eppinggas on Feb 7, 2021 10:18:39 GMT
2010: (1,079,843) 2011: (1,267,207) 2012: (704,020) 2013: (876,720) 2014: (648,845) 2015: (704,020) 2016: (751,001) 2017: (1,301,471) The figures quoted are for BRFC Ltd not the holding company BRFC 1883 Ltd and if we bring them up to date we will see : 2018: (2,611.685) 2019: (3,310.443) 2020: (4,000.000) estimate So in his quest for sustainability Wael has managed to at least triple and probably quadruple the average losses. I admire Tom Gorringe for raising the Rovers social media profile and engaging with younger fans but we just don’t know if he is successful commercially because no figures are available for his department. Overall the club turnover has increased but costs have risen by an even greater amount which is why losses are higher. There is a very good saying in business “ turnover is vanity, profit is sanity”. When we say “we” about Rovers I think we should speak about BRFC 1883 Ltd because that is where the figures are consolidated and that is the company which owns The Mem. At 30.06.19 BRFC 1883 Ltd owed 16 million to Dwane Sports and 4 million to other creditors. So when 18 million was capitalised in 2020 there was still 2 million debt. Add to this the probable 4 million lost in the 2020 financial year, at least another 2 million lost from July 2020 till now and a probable 2 million spent on the training ground and you have at least 10 million owed by BRFC 1883 Ltd to Dwane Sports. “We” are not debt free. I think you are mistaken if you believe we are going in the right direction. Oh I say, that's an almost unplayable delivery from swissgas. How's axegas going to play it? Looks like it's nipped of the seam and going to go straight through the gate. (I'm watching India/England). |
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bloogas
Joined: July 2016
Posts: 1,119
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Post by bloogas on Feb 7, 2021 10:20:32 GMT
Some refuse to take this is and Wael is a god Not "god" but no viable alternative is ever put forward, just posters continually questioning Wael's motives/ability to run a football club. Alternatives which as far as I can see would leave us no better off. I'm sorry you say that KP - I've no idea whether Wael is a nice guy or the devil incarnate, but it doesn't make much difference. At present he owns the club. I certainly don't view him as God. |
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bondigas
Joined: December 2017
Posts: 407
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Post by bondigas on Feb 7, 2021 10:30:48 GMT
There are plenty of alternatives out there other than Wael licking their lips in anticipation, they are called administrators.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,604
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Post by eppinggas on Feb 7, 2021 10:32:15 GMT
Not "god" but no viable alternative is ever put forward, just posters continually questioning Wael's motives/ability to run a football club. Alternatives which as far as I can see would leave us no better off. I'm sorry you say that KP - I've no idea whether Wael is a nice guy or the devil incarnate, but it doesn't make much difference. At present he owns the club. I certainly don't view him as God. Ah - the polarisation of debate! He is neither the saviour, and neither is he the devil incarnate. I 100% think he is a nice guy. I've been lucky enough to meet him a couple of times, and his heart is in the right place. He really does care. He takes criticism very much to heart. But I think he needs a lot of help at the moment. I am concerned that the people he has around him are friends, rather than passionate Gasheads or hard-nosed businessmen with a strategy. As an aside, I think the criticisms of Tom Gorringe on here are largely unwarranted. Keep the Faith & UTG. |
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Post by Topper Gas on Feb 7, 2021 10:57:42 GMT
Alternatives which as far as I can see would leave us no better off. I'm sorry you say that KP - I've no idea whether Wael is a nice guy or the devil incarnate, but it doesn't make much difference. At present he owns the club. I certainly don't view him as God. Ah - the polarisation of debate! He is neither the saviour, and neither is he the devil incarnate. I 100% think he is a nice guy. I've been lucky enough to meet him a couple of times, and his heart is in the right place. He really does care. He takes criticism very much to heart. But I think he needs a lot of help at the moment. I am concerned that the people he has around him are friends, rather than passionate Gasheads or hard-nosed businessmen with a strategy. As an aside, I think the criticisms of Tom Gorringe on here are largely unwarranted. Keep the Faith & UTG. Who are these mystery "friends" posters keep referring to? Starnes doesn't seem to have any real past connections with Wael and has been a reasonably successful CEO at Plymouth & Yeovil previously, Widdrington was brought in by DC and until the last window most posters thought he was doing a decent good, Gorringe seemed more a friend of Hamer's than Wael's and he seems to be a reasonable job and like MS seemed to do a good job at his previous club, only Kassim is a friend and I doubt his role his involved in the day to day running of the club. |
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bloogas
Joined: July 2016
Posts: 1,119
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Post by bloogas on Feb 7, 2021 11:05:33 GMT
Alternatives which as far as I can see would leave us no better off. I'm sorry you say that KP - I've no idea whether Wael is a nice guy or the devil incarnate, but it doesn't make much difference. At present he owns the club. I certainly don't view him as God. Ah - the polarisation of debate! He is neither the saviour, and neither is he the devil incarnate. I 100% think he is a nice guy. I've been lucky enough to meet him a couple of times, and his heart is in the right place. He really does care. He takes criticism very much to heart. But I think he needs a lot of help at the moment. I am concerned that the people he has around him are friends, rather than passionate Gasheads or hard-nosed businessmen with a strategy. As an aside, I think the criticisms of Tom Gorringe on here are largely unwarranted. Keep the Faith & UTG. There you have the advantage of me epping - you have met him, and I haven't. Therefore I wouldn't comment on his character. |
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Feb 7, 2021 11:12:08 GMT
Ah - the polarisation of debate! He is neither the saviour, and neither is he the devil incarnate. I 100% think he is a nice guy. I've been lucky enough to meet him a couple of times, and his heart is in the right place. He really does care. He takes criticism very much to heart. But I think he needs a lot of help at the moment. I am concerned that the people he has around him are friends, rather than passionate Gasheads or hard-nosed businessmen with a strategy. As an aside, I think the criticisms of Tom Gorringe on here are largely unwarranted. Keep the Faith & UTG. Who are these mystery "friends" posters keep referring to? Starnes doesn't seem to have any real past connections with Wael and has been a reasonably successful CEO at Plymouth & Yeovil previously, Widdrington was brought in by DC and until the last window most posters thought he was doing a decent good, Gorringe seemed more a friend of Hamer's than Wael's and he seems to be a reasonable job and like MS seemed to do a good job at his previous club, only Kassim is a friend and I doubt his role his involved in the day to day running of the club. Perhaps 'friends' is the wrong word. I am pretty sure Wael knew MS prior to the appointment (I've no idea how well). It was certainly a very swift 'out of the blue' appointment. My concern is around the people he has at Board level and their ability to question Wael's decisions / business strategy, and hence their ability to move Rovers to the 'next level'. I'm looking for the passionate Gasheads and/or hard-nosed businessman in your response, and I can't find them. |
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