knowall
Joined: August 2019
Posts: 162
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Post by knowall on Oct 1, 2020 16:14:50 GMT
Well that's a nonsense for a start - its not too hard to understand what he wrote as its in black & white in the thread above and he states the cash should be diverted to making us "a more competitive team" So Swiss doesn't want the new training ground, has already said we should sell the Mem, wants more spent on the team rather than infrastructure and also says we should get consultants in to tell us what to do. All whilst being a serial WAQ & Board knocker. Seems like more and more the model of 30 years ago (other than the last bits) The worrying thing is that one or two might think he is being serious. Or even more worrying that it could be a good idea. Full of Wind Up Merchants is the Internet The model of 30 years ago got Rovers to Championship level, balanced the books and enabled us to buy the Mem. It was called common sense then and it still is today. 100% correct - if only we could follow that model now.
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Post by a more piratey game on Oct 1, 2020 16:31:51 GMT
I think the last thing I'd say about Wael is that he has been unwilling to engage consultants I wonder why? ? go on, at your age you should be brave enough to spit it out or will you stick with tradition and just insinuate? we're barely curious. Best wishes to the Wish I Were President Club!
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knowall
Joined: August 2019
Posts: 162
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Post by knowall on Oct 1, 2020 16:34:36 GMT
go on, at your age you should be brave enough to spit it out or will you stick with tradition and just insinuate? we're barely curious. Best wishes to the Wish I Were President Club! You obviously know more than me? so illuminate
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Post by a more piratey game on Oct 1, 2020 16:40:43 GMT
go on, at your age you should be brave enough to spit it out or will you stick with tradition and just insinuate? we're barely curious. Best wishes to the Wish I Were President Club! You obviously know more than me? I know really very little, but am minded to agree with you I'd speculate that Wael has never run a football club before, nor developed land in the UK, so was keen to bring in expert advice, especially in the early stages. I'd speculate further that Hani, being reputedly more risk-averse, might have insisted on it you see, it's not difficult - state what you think, and whether it's based on fact or just speculation. We're never too old to learn!
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Post by swissgas on Oct 1, 2020 17:47:01 GMT
The construction of the club house, gymnasium and associated infrastructure will take a very large amount of cash. But on the face of it the end result will be an inferior training facility to that we have now at the Coombe Dingle Sports Complex. And the annual cost of running the Almondsbury Training Centre will be at least double what was paid in rent at Cribbs and probably a lot more than we would pay at Coombe Dingle for superior indoor, outdoor and all weather facilities. I think that cash, which may be in excess of a million, would be better spent on a making sure the business can pay its way and in restructuring to ensure we have a competitive football team. It’s probably too late now but I would still make the calls. Please be gentle with Mr Unpopular ! Good morning Mr Interesting-if-currently-Unpopular! All successful clubs own their own training ground, ergo we want to own ours The pitches won't be inferior to what we have at present, which is key (according to those who know about football), all will be relatively poo-free It will be developed over time to be better It will provide a base for a proper club - a sense of belonging And the annual cost of running it will be defrayed by income streams attached to the site which will be developed by Mr Gorringe-rhymes-with-Orange And we've had time to look before we leapt. Before you know it, we'll both look like a Championship club and be a Championship club! Maybe Do clubs have to own their own training ground in order to become successful ? Or do successful clubs find their success provides them with the financial resources to own their own training ground if that's what they choose to do ? My take on this, as you know, is that you don't have to own any infrastructure in order to be successful and if you have insufficient cash to run your business effectively it is foolish to put a lot of that precious cash into infrastructure. Especially when the infrastructure provides inferior facilities and a negative financial return. The common misconception is that putting money into property is an investment which will only grow in value. But in recent weeks we have seen a perfect example of how that theory is flawed. Bolton Wanderers developed the Euxton Training Ground for a reputed £ 10 million. When Bolton got into trouble they sold it to Wigan Athletic for £ 2.2 million. Now Wigan Athletic are in Administration this "Premiership Ready" facility has been sold to Preston North End for £ 1.6 million. Regarding Martyn Starnes. He is overseeing the redundancy of long serving staff members, the team is at the bottom of the league and the monthly cash deficit must be horrendous so his job cannot be anything other than extremely stressful. Of course we all like the improved and updated commercial presence which Tom has brought about but in the real world it's not yet possible to pay your bills with Instagram followers.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2020 18:27:37 GMT
Maybe I didn't understand what Swiss wrote, but I thought he was questioning whether we could be spending money to produce facilities inferior to those presently available to us? Well that's a nonsense for a start - its not too hard to understand what he wrote as its in black & white in the thread above and he states the cash should be diverted to making us "a more competitive team" So Swiss doesn't want the new training ground, has already said we should sell the Mem, wants more spent on the team rather than infrastructure and also says we should get consultants in to tell us what to do. All whilst being a serial WAQ & Board knocker. Seems like more and more the model of 30 years ago (other than the last bits) The worrying thing is that one or two might think he is being serious. Or even more worrying that it could be a good idea. Full of Wind Up Merchants is the Internet Yes, full of people seeking to misunderstand. What he actually suggested was that there's not much point making investment into worse facilities whilst other areas of the club are starved of cash. I'll bow to your superior knowledge and concede that successful business have never required the services of consultants to take an overview and offer advice. I'm sure you know best. Ref Gorringe. See above for my thoughts on the bloke. Mintbet says it all really. But even if in some strange parallel universe that's forgivable, we still have no idea if the departments that he oversees have actually generated any additional retained profit. Maybe you can copy and paste the sections of the accounts that demonstrate that he's actually making the club money?
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Post by swissgas on Oct 1, 2020 19:17:38 GMT
Well that's a nonsense for a start - its not too hard to understand what he wrote as its in black & white in the thread above and he states the cash should be diverted to making us "a more competitive team" So Swiss doesn't want the new training ground, has already said we should sell the Mem, wants more spent on the team rather than infrastructure and also says we should get consultants in to tell us what to do. All whilst being a serial WAQ & Board knocker. Seems like more and more the model of 30 years ago (other than the last bits) The worrying thing is that one or two might think he is being serious. Or even more worrying that it could be a good idea. Full of Wind Up Merchants is the Internet Yes, full of people seeking to misunderstand. What he actually suggested was that there's not much point making investment into worse facilities whilst other areas of the club are starved of cash. I'll bow to your superior knowledge and concede that successful business have never required the services of consultants to take an overview and offer advice. I'm sure you know best. Ref Gorringe. See above for my thoughts on the bloke. Mintbet says it all really. But even if in some strange parallel universe that's forgivable, we still have no idea if the departments that he oversees have actually generated any additional retained profit. Maybe you can copy and paste the sections of the accounts that demonstrate that he's actually making the club money? The misunderstanding may extend to the perception of consultants. For many people, especially us oldies, consultants are thought of as people with clipboards doing work study at a business and earning a fee by putting workers out of a job. What I am proposing is something completely different. Some may remember Nick Higgs' foray into seeking venture capital when the editor of a Middle East newspaper asked how much he was looking for and Nick said "they can put in whatever they like really" which sounded to me like a Vicar begging for donations to repair a Church roof. And can we honestly see Wael being any different when he meets people at football conferences or other networking events ? I think someone needs to look at the whole picture and come up with a plan. And the kind of people I am suggesting won't only know how to put together a good business plan they will have the ability to seek out partners and investors worldwide. They will know how to best utilize the asset we have (the Mem), know who may have suitable land available in the area, who might be interested in building a stadium as part of a bigger commercial development, who wants to gain a foothold in English football as well as how much they are prepared to invest and how to negotiate effectively with all prospective partners including banks and regulatory authorities. In short, they have the knowledge, expertise and contacts which no owner of Rovers could ever expect to have. All available at a price and IMO, if we are serious about progressing Rovers, a wise use of the available cash before it runs out.
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Post by a more piratey game on Oct 1, 2020 19:35:10 GMT
might be interested in building a stadium as part of a bigger commercial development, who wants to gain a foothold in English football as well as how much they are prepared to invest and how to negotiate effectively with all prospective partners including banks and regulatory authorities. In short, they have the knowledge, expertise and contacts which no owner of Rovers could ever expect to have. All available at a price and IMO, if we are serious about progressing Rovers, a wise use of the available cash before it runs out. that does sound like the people rumoured to be involved in Fruity Things though, doesn't it - and some say that they are Rovers fans to boot?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2020 19:37:55 GMT
Yes, full of people seeking to misunderstand. What he actually suggested was that there's not much point making investment into worse facilities whilst other areas of the club are starved of cash. I'll bow to your superior knowledge and concede that successful business have never required the services of consultants to take an overview and offer advice. I'm sure you know best. Ref Gorringe. See above for my thoughts on the bloke. Mintbet says it all really. But even if in some strange parallel universe that's forgivable, we still have no idea if the departments that he oversees have actually generated any additional retained profit. Maybe you can copy and paste the sections of the accounts that demonstrate that he's actually making the club money? The misunderstanding may extend to the perception of consultants. For many people, especially us oldies, consultants are thought of as people with clipboards doing work study at a business and earning a fee by putting workers out of a job. What I am proposing is something completely different. Some may remember Nick Higgs' foray into seeking venture capital when the editor of a Middle East newspaper asked how much he was looking for and Nick said "they can put in whatever they like really" which sounded to me like a Vicar begging for donations to repair a Church roof. And can we honestly see Wael being any different when he meets people at football conferences or other networking events ? I think someone needs to look at the whole picture and come up with a plan. And the kind of people I am suggesting won't only know how to put together a good business plan they will have the ability to seek out partners and investors worldwide. They will know how to best utilize the asset we have (the Mem), know who may have suitable land available in the area, who might be interested in building a stadium as part of a bigger commercial development, who wants to gain a foothold in English football as well as how much they are prepared to invest and how to negotiate effectively with all prospective partners including banks and regulatory authorities. In short, they have the knowledge, expertise and contacts which no owner of Rovers could ever expect to have. All available at a price and IMO, if we are serious about progressing Rovers, a wise use of the available cash before it runs out. Yea, but Gorringe has installed little boxes that, when they work, make a 'bong' noise before someone has to manually release a catch to let you through a turnstile. Come on, give it up, contraceptive is the Man with a plan.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2020 19:39:11 GMT
that does sound like the people rumoured to be involved in Fruity Things though, doesn't it - and some say that they are Rovers fans to boot? What the heck have you done there AMPG, you've put what Swiss said in a quote from me. I could never, ever, not in a million years come up with anything that made that much sense.
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Post by a more piratey game on Oct 1, 2020 19:52:20 GMT
that does sound like the people rumoured to be involved in Fruity Things though, doesn't it - and some say that they are Rovers fans to boot? What the heck have you done there AMPG, you've put what Swiss said in a quote from me. I could never, ever, not in a million years come up with anything that made that much sense. Fair point, well made Sorry, I've no idea!
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2020 21:51:41 GMT
Well that's a nonsense for a start - its not too hard to understand what he wrote as its in black & white in the thread above and he states the cash should be diverted to making us "a more competitive team" So Swiss doesn't want the new training ground, has already said we should sell the Mem, wants more spent on the team rather than infrastructure and also says we should get consultants in to tell us what to do. All whilst being a serial WAQ & Board knocker. Seems like more and more the model of 30 years ago (other than the last bits) The worrying thing is that one or two might think he is being serious. Or even more worrying that it could be a good idea. Full of Wind Up Merchants is the Internet The model of 30 years ago got Rovers to Championship level, balanced the books and enabled us to buy the Mem. It was called common sense then and it still is today. Not exactly Swiss
Yes we got to the Championship and balanced the books, and what an incredible job that was. That was an amazing feat, but it simply could not be done in todays world with the way the game has changed, simply not a chance. That was before freedom of contract, a more level playing field between the 92 clubs, and the biggest difference being wage bill.
GD recognised that model was unsustainable when we could no longer sell players every season and that was when Directors Loans had to be used.
Must correct you regarding buying the Mem though. It didnt enable us to buy the Mem. We had to raise £2.3m, which was done through preferential shares at a payback of X % above base rate (and remember base rates were massive compared to today) and which the club was still paying some back comparatevly recently.
I supsect that if WAQ came up with that kind of plan you would try and rip it to shreads
Regarding common sense? Not a chance - not in in the Football League. Nobody with common sense would purchase a Football League club, not unless they were prepared to lose a lot of money.
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RiversGas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,064
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Post by RiversGas on Oct 2, 2020 8:24:24 GMT
My short term strategy would start tomorrow by getting in touch with a few advisory firms such as Deloitte and BDO, tell them our current trading and balance sheet position, explain that we need a new stadium, explain that we (as the owner) are able to subsidise the club to a maximum amount of £ X per annum and ask them how they would go about coming up with an outline plan for achieving the goal of controlled sustainability. Depending on the outcome of this exercise then choose the advisory firm to go forward with, committing a large sum of money for their work, and after say a six month period end up with a comprehensive business plan which, together with their help, can be marketed to potential investors worldwide. My constant (I hope) constructive criticism is not flawed because the corner shop only lost about £ 1 million pa and if it had not been for the Sainsbury fiasco our then owners would have been willing and able to cover that even if it meant progress was limited. But now, in the brave new world which you may see but I can't, the club is losing upwards of £ 3 million pa while the team is nosediving and it is inconceivable that Wael has the financial resources to keep pumping money in at this rate Ad infinitum. In my opinion, these consultancy firms would more than likely advise Wael to wind Rovers up and invest his money into something that is likely to improve his wealth, not reduce it. Where does that leave the Rover's fan.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 9:09:01 GMT
The model of 30 years ago got Rovers to Championship level, balanced the books and enabled us to buy the Mem. It was called common sense then and it still is today. Not exactly Swiss
Yes we got to the Championship and balanced the books, and what an incredible job that was. That was an amazing feat, but it simply could not be done in todays world with the way the game has changed, simply not a chance. That was before freedom of contract, a more level playing field between the 92 clubs, and the biggest difference being wage bill.
GD recognised that model was unsustainable when we could no longer sell players every season and that was when Directors Loans had to be used.
Must correct you regarding buying the Mem though. It didnt enable us to buy the Mem. We had to raise £2.3m, which was done through preferential shares at a payback of X % above base rate (and remember base rates were massive compared to today) and which the club was still paying some back comparatevly recently.
I supsect that if WAQ came up with that kind of plan you would try and rip it to shreads
Regarding common sense? Not a chance - not in in the Football League. Nobody with common sense would purchase a Football League club, not unless they were prepared to lose a lot of money.
Hang on just a moment. We borrowed from the bank to raise the money for the initial stadium purchase, it was at their insistence that the clause was inserted which allowed us to obtain the other 50% of the stadium for a nominal sum a couple of years later.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 9:17:31 GMT
My short term strategy would start tomorrow by getting in touch with a few advisory firms such as Deloitte and BDO, tell them our current trading and balance sheet position, explain that we need a new stadium, explain that we (as the owner) are able to subsidise the club to a maximum amount of £ X per annum and ask them how they would go about coming up with an outline plan for achieving the goal of controlled sustainability. Depending on the outcome of this exercise then choose the advisory firm to go forward with, committing a large sum of money for their work, and after say a six month period end up with a comprehensive business plan which, together with their help, can be marketed to potential investors worldwide. My constant (I hope) constructive criticism is not flawed because the corner shop only lost about £ 1 million pa and if it had not been for the Sainsbury fiasco our then owners would have been willing and able to cover that even if it meant progress was limited. But now, in the brave new world which you may see but I can't, the club is losing upwards of £ 3 million pa while the team is nosediving and it is inconceivable that Wael has the financial resources to keep pumping money in at this rate Ad infinitum. In my opinion, these consultancy firms would more than likely advise Wael to wind Rovers up and invest his money into something that is likely to improve his wealth, not reduce it. Where does that leave the Rover's fan. I don't have huge experience of these consultants, and none at all at the level that Swiss is talking about, but one of the things that they ask early on is 'why are you running this business?' If all you say is 'To make money' they won't leave it there, there's always more to it than that. So it's unlikely that their first reaction would be to look at the numbers, throw their arms in the air and tell him to give up.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 10:08:37 GMT
Not exactly Swiss
Yes we got to the Championship and balanced the books, and what an incredible job that was. That was an amazing feat, but it simply could not be done in todays world with the way the game has changed, simply not a chance. That was before freedom of contract, a more level playing field between the 92 clubs, and the biggest difference being wage bill.
GD recognised that model was unsustainable when we could no longer sell players every season and that was when Directors Loans had to be used.
Must correct you regarding buying the Mem though. It didnt enable us to buy the Mem. We had to raise £2.3m, which was done through preferential shares at a payback of X % above base rate (and remember base rates were massive compared to today) and which the club was still paying some back comparatevly recently.
I supsect that if WAQ came up with that kind of plan you would try and rip it to shreads
Regarding common sense? Not a chance - not in in the Football League. Nobody with common sense would purchase a Football League club, not unless they were prepared to lose a lot of money.
Hang on just a moment. We borrowed from the bank to raise the money for the initial stadium purchase, it was at their insistence that the clause was inserted which allowed us to obtain the other 50% of the stadium for a nominal sum a couple of years later. You may be right that we borrowed some from the bank but we definately took out Preference Shares that were interest bearing which were purchased by individuals with payback 'when the club were in position to do so' - and some were still waiting quite recently - I can recall questions at an AGM a few years ago. That £2.3m in total allowed us to take up 50% ownership of the Memorial Stadium Company, who would own the Mem along with the Rugby club owning the other 50%. GD also did that fantastic bit of business, the best bit of business known to mankind that inserted a clause saying if either party went bust the other party could take over the remaining 50% ownership of the Mem Stadium co for £10k. And we know the Rugby club soon went bust. BUT there were questions all over Forums at that time along the lines of 'We don't own the Mem'! (It was the Mem co, not BRFC) but all was the same party really. I also recall Rovers actually paid rent to the Mem co, it was being paid to ourselves and it was about the same amount as we had previously paid the rugby club when were first became tenants. All in all, not a lot different to now. Change the name from Memorial Stadium Company to 'Dwayne Developments' but no doubt one or two will find a reason to argue about it and claim the old days were better and WAQ cant be trusted/doesn't know what he is doing
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 10:14:56 GMT
Hang on just a moment. We borrowed from the bank to raise the money for the initial stadium purchase, it was at their insistence that the clause was inserted which allowed us to obtain the other 50% of the stadium for a nominal sum a couple of years later. You may be right that we borrowed some from the bank but we definately took out Preference Shares that were interest bearing which were purchased by individuals with payback 'when the club were in position to do so' - and some were still waiting quite recently. That £2.3m ib total allowed us to take up 50% ownership of the Memorial Stadium Company, who would own the Mem along with the Rugby club owning the other 50%. GD also did that fantastic bit of business, the best bit of business known to mankind that inserted a clause saying if either party went bust the other party could take over the remaining 50% ownership of the Mem Stadium co for £10k. And we know the Rugby club soon went bust.BUT there were questions all over Forums at that time along the lines of 'We don't own the Mem'! (It was the Mem co, not BRFC) but all was the same party really. I also recall Rovers actually paid rent to the Mem co, it was being paid to ourselves and it was about the same amount as we had previously paid the rugby club when were first became tenants. All in all, not a lot different to now. Change the name from Memorial Stadium Company to 'Dwayne Developments' but no doubt one or two will find a reason to argue about it and claim the old days were better. Again, this was inserted at the insistence of the bank as a condition of advancing the funds. It gave them security. I'm far from a Geoff basher, I always got on well with him, but this is one thing that he's given credit for that wasn't actually his own doing.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 10:19:24 GMT
You may be right that we borrowed some from the bank but we definately took out Preference Shares that were interest bearing which were purchased by individuals with payback 'when the club were in position to do so' - and some were still waiting quite recently. That £2.3m ib total allowed us to take up 50% ownership of the Memorial Stadium Company, who would own the Mem along with the Rugby club owning the other 50%. GD also did that fantastic bit of business, the best bit of business known to mankind that inserted a clause saying if either party went bust the other party could take over the remaining 50% ownership of the Mem Stadium co for £10k. And we know the Rugby club soon went bust.BUT there were questions all over Forums at that time along the lines of 'We don't own the Mem'! (It was the Mem co, not BRFC) but all was the same party really. I also recall Rovers actually paid rent to the Mem co, it was being paid to ourselves and it was about the same amount as we had previously paid the rugby club when were first became tenants. All in all, not a lot different to now. Change the name from Memorial Stadium Company to 'Dwayne Developments' but no doubt one or two will find a reason to argue about it and claim the old days were better. Again, this was inserted at the insistence of the bank as a condition of advancing the funds. It gave them security. I'm far from a Geoff basher, I always got on well with him, but this is one thing that he's given credit for that wasn't actually his own doing. You may be right, who knows. God knows who was representing the Rugby Club on those talks, perhaps it was the same party who advised us to sue Sainsbury 20 years later
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 10:38:26 GMT
Again, this was inserted at the insistence of the bank as a condition of advancing the funds. It gave them security. I'm far from a Geoff basher, I always got on well with him, but this is one thing that he's given credit for that wasn't actually his own doing. You may be right, who knows. God knows who was representing the Rugby Club on those talks, perhaps it was the same party who advised us to sue Sainsbury 20 years later My thoughts are that the rugby club were happy as they thought it would be them handing over a tiny sum and getting the entire stadium back. Things sometimes don't go to plan.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,263
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Post by kingswood Polak on Oct 2, 2020 10:40:20 GMT
Maybe I didn't understand what Swiss wrote, but I thought he was questioning whether we could be spending money to produce facilities inferior to those presently available to us? Well that's a nonsense for a start - its not too hard to understand what he wrote as its in black & white in the thread above and he states the cash should be diverted to making us "a more competitive team" So Swiss doesn't want the new training ground, has already said we should sell the Mem, wants more spent on the team rather than infrastructure and also says we should get consultants in to tell us what to do. All whilst being a serial WAQ & Board knocker. Seems like more and more the model of 30 years ago (other than the last bits) The worrying thing is that one or two might think he is being serious. Or even more worrying that it could be a good idea. Full of Wind Up Merchants is the Internet Have you had any previous with swissgas ? Maybe a private chat would have him elucidate his views. You couldn’t be more wrong if you tried
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