eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 8, 2020 16:07:20 GMT
Not having a pop at you oldie... I'm fine with threads 'developing'. But if people really want to start talking about funding in the NHS from a regional perspective, that's fine. Start it in General Chat. Similarly any 'debate' around Brexit (if anyone can be bothered to summon up the energy and enthusiasm) that's fine. Start it in General Chat. Same rules will apply - polite debate only. Sadly politics too often descends into mud-slinging and name-calling. I'd rather avoid it to be honest. UTG. I get it, but maybe you should aim your finger wag at Basel, twas he who triangulated BLM to the plight of white working class folk in the UK, but without reference to anything in particular. I was helping him by quoting an example, a fact, which in itself would have triangulated back to Brexit, Turkeys and Christmas. But hey ho I will stand in the naughty corner You can come out of the naughty corner now. It's always interesting to hear your views. Can't say I always agree, but that's not the point. Hope all well.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 16:20:43 GMT
I get it, but maybe you should aim your finger wag at Basel, twas he who triangulated BLM to the plight of white working class folk in the UK, but without reference to anything in particular. I was helping him by quoting an example, a fact, which in itself would have triangulated back to Brexit, Turkeys and Christmas. But hey ho I will stand in the naughty corner You can come out of the naughty corner now. It's always interesting to hear your views. Can't say I always agree, but that's not the point. Hope all well. 👍👍👍
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Post by emperorsuperbus on Dec 8, 2020 16:53:02 GMT
Not what I’m saying. We have our issues too, but if anyone claims UK has exactly the same racial problems, particularly with the police, as they have in US, it is a lie. A dangerous one. We need to be careful how our discourse and this narrative via mainstream and social media is influenced by someone else’s local agenda that’s in a different place to ours. we still have issues with racism in this country. My suggestion is education into unconscious bias and passive by standing to turn the heat up on racism that way. Football clubs can retire kneeling today and concentrate instead on funding this education in its local community. Nice thoughts...but..it won't happen. The biggest difference between the Police in the USA and here is they police by force, armed force. Which inevitably leads to shootings and death. We still, just about, police by consent, unarmed, in the main. Far less shooting and death. Is the inherent attitude that much different, officer by officer? I would like to think so, but I have my doubts. I don’t have any doubts. Community policing in the states is in a different place than it is in this country. Rather than seeing us exactly the same as them progressives in the US looking at us as example where to take it over there. yet you are believing we are the same bad place? Defund the police is a clumsy conflicting term for proposals to move US closer to our set up. Simply spend less on heavy handed police involvement in petty crime, move money to community policing and crime prevention. In terms of the funding balance it’s policy to move more where we are in this country. the US spends significantly less on social services and more on public safety programs, and has astronomically higher incarceration rates. These investments in police and prison, however, don’t translate to a safer country. In fact, police in America kill more people in days than many countries do in years. what was interesting, but I can’t find it I’m afraid, a piece of focus group polling in US by one of America’s top pollsters, during the campaign, first asked what do you think about defund the police policy, and got a huge dislike for it. He then cannily said, what if we do this instead, and listed what defund the police to divert the money to social services policy really is in detail, and got huge support for each one. My key point is we don’t need to adopt a defund police policy in this country, like we don’t have to take the knee, if our localism is in a completely different place. are we in in a different place? The danger here is perceptions warped by US dominated media streams in social media explosion, so we can end up believing we are in same place they are locally over there, advocating for what we don’t need, to tackle problems not nearly as immediate or severe. we still have issues with racism in this country. My suggestion is education into unconscious bias and passive by standing to turn the heat up on racism that way. Football clubs can retire kneeling today and concentrate instead on funding this education in its local community.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 18:47:46 GMT
I'm glad some action has been taken. It appears someone has taken steps to understand all sides of this subject so I hope this is a note generally acceptable way forward: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55223935The correct decision by Millwall IMHO. It would it be great to see both sides taking a joint, unique stance against racism. The message still gets through. Sadly this won't happen. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55218186With regard to taking the knee: "QPR had stopped the gesture, in support of the Black Lives Matter movement, earlier this season after director of football Les Ferdinand said its impact had "been diluted". But now, at Millwall this evening, Mark Warburton has told his players to take the knee. The outcome will be sadly predictable. Well done Mark for throwing oil on the fire. I believe the former article precedes the latter one so one would hope that the plan for the new den tonight is to link arms with a banner. Apparently some QPR players still want to take the knee, I would hope they don’t because they will look like they are just trying to wind people up after the club agreed not to do it anymore.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,261
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Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 8, 2020 19:20:21 GMT
"Booing" seems a bit silly. Same as "booing" your own team when they are playing badly. It's just a bit crass. Me, personally... when I'm back at the Mem and 'if' both teams are required to 'take the knee'. I think I'll just turn my back for 30 seconds. I don't think anyone should be forced to 'take a knee' for a Marxist led organisation (or for that matter, a Fascist led organisation). I hate political extremism. But that's just me. Everyone play nicely. UTG. The f*ckwits and racists seemed to have recently received Facebook medicine degrees, followed in days with virology and epidemiology doctorates from Google, and give the impression they have received all four volumes of Das Kapital in their cornflakes today. I'll wager my pocket-money that the majority of those booing at Millwall, have no evidence that BLM is Marxist-led, and could not define (without Googling) Marxism. I'll start: Very basically ( I can get much, much more Daedalian with regard to Marxism), and over-simplifying Marxism, it usually means analyzing social change through an economic lens, with the assumption that the rich and the poor should become more equal; oh, and plenty of booing footballers who kneel for a couple of seconds before a football match to show support for "black lives" - all very straightforward, really. Old Trot/Marxist here...#UTG Great and funny post. Nice one darloGAS
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,261
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Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 8, 2020 19:26:14 GMT
Well precisely. People can express their opinion, or should be able to, without verbal or physical threats. If players choose to take the knee, why should they be subject to verbal abuse, including booing. Why are people so bothered about it? The general reaction to the booing is that it's disgusting. If there is any hidden meaning by booing I don't think I can see it, they disagree, but it's like booing a minutes silence, that's how it comes across. Does nothing to help make the point that still taking the knee at every game is unnecessary, because no fans have been in to observe/comment on it from day one, or even applaud it, they come across as straight racist, no questions asked. Which, let's face it, they probably are. It's Millwall, it's West Ham. If you think our own club doesn’t have a great deal of racists then I’d suggest going to the rear of any stand, at half time. You cannot generalise at it being just the clubs you mention. Due to my heritage, I have been very observant of it and posts on social media, from many other clubs fans. The only difference, now, is that it’s done surreptitiously and in hushed tones. Football is still rammed with it
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Post by fatherjackhackett on Dec 8, 2020 19:26:15 GMT
Soooo.... Orient and Rovers players took the knee tonight. And were give a standing ovation.
Pretty sure the Orient fan base is WWC, so it must be a Millwall thing.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,261
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Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 8, 2020 20:17:29 GMT
Good way of creating booing at every sporting event in the country. Only by idiots Stunned at your righteousness. Just bloody wow.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,261
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Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 8, 2020 20:39:19 GMT
Just watch any episode of The Crown season 3 or 4 and I for one am glad I work to live in 2020 rather than back then. Well yeah, I thank my lucky stars every day that I’m not off to a Victorian workhouse but that doesn’t mean I’m going to be content with stagnant wages for the lowest percentile of the country whilst those at the top use their already existing wealth and privilege to generate more wealth and privilege. As an advanced nation academically and economically we should be better than that ideologically and we should want better than that. I don’t think we do though, I get the impression that there are plenty in the UK who, if offered ten pounds with the caveat that their neighbour also got ten pounds would prefer to be given five pounds with the caveat that their neighbour gets nothing. Nailed it
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 21:27:40 GMT
The f*ckwits and racists seemed to have recently received Facebook medicine degrees, followed in days with virology and epidemiology doctorates from Google, and give the impression they have received all four volumes of Das Kapital in their cornflakes today. I'll wager my pocket-money that the majority of those booing at Millwall, have no evidence that BLM is Marxist-led, and could not define (without Googling) Marxism. I'll start: Very basically ( I can get much, much more Daedalian with regard to Marxism), and over-simplifying Marxism, it usually means analyzing social change through an economic lens, with the assumption that the rich and the poor should become more equal; oh, and plenty of booing footballers who kneel for a couple of seconds before a football match to show support for "black lives" - all very straightforward, really. Old Trot/Marxist here...#UTG Great and funny post. Nice one darloGAS Thanks, KP. You've got impeccable taste 😉 #UTG
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Post by emperorsuperbus on Dec 8, 2020 21:47:42 GMT
Anyway, it’s all over now. Chair and Bright of QPR killed knee taking tonight.
Martin Luther King and Kapernik took the knee for the completely opposite reason they just used it.
King asked, am I not your brother too?
They merely grinned, the worlds out to screw me so screw you.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,158
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 8, 2020 22:04:14 GMT
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,158
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 8, 2020 22:13:10 GMT
Soooo.... Orient and Rovers players took the knee tonight. And were give a standing ovation. Pretty sure the Orient fan base is WWC, so it must be a Millwall thing. Pretty damn sure I know more Orient fans than you do father. It's about percentages. Orient has a percentage of knuckle headed racists. So does Bristol Rovers FC (though not as many as south of the river). Millwall, almost certainly, has more. However this evening has come some way to restoring my faith in humanity. Happy Christmas.
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Dec 8, 2020 22:51:17 GMT
We’ve been brought up to fear equality in this country. I wonder why? And for whose benefit? It’s a real head scratcher that one.... We are probably the most inclusive country in the world. I beg to differ. I've lived in 3 different countries and spent time in about 50. We wouldn't make the top ten for inclusivity amongst those. Little Britain likes to think it is a tolerant country but we are a very divided Nation where 50% of the population has embraced nationalist and isolationist populism.
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 9, 2020 7:43:42 GMT
We are probably the most inclusive country in the world. I beg to differ. I've lived in 3 different countries and spent time in about 50. We wouldn't make the top ten for inclusivity amongst those. Little Britain likes to think it is a tolerant country but we are a very divided Nation where 50% of the population has embraced nationalist and isolationist populism. To genuinely ask and be educated, not to be facetious or antagonistic, which countries have you lived in and which would you say are more inclusive than the UK? Mrs V.
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 9, 2020 7:46:09 GMT
Well yeah, I thank my lucky stars every day that I’m not off to a Victorian workhouse but that doesn’t mean I’m going to be content with stagnant wages for the lowest percentile of the country whilst those at the top use their already existing wealth and privilege to generate more wealth and privilege. As an advanced nation academically and economically we should be better than that ideologically and we should want better than that. I don’t think we do though, I get the impression that there are plenty in the UK who, if offered ten pounds with the caveat that their neighbour also got ten pounds would prefer to be given five pounds with the caveat that their neighbour gets nothing. Nailed it Yet in the 1970s and 80s we were all out for our neighbours and equality too? I think not. We're better off now, that was my point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 9:57:28 GMT
Stunned at your righteousness. Just bloody wow. You are very welcome
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,287
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Post by Rex on Dec 9, 2020 11:22:42 GMT
I find it so disheartening that 'liberal' has become a word to use as an insult and a taunt. I think those who use it would be horrified at conditions if we didn't live in a liberal society. Oddly enough, and- in view of their ongoing spats on here- this is more aimed at Oldie than a reply to Basel, I know Basel pretty well and he is a very tolerant, liberal minded kind of bloke! Rex said Oddly enough, and- in view of their ongoing spats on here- this is more aimed at Oldie than a reply to Basel, I know Basel pretty well and he is a very tolerant, liberal minded kind of bloke! I don't know him, but I believe you.Good I was just worried you may have had him marked as a certain 'type' , which, if I didn't know him I may have also done
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 12:38:30 GMT
Rex said Oddly enough, and- in view of their ongoing spats on here- this is more aimed at Oldie than a reply to Basel, I know Basel pretty well and he is a very tolerant, liberal minded kind of bloke! I don't know him, but I believe you.Good I was just worried you may have had him marked as a certain 'type' , which, if I didn't know him I may have also done Not the "type" you had in mind (guessing) But a bit lacking in lateral thinking. I remember now, I met him once, years ago at an away game I think. In the bar...most of my meetings have been in the bar🤔🤣
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,287
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Post by Rex on Dec 9, 2020 13:34:50 GMT
Good I was just worried you may have had him marked as a certain 'type' , which, if I didn't know him I may have also done Not the "type" you had in mind (guessing) But a bit lacking in lateral thinking. I remember now, I met him once, years ago at an away game I think. In the bar... most of my meetings have been in the bar🤔🤣 Then I would be amazed if we haven't bumped into each other at some point!
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