Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 16:30:13 GMT
Ah - but if you are going to judge in hindsight negatively you have to also judge positively and based on where we are now the decision to hold onto Clarke looks like a good one and there is a decent wider defence of it too; if due to wage bill reductions you're not going to have the capacity to bring in a ton of players and you're stuck with some player in your squad you'd probably rather get rid of then you may as well stick with the manager who knows the players that are left quite well and has an idea where we might be able to get some cheap additions. You can't have it every way under the sun - if you're going quote 'facts' about relegation then you also take into consideration 'facts' from this season that show Clarke in a much more positive light; ie making a much better fist of it in the first Conference season than most of the 'bigger' clubs that drop out of the football league do. Given that football lives eternally in the present I don't think it's surprising that the majority think Clarke is doing a decent job and yes I challenge you to come up with a manager that you think would definitely be doing a better job right now given the relatively restrictive hand he was dealt; ie reduction in wagebill, big wages still on the books and unlikely to go anywhere, an incredibly pissed off fanbase and a club in the doldrums. Not really the most auspicious of circumstances and surely if you're going assign him that much of the blame for relegation you need to give him quite a bit of credit for what he's done since otherwise it seems unfair and one eyed frankly. I thought we should have let him go in the summer because irrespective of anything else I didn't think the relegation stench would wash away unless we had a clean break but the results say I was wrong. I'm judging in hindsight objectively, based on known information and outcome. Positive about where we are now, now I know you are joking, scroll up and read the list of teams we have failed to defeat this season. With the resources at our disposal we should be putting village pub teams like Dartford and Woking to the sword 9 times out of 10. The game played in this division isn't even football as I recognise it, it's more like a Saturday night fight interrupted occasionally by big blokes seeing how high they can kick the ball. Anybody who can get the ball on the floor, pass it quickly and have team mates prepared to move into space will blitz this division. Yes, I can name a man who will do a better job, I did it before the season started and I'll remind you again at the end of the season when he takes his team back into the League. but martin allens barnet have a pretty long list of conference teams they failed to beat? even luton did last season,,,do you think we would be winning every game 5-0 if we had appointed him as manager?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 16:32:55 GMT
Where is your evidence for this? When was the last time that Allen took a side back to the football league in their first season in the conference? Barnet have had an extra 12 months to get their side together. How easy do you think it is to build a championship winning side from scratch in a few months? How many other teams have done that in the past? Are the resources at Clark's disposal that great? That's Clarke's, not the board's, please try to separate the performance of the rwo. What's his playing budget please? How much of that is tied up in the players that came down with us? What is Barnet's please? If you don't have the numbers, then what are you talking about?a A very good post. Don't expect an answer any time soon This is the first full season of this spell at Barnet, he was appointed pretty much at the same time as Clarke, 19th March. It will end with promotion. During his first spell there he created a team from scratch in pre-season and left them top of the League, only for Paul Fairclough to mess things up and they lost in the play offs. No attempt by me to blame everything on Clarke, but I'm amazed that the bloke who was part of the management team all of last season gets such a free ride from the rah-rah brigade on here. You can't have this argument both ways, is Clarke hamstrung by contracted players eroding his budget, or does he have seasoned League quality pros to work with? Wretched facts getting in the way of good old fashioned cheerleading.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 16:35:54 GMT
TBA if we do not win the league then I think we might struggle in the play offs. I watch most games and we struggle away from home, the defeats away at Barnet, Braintree and Altrincham were horror shows, and the awful draws at places like Eastliegh and particularly Dartford says we might struggle if we have go away particularly in the second leg of the play offs (thats if we make the play offs). The problem for me is that Clarke blames every body bar himself for every thing, maybe he is right, although only time will tell. And while the defence do make stupid mistakes, our defensive record is sceond to none; however, up front we are dog ****. Yes, Taylor is a good footballer and should be in the side, but he aint a natural goalscorer and chokes and missdes far too many opportunities. Clarke please give Ellis a chance ffs (upfront with Easter), you might then get the goals we need for automatic promotion. utg my guess is that you wernt at eastleigh during that awful draw? a club whose budget allowed them to bring in experienced league players.
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Feb 9, 2015 17:08:54 GMT
A very good post. Don't expect an answer any time soon This is the first full season of this spell at Barnet, he was appointed pretty much at the same time as Clarke, 19th March. It will end with promotion. During his first spell there he created a team from scratch in pre-season and left them top of the League, only for Paul Fairclough to mess things up and they lost in the play offs. No attempt by me to blame everything on Clarke, but I'm amazed that the bloke who was part of the management team all of last season gets such a free ride from the rah-rah brigade on here. You can't have this argument both ways, is Clarke hamstrung by contracted players eroding his budget, or does he have seasoned League quality pros to work with? Wretched facts getting in the way of good old fashioned cheerleading. I see only 2 indisputable facts here - that Clarke and Allen were appointed on the same day and that Barnet were top of the league when Allen left them. Neither of these exactly seem particularly relevant and neither make an indisputable case for your argument. 'Paul Fairclough messed things up and they lost in the playoffs' -they lost in the playoffs is a fact but is only relevant to your argument because it is based on an assumption, not a ridiculous one but an opinion none the less. Ultimate opinion being that if Allen had stayed they'd have gone up; that's not a fact it's a hypothetical. Maybe they got pissed the night before, maybe Aliens abducted their star striker etc. You have not presented any facts that really support your assertion (not opinion because you have claimed higher understanding) that Martin Allen would be doing a better job here. You cannot objectively prove that Martin Allen would be doing a better job right now - it is not actually possible to do so, you can only argue it which is why you can't possibly justify your argument as being objective. I don't think it is 'having it both ways' - Clarke didn't have 'league quality pros to work with' what he had was a squad that got relegated last year and therefore proved that they weren't league quality (that's almost a quantitative fact) and the only ones that were currently considered league quality were the ones that signed with league clubs (almost both a qualitative and a quantitative fact), that is a pretty bad starting point for a manager.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 19:14:18 GMT
Blimey Irish, hope your ISP don't charge you per keystroke? And again, no actual counter argument presented? Just a snide remark from a man who claims the pedestal of 'objectivity'. I can explain why the length though. My problem isn't with your viewpoint it's with your claim to put that viewpoint on a pedestal. It's a cheap trick that passes off opinion as fact and prevents equal exchange of views. In the world of the internet we're all down in the gutter chucking mud around - you don't have some clearer more rational perspective than anyone else. Any vague claim at objective argument has to show why the facts that don't fit the argument aren't relevant; and given we're 2nd in the league there is quite a lot of evidence that doesn't fit and ultimately it isn't really based on objective evidence in hindsight but on a hypothetical (ie another manager would have us top; which is a fair argument but can't possibly be proven). What you did was take an argument and find the facts to fit it according to a set of arguable assumptions (ie who we should be beating etc), which is exactly what we all do. That's why you provoke a long response. In order to disagree with someone who claims an 'objective' position you have to point out why their position isn't really objective which takes words. I suspect (though don't know) that you blame Clarke for relegation and are therefore not going to give him any benefit of the doubt; that's a perfectly valid opinion and I agree that he has more to prove. But to claim it is 'objective' is to argue that your perspective (rather than your argument) is superior to that of other posters and that deserves to be challenged. Don't be so sensitive, I'm just playing with you about the length of a lot of your posts. The 'objective' bit was a statement of facts regarding last season's results. By all means prove me wrong. My 'perspective' may be a little clearer and more rational than some other people's, I said after the Torquay farce that Clarke had to go if we were to avoid relegation. Of course you can't prove that any other manager would be doing better, I didn't claim that, but nobody could have achieved a worse outcome last season, and that's the bit that I keep getting stuck at, here we are suffering the ignominy of playing competitive matches against part time rubbish yet nobody seems to have been held to account for how we got here? What I claimed back in summer and what I stand by is that nobody has a better record of getting teams promoted from this League than Martin Allen. I also said that he was not a long term solution to any problem other than getting out of this division and back into the League.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 19:45:09 GMT
I am pleased the freefall has stopped, hopefully. Not pleased that we are in the conference. It was with a heavy heart yesterday that I watched league highlights and saw a 38 year old Cureton show how to take goal opportunities for that massive club Dagenham & Redbridge and cringed at the league tables when I see our traditional peers Bournemouth and Brentford pushing for promotion way up the league. So pleased that we are not heading for the Conference South, frustrated at the number of chances Taylor misses every game it seems, bored quite often with the tactics that DC employs and amazed at the ability of a club with the support we have to screw things up. i dont think any of us will ever be happy with being in the conference but im pleased we have an honest team having a real good go at getting back in the league,, Wow All that money spent and we have an honest team giving it a go. Eff me, is that the limit of our expectations?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 19:54:36 GMT
i dont think any of us will ever be happy with being in the conference but im pleased we have an honest team having a real good go at getting back in the league,, Wow All that money spent and we have an honest team giving it a go. Eff me, is that the limit of our expectations? Yep!! We are second in non league, say we are second in non league......canto!!!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 20:06:20 GMT
Wow All that money spent and we have an honest team giving it a go. Eff me, is that the limit of our expectations? Yep!! We are second in non league, say we are second in non league......canto!!! Foxy bingo anyone?
|
|
|
Post by Topper Gas on Feb 9, 2015 21:11:40 GMT
TBA if we do not win the league then I think we might struggle in the play offs. I watch most games and we struggle away from home, the defeats away at Barnet, Braintree and Altrincham were horror shows, and the awful draws at places like Eastliegh and particularly Dartford says we might struggle if we have go away particularly in the second leg of the play offs (thats if we make the play offs). The problem for me is that Clarke blames every body bar himself for every thing, maybe he is right, although only time will tell. And while the defence do make stupid mistakes, our defensive record is sceond to none; however, up front we are dog ****. Yes, Taylor is a good footballer and should be in the side, but he aint a natural goalscorer and chokes and missdes far too many opportunities. Clarke please give Ellis a chance ffs (upfront with Easter), you might then get the goals we need for automatic promotion. utg my guess is that you wernt at eastleigh during that awful draw? a club whose budget allowed them to bring in experienced league players. My guess is he meant Alfreton, perhaps he was the fan who tried to board the team coach? As far as Taylor you do wonder what goes though his mind when he gets a chance as looking on the YouTube highlights the chances he missed were shockers. Whilst he's clearly a good footballer how do you fit a non scoring striker into a team. I bet DC, & the player himself, is gutted Easter's injured as he could score an hateful in this league.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 21:24:43 GMT
my guess is that you wernt at eastleigh during that awful draw? a club whose budget allowed them to bring in experienced league players. My guess is he meant Alfreton, perhaps he was the fan who tried to board the team coach? As far as Taylor you do wonder what goes though his mind when he gets a chance as looking on the YouTube highlights the chances he missed were shockers. Whilst he's clearly a good footballer how do you fit a non scoring striker into a team. I bet DC, & the player himself, is gutted Easter's injured as he could score an hateful in this league. yes he may have meant alfreton,i might sound crazy but i still think taylor is capable of going on a goalscoring run from now until the end of the season though i agree hes not a natural finisher
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 21:30:53 GMT
i dont think any of us will ever be happy with being in the conference but im pleased we have an honest team having a real good go at getting back in the league,, Wow All that money spent and we have an honest team giving it a go. Eff me, is that the limit of our expectations? you mean money wasted during last 10 years ? the dreaded board and dc do appear to be running things better this season i think
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Feb 9, 2015 21:36:57 GMT
And again, no actual counter argument presented? Just a snide remark from a man who claims the pedestal of 'objectivity'. I can explain why the length though. My problem isn't with your viewpoint it's with your claim to put that viewpoint on a pedestal. It's a cheap trick that passes off opinion as fact and prevents equal exchange of views. In the world of the internet we're all down in the gutter chucking mud around - you don't have some clearer more rational perspective than anyone else. Any vague claim at objective argument has to show why the facts that don't fit the argument aren't relevant; and given we're 2nd in the league there is quite a lot of evidence that doesn't fit and ultimately it isn't really based on objective evidence in hindsight but on a hypothetical (ie another manager would have us top; which is a fair argument but can't possibly be proven). What you did was take an argument and find the facts to fit it according to a set of arguable assumptions (ie who we should be beating etc), which is exactly what we all do. That's why you provoke a long response. In order to disagree with someone who claims an 'objective' position you have to point out why their position isn't really objective which takes words. I suspect (though don't know) that you blame Clarke for relegation and are therefore not going to give him any benefit of the doubt; that's a perfectly valid opinion and I agree that he has more to prove. But to claim it is 'objective' is to argue that your perspective (rather than your argument) is superior to that of other posters and that deserves to be challenged. Don't be so sensitive, I'm just playing with you about the length of a lot of your posts. The 'objective' bit was a statement of facts regarding last season's results. By all means prove me wrong. My 'perspective' may be a little clearer and more rational than some other people's, I said after the Torquay farce that Clarke had to go if we were to avoid relegation. Of course you can't prove that any other manager would be doing better, I didn't claim that, but nobody could have achieved a worse outcome last season, and that's the bit that I keep getting stuck at, here we are suffering the ignominy of playing competitive matches against part time rubbish yet nobody seems to have been held to account for how we got here? What I claimed back in summer and what I stand by is that nobody has a better record of getting teams promoted from this League than Martin Allen. I also said that he was not a long term solution to any problem other than getting out of this division and back into the League. Fair enough - now that's a better argument. I was disappointed, not offended. All I want to do is find out what the basis of your opinion is as it differs from most and is therefore interesting; as far as I can see you can either agree, disagree or ignore and that felt like opting out is all. But it's you can't really to debate with someone as an equal if they're claiming some kind of monopoly on the facts. I'm interested because I didn't think we should have hired Clarke either and didn't particular warm to him and actually did think that wherever you assign blame for relegation the guy at the helm probably needs to go just to clear the air. A mistake we've sort of made before with Garry Thompson. So it's not that end of it that I disagree with you on - that was a complete dogs dinner that reflected well on no one but for me Clarke just about comes out better than Ward (who whichever way you look at it buggered up the season last year), the board (who seemed to make a panicked decision) or the players (who gave up); Clarke got things wrong as a novice and that seems the more forgivable of those sins yet I still wouldn't have kept him. Being least to blame is hardly a reason to stay in a job. But the way I look at it now, I'm pleased to have been proved wrong; it could have been a disaster and instead we're 2nd in the league. Not perfect, I'm not going to be annointing him a Rovers legend anytime soon but there seems to be a modicum of progress being made. I don't really understand why you're so shocked at the support he's getting from people; if you're drowning in the middle of the ocean what you'd really want is a lifeboat but you'd still be bloody elated if you managed come across a dinghy. Yes, it's close to the absolute least we can expect but hell it's better than nothing and we've seen a whole lot of worse than nothing for a long time. I quite like Martin Allen by the way (though he is a bit of a creator of his own myth) but I think there's a much clearer case for appointing him last March than last July.
|
|
kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,263
|
Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 10, 2015 1:05:01 GMT
After all the experienced Dave Penney showed who to do a good job! He never stood a chance with the triumvirate of CAMPBELL, Lines and Anthony causing a mutiny.
|
|
|
Post by Curly Wurly on Feb 10, 2015 10:57:41 GMT
Can't agree with this. The keeper made two fantastic saves, one was a desperate clearance off the line, two the keeper knew nothing about but got lucky. I'd probably agree that he could have done better with the header that hit the post, but you also have to admire his composure for setting up Blissett's goal, when most strikers would have blasted a shot and missed. His goal record is better than Rickie Lambert's first season with Rovers (2006-7) and only 2 behind Lambert's next season (2007-8). ISTM that too many are buying into the myth that Taylor is a "non scoring striker"
|
|