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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 12:45:44 GMT
Only managed a week in South America before it was cut short unfortunately, I’m blogging about each game over the coming weeks here though; lospincharratas.wordpress.com/Hopefully you’re all doing ok and are well  Latest one is up about our visit to San Lorenzo, as for the chant you can listen here; |
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 25, 2020 21:05:03 GMT
Only managed a week in South America before it was cut short unfortunately, I’m blogging about each game over the coming weeks here though; lospincharratas.wordpress.com/Hopefully you’re all doing ok and are well Latest one is up about our visit to San Lorenzo, as for the chant you can listen here; I feel that some of the passion displayed here is somewhat absent on a mid-week away trip in November up t'north in the lower regions of English football. Great footage. UTG. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Mar 25, 2020 21:05:25 GMT
Only managed a week in South America before it was cut short unfortunately, I’m blogging about each game over the coming weeks here though; lospincharratas.wordpress.com/Hopefully you’re all doing ok and are well Latest one is up about our visit to San Lorenzo, as for the chant you can listen here; Brilliant! Loved the write-ups on the blog too. Great Stuff!
Shame you were only there for a short time - but I get the impression that you'd probably say it was worth it just for that Boca experience......Amazing!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 23:44:24 GMT
Latest one is up about our visit to San Lorenzo, as for the chant you can listen here; Brilliant! Loved the write-ups on the blog too. Great Stuff!
Shame you were only there for a short time - but I get the impression that you'd probably say it was worth it just for that Boca experience......Amazing!
Words do not do justice to Boca. Unreal. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 10:35:50 GMT
Brilliant! Loved the write-ups on the blog too. Great Stuff!
Shame you were only there for a short time - but I get the impression that you'd probably say it was worth it just for that Boca experience......Amazing!
Words do not do justice to Boca. Unreal. 5:52 onwards was probably one of the most extraordinary moments of my life, unreal and on our toes. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 13:34:20 GMT
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 29, 2020 17:33:59 GMT
All good reads, I would thoroughly recommend. Great work Sir! My write up of trips to Brisbane Road and Billericay look a little shabby in comparison. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Mar 30, 2020 13:02:35 GMT
Great stuff! Really enjoyed the Ferro write-up in particular. A few questions;
-Looks like quite a big drop off between the top tier and the rest? (Not that unusual of course but would a club like Barracas even be professional?)
-You seem to have managed to cram an impressive amount into a short trip. Are the games stretched Friday-Sunday in Argentina? If so, is there any pattern to that - ie. do they put a big televised game on at a particular time etc?
-As a devotee of Tim Vickery I know that, with the exception of Boca and River, Argentinian clubs are seen as representatives of their specific neighbourhoods. Does that mean there are interesting class divides in support basis beyond the famous River-Boca thing? Or is it often based on other factors such as ethnic background? I'm just interested in what the character of the neighbourhoods are and how they are represented I suppose.
-How Touristy is BA? My feeling from talking to people is that Argentina is far less of a tourist hotspot than other parts of the continent and that interests me. Think I quite fancy it in a way Rio, for example, doesn't massively appeal to me (not that I'd say no right now of course.....).
Even though I've never been there I have quite a lot of South American (and Mexican) Mates. In fact I'm pretty sure I have known at least one person from every country in South America and have particularly close friends from Chile. However, in the group I mingle with none are Argentinian and despite nearly all being well educated liberal leaning people, there is a notable prejudice among my friends towards Argentinians. They are clearly seen as snobbish and elitist by the rest of Latin America. I would say it is not dissimilar to the way the English stereotype the French except it seems quite a lot nastier. Some of this is undoubtedbly down to Argentina's historic role as the militarily aggressive economic powerhouse during the formative years of South American independence. They had an unfortunate habit of invading people, particularly Chile. Plus in the Early Twentieth Century it was a boom country, attracted many European immigrants and arguably had far more in common with European countries (in terms of wealth and culture) than it's relatively struggling neighbours. So you could see where the stereotype might come from. It's interesting how strongly it seems to be felt though even among people who should really know better. So I guess I was wondering if you had any feel from your trip for how Argentinians see themselves?
By the way, I reckon you should go back and write up your other trips now! If you can remember them that is, presumably beer has been permitted elsewhere..........
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2020 14:09:15 GMT
Great stuff! Really enjoyed the Ferro write-up in particular. A few questions;
-Looks like quite a big drop off between the top tier and the rest? (Not that unusual of course but would a club like Barracas even be professional?)
The second tier is split into two leagues, so it tends to be an odd mix. I see it similar to the fourth tier in Germany which is regional, you can have very big clubs and quite small ones. For instance in Germany's Regionalliga West you have huge clubs like Rot-Weiss Essen, Rot-Weiss Oberhausen, Alemannia Aachen who all have stadiums holding over 20,000 and in Aachen's case over 30,000. You also have B Teams and small clubs like Homberg and Haltern who are similar size to Conference North/South sides. The size of the Argentine Primera División - 24 also means you have more big teams in the league. In Primera B Nacional there's a cluster of historically big teams like Ferro, Atlanta, Platense, Tigre and Quilmes who just currently find themselves outside the top flight for numerous reasons.
-You seem to have managed to cram an impressive amount into a short trip. Are the games stretched Friday-Sunday in Argentina? If so, is there any pattern to that - ie. do they put a big televised game on at a particular time etc?
All top flight fixtures are televised and usually run from Thursday - Tuesday, the second tier tend to have games on Wednesday as well to have their bit of the action. The only game clash while we were there was Boca and River because it was the title decider. Games are sometimes confirmed only 5 days before the actual game. You're given game weekends and then the fixture split can be planned very, very late.
-As a devotee of Tim Vickery I know that, with the exception of Boca and River, Argentinian clubs are seen as representatives of their specific neighbourhoods. Does that mean there are interesting class divides in support basis beyond the famous River-Boca thing? Or is it often based on other factors such as ethnic background? I'm just interested in what the character of the neighbourhoods are and how they are represented I suppose. So, Ferro for instance play in what is deemed a nice neighbourhood. Barracas less so. We spoke to two Ferro fans one who was River and one who was Boca, they implied a lot of people support "bigger clubs" but then back their Barrio. You can read a little bit on the Barrios here, most populated Barrios will have a club.
-How Touristy is BA? My feeling from talking to people is that Argentina is far less of a tourist hotspot than other parts of the continent and that interests me. Think I quite fancy it in a way Rio, for example, doesn't massively appeal to me (not that I'd say no right now of course.....).
I'll level with you, BA is crap for tourists. There's very little to do. It's cheap to get around with uber, it's pretty chilled but there isn't a lot of touristy things unless you're going to football really. The areas that were toursty (La Boca as an example) were almost too touristy. We didn't have the time to do stuff like the Gaucho experience and had no inclination to do a Tango themed thing.
Even though I've never been there I have quite a lot of South American (and Mexican) Mates. In fact I'm pretty sure I have known at least one person from every country in South America and have particularly close friends from Chile. However, in the group I mingle with none are Argentinian and despite nearly all being well educated liberal leaning people, there is a notable prejudice among my friends towards Argentinians. They are clearly seen as snobbish and elitist by the rest of Latin America. I would say it is not dissimilar to the way the English stereotype the French except it seems quite a lot nastier. Some of this is undoubtedbly down to Argentina's historic role as the militarily aggressive economic powerhouse during the formative years of South American independence. They had an unfortunate habit of invading people, particularly Chile. Plus in the Early Twentieth Century it was a boom country, attracted many European immigrants and arguably had far more in common with European countries (in terms of wealth and culture) than it's relatively struggling neighbours. So you could see where the stereotype might come from. It's interesting how strongly it seems to be felt though even among people who should really know better. So I guess I was wondering if you had any feel from your trip for how Argentinians see themselves?
BA is often referred to as the "Paris of the South" which, I think is a bit harsh because Paris is a s**thole. We did come across an element of Us vs The World in Argentina. Not that they were rude or anything, I just think they feel a little disrespected full stop. There's still a lot of imagery regarding The Malvinas and frankly, just don't talk about it. The Argentine football team is a microcosm of society there. Messi isn't seen as particularly Argentine because he left too early. On the whole though, everyone we met was excited that two English blokes had come all the way to their small business to look and buy something. Be that the ticket office at a lot of the grounds, cafes, bars, shops, whatever.
By the way, I reckon you should go back and write up your other trips now! If you can remember them that is, presumably beer has been permitted elsewhere..........
Once I've done the two games in Brazil, I'm going to do the trip to Northern Italy the back end of last year, Malaga & Cordoba and Valencia as well. I'll go back a little further as well depending how long this nonsense goes on!
UTG |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Mar 30, 2020 15:07:58 GMT
Great stuff! Really enjoyed the Ferro write-up in particular. A few questions;
-Looks like quite a big drop off between the top tier and the rest? (Not that unusual of course but would a club like Barracas even be professional?)
The second tier is split into two leagues, so it tends to be an odd mix. I see it similar to the fourth tier in Germany which is regional, you can have very big clubs and quite small ones. For instance in Germany's Regionalliga West you have huge clubs like Rot-Weiss Essen, Rot-Weiss Oberhausen, Alemannia Aachen who all have stadiums holding over 20,000 and in Aachen's case over 30,000. You also have B Teams and small clubs like Homberg and Haltern who are similar size to Conference North/South sides. The size of the Argentine Primera División - 24 also means you have more big teams in the league. In Primera B Nacional there's a cluster of historically big teams like Ferro, Atlanta, Platense, Tigre and Quilmes who just currently find themselves outside the top flight for numerous reasons.
-You seem to have managed to cram an impressive amount into a short trip. Are the games stretched Friday-Sunday in Argentina? If so, is there any pattern to that - ie. do they put a big televised game on at a particular time etc?
All top flight fixtures are televised and usually run from Thursday - Tuesday, the second tier tend to have games on Wednesday as well to have their bit of the action. The only game clash while we were there was Boca and River because it was the title decider. Games are sometimes confirmed only 5 days before the actual game. You're given game weekends and then the fixture split can be planned very, very late.
-As a devotee of Tim Vickery I know that, with the exception of Boca and River, Argentinian clubs are seen as representatives of their specific neighbourhoods. Does that mean there are interesting class divides in support basis beyond the famous River-Boca thing? Or is it often based on other factors such as ethnic background? I'm just interested in what the character of the neighbourhoods are and how they are represented I suppose. So, Ferro for instance play in what is deemed a nice neighbourhood. Barracas less so. We spoke to two Ferro fans one who was River and one who was Boca, they implied a lot of people support "bigger clubs" but then back their Barrio. You can read a little bit on the Barrios here, most populated Barrios will have a club.
-How Touristy is BA? My feeling from talking to people is that Argentina is far less of a tourist hotspot than other parts of the continent and that interests me. Think I quite fancy it in a way Rio, for example, doesn't massively appeal to me (not that I'd say no right now of course.....).
I'll level with you, BA is crap for tourists. There's very little to do. It's cheap to get around with uber, it's pretty chilled but there isn't a lot of touristy things unless you're going to football really. The areas that were toursty (La Boca as an example) were almost too touristy. We didn't have the time to do stuff like the Gaucho experience and had no inclination to do a Tango themed thing.
Even though I've never been there I have quite a lot of South American (and Mexican) Mates. In fact I'm pretty sure I have known at least one person from every country in South America and have particularly close friends from Chile. However, in the group I mingle with none are Argentinian and despite nearly all being well educated liberal leaning people, there is a notable prejudice among my friends towards Argentinians. They are clearly seen as snobbish and elitist by the rest of Latin America. I would say it is not dissimilar to the way the English stereotype the French except it seems quite a lot nastier. Some of this is undoubtedbly down to Argentina's historic role as the militarily aggressive economic powerhouse during the formative years of South American independence. They had an unfortunate habit of invading people, particularly Chile. Plus in the Early Twentieth Century it was a boom country, attracted many European immigrants and arguably had far more in common with European countries (in terms of wealth and culture) than it's relatively struggling neighbours. So you could see where the stereotype might come from. It's interesting how strongly it seems to be felt though even among people who should really know better. So I guess I was wondering if you had any feel from your trip for how Argentinians see themselves?
BA is often referred to as the "Paris of the South" which, I think is a bit harsh because Paris is a s***hole. We did come across an element of Us vs The World in Argentina. Not that they were rude or anything, I just think they feel a little disrespected full stop. There's still a lot of imagery regarding The Malvinas and frankly, just don't talk about it. The Argentine football team is a microcosm of society there. Messi isn't seen as particularly Argentine because he left too early. On the whole though, everyone we met was excited that two English blokes had come all the way to their small business to look and buy something. Be that the ticket office at a lot of the grounds, cafes, bars, shops, whatever.
By the way, I reckon you should go back and write up your other trips now! If you can remember them that is, presumably beer has been permitted elsewhere..........
Once I've done the two games in Brazil, I'm going to do the trip to Northern Italy the back end of last year, Malaga & Cordoba and Valencia as well. I'll go back a little further as well depending how long this nonsense goes on!
UTG Very interesting - thanks. Despite this I still think something about BA intrigues me. Not least that my mates from South America tell me not to go there! Me and my partner are planning a trip to South America in the near future but I'm not sure I'll quite be able to sell her on 5 days of football tourism! Although having said that she was the one who insisted we went to watch FC United play in Salzberg last year so maybe.........
Due to the history of those countries there are unique layers to identity that I find quite difficult (maybe impossible) to grasp from the outside. For example, there's South America's weird colonial history. These are countries where (like the US) independence was won by the colonisers. Like the US, there was also slavery from Africa and a genocide of native populations. So you have people who on the one hand see themselves as the Bolivaran underdogs who threw off the shackles of oppression from Spain and Portugal (and Britain to a lesser extent) but are arguably the beneficiaries of far worse oppression towards the original native populations and to imported slaves. Add in waves of European migration from Southern Europe post-independence when the place was relatively booming and you have a very complicated inheritance. The comparison with the US is obvious but the modern US doesn't really have that post-colonial chip on its shoulder anymore and is (with many obvioys exceptions) generally much more comfortable with the concept of being a cultural melting pot. The British thing is largely a footnote in modern US identity these days. Whereas South American's tend to still proudly identify with their independence movements. That's before you even get into the class/political/ethnic divides etc.
It's interesting and sometimes quite toxic stuff. One of my best mates in Manchester is from Chile and would be classified as a 'white' Chilean - which normally means of Italian origin and associated with the Chilean upper classes. He's always telling me how rascist Chilean society is and how when he first moved to Manchester there were two different facebook groups for Chilean people in the area. One for elite white skinned Chilean's, the other for everyone else. He joined the group for everyone else because he rejects that cultural snobbery and political history but I thought it was interesting (and depressing) how stark it was.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2020 18:02:13 GMT
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Apr 1, 2020 12:15:31 GMT
All great write-ups and thanks for sharing. Question: With all the sights and sounds of football enjoyed around the globe... do you feel a little less a part of Rovers? That's not a dig. My rare trips to Berlin (or catching Union on TV) and German football generally / interest in Orient / lower leagues / ... make me more and more frustrated and disenfranchised from my own Football Club. Whether my feelings for Rovers return when/if we get a change of ownership remain to be seen. Pre-CV I made the conscious decision to not attend the Mem again this season. I had a birthday recently, and excitedly (I have a mental age about 8) put my order in at Union Berlin for shorts and a couple of badges. I didn't even visit the Rovers site. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2020 13:58:35 GMT
All great write-ups and thanks for sharing. Question: With all the sights and sounds of football enjoyed around the globe... do you feel a little less a part of Rovers? That's not a dig. My rare trips to Berlin (or catching Union on TV) and German football generally / interest in Orient / lower leagues / ... make me more and more frustrated and disenfranchised from my own Football Club. Whether my feelings for Rovers return when/if we get a change of ownership remain to be seen. Pre-CV I made the conscious decision to not attend the Mem again this season. I had a birthday recently, and excitedly (I have a mental age about 8) put my order in at Union Berlin for shorts and a couple of badges. I didn't even visit the Rovers site. To be honest, to a greater or lesser extent I've been a bit exasperated by Rovers for the last decade. While it is enjoyable the running of the club in that period and the decade prior was and has been piss poor. I get annoyed when I look across to Germany and see clubs well run, making profit in tidy grounds and fan representation. I'm not just talking about the big clubs either, it's pretty pointless comparing Rovers to the likes of Union and Pauli. Let's look at Erzgebirge Aue, Rot-Weiss Essen and Kickers Offenbach, well constructed, mildly interesting stadiums. I think German football is quite romanticised, especially in Union's case. With regards to other countries it's less of a thing, grounds are generally poor, you get treated poorly, but the product is what you're there for. I still love Rovers but, at the moment especially, we're a bit pants and the club is being run awfully... I can't really be arsed to be too moody about that beyond making my points. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2020 19:39:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2020 20:06:33 GMT
I’ve done another couple of blogs on Valencia and Kyiv if anyone fancies a read. Over at lospincharratas.com/ |
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Apr 6, 2020 20:17:19 GMT
Valencia was a good read, not got to Kyiv yet (though I think I already read it earlier in this thread). Also thanks for the links provided to help potential ground-hoppers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 12:56:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2020 9:39:17 GMT
Tentatively making plans for a trip to Georgia and Armenia in November, obviously not booking anything but a potential double there is on the cards. See how this all pans out.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Apr 17, 2020 15:11:30 GMT
Tentatively making plans for a trip to Georgia and Armenia in November, obviously not booking anything but a potential double there is on the cards. See how this all pans out. For some bizarre reason there was, until recently, a small Georgian restaurant near where I work in Huddersfield of all places. Without doubt it served the best food and wine I have ever tasted. Sadly shut last month but it's made very keen to go to that part of the World.....
The Valencia one was good. The Mestalla always looks good on the TV but I'd never realised that it had one old fashioned grandstand. It's very Spanish I think. I've always wanted to go to Betis for that same reasons (and cos I like Betis and you can do a lot worse than a weekend in Seville!). If you do requests by the way, I'd love you to do a write up of the Prague trip you talked about before on this thread!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 12:26:37 GMT
One last sneaky game in 2019/20.
Have booked to go to Prague this weekend and will be off to Dukla vs Varnsdorf in the second division. First game since Brazil in March!
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