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Post by swissgas on Mar 30, 2020 17:22:20 GMT
do you think it is to any extent a personality thing irish - eg those that moan most are those that are used to having less influence over their own life? Well we're in the realm of pseudo history meets quack psychology here but I'd argue it's more of an institutional culture thing than about individual motivation. I think you could just about espouse the following theory - professional football was generally (though not quite everywhere) the game of the industrial working class. The UK working class was (embarrasingly massive generalisation coming) generally less radical, more small 'c' conservative and more deferential than most of its European cousins particularly in Germany, Spain and Italy. So probably happier to accept the 'club-team-fans' division Epping mentioned above. It is often theorised (contentiously) that this is because the British working class had experienced somewhat better (though still pretty bad overall) living and working conditions due to our industrial revolution taking place over a much longer period of time than other countries and our Democracy being more secure and well developed. The perfect scenario is thus created for an institutionalised culture of apathetic moaning and that culture has a long tail. We don't like the boss but he's still the boss etc.
I remember reading an interesting article during the Iraq War where someone had interviewed US soldiers about their views on UK soldiers - generally the Americans were impressed and surprised at how effective and skilled British soldiers were but to a man they were shocked at how cynical, distrusting of their superiors and pessimistic the British troops were. The message was clear- the Americans believed and trusted in what their superiors and political leaders told them and used it to motivate themselves, the British soldiers didn't believe a word either politicians or their commanding officers said but did it all anyway; the Americans simply couldn't understand how professional soldiers could have such apparent lack of faith in their actions. Now there might be more holes in this theory than a swiss cheese factory but I think I prefer it to the idea that Rovers fans are somehow exceptionally apathetic. I'd argue that English football fans as a rule are only spurred into action by extreme circumstances (see Rovers fans at Twerton for classic example - and good argument for why we're not any more apathetic than anyone else).
In my experience at Twerton the moaning, and groaning did not stop but it was kept under control because of respect for the Dunfords. And the respect for the Dunfords was twofold, firstly because Denis himself was a self made man who had worked hard to build his business and secondly because it was widely known that he, his family and others had risked their own time and money to help Rovers survive and were prepared to risk even more of it to try to make the club prosper. That respect transcended the apathy, cynicism and even in some cases personal dislike because we knew for sure the direction in which we were all pulling. Here is an example of how this affected me. In those days one of the main sources of income was the club lottery (pre National Lottery) and I had the bright idea of introducing a new one to run alongside the main one which would be sold on the premise that all funds generated would be specifically designated to go towards financing a new home back in Bristol. It was going to be called the "Rovers Return" lottery and I spent a lot of time on the idea even arranging for a group of players to go to Manchester and be photographed at the Rovers Return pub with some Coronation Street stars as part of the planned promotion of the project. ( I think some of these photo's have seen the light of day in recent years). A lot of work went into this and the Board were aware of what I was doing but when it came to the crunch a vote was taken and it was decided not to proceed. Naturally I was disappointed but on reflection I understood the reasoning and respected the fact that the other Board members had made a decision in the best interests of the club. I knew that they had considered the idea very very carefully because they respected me and their decision was a calculated one and made because of the risk that a second lottery could have taken funds from the main lottery which would have been disastrous. We have to face the fact there are leaders and followers and if the leaders are respected then the followers will play their part and apathy/ cynicism will be kept under control. But respect is earned and not awarded automatically just because you have a large bank account and/or cultivate celebrity status. Good leaders work hard and try to bring followers with them they are not tempted to put in a half-hearted performance or to dictate by decree to their followers just because they know they can get away with it. I had nothing to do with "Rovers Agenda For Change" but that document makes sobering reading today. "The club's culture takes comfort from the past and with a fear of the future. There is a culture of survival and survival is seen as an achievement. There is nothing binding the top to the bottom of the club in terms of goals, values, priorities or organization". Whatever the future holds we surely can't carry on with the business model which as far back as 2006 was identified as being fatally flawed.
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Post by irenesfather on Mar 30, 2020 19:01:07 GMT
Well we're in the realm of pseudo history meets quack psychology here but I'd argue it's more of an institutional culture thing than about individual motivation. I think you could just about espouse the following theory - professional football was generally (though not quite everywhere) the game of the industrial working class. The UK working class was (embarrasingly massive generalisation coming) generally less radical, more small 'c' conservative and more deferential than most of its European cousins particularly in Germany, Spain and Italy. So probably happier to accept the 'club-team-fans' division Epping mentioned above. It is often theorised (contentiously) that this is because the British working class had experienced somewhat better (though still pretty bad overall) living and working conditions due to our industrial revolution taking place over a much longer period of time than other countries and our Democracy being more secure and well developed. The perfect scenario is thus created for an institutionalised culture of apathetic moaning and that culture has a long tail. We don't like the boss but he's still the boss etc.
I remember reading an interesting article during the Iraq War where someone had interviewed US soldiers about their views on UK soldiers - generally the Americans were impressed and surprised at how effective and skilled British soldiers were but to a man they were shocked at how cynical, distrusting of their superiors and pessimistic the British troops were. The message was clear- the Americans believed and trusted in what their superiors and political leaders told them and used it to motivate themselves, the British soldiers didn't believe a word either politicians or their commanding officers said but did it all anyway; the Americans simply couldn't understand how professional soldiers could have such apparent lack of faith in their actions. Now there might be more holes in this theory than a swiss cheese factory but I think I prefer it to the idea that Rovers fans are somehow exceptionally apathetic. I'd argue that English football fans as a rule are only spurred into action by extreme circumstances (see Rovers fans at Twerton for classic example - and good argument for why we're not any more apathetic than anyone else).
In my experience at Twerton the moaning, and groaning did not stop but it was kept under control because of respect for the Dunfords. And the respect for the Dunfords was twofold, firstly because Denis himself was a self made man who had worked hard to build his business and secondly because it was widely known that he, his family and others had risked their own time and money to help Rovers survive and were prepared to risk even more of it to try to make the club prosper. That respect transcended the apathy, cynicism and even in some cases personal dislike because we knew for sure the direction in which we were all pulling. Here is an example of how this affected me. In those days one of the main sources of income was the club lottery (pre National Lottery) and I had the bright idea of introducing a new one to run alongside the main one which would be sold on the premise that all funds generated would be specifically designated to go towards financing a new home back in Bristol. It was going to be called the "Rovers Return" lottery and I spent a lot of time on the idea even arranging for a group of players to go to Manchester and be photographed at the Rovers Return pub with some Coronation Street stars as part of the planned promotion of the project. ( I think some of these photo's have seen the light of day in recent years). A lot of work went into this and the Board were aware of what I was doing but when it came to the crunch a vote was taken and it was decided not to proceed. Naturally I was disappointed but on reflection I understood the reasoning and respected the fact that the other Board members had made a decision in the best interests of the club. I knew that they had considered the idea very very carefully because they respected me and their decision was a calculated one and made because of the risk that a second lottery could have taken funds from the main lottery which would have been disastrous. We have to face the fact there are leaders and followers and if the leaders are respected then the followers will play their part and apathy/ cynicism will be kept under control. But respect is earned and not awarded automatically just because you have a large bank account and/or cultivate celebrity status. Good leaders work hard and try to bring followers with them they are not tempted to put in a half-hearted performance or to dictate by decree to their followers just because they know they can get away with it. I had nothing to do with "Rovers Agenda For Change" but that document makes sobering reading today. "The club's culture takes comfort from the past and with a fear of the future. There is a culture of survival and survival is seen as an achievement. There is nothing binding the top to the bottom of the club in terms of goals, values, priorities or organization". Whatever the future holds we surely can't carry on with the business model which as far back as 2006 was identified as being fatally flawed. Would be great to be able to turn the clock back and have Denis and geoff back at the helm
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knowall
Joined: August 2019
Posts: 162
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Post by knowall on Mar 30, 2020 20:01:21 GMT
In my experience at Twerton the moaning, and groaning did not stop but it was kept under control because of respect for the Dunfords. And the respect for the Dunfords was twofold, firstly because Denis himself was a self made man who had worked hard to build his business and secondly because it was widely known that he, his family and others had risked their own time and money to help Rovers survive and were prepared to risk even more of it to try to make the club prosper. That respect transcended the apathy, cynicism and even in some cases personal dislike because we knew for sure the direction in which we were all pulling. Here is an example of how this affected me. In those days one of the main sources of income was the club lottery (pre National Lottery) and I had the bright idea of introducing a new one to run alongside the main one which would be sold on the premise that all funds generated would be specifically designated to go towards financing a new home back in Bristol. It was going to be called the "Rovers Return" lottery and I spent a lot of time on the idea even arranging for a group of players to go to Manchester and be photographed at the Rovers Return pub with some Coronation Street stars as part of the planned promotion of the project. ( I think some of these photo's have seen the light of day in recent years). A lot of work went into this and the Board were aware of what I was doing but when it came to the crunch a vote was taken and it was decided not to proceed. Naturally I was disappointed but on reflection I understood the reasoning and respected the fact that the other Board members had made a decision in the best interests of the club. I knew that they had considered the idea very very carefully because they respected me and their decision was a calculated one and made because of the risk that a second lottery could have taken funds from the main lottery which would have been disastrous. We have to face the fact there are leaders and followers and if the leaders are respected then the followers will play their part and apathy/ cynicism will be kept under control. But respect is earned and not awarded automatically just because you have a large bank account and/or cultivate celebrity status. Good leaders work hard and try to bring followers with them they are not tempted to put in a half-hearted performance or to dictate by decree to their followers just because they know they can get away with it. I had nothing to do with "Rovers Agenda For Change" but that document makes sobering reading today. "The club's culture takes comfort from the past and with a fear of the future. There is a culture of survival and survival is seen as an achievement. There is nothing binding the top to the bottom of the club in terms of goals, values, priorities or organization". Whatever the future holds we surely can't carry on with the business model which as far back as 2006 was identified as being fatally flawed. Would be great to be able to turn the clock back and have Denis and geoff back at the helm Regretfully, that is not possible, but there are plenty of disciples of the Denis & Geoff era who still believe that not only were they right but they were taking us to the ultimate.
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Post by irenesfather on Mar 31, 2020 7:46:26 GMT
Would be great to be able to turn the clock back and have Denis and geoff back at the helm Regretfully, that is not possible, but there are plenty of disciples of the Denis & Geoff era who still believe that not only were they right but they were taking us to the ultimate. Who is to say that they arent right
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