Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 4:04:32 GMT
Is this like some weird stupidest post imaginable competition? If it is then [you're] easily winning. That's rude.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 29, 2020 5:25:59 GMT
This is how I figure some things, I hope I'm wrong: BG appears to surrounding himself with mostly kids, newbies and youth. Ehmer apart, no captains or leaders. Even his assistant, no one had heard of before!? This translates to no one standing up to him or questioning his management, ergo 'yes' men. Wael, by appointing BG appears to be doing the same. Maybe it's a style of not bringing in anyone whom knows more than you do? So little,baldwin,westbroke,jaakola and every young player that ever played football are "yes men"? Is this like some weird stupidest post imaginable competition? If it is then your easily winning. Jaak and Little aren't BG players (yet they are when it comes to BG assembling his own squad which is used by folk saying give more time). Thanks for the compliment... đ I guess when there's nothing left to retort, the classic mistake of attacking the poster, not the post is employed? Go in then, I'll play: The most closed mind and tunnel vision award winner goes to the poster that has afflicted Rodders.
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warehamgas
Predictions League
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Posts: 3,430
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 29, 2020 11:16:09 GMT
But epping it is clubs like us that give the younger managers their experience. Don Megson, Terry Cooper, Ollie, Paul T, Darrell Clarke (? Yes I know he was at Salisbury), John Ward first time, all came to us for first managerial roles and did very well. Indeed of our 6 promotions, 4 were achieved with ânewâ managers only Bert Tann and Gerry Francis were people whoâd managed elsewhere. Although, without checking I donât think Bert Tann had managed elsewhere, a physio at Charlton I think. Iâm sure someone will correct me. So 5 out of 6 promotions achieved with new managers. Its not the lack of managerial experience in this case, itâs just he's looking like the wrong person who canât implement his ideas nor create something from his own hand-picked players. It doesnât seem a comfortable fit atm. I hope it changes but for it to do that he needs to learn from his defeats. Iâm not sure he will, I like a bit of obstinacy but itâs coming over now more as arrogance. And that I donât like. So I donât really blame Wael, the idea and intention was correct it was just the wrong person. What is it they say? If you do what youâve always done you get what youâve always got. He needs to change. UTG! edit: although it doesnât change my basic point about 5/6 promotions with new managers, Iâve remembered that John Ward managed at York City before us, so not a new manager. I think we can agree it's not about "new managers" per se. The point I tried to make is that there must be a reason why Ben Garner's CV magically floated to the top of the pile. How did he beat dozens (possibly hundreds) of other CV's? Did Wael know Ben Garner personally prior to the selection process? I think, yes. How else did he get the job? What other metrics were employed? Someone else suggested that Ben Garner did an unbelievable pitch to the Board (effectively Wael - he owns the Club) to get the job. FFS! Have you heard him in his post-match interviews? Really? Really? He couldn't sell Guinness to the Irish. I'm not buying it. It's not about a "cheap" hire either. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who would want a shout at managing a League 1 outfit and prepared to do it for peanuts. Sol Campbell anyone? Wael has made a mistake. We all suspect it. We all want BG do succeed. But we all know in our heart of hearts, it's very, very, very, unlikely to happen. Ah. Thatâs different then, thatâs not what I was replying to. My point was about new, inexperienced managers with which I have no problem. I think weâre agreeing, Iâve nothing against ânewâ managers without experience. Its just beginning to look like the wrong person. And Iâve no idea about the process in appointing him, except that he was appointed quite quickly and you may well be correct about him doing a great pitch to Wael. But unless we know who applied everything else remains in the realms of fiction. Ultimately it will depend upon results. If he gets a few wins it gives him a chance to survive, many more Saturdays like weâve just had and he will go. I think itâs fairly simple and the only unknown factor is how long will Wael give him. Lucky for BG that we have no fans watching live at the moment. If there were I suspect Wael would act sooner. UTG!
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Post by a more piratey game on Sept 29, 2020 12:03:59 GMT
I think I've posed this question before... but here goes again. Why did we give BG the job with a paper thin CV and no managerial experience (coaching aside)? Is there a personal tie with Wael that goes back to chelski / west London? If I'm wrong - fine. But I just can't see why he was in the frame when GC got the job, and why he was fast-tracked in when GC went post-Ipswich. An away win and Tom Nichols scored. Crikey. One to live long in the memory. To answer the question it may be worth looking at the similarities between Ben and Wael. Both are passionate about football and both have been desperate to be significant in the football business. But neither is blessed with the exceptional natural ability which would have given them a fast direct route to a role of importance Ben spent fifteen years graduating from coaching youngsters to playing a peripheral supporting role to team managers and hoping to be asked to make the step up but then his career hit a brick wall. Wael presumably spent twenty years securing himself a minor role in Jordanian football while dreaming of making the transition from a boyhood Chelsea fan to a position of significance somewhere within the European game. The two men are limited in their ability to actually earn a place at the âtop tableâ but both are extremely adept at persuading others, and in particular the media, that they have exactly what is needed. Ben is able to bamboozle us with technicalities which we donât understand and so we instinctively assume that âif he knows this much he must be absolutely super- dooper with the mundane basics of football coachingâ. And Wael carries the calm manner of a well educated successful businessman so, without actually examining the detail of what he says, we are easily convinced that is what he is. The reality is that neither has any serious achievements to his name but, through âcredibility via associationâ for one and through family money for the other, both have been able to attain the significant role they covet. It may be that Ben and Wael are two similar personalities with comparable strengths and weaknesses who found an instant affinity when they were brought together. I think that's all incidental (which is one way of saying 'not very relevant') Wael arrived with (or developed in the first year here) a bit of a vision about how to make us a Championship club. That involves a few things, including but now limited to being based at a modern training ground, having varied income streams including via a good stadium, using modern techniques, developing players and selling them on, being led by a cohesive team on and off the pitch, and playing 'technical football' which will support progress in the league above Ben G fits that bill very well. Which doesn't mean he'll be a winning manager, but he fits the bill. Either Hamer or Starnes (probably Starnes, as it was coherent) explained that Cogs got the gig as he was the 'croysis, backs to the wall for a foight' manager (which he did probably loads better than anyone anticipated), whereas from 4th position the club felt they could make a more strategic appointment also, Wael has some contacts at Chelsea, and probably south-west London football more generally (hence the Bristol Rovers London thing), which provide something of a 'model' or 'pathway' to follow. Ben G, and now Mesure, are the sort of peeps who might help exploit that the alternative has been our approach of trying to 'blend' a team of L1 pluggers to get us promoted, and then recruit a new team which might make it in the league above. It was time to try the modern way, I think. And it might require a few iterations
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 13:24:31 GMT
To answer the question it may be worth looking at the similarities between Ben and Wael. Both are passionate about football and both have been desperate to be significant in the football business. But neither is blessed with the exceptional natural ability which would have given them a fast direct route  to a role of importance Ben spent fifteen years graduating from coaching youngsters to playing a peripheral supporting role to team managers and hoping to be asked to make the step up but then  his career hit a brick wall. Wael presumably spent twenty years securing himself a minor role in Jordanian football while dreaming of making the transition from a boyhood Chelsea fan to a position of significance somewhere within the European game. The two men are limited in their ability to actually earn a place at the âtop tableâ but both are extremely adept at persuading others, and in particular the media, that they have exactly what is needed. Ben is able to bamboozle us with technicalities which we donât understand and so we instinctively assume that âif he knows this much he must be absolutely super- dooper  with  the mundane basics of football coachingâ. And Wael carries the calm manner of a well educated successful businessman so, without actually examining the detail of what he says, we are easily convinced that is what he is. The reality is that neither has any serious achievements to his name but, through âcredibility via associationâ for one  and through family money for the other, both have been able to attain the significant role they covet. It may be that Ben and Wael are two similar personalities with comparable strengths and weaknesses who found an instant affinity when they were brought together. I think that's all incidental (which is one way of saying 'not very relevant') Wael arrived with (or developed in the first year here) a bit of a vision about how to make us a Championship club. That involves a few things, including but now limited to being based at a modern training ground, having varied income streams including via a good stadium, using modern techniques, developing players and selling them on, being led by a cohesive team on and off the pitch, and playing 'technical football' which will support progress in the league above Ben G fits that bill very well. Which doesn't mean he'll be a winning manager, but he fits the bill. Either Hamer or Starnes (probably Starnes, as it was coherent) explained that Cogs got the gig as he was the 'croysis, backs to the wall for a foight' manager (which he did probably loads better than anyone anticipated), whereas from 4th position the club felt they could make a more strategic appointment also, Wael has some contacts at Chelsea, and probably south-west London football more generally (hence the Bristol Rovers London thing), which provide something of a 'model' or 'pathway' to follow. Ben G, and now Mesure, are the sort of peeps who might help exploit that the alternative has been our approach of trying to 'blend' a team of L1 pluggers to get us promoted, and then recruit a new team which might make it in the league above. It was time to try the modern way, I think. And it might require a few iterations Well put sir
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Post by swissgas on Sept 29, 2020 13:59:17 GMT
To answer the question it may be worth looking at the similarities between Ben and Wael. Both are passionate about football and both have been desperate to be significant in the football business. But neither is blessed with the exceptional natural ability which would have given them a fast direct route to a role of importance Ben spent fifteen years graduating from coaching youngsters to playing a peripheral supporting role to team managers and hoping to be asked to make the step up but then his career hit a brick wall. Wael presumably spent twenty years securing himself a minor role in Jordanian football while dreaming of making the transition from a boyhood Chelsea fan to a position of significance somewhere within the European game. The two men are limited in their ability to actually earn a place at the âtop tableâ but both are extremely adept at persuading others, and in particular the media, that they have exactly what is needed. Ben is able to bamboozle us with technicalities which we donât understand and so we instinctively assume that âif he knows this much he must be absolutely super- dooper with the mundane basics of football coachingâ. And Wael carries the calm manner of a well educated successful businessman so, without actually examining the detail of what he says, we are easily convinced that is what he is. The reality is that neither has any serious achievements to his name but, through âcredibility via associationâ for one and through family money for the other, both have been able to attain the significant role they covet. It may be that Ben and Wael are two similar personalities with comparable strengths and weaknesses who found an instant affinity when they were brought together. I think that's all incidental (which is one way of saying 'not very relevant') Wael arrived with (or developed in the first year here) a bit of a vision about how to make us a Championship club. That involves a few things, including but now limited to being based at a modern training ground, having varied income streams including via a good stadium, using modern techniques, developing players and selling them on, being led by a cohesive team on and off the pitch, and playing 'technical football' which will support progress in the league above Ben G fits that bill very well. Which doesn't mean he'll be a winning manager, but he fits the bill. Either Hamer or Starnes (probably Starnes, as it was coherent) explained that Cogs got the gig as he was the 'croysis, backs to the wall for a foight' manager (which he did probably loads better than anyone anticipated), whereas from 4th position the club felt they could make a more strategic appointment also, Wael has some contacts at Chelsea, and probably south-west London football more generally (hence the Bristol Rovers London thing), which provide something of a 'model' or 'pathway' to follow. Ben G, and now Mesure, are the sort of peeps who might help exploit that the alternative has been our approach of trying to 'blend' a team of L1 pluggers to get us promoted, and then recruit a new team which might make it in the league above. It was time to try the modern way, I think. And it might require a few iterations As I said ampg, both men are very adept at giving the impression that something is there, when in reality it's not.
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Post by a more piratey game on Sept 29, 2020 14:45:28 GMT
I think that's all incidental (which is one way of saying 'not very relevant') Wael arrived with (or developed in the first year here) a bit of a vision about how to make us a Championship club. That involves a few things, including but now limited to being based at a modern training ground, having varied income streams including via a good stadium, using modern techniques, developing players and selling them on, being led by a cohesive team on and off the pitch, and playing 'technical football' which will support progress in the league above Ben G fits that bill very well. Which doesn't mean he'll be a winning manager, but he fits the bill. Either Hamer or Starnes (probably Starnes, as it was coherent) explained that Cogs got the gig as he was the 'croysis, backs to the wall for a foight' manager (which he did probably loads better than anyone anticipated), whereas from 4th position the club felt they could make a more strategic appointment also, Wael has some contacts at Chelsea, and probably south-west London football more generally (hence the Bristol Rovers London thing), which provide something of a 'model' or 'pathway' to follow. Ben G, and now Mesure, are the sort of peeps who might help exploit that the alternative has been our approach of trying to 'blend' a team of L1 pluggers to get us promoted, and then recruit a new team which might make it in the league above. It was time to try the modern way, I think. And it might require a few iterations As I said ampg, both men are very adept at giving the impression that something is there, when in reality it's not. how very patronising swiss - implying that I've been taken in by them I think I am, to borrow from another thread, saying what I see. Your judgement of the two individuals, and their professional achievements (or lack of) still doesn't seem very relevant to me
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 14:48:52 GMT
What wael/garner and widdrington are trying to do is build a young team with a few experienced players. That is all there is to it. If garner fails somebody else will come in and try and make the strategy work.
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Post by swissgas on Sept 29, 2020 15:41:46 GMT
As I said ampg, both men are very adept at giving the impression that something is there, when in reality it's not. how very patronising swiss - implying that I've been taken in by them I think I am, to borrow from another thread, saying what I see. Your judgement of the two individuals, and their professional achievements (or lack of) still doesn't seem very relevant to me I don't mean to be patronising ampg, and willingly accept I could be wrong about this, but I do sincerely think you and many other Gasheads are being taken in. Wael arrived in 2016 with a vision. Apparently DC shared that vision so he remained as manager although nothing much changed in the way he managed the football club. After Darrell left in December 2018 Wael forgot about his vision and appointed Graham Coughlan as caretaker manager. In the Summer of 2019 he had the opportunity to thank Graham for his services and appoint a manager who shared his vision but he decided not to. Instead he appointed Graham, a man with a football vision at the opposite end of the spectrum to his own, as our permanent manager. Then, in December 2019, when Graham decided he'd had enough, Wael suddenly remembered his vision again and decided to appoint Ben Garner. With the best will in the world to say the football side of the club has been built around Wael's "vision" is just not credible. After 4 1/2 years isn't it clear that "the vision" is being used to try to hide the failure ?
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Post by a more piratey game on Sept 29, 2020 16:16:02 GMT
how very patronising swiss - implying that I've been taken in by them I think I am, to borrow from another thread, saying what I see. Your judgement of the two individuals, and their professional achievements (or lack of) still doesn't seem very relevant to me I don't mean to be patronising ampg, and willingly accept I could be wrong about this, but I do sincerely think you and many other Gasheads are being taken in. Wael arrived in 2016 with a vision. Apparently DC shared that vision so he remained as manager although nothing much changed in the way he managed the football club. After Darrell left in December 2018 Wael forgot about his vision and appointed Graham Coughlan as caretaker manager. In the Summer of 2019 he had the opportunity to thank Graham for his services and appoint a manager who shared his vision but he decided not to. Instead he appointed Graham, a man with a football vision at the opposite end of the spectrum to his own, as our permanent manager. Then, in December 2019, when Graham decided he'd had enough, Wael suddenly remembered his vision again and decided to appoint Ben Garner. With the best will in the world to say the football side of the club has been built around Wael's "vision" is just not credible.After 4 1/2 years isn't it clear that "the vision" is being used to try to hide the failure ? I don't think anyone's said that. I do think it is currently being built along the lines of that vision though. And, by jingo, it just might work!
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basel
Joined: May 2014
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Post by basel on Sept 29, 2020 16:32:33 GMT
What wael/garner and widdrington are trying to do is build a young team with a few experienced players. That is all there is to it. If garner fails somebody else will come in and try and make the strategy work. True.They're looking poor at the moment because WAQ judgement in hiring BG - a bloody awful manager -looks naive. I suppose Rovers are trying to do something like Crewe Alex successfully achieved with Dario Gradi. The sooner we get a new manager the better.
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Post by swissgas on Sept 29, 2020 17:07:18 GMT
I don't mean to be patronising ampg, and willingly accept I could be wrong about this, but I do sincerely think you and many other Gasheads are being taken in. Wael arrived in 2016 with a vision. Apparently DC shared that vision so he remained as manager although nothing much changed in the way he managed the football club. After Darrell left in December 2018 Wael forgot about his vision and appointed Graham Coughlan as caretaker manager. In the Summer of 2019 he had the opportunity to thank Graham for his services and appoint a manager who shared his vision but he decided not to. Instead he appointed Graham, a man with a football vision at the opposite end of the spectrum to his own, as our permanent manager. Then, in December 2019, when Graham decided he'd had enough, Wael suddenly remembered his vision again and decided to appoint Ben Garner. With the best will in the world to say the football side of the club has been built around Wael's "vision" is just not credible.After 4 1/2 years isn't it clear that "the vision" is being used to try to hide the failure ? I don't think anyone's said that. I do think it is currently being built along the lines of that vision though. And, by jingo, it just might work! I love the sentiment "by jingo it might just work" and for many years that would have been my attitude too. But despite knowingly coming across as an "old misery guts" or a "cynic" I can't help trying to provide some balance because what we are seeing is not, IMO, a good formula for business survival let alone success. Time after time, when failure is about to catch up with us, we strike out in a completely new unplanned direction while being carried along on the waves of Wael's money. That money has funded a truly awful business performance and now it is funding a truly awful football team performance but we still carry on. Epping questioned why Ben Garner was appointed and I think a look at the background of both men is highly relevant to why he was originally given the job and why he is still in it.
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Post by alloutofgas on Sept 29, 2020 17:30:12 GMT
I think I've posed this question before... but here goes again. Why did we give BG the job with a paper thin CV and no managerial experience (coaching aside)? Is there a personal tie with Wael that goes back to chelski / west London? If I'm wrong - fine. But I just can't see why he was in the frame when GC got the job, and why he was fast-tracked in when GC went post-Ipswich. An away win and Tom Nichols scored. Crikey. One to live long in the memory. To answer the question it may be worth looking at the similarities between Ben and Wael. Both are passionate about football and both have been desperate to be significant in the football business. But neither is blessed with the exceptional natural ability which would have given them a fast direct route  to a role of importance Ben spent fifteen years graduating from coaching youngsters to playing a peripheral supporting role to team managers and hoping to be asked to make the step up but then  his career hit a brick wall. Wael presumably spent twenty years securing himself a minor role in Jordanian football while dreaming of making the transition from a boyhood Chelsea fan to a position of significance somewhere within the European game. The two men are limited in their ability to actually earn a place at the âtop tableâ but both are extremely adept at persuading others, and in particular the media, that they have exactly what is needed. Ben is able to bamboozle us with technicalities which we donât understand and so we instinctively assume that âif he knows this much he must be absolutely super- dooper  with  the mundane basics of football coachingâ. And Wael carries the calm manner of a well educated successful businessman so, without actually examining the detail of what he says, we are easily convinced that is what he is. The reality is that neither has any serious achievements to his name but, through âcredibility via associationâ for one  and through family money for the other, both have been able to attain the significant role they covet. It may be that Ben and Wael are two similar personalities with comparable strengths and weaknesses who found an instant affinity when they were brought together. Yes, and in the meantime the pair of em are completely f**king us over.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 17:55:42 GMT
Language, AAOG!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 18:19:33 GMT
how very patronising swiss - implying that I've been taken in by them I think I am, to borrow from another thread, saying what I see. Your judgement of the two individuals, and their professional achievements (or lack of) still doesn't seem very relevant to me I don't mean to be patronising ampg, and willingly accept I could be wrong about this, but I do sincerely think you and many other Gasheads are being taken in. Wael arrived in 2016 with a vision. Apparently DC shared that vision so he remained as manager although nothing much changed in the way he managed the football club. After Darrell left in December 2018 Wael forgot about his vision and appointed Graham Coughlan as caretaker manager. In the Summer of 2019 he had the opportunity to thank Graham for his services and appoint a manager who shared his vision but he decided not to. Instead he appointed Graham, a man with a football vision at the opposite end of the spectrum to his own, as our permanent manager. Then, in December 2019, when Graham decided he'd had enough, Wael suddenly remembered his vision again and decided to appoint Ben Garner. With the best will in the world to say the football side of the club has been built around Wael's "vision" is just not credible. After 4 1/2 years isn't it clear that "the vision" is being used to try to hide the failure ? I think that is nonsense Swiss TBH. I think it may be factually incorrect, too, as I think you will find GC was appointed in the January, or around about that time? We needed saving from relegation, the supporters didnt want to hear of a long term vision at that time be it changed or not, we just needed to believe we would survive. GC did a bloody good job in that respect, so I would say that Wael did a bloody good job in that appointment too. Considering the strategy, are you challenging its validity? Would you say that, in our current position of having a ground with such limited income generation there is a better one? I know you know this, but you know that we cannot budget based on what income we generate because we will not be competitive. At the Mem that would mean a salary budget equivilant of Conf South. So we have to find another way to be competitive. So, a strategy of maximising income (where we can, and Tom does a bloody good job at that it looks to me) Try and develop young, saleable assets, both in the first team and in the academy. Have clearly defined salary structure for the playing staff Have a specific recruitment plan linked to the above & maximise contract value. No more expensive journeymen Develop an identity & playing/coaching philosophy throughout the whole club. Not miles different to that over at Ashton Gate I believe, only the numbers are hugely different and Lansdown took a few years and a few ÂŁ millions to hit on it. All sounds good to me. Our First Team Manager not working out yet though. If no improvement, First Team Manager changes, but strategy remains the same. Wael is doing a decent job given the constraints as I believe is Starnes and Gorringe. Don't know enough about Karim but no reason to doubt his attributes. Appointing Managers is fraught with difficulty. Were you still involved in the club when Martin Dobson was appointed? Sounded a good appointment at the time, was worth a go. It was a disaster as we know. Could end up being the same with BG if things don't turn round sharpish, doesn't mean the strategy is flawed, just the personnel.
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TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
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Post by TaiwanGas on Sept 29, 2020 18:40:07 GMT
I don't mean to be patronising ampg, and willingly accept I could be wrong about this, but I do sincerely think you and many other Gasheads are being taken in. Wael arrived in 2016 with a vision. Apparently DC shared that vision so he remained as manager although nothing much changed in the way he managed the football club. After Darrell left in December 2018 Wael forgot about his vision and appointed Graham Coughlan as caretaker manager. In the Summer of 2019 he had the opportunity to thank Graham for his services and appoint a manager who shared his vision but he decided not to. Instead he appointed Graham, a man with a football vision at the opposite end of the spectrum to his own, as our permanent manager. Then, in December 2019, when Graham decided he'd had enough, Wael suddenly remembered his vision again and decided to appoint Ben Garner. With the best will in the world to say the football side of the club has been built around Wael's "vision" is just not credible. After 4 1/2 years isn't it clear that "the vision" is being used to try to hide the failure ? I think that is nonsense Swiss TBH. I think it may be factually incorrect, too, as I think you will find GC was appointed in the January, or around about that time? We needed saving from relegation, the supporters didnt want to hear of a long term vision at that time be it changed or not, we just needed to believe we would survive. GC did a bloody good job in that respect, so I would say that Wael did a bloody good job in that appointment too. Considering the strategy, are you challenging its validity? Would you say that, in our current position of having a ground with such limited income generation there is a better one? I know you know this, but you know that we cannot budget based on what income we generate because we will not be competitive. At the Mem that would mean a salary budget equivilant of Conf South. So we have to find another way to be competitive. So, a strategy of maximising income (where we can, and Tom does a bloody good job at that it looks to me) Try and develop young, saleable assets, both in the first team and in the academy. Have clearly defined salary structure for the playing staff Have a specific recruitment plan linked to the above & maximise contract value. No more expensive journeymen Develop an identity & playing/coaching philosophy throughout the whole club. Not miles different to that over at Ashton Gate I believe, only the numbers are hugely different and Lansdown took a few years and a few ÂŁ millions to hit on it. All sounds good to me. Our First Team Manager not working out yet though. If no improvement, First Team Manager changes, but strategy remains the same. Wael is doing a decent job given the constraints as I believe is Starnes and Gorringe. Don't know enough about Karim but no reason to doubt his attributes. Appointing Managers is fraught with difficulty. Were you still involved in the club when Martin Dobson was appointed? Sounded a good appointment at the time, was worth a go. It was a disaster as we know. Could end up being the same with BG if things don't turn round sharpish, doesn't mean the strategy is flawed, just the personnel. Dobson's Managerial record and BG's are stat similar, the main difference being we had the good sense to know it was not going to work after 12 games with Dobson.
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Sept 29, 2020 19:11:07 GMT
I don't think anyone's said that. I do think it is currently being built along the lines of that vision though. And, by jingo, it just might work! I love the sentiment "by jingo it might just work" and for many years that would have been my attitude too. But despite knowingly coming across as an "old misery guts" or a "cynic" I can't help trying to provide some balance because what we are seeing is not, IMO, a good formula for business survival let alone success. Time after time, when failure is about to catch up with us, we strike out in a completely new unplanned direction while being carried along on the waves of Wael's money. That money has funded a truly awful business performance and now it is funding a truly awful football team performance but we still carry on. Epping questioned why Ben Garner was appointed and I think a look at the background of both men is highly relevant to why he was originally given the job and why he is still in it. I'm with you Swiss, and think there may be something in your theory of two kindred spirits finding each other. From my perspective, football is a simple game. Coughlan simplified things for the players so that they all knew their jobs, and we were starting to look like a really united and hard to beat team. Opponents would have hated playing us (Lambert's Ipswich being case in point) and although I didn't like the football, it reminded me in lot of ways of Gerry's first stint with us. We were becoming a team that did not know how to lose. Benny has changed all that. He is overcomplicating things and lacks the nous to change his experiments when they don't work (4-2-2-2 in the home game vs Donny being case in point). He looks totally out of his depth to me. APMG may well be right that there is a modern philosophy and vision for the club being applied here, but Benny clearly is out of his depth where it really counts - on the field of play. The right manager would be able to make this work by simplifying not overcomplicating things - the Cowley brothers had a similar philosophy at Lincoln and built that up from next to nothing, and seem to have left the club in a better place after moving on. Whilst the likes of APMG may be saying things as they see them, and want to see how the ride goes, I too think they have bought the vision in the face of a very different reality. Whilst I get the logic in trying to grow saleable assets, every side needs a good sprinkling of experience, usually at the core of the side to be successful. I'd argue that Gradi had this at Crewe as well as the gifted next generation, and even Benny hasn't totally walked away from this with the likes of Jaakola, Little, Upson etc. Perhaps we just don't have the ones with the winner's mentality that the likes of Craig, Manse, Monkhouse, Brown etc had in the past.
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knowall
Joined: August 2019
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Post by knowall on Sept 29, 2020 19:15:26 GMT
As I said ampg, both men are very adept at giving the impression that something is there, when in reality it's not. how very patronising swiss - implying that I've been taken in by them I think I am, to borrow from another thread, saying what I see. Your judgement of the two individuals, and their professional achievements (or lack of) still doesn't seem very relevant to me Oh dear - someone has a different view on things to you and that is 'patronising' best tell your Dad and he will sort him out! Sad piratey sad,
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Post by swissgas on Sept 29, 2020 19:33:51 GMT
I don't mean to be patronising ampg, and willingly accept I could be wrong about this, but I do sincerely think you and many other Gasheads are being taken in. Wael arrived in 2016 with a vision. Apparently DC shared that vision so he remained as manager although nothing much changed in the way he managed the football club. After Darrell left in December 2018 Wael forgot about his vision and appointed Graham Coughlan as caretaker manager. In the Summer of 2019 he had the opportunity to thank Graham for his services and appoint a manager who shared his vision but he decided not to. Instead he appointed Graham, a man with a football vision at the opposite end of the spectrum to his own, as our permanent manager. Then, in December 2019, when Graham decided he'd had enough, Wael suddenly remembered his vision again and decided to appoint Ben Garner. With the best will in the world to say the football side of the club has been built around Wael's "vision" is just not credible. After 4 1/2 years isn't it clear that "the vision" is being used to try to hide the failure ? I think that is nonsense Swiss TBH. I think it may be factually incorrect, too, as I think you will find GC was appointed in the January, or around about that time? We needed saving from relegation, the supporters didnt want to hear of a long term vision at that time be it changed or not, we just needed to believe we would survive. GC did a bloody good job in that respect, so I would say that Wael did a bloody good job in that appointment too. Considering the strategy, are you challenging its validity? Would you say that, in our current position of having a ground with such limited income generation there is a better one? I know you know this, but you know that we cannot budget based on what income we generate because we will not be competitive. At the Mem that would mean a salary budget equivilant of Conf South. So we have to find another way to be competitive. So, a strategy of maximising income (where we can, and Tom does a bloody good job at that it looks to me) Try and develop young, saleable assets, both in the first team and in the academy. Have clearly defined salary structure for the playing staff Have a specific recruitment plan linked to the above & maximise contract value. No more expensive journeymen Develop an identity & playing/coaching philosophy throughout the whole club. Not miles different to that over at Ashton Gate I believe, only the numbers are hugely different and Lansdown took a few years and a few ÂŁ millions to hit on it. All sounds good to me. Our First Team Manager not working out yet though. If no improvement, First Team Manager changes, but strategy remains the same. Wael is doing a decent job given the constraints as I believe is Starnes and Gorringe. Don't know enough about Karim but no reason to doubt his attributes. Appointing Managers is fraught with difficulty. Were you still involved in the club when Martin Dobson was appointed? Sounded a good appointment at the time, was worth a go. It was a disaster as we know. Could end up being the same with BG if things don't turn round sharpish, doesn't mean the strategy is flawed, just the personnel. Yes, you are right, Graham Coughlan was appointed in January, but it doesn't invalidate the point about his vision being diametrically opposed to Wael's. And what you say tends to confirm that the "vision" strategy is brought in and out as required. But it is appreciated that you have taken the time to expand on ampg's list of what you think the "vision" is. The problem for me is that this "vision" is nothing new and is what every football club, including Rovers, has always sought to do. All clubs try to maximise income but, as we touched on previously, the problem is that we can only go on a gut feeling that Rovers net income is being maximized because no one has given us numbers. We haven't developed and sold any young assets for the past four years so I guess that part started in December 2019 ? The clearly defined salary structure and "no more expensive journeyman" is frequently wafted in the air but how do Ehmer and Baldwin fit into that ? I suppose the answer is, as it always is, that we must sometimes break the golden rule to bring in a bit of experience which effectively means we continue to go round and round in circles. Developing a playing and coaching philosophy throughout the club so that managers can come and go without disruption to the playing style is something which sounds good, we don't know if it will work, but I agree that this an inexpensive strategy which is worth a try. And apart from supplying money how is Wael doing a good job ? We don't hear much from him and the accounts and league table tell a much different story. There is nothing novel or innovative about the "vision" or "strategy" it is merely copying what other clubs, including Rovers, have always done. But it serves the purpose of diverting fans attention away from the failure and gives us a "get out clause". We have the comfort of knowing that the players, managers, coaches and backroom staff may all fail, we may even get relegated, but our owners "vision" remains constant and so long as he has cash to put into Rovers there may come a time in the future when we shall enjoy success. I am challenging the strategy, for me the only viable strategy the club can adopt is to actively seek outside investment and expertise with the aim of securing a new stadium for Rovers before it is too late.
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Post by a more piratey game on Sept 29, 2020 19:49:14 GMT
how very patronising swiss - implying that I've been taken in by them I think I am, to borrow from another thread, saying what I see. Your judgement of the two individuals, and their professional achievements (or lack of) still doesn't seem very relevant to me Oh dear - someone has a different view on things to you and that is 'patronising' best tell your Dad and he will sort him out! Sad piratey sad, The poorly-mannered one is back! To tell us how many members the (wish I were) President Club has got?
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