TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,349
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Post by TaiwanGas on Mar 29, 2020 17:42:11 GMT
this bit hasn't materialised yet though Last November seems like a lifetime ago now doesn’t it. I tried to bring the Fruit Market plan to the fore at that time because there was enough evidence to show it was “real” and it seemed a chance for Rovers to finally break out of the mediocrity we are mired in by partnering with some serious players and eventually putting ourselves in a position to compete with City again. My concern was that the plan would fade away without it being properly examined and debated and that is exactly what has happened. My constant pushing of the subject prompted a lot of people to get in touch and through this I learned a great deal more about things which were happening around Rovers during the early months of the year. Anxious to try to help I did speak to some people here in the US about Rovers and again learned a lot. There is definitely an appetite for wealthy international investors to look at European lower league clubs because of the lucrative benefits associated with worldwide TV exposure. And they are seriously attracted by taking a scientific approach to both the football and marketing side of the clubs they target. I was told of experiments ongoing with US owned clubs in Scandinavia and even Dundalk FC in Ireland (average crowds 3000) being owned by associates of the people I was speaking to because of the potential offered by their participation in European competitions. But as for interest in Rovers it was a resounding NO. For these people and I’m sure many others the desire is to develop a football club not build infrastructure. And because there are sufficient clubs on the market which already have adequate infrastructure I am afraid, without something big like the Fruit Market to attract them, the types of investors which could seriously transform our club will not be looking at Rovers. Fully understandable, and as you say, a sufficient quantity of 'turn key' clubs positioned far better for investment than Rovers leaves us well down the picking league. Now Wael is out on his own, it will be interesting to see what vision and plan he has for the future of the club, other than the sustainability model, at least the guessing game over who does and pays for what in the AQ family appears fairly transparent now.
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Post by swissgas on Mar 29, 2020 17:45:47 GMT
Last November seems like a lifetime ago now doesn’t it. I tried to bring the Fruit Market plan to the fore at that time because there was enough evidence to show it was “real” and it seemed a chance for Rovers to finally break out of the mediocrity we are mired in by partnering with some serious players and eventually putting ourselves in a position to compete with City again. My concern was that the plan would fade away without it being properly examined and debated and that is exactly what has happened. My constant pushing of the subject prompted a lot of people to get in touch and through this I learned a great deal more about things which were happening around Rovers during the early months of the year. Anxious to try to help I did speak to some people here in the US about Rovers and again learned a lot. There is definitely an appetite for wealthy international investors to look at European lower league clubs because of the lucrative benefits associated with worldwide TV exposure. And they are seriously attracted by taking a scientific approach to both the football and marketing side of the clubs they target. I was told of experiments ongoing with US owned clubs in Scandinavia and even Dundalk FC in Ireland (average crowds 3000) being owned by associates of the people I was speaking to because of the potential offered by their participation in European competitions. But as for interest in Rovers it was a resounding NO. For these people and I’m sure many others the desire is to develop a football club not build infrastructure. And because there are sufficient clubs on the market which already have adequate infrastructure I am afraid, without something big like the Fruit Market to attract them, the types of investors which could seriously transform our club will not be looking at Rovers. Problem is that we have no idea what Rovers would have to give up for the FM to come to fruition, I guess in the past Coventry fans thought the Ricoh Stadium was a great opportunity, now they are £60m in debt with no stadium and you do wonder whether they'll survive CV given their pension fund owners will have taken a massive hit from the worldwide stock market falls. What company is going to buy the land and build a football stadium w/o getting a massive payback in return, if they were prospective owners it may be an interesting proposition but it seems all they see the FM and Rovers is as an investment opportunity. We don’t have the full story and that’s what I found so surprising. Once the Mayor went public I should have thought there would have been a big clamor from Rovers fans demanding to know more. But instead we spent more time on the forums listing reasons why it wouldn’t work and the eventual consensus was that if these developers wanted us they would darned well have to come and get us. Crazy really given the position we are in but it appears the heart has been ripped out of the fan base after so many years of disappointment.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,161
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 29, 2020 18:00:14 GMT
this bit hasn't materialised yet though Last November seems like a lifetime ago now doesn’t it. I tried to bring the Fruit Market plan to the fore at that time because there was enough evidence to show it was “real” and it seemed a chance for Rovers to finally break out of the mediocrity we are mired in by partnering with some serious players and eventually putting ourselves in a position to compete with City again. My concern was that the plan would fade away without it being properly examined and debated and that is exactly what has happened. My constant pushing of the subject prompted a lot of people to get in touch and through this I learned a great deal more about things which were happening around Rovers during the early months of the year. Anxious to try to help I did speak to some people here in the US about Rovers and again learned a lot. There is definitely an appetite for wealthy international investors to look at European lower league clubs because of the lucrative benefits associated with worldwide TV exposure. And they are seriously attracted by taking a scientific approach to both the football and marketing side of the clubs they target. I was told of experiments ongoing with US owned clubs in Scandinavia and even Dundalk FC in Ireland (average crowds 3000) being owned by associates of the people I was speaking to because of the potential offered by their participation in European competitions. But as for interest in Rovers it was a resounding NO. For these people and I’m sure many others the desire is to develop a football club not build infrastructure. And because there are sufficient clubs on the market which already have adequate infrastructure I am afraid, without something big like the Fruit Market to attract them, the types of investors which could seriously transform our club will not be looking at Rovers. As ever - great comment swissgas, and appreciated. So what is the way forward? Can't we just be more like this? Sorry to bang on about it - but Union Berlin. 3mins 48 secs of your valuable time. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/50267677We need to adopt a totally different mentality / business model. The old approach was dead long before CV. "There is no 'the club - the team - the fans' - they are not separate - it's just one".
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 18:07:38 GMT
Problem is that we have no idea what Rovers would have to give up for the FM to come to fruition, I guess in the past Coventry fans thought the Ricoh Stadium was a great opportunity, now they are £60m in debt with no stadium and you do wonder whether they'll survive CV given their pension fund owners will have taken a massive hit from the worldwide stock market falls. What company is going to buy the land and build a football stadium w/o getting a massive payback in return, if they were prospective owners it may be an interesting proposition but it seems all they see the FM and Rovers is as an investment opportunity. We don’t have the full story and that’s what I found so surprising. Once the Mayor went public I should have thought there would have been a big clamor from Rovers fans demanding to know more. But instead we spent more time on the forums listing reasons why it wouldn’t work and the eventual consensus was that if these developers wanted us they would darned well have to come and get us. Crazy really given the position we are in but it appears the heart has been ripped out of the fan base after so many years of disappointment. Developers never wanted Rovers, they just want their PP for the entire area, then the shenanigans would have started and somehow the stadium plan would have been dropped in favour of something that made money. PP now granted for the Arena development on Filton Airfield. FM was nothing but a pipe dream. Amazed so many people took it seriously.
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Post by a more piratey game on Mar 29, 2020 18:36:56 GMT
We don’t have the full story and that’s what I found so surprising. Once the Mayor went public I should have thought there would have been a big clamor from Rovers fans demanding to know more. But instead we spent more time on the forums listing reasons why it wouldn’t work and the eventual consensus was that if these developers wanted us they would darned well have to come and get us. Crazy really given the position we are in but it appears the heart has been ripped out of the fan base after so many years of disappointment. Developers never wanted Rovers, they just want their PP for the entire area, then the shenanigans would have started and somehow the stadium plan would have been dropped in favour of something that made money. PP now granted for the Arena development on Filton Airfield. FM was nothing but a pipe dream. Amazed so many people took it seriously. if this is true, then fair play to Marvin for trying to shoe-horn in a stadium for Rovers
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Post by a more piratey game on Mar 29, 2020 19:44:33 GMT
Developers never wanted Rovers, they just want their PP for the entire area, then the shenanigans would have started and somehow the stadium plan would have been dropped in favour of something that made money. PP now granted for the Arena development on Filton Airfield. FM was nothing but a pipe dream. Amazed so many people took it seriously. if this is true, then fair play to Marvin for trying to shoe-horn in a stadium for Rovers It would also explain Marvin's alleged frustration that 'various configurations of the club' discussions have not reached a landing
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 19:50:40 GMT
Developers never wanted Rovers, they just want their PP for the entire area, then the shenanigans would have started and somehow the stadium plan would have been dropped in favour of something that made money. PP now granted for the Arena development on Filton Airfield. FM was nothing but a pipe dream. Amazed so many people took it seriously. if this is true, then fair play to Marvin for trying to shoe-horn in a stadium for Rovers Never mind, he still has that huge flattened area by the old Post Office site, opposite Fowlers, to build his arena on.
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Post by swissgas on Mar 29, 2020 20:47:23 GMT
Last November seems like a lifetime ago now doesn’t it. I tried to bring the Fruit Market plan to the fore at that time because there was enough evidence to show it was “real” and it seemed a chance for Rovers to finally break out of the mediocrity we are mired in by partnering with some serious players and eventually putting ourselves in a position to compete with City again. My concern was that the plan would fade away without it being properly examined and debated and that is exactly what has happened. My constant pushing of the subject prompted a lot of people to get in touch and through this I learned a great deal more about things which were happening around Rovers during the early months of the year. Anxious to try to help I did speak to some people here in the US about Rovers and again learned a lot. There is definitely an appetite for wealthy international investors to look at European lower league clubs because of the lucrative benefits associated with worldwide TV exposure. And they are seriously attracted by taking a scientific approach to both the football and marketing side of the clubs they target. I was told of experiments ongoing with US owned clubs in Scandinavia and even Dundalk FC in Ireland (average crowds 3000) being owned by associates of the people I was speaking to because of the potential offered by their participation in European competitions. But as for interest in Rovers it was a resounding NO. For these people and I’m sure many others the desire is to develop a football club not build infrastructure. And because there are sufficient clubs on the market which already have adequate infrastructure I am afraid, without something big like the Fruit Market to attract them, the types of investors which could seriously transform our club will not be looking at Rovers. As ever - great comment swissgas, and appreciated. So what is the way forward? Can't we just be more like this? Sorry to bang on about it - but Union Berlin. 3mins 48 secs of your valuable time. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/50267677We need to adopt a totally different mentality / business model. The old approach was dead long before CV. "There is no 'the club - the team - the fans' - they are not separate - it's just one". The Union Berlin concept is one Gasheads should be able to embrace. I’ve alway thought of us as a bit anti-establishment and even in our heyday there was a big difference in culture between us and City. If we ever want to compete with City again we need to capitalize on those culture differences and turn them to our advantage. And I do believe many people in the Bristol area, including Marvin Rees, want Rovers to succeed and are thoroughly disappointed by the meek acceptance of mediocrity and failure with which the club has been infected. Theoretically, if he had chosen to, Wael should have been in a good position to lead us in this fan driven ownership direction but over the past four years he has shown he has absolutely no leadership qualities at all. Some fans seeing that sentence will say “ah, but he has been hamstrung by Hani, now things will change”. But read through yesterday’s statement again and I think you will see that he really has no idea what to do to get out of the mess he has created. He is throwing out the same old lines about youth development, sustainability, ongoing discussions etc and is now trying to invoke the community spirit for an entity which he previously described as a private family business. I don’t know how he got on at Westminster School and Boston University but based on the ability he has shown so far in managing BRFC he would have been bottom of the class during my time at South Bristol Technical College. To me the statement yesterday was more scary than the accounts ! What he needs to do now is bring in some serious quality people to advise him and listen to what they say. Your idea about the Union Berlin model is a good one Epping but it needs people with knowledge and experience, like Kieran Maguire, to look at it in detail and see if it is feasible for Rovers. It needs financial advisors of the Grant Thornton (not Yeovil Town) caliber to come in and work out a detailed projection of how much cash will be needed to finance such a project. And then proper transparent liaison with fans to consider the plan, add to it and improve it based on fan input. Finally it needs proper professional PR to communicate the plan to the wider fan base and local community to get everyone on board and “moving in the same direction”. But I think we’ve been here before haven’t we ?
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TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,349
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Post by TaiwanGas on Mar 29, 2020 21:11:34 GMT
if this is true, then fair play to Marvin for trying to shoe-horn in a stadium for Rovers Never mind, he still has that huge flattened area by the old Post Office site, opposite Fowlers, to build his arena on. That land already owned by a Bristol University (not sure which one) planning for student accomodation, bar's, cafe, and so on, so I am led to believe.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 21:23:20 GMT
Never mind, he still has that huge flattened area by the old Post Office site, opposite Fowlers, to build his arena on. That land already owned by a Bristol University (not sure which one) planning for student accomodation, bars, cafe, and so on, so I am led to believe. Poor Marvin. Looks like he's going to struggle to be the Mayor who finally delivers the Arena.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 29, 2020 23:00:35 GMT
As ever - great comment swissgas, and appreciated. So what is the way forward? Can't we just be more like this? Sorry to bang on about it - but Union Berlin. 3mins 48 secs of your valuable time. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/50267677We need to adopt a totally different mentality / business model. The old approach was dead long before CV. "There is no 'the club - the team - the fans' - they are not separate - it's just one". The Union Berlin concept is one Gasheads should be able to embrace. I’ve alway thought of us as a bit anti-establishment and even in our heyday there was a big difference in culture between us and City. If we ever want to compete with City again we need to capitalize on those culture differences and turn them to our advantage. And I do believe many people in the Bristol area, including Marvin Rees, want Rovers to succeed and are thoroughly disappointed by the meek acceptance of mediocrity and failure with which the club has been infected. Theoretically, if he had chosen to, Wael should have been in a good position to lead us in this fan driven ownership direction but over the past four years he has shown he has absolutely no leadership qualities at all. Some fans seeing that sentence will say “ah, but he has been hamstrung by Hani, now things will change”. But read through yesterday’s statement again and I think you will see that he really has no idea what to do to get out of the mess he has created. He is throwing out the same old lines about youth development, sustainability, ongoing discussions etc and is now trying to invoke the community spirit for an entity which he previously described as a private family business. I don’t know how he got on at Westminster School and Boston University but based on the ability he has shown so far in managing BRFC he would have been bottom of the class during my time at South Bristol Technical College. To me the statement yesterday was more scary than the accounts ! What he needs to do now is bring in some serious quality people to advise him and listen to what they say. Your idea about the Union Berlin model is a good one Epping but it needs people with knowledge and experience, like Kieran Maguire, to look at it in detail and see if it is feasible for Rovers. It needs financial advisors of the Grant Thornton (not Yeovil Town) caliber to come in and work out a detailed projection of how much cash will be needed to finance such a project. And then proper transparent liaison with fans to consider the plan, add to it and improve it based on fan input. Finally it needs proper professional PR to communicate the plan to the wider fan base and local community to get everyone on board and “moving in the same direction”. But I think we’ve been here before haven’t we ? Union were in the 4th tier of German football as recently as 2005-6 with average gates of 5,900. They now have around 28,000 members paying 10 Euros a month, just to be a member. Capacity (mostly terracing) is around 22,000. I don't actually care what level of football Rovers end up playing, as long as we are sustainable, and retain our culture. When Union were close to getting to promoted to the Bundesliga for the first time in their history a couple of years ago, they unfurled banners: "Sheisse, wir steigen auf" (Oh sh*t, we're going up"). Their supporters were stating that the culture and identity of THEIR Football Club was far more important than the league position. THAT is what I identify with (sadly more so now than I do with Bristol Rovers FC. Sat here in my green and yellow away quarters from 92-93 - typing at midnight).
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Post by a more piratey game on Mar 29, 2020 23:10:58 GMT
When Union were close to getting to promoted to the Bundesliga for the first time in their history a couple of years ago, they unfurled banners: "Sheisse, wir steigen auf" (Oh sh*t, we're going up").
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Post by a more piratey game on Mar 29, 2020 23:12:30 GMT
What he needs to do now is bring in some serious quality people to advise him and listen to what they say noooooo!!!!!!!! we've spent millions on this already
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Post by swissgas on Mar 29, 2020 23:22:52 GMT
What he needs to do now is bring in some serious quality people to advise him and listen to what they say noooooo!!!!!!!! we've spent millions on this already Nick Higgs spent millions chasing his dream. Wael Al-Qadi spent millions but I don’t think he really understood why. Colin Sexstone cost very little but helped get Nick off the hook and Wael onto it.
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womble
Arthur Cartlidge
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 300
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Post by womble on Mar 30, 2020 6:49:02 GMT
That land already owned by a Bristol University (not sure which one) planning for student accomodation, bars, cafe, and so on, so I am led to believe. Poor Marvin. Looks like he's going to struggle to be the Mayor who finally delivers the Arena. Marvin is relying on YTL to deliver an arena at Filton. It was the Mayor who canned the idea of an arena at Temple Meads. The land is still owned by the council and Marvin is hoping Legal and General will deliver a mixed use scheme on it. Bristol University own the Post Office sorting site as well as the part of Arena, now Temple, Island that wasn’t lined up for the arena.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2020 13:26:23 GMT
Poor Marvin. Looks like he's going to struggle to be the Mayor who finally delivers the Arena. Marvin is relying on YTL to deliver an arena at Filton. It was the Mayor who canned the idea of an arena at Temple Meads. The land is still owned by the council and Marvin is hoping Legal and General will deliver a mixed use scheme on it. Bristol University own the Post Office sorting site as well as the part of Arena, now Temple, Island that wasn’t lined up for the arena. In what way are YTL's plans anything at all to do with Marvin? That sounds a bit pointed and rude, it's not supposed to be, I'm just struggling to see why it's anything at all to do with him.
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irishrover
Global Moderator
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Post by irishrover on Mar 30, 2020 13:27:45 GMT
The Union Berlin concept is one Gasheads should be able to embrace. I’ve alway thought of us as a bit anti-establishment and even in our heyday there was a big difference in culture between us and City. If we ever want to compete with City again we need to capitalize on those culture differences and turn them to our advantage. And I do believe many people in the Bristol area, including Marvin Rees, want Rovers to succeed and are thoroughly disappointed by the meek acceptance of mediocrity and failure with which the club has been infected. Theoretically, if he had chosen to, Wael should have been in a good position to lead us in this fan driven ownership direction but over the past four years he has shown he has absolutely no leadership qualities at all. Some fans seeing that sentence will say “ah, but he has been hamstrung by Hani, now things will change”. But read through yesterday’s statement again and I think you will see that he really has no idea what to do to get out of the mess he has created. He is throwing out the same old lines about youth development, sustainability, ongoing discussions etc and is now trying to invoke the community spirit for an entity which he previously described as a private family business. I don’t know how he got on at Westminster School and Boston University but based on the ability he has shown so far in managing BRFC he would have been bottom of the class during my time at South Bristol Technical College. To me the statement yesterday was more scary than the accounts ! What he needs to do now is bring in some serious quality people to advise him and listen to what they say. Your idea about the Union Berlin model is a good one Epping but it needs people with knowledge and experience, like Kieran Maguire, to look at it in detail and see if it is feasible for Rovers. It needs financial advisors of the Grant Thornton (not Yeovil Town) caliber to come in and work out a detailed projection of how much cash will be needed to finance such a project. And then proper transparent liaison with fans to consider the plan, add to it and improve it based on fan input. Finally it needs proper professional PR to communicate the plan to the wider fan base and local community to get everyone on board and “moving in the same direction”. But I think we’ve been here before haven’t we ? Union were in the 4th tier of German football as recently as 2005-6 with average gates of 5,900. They now have around 28,000 members paying 10 Euros a month, just to be a member. Capacity (mostly terracing) is around 22,000. I don't actually care what level of football Rovers end up playing, as long as we are sustainable, and retain our culture. When Union were close to getting to promoted to the Bundesliga for the first time in their history a couple of years ago, they unfurled banners: "Sheisse, wir steigen auf" (Oh sh*t, we're going up"). Their supporters were stating that the culture and identity of THEIR Football Club was far more important than the league position. THAT is what I identify with (sadly more so now than I do with Bristol Rovers FC. Sat here in my green and yellow away quarters from 92-93 - typing at midnight). You can look at FC United as a smaller scale UK model of that. But that was based on a breakaway from a massive club and a major incident dislocating its supporters. People say 'Rovers support is passive' but I don't think it's a thing that's specific to Rovers. It's about the culture of British football compared with other countries. That whole - 'club-team-fans' differential is something that has always existed here in a way it doesn't elsewhere. There's always an 'owner/board' to moan about, a team of players who either idols or wasters and a fanbase that is somehow both pure in spirit and completely apathetic. It's the way English football works. While I'm a 'fan' of FC United it has been a victim of some of this underlying culture. You still get people who refer to the FC United board as 'them' despite part owning the club - they still want an ownership to moan about as if they are powerless despite the fact they are not. They still lost fans because they didn't perform as expected on the pitch (despite in theory that being secondary). It's such an engrained mentality. Couple that to the way social media magnifies people's sense of entitlement and distance from the players and you have an issue getting anything like this off the ground. I'm amazed how many people out there who profess to be football fans seem to actively dislike footballers. Seems like a self-hating cycle to me but ho-hum.....
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Post by a more piratey game on Mar 30, 2020 14:26:36 GMT
You still get people who refer to the FC United board as 'them' despite part owning the club - they still want an ownership to moan about as if they are powerless despite the fact they are not. They still lost fans because they didn't perform as expected on the pitch (despite in theory that being secondary). It's such an engrained mentality. Couple that to the way social media magnifies people's sense of entitlement and distance from the players do you think it is to any extent a personality thing irish - eg those that moan most are those that are used to having less influence over their own life?
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Mar 30, 2020 15:38:36 GMT
You still get people who refer to the FC United board as 'them' despite part owning the club - they still want an ownership to moan about as if they are powerless despite the fact they are not. They still lost fans because they didn't perform as expected on the pitch (despite in theory that being secondary). It's such an engrained mentality. Couple that to the way social media magnifies people's sense of entitlement and distance from the players do you think it is to any extent a personality thing irish - eg those that moan most are those that are used to having less influence over their own life? Well we're in the realm of pseudo history meets quack psychology here but I'd argue it's more of an institutional culture thing than about individual motivation. I think you could just about espouse the following theory - professional football was generally (though not quite everywhere) the game of the industrial working class. The UK working class was (embarrasingly massive generalisation coming) generally less radical, more small 'c' conservative and more deferential than most of its European cousins particularly in Germany, Spain and Italy. So probably happier to accept the 'club-team-fans' division Epping mentioned above. It is often theorised (contentiously) that this is because the British working class had experienced somewhat better (though still pretty bad overall) living and working conditions due to our industrial revolution taking place over a much longer period of time than other countries and our Democracy being more secure and well developed. The perfect scenario is thus created for an institutionalised culture of apathetic moaning and that culture has a long tail. We don't like the boss but he's still the boss etc.
I remember reading an interesting article during the Iraq War where someone had interviewed US soldiers about their views on UK soldiers - generally the Americans were impressed and surprised at how effective and skilled British soldiers were but to a man they were shocked at how cynical, distrusting of their superiors and pessimistic the British troops were. The message was clear- the Americans believed and trusted in what their superiors and political leaders told them and used it to motivate themselves, the British soldiers didn't believe a word either politicians or their commanding officers said but did it all anyway; the Americans simply couldn't understand how professional soldiers could have such apparent lack of faith in their actions. Now there might be more holes in this theory than a swiss cheese factory but I think I prefer it to the idea that Rovers fans are somehow exceptionally apathetic. I'd argue that English football fans as a rule are only spurred into action by extreme circumstances (see Rovers fans at Twerton for classic example - and good argument for why we're not any more apathetic than anyone else).
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 30, 2020 16:22:52 GMT
do you think it is to any extent a personality thing irish - eg those that moan most are those that are used to having less influence over their own life? Well we're in the realm of pseudo history meets quack psychology here but I'd argue it's more of an institutional culture thing than about individual motivation. I think you could just about espouse the following theory - professional football was generally (though not quite everywhere) the game of the industrial working class. The UK working class was (embarrasingly massive generalisation coming) generally less radical, more small 'c' conservative and more deferential than most of its European cousins particularly in Germany, Spain and Italy. So probably happier to accept the 'club-team-fans' division Epping mentioned above. It is often theorised (contentiously) that this is because the British working class had experienced somewhat better (though still pretty bad overall) living and working conditions due to our industrial revolution taking place over a much longer period of time than other countries and our Democracy being more secure and well developed. The perfect scenario is thus created for an institutionalised culture of apathetic moaning and that culture has a long tail. We don't like the boss but he's still the boss etc.
I remember reading an interesting article during the Iraq War where someone had interviewed US soldiers about their views on UK soldiers - generally the Americans were impressed and surprised at how effective and skilled British soldiers were but to a man they were shocked at how cynical, distrusting of their superiors and pessimistic the British troops were. The message was clear- the Americans believed and trusted in what their superiors and political leaders told them and used it to motivate themselves, the British soldiers didn't believe a word either politicians or their commanding officers said but did it all anyway; the Americans simply couldn't understand how professional soldiers could have such apparent lack of faith in their actions. Now there might be more holes in this theory than a swiss cheese factory but I think I prefer it to the idea that Rovers fans are somehow exceptionally apathetic. I'd argue that English football fans as a rule are only spurred into action by extreme circumstances (see Rovers fans at Twerton for classic example - and good argument for why we're not any more apathetic than anyone else).
Damn - sounds like we're not even the best at being apathetic
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