Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 0:43:20 GMT
Renting is fine,what could possibly go wrong?
Renting at the fruit market would finish us off in pretty time in my view.
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Post by swissgas on Nov 30, 2019 0:43:43 GMT
Very interesting viewpoint Swiss, has the incredible unprompted radio interview last August in Blackpool scuppered the fruit market deal and blown a real chance of a proper stadium being built at last for Rovers. You mention "chancers" in earlier posts, are they now circling the club like vultures in the hope something comes their way in desperation. On the face of it they look like “chancers” yet in February 2016 Wael looked anything but a ”chancer” and that didn’t turn out as we expected. I’ve used the term “cobbled together” to describe a deal which might be done to accommodate someone who is desperate to get into football and someone who is desperate to stay in it. The primary purpose of such a deal would be to satisfy the individuals concerned whereas the UWE Stadium deal and, I suspect, the Fruit Market deal were both bold adventurous projects with the prime purpose clearly being to provide a proper stadium for Rovers. To me it it would be disappointing if Rovers fans let the Fruit Market plan fade away, as we did with the UWE plan, purely on Wael’s say so.
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Post by droitwichgas on Nov 30, 2019 11:19:01 GMT
Wasn't that a similar plan to Coventry's when they sold Highfield Rd and moved to the Ricoh Areana, what could possibly go wrong? Given the ALQ's have a win, win situation, they get rid of Rovers and make some money from the Mem sale then why didn't they proceed? From what I know of the Coventry situation they were losing money heavily and couldn’t make Highfield Road sustainable so so they sold it for development and chased the dream of owning a new stadium which would make them sustainable. Then they ran out of cash. Cash is absolutely vital for any business and sometimes it is best to accept that you cannot own the land and buildings you operate from and use the cash you have or the cash you can attract to make the business successful. Once you are successful and generating cash you can decide whether using that cash to own land and buildings would be beneficial to the business. Isn't Coventry's scenario virtually identical to ours, although I assume Coventry invested some of the proceeds of the old Highfield Rd site when they moved to the Ricoh or, like us now, did debts exceed equity? Again, skilfully written, but all you've done is swap any equity in the existing ground for debt on the new stadium, the numbers don't change, debt is still debt and whoever puts the money up will want to be repaid. I wonder if our perception of the difference between inner / outer City developments is one of scale? I'm not suggesting moving 10 miles out of town, which, based on my limited experience of doing business in USA, where people say that something is 'just down the road' when it's 100 miles away, could be causing some confusion. My idea of 'out of town' is adjacent to main road networks and with adequate parking and public transport. You simply don't have that in St Phillips, and weekday evening matches will be a total disaster for incoming traffic. I'm not sure how long ago you left this area, but traffic congestion is a major issue here and there's no practical public transport option. Again, using you talent as a writer, and you are very good, credit where it's due, you have glossed over the financial liability of this notional 3 years that Rovers would stay in BS7. If you have a magic formula to make ownership cost neutral whilst retaining League position then give Hani a call, he'll be delighted to hear from you. I’m proposing a potential deal where we accept that Dwane Sports own the Mem and can do what they like with it and Dwane Sports accept that they have not made a good job of running the football club and it would be better for everyone if a clean break was made. Dwane Sports therefore take everything from the proceeds of the Mem sale and we accept that Rovers will rent a new stadium. To make this deal work Dwane Sports accept that they cannot get access to the sale proceeds for three years but their financial position will not worsen. The developers accept that they will pay rent to Dwane Sports and fund any losses during the transition period but have a huge incentive to make the football club work because they are carrying the stadium costs and need new owners/tenants. The new owners of Rovers put cash into the club as equity not debt and this cash is used to fund the staffing and other infrastructure needed at the new stadium. So Rovers start afresh with no debt, properly capitalized and with a new stadium which provides opportunities for revenue generation seven days a week. The question is if that deal has been offered to the ALQ's then why aren't they prepared to agree a deal, does Wael want to stay on in some capacity or do the ALQ's want a cut of any future profits should the FM site turn out to be a financial success?
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bloogas
Joined: July 2016
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Post by bloogas on Nov 30, 2019 14:52:47 GMT
To me it it would be disappointing if Rovers fans let the Fruit Market plan fade away, as we did with the UWE plan, purely on Wael’s say so. How do the fans have any say in it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 15:35:27 GMT
Renting is fine,what could possibly go wrong? Renting at the fruit market would finish us off in pretty time in my view. It wouldn't go down well with supporters after the UWE apparently collapsed due to the leasehold especially if a short lease was agreed. I see two scenarios. Either the club is sold to somebody who moves us into a leasehold stadium or we go bust.
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Post by droitwichgas on Nov 30, 2019 16:07:58 GMT
Renting is fine,what could possibly go wrong? Renting at the fruit market would finish us off in pretty time in my view. It wouldn't go down well with supporters after the UWE apparently collapsed due to the leasehold especially if a short lease was agreed. I see two scenarios. Either the club is sold to somebody who moves us into a leasehold stadium or we go bust. I can't see somebody spending £50m or whatever building a stadium would then price us out, unlike the Ricoh Arena I can't see there another professional sports club who could take our place. Having said that unless potential buyers are actually lined up and it's not a case of "build it and they'll come" who's going to pay for it to be built anyway, £50m+ to throw at a mid table League 1 club who've spend most of there recent history in the lower leagues is an hell of a lot of money.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 16:23:25 GMT
It wouldn't go down well with supporters after the UWE apparently collapsed due to the leasehold especially if a short lease was agreed. I see two scenarios. Either the club is sold to somebody who moves us into a leasehold stadium or we go bust. I can't see somebody spending £50m or whatever building a stadium would then price us out, unlike the Ricoh Arena I can't see there another professional sports club who could take our place. Having said that unless potential buyers are actually lined up and it's not a case of "build and they'll come" who's going to pay for it to be built anyway, £50m+ to throw at a mid table League 1 club who've spend most of there recent history in the lower leagues is an hell of a lot of money. So what alternative scenarios do you think are in the running?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 16:41:12 GMT
I can't see somebody spending £50m or whatever building a stadium would then price us out, unlike the Ricoh Arena I can't see there another professional sports club who could take our place. Having said that unless potential buyers are actually lined up and it's not a case of "build and they'll come" who's going to pay for it to be built anyway, £50m+ to throw at a mid table League 1 club who've spend most of there recent history in the lower leagues is an hell of a lot of money. So what alternative scenarios do you think are in the running? Droitwich is right though, isn't he. It's going to end in tears.
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Post by droitwichgas on Nov 30, 2019 19:20:48 GMT
So what alternative scenarios do you think are in the running? Droitwich is right though, isn't he. It's going to end in tears. According to the Bristol Post reporter on the Gascast podcast talks are still ongoing, it's not now clear why Swissgas decided talks had collapsed?
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Post by swissgas on Nov 30, 2019 23:06:00 GMT
Droitwich is right though, isn't he. It's going to end in tears. According to the Bristol Post reporter on the Gascast podcast talks are still ongoing, it's not now clear why Swissgas decided talks had collapsed? James Piercy is a lot closer to the action than me and with much better access to the players involved but I wonder if he is interpreting the information he has correctly ? And I wonder whether the ambiguity is deliberate or not because from the reports they hear many Gasheads are still under the impression that it is Rovers putting multi million pound bids to Total Produce and others and that it is Rovers who would own any stadium built there. The mayor highlighted the major obstacle to progress when he talked about “various configurations of the club”. My interpretation of this is that a configuration where Wael maintains a stake will not work but a configuration with a new 92% or 100% owner could work. And the reason for this is, IMO, that to attract an investor with the resources to capitalize BRFC at the level needed to make such a large stadium project work 92% or 100% equity would have to be available. And the overriding concern of the Mayor and the developers will be that the company operating the stadium has the means to make the project work, which was also the line UWE took when they insisted on Rovers being debt free. It may be possible to cobble together a scheme whereby Wael maintains a stake in the club and we eventually get to rent a modest stadium somewhere so we can continue to exist from day to day. But it would be a great pity for Gasheads to let the Fruit Market plan fade away without at least putting up some sort of fight to find out exactly what might have been and why it didn’t happen. Perhaps the Mayor would tell us if we asked him ?
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 1, 2019 8:31:01 GMT
Well - both are speculation, so it's speculation to say which is more or less likely. But IMHO - swissgas has been pretty much on the money as far as I'm concerned for the last 2 1/2 years. And it's Dwane. Not Dwayne (as in Dwane Dibley). UTG. How can you be "on the money" if none of the dark warnings you have put out have materialised? "on the money" was qualified by the words "as far as I'm concerned". Swissgas was the first head above the parapet when he questioned Dwane Sports and the charge on the Mem pre-UWE v1 collapse. His narrative pretty much dove-tails with what I have been thinking (without his business acumen) ever since. If you still want "to believe" in Wael / Dwane Sports, then that is your right.
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eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 1, 2019 8:33:15 GMT
Renting is fine,what could possibly go wrong? Renting at the fruit market would finish us off in pretty time in my view. It wouldn't go down well with supporters after the UWE apparently collapsed due to the leasehold especially if a short lease was agreed. I see two scenarios. Either the club is sold to somebody who moves us into a leasehold stadium or we go bust.Sounds about right. Some people believe that Dwane Sports will fund losses indefinitely because "that's what other Clubs owners do". We'll see.
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Post by droitwichgas on Dec 1, 2019 8:53:05 GMT
According to the Bristol Post reporter on the Gascast podcast talks are still ongoing, it's not now clear why Swissgas decided talks had collapsed? James Piercy is a lot closer to the action than me and with much better access to the players involved but I wonder if he is interpreting the information he has correctly ? And I wonder whether the ambiguity is deliberate or not because from the reports they hear many Gasheads are still under the impression that it is Rovers putting multi million pound bids to Total Produce and others and that it is Rovers who would own any stadium built there. The mayor highlighted the major obstacle to progress when he talked about “various configurations of the club”. My interpretation of this is that a configuration where Wael maintains a stake will not work but a configuration with a new 92% or 100% owner could work. And the reason for this is, IMO, that to attract an investor with the resources to capitalize BRFC at the level needed to make such a large stadium project work 92% or 100% equity would have to be available. And the overriding concern of the Mayor and the developers will be that the company operating the stadium has the means to make the project work, which was also the line UWE took when they insisted on Rovers being debt free. It may be possible to cobble together a scheme whereby Wael maintains a stake in the club and we eventually get to rent a modest stadium somewhere so we can continue to exist from day to day. But it would be a great pity for Gasheads to let the Fruit Market plan fade away without at least putting up some sort of fight to find out exactly what might have been and why it didn’t happen. Perhaps the Mayor would tell us if we asked him ? The Mayor point blank refused to comment when asked by the R Bristol presenter only a couple of weeks ago. I can't honestly see James P would basically lie just to keep Gasheads happy as they'll have to report the truth at some point if talks have collapsed, plus he did say a "consortium" had made a bid not DS. You seem to be sticking to the ITK'ers line talks have failed, whereas we don't actually know that's the case?
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Post by The Concept on Dec 1, 2019 8:53:59 GMT
I see the name 'Rag Bag Rovers' makes a return, a couple of pages back... Ah, the good old days! Elsewhere I see in one of Keith Brookman's articles, "Thirty Years On", for the BRFPA website, that Rovers made profits of £10k 1987/88 and £45.5k in the 1988/89 season. And these financial years would have been before the cash received from the transfers of Penrice, Martyn etc. Making a profit despite: owning nothing; renting a non-league ground 15 miles away; reduced crowds; and training at the sports field of a chocolate factory, on a flood plain. I remember a few years later, moving on to The Mem, when we were told financial difficulties would be a thing of the past, as we could generate money, through owning our own ground, and cash through the tills of the bars and hospitality boxes. Rag Bag Rovers, making a profit of £45.5k - figures we could only dream of today
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
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Post by trymer on Dec 1, 2019 10:42:48 GMT
I see the name 'Rag Bag Rovers' makes a return, a couple of pages back... Ah, the good old days! Elsewhere I see in one of Keith Brookman's articles, "Thirty Years On", for the BRFPA website, that Rovers made profits of £10k 1987/88 and £45.5k in the 1988/89 season. And these financial years would have been before the cash received from the transfers of Penrice, Martyn etc. Making a profit despite: owning nothing; renting a non-league ground 15 miles away; reduced crowds; and training at the sports field of a chocolate factory, on a flood plain. I remember a few years later, moving on to The Mem, when we were told financial difficulties would be a thing of the past, as we could generate money, through owning our own ground, and cash through the tills of the bars and hospitality boxes. Rag Bag Rovers, making a profit of £45.5k - figures we could only dream of today Remember that Rovers did own their own training ground at Hambrook,I am not sure when it was sold but that could possibly have helped to show a profit ? it certainly couldnt have just come from the crowds at Twerton in the first seasons.
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trymer
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Post by trymer on Dec 1, 2019 10:50:51 GMT
There have been a few posts recently implying that all Rovers supporters welcomed the qadi as saviours/clever businessmen etc,that isn't true, as in most of life there is never 100% agreement. A very few people warned that this lot weren't going to live up to the majorities hopes,any criticism of them was met with "you must like Higgs then" type posts. I have thought since 2016 that Rovers future doesn't look good,I think that the best hope is that someone with better business sense buys Rovers (I don't know why they would) but I just hope that people don't get too excited and carried away again,the "we're coming for you" chants look a bit daft now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 11:47:45 GMT
How can you be "on the money" if none of the dark warnings you have put out have materialised? "on the money" was qualified by the words "as far as I'm concerned". Swissgas was the first head above the parapet when he questioned Dwane Sports and the charge on the Mem pre-UWE v1 collapse. His narrative pretty much dove-tails with what I have been thinking (without his business acumen) ever since. If you still want "to believe" in Wael / Dwane Sports, then that is your right. Sorry,i was thinking you meant he was "on the money" regarding facts not speculative guesswork.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 1, 2019 12:02:13 GMT
I don't want to sound like poor old BlueSky, but, unless you have information that you can't/won't share, this is just guesswork. Here's an alternative possibility. Our Mayor is involved because he wants his legacy to be that he's the person who finally delivered the Arena, and he sees a multi-use complex, and BCC being the authority that will issue the PP to develop that entire area as a package that he can put together. The problem here is that Rovers could end up with property developers who have little, if any interest in football as owners. If that were the case, and I have no evidence that it is, it's pure speculation on my part, but if it were, then Dwayne would be acting in Rovers' best interests distancing the club from being tenants in a stadium that they don't own whilst being owned by people who see the club as a liability. Can you explain why my scenario is more or less likely than yours?Given the extreme reaction from our previous Mayor to YTL's proposals last week, you have to wonder what his interest is as well? Well - both are speculation, so it's speculation to say which is more or less likely. But IMHO - swissgas has been pretty much on the money as far as I'm concerned for the last 2 1/2 years. And it's Dwane. Not Dwayne (as in Dwane Dibley). UTG. Best episode ever. I have been watching the new episodes but, for me, red dwarf was at its best with Holly, the male version. Nothing has made me laugh so much. Duane Dibley... poor cat 😂😂
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 1, 2019 12:08:30 GMT
I don't want to sound like poor old BlueSky, but, unless you have information that you can't/won't share, this is just guesswork. Here's an alternative possibility. Our Mayor is involved because he wants his legacy to be that he's the person who finally delivered the Arena, and he sees a multi-use complex, and BCC being the authority that will issue the PP to develop that entire area as a package that he can put together. The problem here is that Rovers could end up with property developers who have little, if any interest in football as owners. If that were the case, and I have no evidence that it is, it's pure speculation on my part, but if it were, then Dwayne would be acting in Rovers' best interests distancing the club from being tenants in a stadium that they don't own whilst being owned by people who see the club as a liability. Can you explain why my scenario is more or less likely than yours? Given the extreme reaction from our previous Mayor to YTL's proposals last week, you have to wonder what his interest is as well? I have received some tit bits of information which have the ring of truth about them and which I don’t want to share but these are only small pieces in the bigger picture which is easily put together from published sources. And part of the picture does include your scenario but the issues of tenancy at a stadium and owners not totally committed to football are ones which IMO could be overcome. When the media finally revealed that Dwane Sports wanted to extricate themselves from Rovers financially, but Wael wanted to stay on, it confirmed what the ITK’ers had been hinting at for a long time. Given the financial position of AJIB and Wael’s obsession with being a football “personality” taking this position is entirely understandable from their point of view. But from Rovers point of view it weakens our position considerably. We could have been in a position to say “we are BRFC, we are in League 1 of the EFL, we have a current active fan base of x thousand and a potential fan base of y thousand, we have no debt, we have been offered the lease on an impressive new stadium at a rent of z thousand per year and here is an outline business plan which will convince you that by investing a substantial amount of cash into ownership of 92%/100% of our club you will able to use your business acumen to transform us into a Championship team with Premiership potential. Instead, it seems to me, we are going to be saying “ we are BRFC, we are in League 1 of the EFL, we have a current active fan base of x thousand and a potential fan base of y thousand, we have no debt, and we will sell you 70% of the club if you will put up a few millions to keep us going till we can find someone to build us a stadium somewhere, and don’t worry, Wael, Martyn and Tom will still be here to make sure not much changes and we’ll try to keep losses under control this time. Can you tell it’s the Thanksgiving holiday over here ? If this is the case then I would be even more worried than I am already. I can’t imagine any shrewd businessman would even dream of being involved in such a silly deal.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 1, 2019 12:55:47 GMT
Renting is fine,what could possibly go wrong? Renting at the fruit market would finish us off in pretty time in my view. It wouldn't go down well with supporters after the UWE apparently collapsed due to the leasehold especially if a short lease was agreed. I see two scenarios. Either the club is sold to somebody who moves us into a leasehold stadium or we go bust. I think that sums it up perfectly and , as much as I have hated thinking it, let alone saying it, I fear we could be gone and I’d give it a timeframe of within 2 more seasons after this. Just one question, didn’t someone say that there is a caveat saying the owners can’t sell the mem , not without getting us a suitable place to play, first ? I’m even starting to think of more sinister reasons of why certain parts of the ground are closed. Never a peaceful moment in being a Rovers supporter eh. To think it only seems like yesterday, that our fans were carrying WAQ aloft, down the Gloucester rd.
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