oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 6,512
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Post by oldie on Aug 7, 2024 19:47:07 GMT
Fer gawd's sake. When are you going to realise that the immigration failure is the result of both Labour and Tory policies? And to even mention Brexit in your post is just infantile. Brexit was the result of a national vote by the people. The fact that Labour and the Tories then turned it into a party political issue was shameful. Let's not forget that 17.2 million people voted for Brexit. Only 9 million people voted for this Labour government. The Tories did not lead anyone into Brexit. In fact the Tory government of the day was a Remain government. The HoC was, and still is, a Remain HoC. Why are you trying to rewrite historical fact? I'm not, and didn't say the Tories led us into Brexit. I said the threat of the Right led the Tories into the Brexit mess, which was totally mismanaged as I'm sure people on all sides agree. Shhhhh Some don't want to accept responsibility for effing up our country, some are too unaware to even understand that
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Post by Nobbygas on Aug 8, 2024 6:25:05 GMT
I'm not, and didn't say the Tories led us into Brexit. I said the threat of the Right led the Tories into the Brexit mess, which was totally mismanaged as I'm sure people on all sides agree. Shhhhh Some don't want to accept responsibility for effing up our country, some are too unaware to even understand that Once again, why don't you stick to the issue being discussed instead of attempting these nasty snidey digs. What is wrong with you?
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Post by baselswh on Aug 8, 2024 12:42:21 GMT
Talking to the media taking questions,Two Tier Kier.
He was saying how brilliantly last night went and the quick judgement and imprisonment of thugs etc.
A reporter asked him,'seeing as things are going so well,are you now going to address the immigration topic,one millions of Britons are concerned about'.
Two Tier swerved the question.
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,645
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Post by Cheshiregas on Aug 8, 2024 13:43:17 GMT
Talking to the media taking questions,Two Tier Kier. He was saying how brilliantly last night went and the quick judgement and imprisonment of thugs etc. A reporter asked him,'seeing as things are going so wel l,are you now going to address the immigration topic,one millions of Britons are concerned about'. Two Tier swerved the question. Labour has already started taking people out of the country. The Government is also talking to the EU and other European nations about the migration issue and overall European Security.
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bluetornados
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 14,774
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Post by bluetornados on Aug 8, 2024 13:48:11 GMT
PM pledges 'no let-up' in efforts to prevent further riots ahead of emergency meeting..by Francesca Gillett and Johanna Chisholmichef.bbci.co.uk/ace/standard/1024/cpsprodpb/3d25/live/b7e4ac90-557b-11ef-8f0f-0577398c3339.jpgSir Keir Starmer was visiting a mosque in the West Midlands and spoke to reporters afterwards about the unrest. He says it's "important that we don't let up" - which is why he'll be chairing another Cobra meeting this afternoon with law enforcement officials. Asked what lessons there are to be learned from the disorder, Starmer says the most important lesson is the one which people sentenced to prison will learn. "Anybody involving themselves in disorder - whatever they claim as their motive - will feel the full force of the law." Keir Starmer, also said the UK didn't see the disorder that many feared last night because "we had police deployed, in numbers, in the right places". He also says yesterday's sentencing of Derek Drummond who was jailed for 3 years sent a "powerful message" that the criminal justice system is working speedily. He also says that the work "being done jointly to reassure our communities" is becoming more effective.
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,281
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Post by trymer on Aug 8, 2024 15:48:35 GMT
The Labour MP for Rochester is in a bit of hot water now that offensive tweets that she made a while ago have come to light..calling people 'Estonian retards' not very PC.
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,645
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Post by Cheshiregas on Aug 8, 2024 16:22:52 GMT
The Labour MP for Rochester is in a bit of hot water now that offensive tweets that she made a while ago have come to light..calling people 'Estonian retards' not very PC. Labour have a good track record recently on dealing with this kind of thing and I hope they deal with it accordingly. It's a shame the previous Government couldn't have done the same.
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,645
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Post by Cheshiregas on Aug 8, 2024 16:34:25 GMT
The Labour MP for Rochester is in a bit of hot water now that offensive tweets that she made a while ago have come to light..calling people 'Estonian retards' not very PC. Labour have a good track record recently on dealing with this kind of thing and I hope they deal with it accordingly. It's a shame the previous Government couldn't have done the same. Just seen and read her apology about the messages which were sent 11-13 years ago which have come to light. Perhaps as Rishi said about the racist remarks by their donor more recently. She regrets them, she has said sorry, we should move on.... Or do people think she should be punished and that Rishi was wrong. I said at the time they should have given the money back [which of course they didn't, they took more], so she should likewise be reprimanded by the Labour Party and dealt with accordingly. She should really have taken advice from Rishi, Boris and Matt Hancock and deleted all her old messages.....
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,281
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Post by trymer on Aug 8, 2024 16:44:46 GMT
Labour have a good track record recently on dealing with this kind of thing and I hope they deal with it accordingly. It's a shame the previous Government couldn't have done the same. Just seen and read her apology about the messages which were sent 11-13 years ago which have come to light. Perhaps as Rishi said about the racist remarks by their donor more recently. She regrets them, she has said sorry, we should move on.... Or do people think she should be punished and that Rishi was wrong. I said at the time they should have given the money back [which of course they didn't, they took more], so she should likewise be reprimanded by the Labour Party and dealt with accordingly. She should really have taken advice from Rishi, Boris and Matt Hancock and deleted all her old messages..... They're all the same..... Starmer was right in one way it was time for a change but not in the way he had in mind. When we see what percentage of the electorate even voted its obvious that people have last faith in the political parties...
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 6,512
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Post by oldie on Aug 8, 2024 16:47:16 GMT
Just seen and read her apology about the messages which were sent 11-13 years ago which have come to light. Perhaps as Rishi said about the racist remarks by their donor more recently. She regrets them, she has said sorry, we should move on.... Or do people think she should be punished and that Rishi was wrong. I said at the time they should have given the money back [which of course they didn't, they took more], so she should likewise be reprimanded by the Labour Party and dealt with accordingly. She should really have taken advice from Rishi, Boris and Matt Hancock and deleted all her old messages..... They're all the same..... Starmer was right in one way it was time for a change but not in the way he had in mind. When we see what percentage of the electorate even voted its obvious that people have last faith in the political parties... What is the viable alternative?
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aghast
David Williams
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 607
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Post by aghast on Aug 8, 2024 16:58:52 GMT
They're all the same..... Starmer was right in one way it was time for a change but not in the way he had in mind. When we see what percentage of the electorate even voted its obvious that people have last faith in the political parties... What is the viable alternative? It's not viable, but we saw an example of the alternative last week on our streets.
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,281
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Post by trymer on Aug 8, 2024 16:59:54 GMT
They're all the same..... Starmer was right in one way it was time for a change but not in the way he had in mind. When we see what percentage of the electorate even voted its obvious that people have last faith in the political parties... What is the viable alternative? I really dont know...I can see that theres a problem but I am not qualified to fix it...I can fault find on some practical jobs but i dont always possess the necessary skills to do the repairs, someone needs to find the answer or we might look back on these riots as the good old days.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 6,512
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Post by oldie on Aug 8, 2024 17:02:23 GMT
What is the viable alternative? It's not viable, but we saw an example of the alternative last week on our streets. Yes we did.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 6,512
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Post by oldie on Aug 8, 2024 17:07:04 GMT
What is the viable alternative? I really dont know...I can see that theres a problem but I am not qualified to fix it...I can fault find on some practical jobs but i dont always possess the necessary skills to do the repairs, someone needs to find the answer or we might look back on these riots as the good old days. If you do not, cannot, suggest a viable alternative, do you not see any danger in continuously undermining the system we do have?
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,645
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Post by Cheshiregas on Aug 8, 2024 17:34:38 GMT
They're all the same..... Starmer was right in one way it was time for a change but not in the way he had in mind. When we see what percentage of the electorate even voted its obvious that people have last faith in the political parties... What is the viable alternative? - Voting is still the best way to protect a democracy although there are better methods than first past the post. Proportional Representation has proven to support this but the method would have to be chosen carefully to avoid extremists from all sides being able to manipulate the vote. - Ensuring that all Government Representatives especially MPs have GCHQ issued phones and applications from which messages are automatically backed up to an independent secure cloud system so that even if messages are deleted they can be retrieved. - That all donors to political parties are vetted independently by the security services to ensure no foreign interference or donations from enemy states such as Russia and China - That all invitations to events for Government Representatives especially MPs are vetted independently by the security services to ensure no foreign interference and attendance lists of such events are made known to the security services. That Government materials such as Red Box documentation and other Government documents especially those of a sensitive nature are not permitted to be taken to events where people with known connections to enemy states such as Russia and China are present especially if the representative will consuming copious amounts of alcohol - that the oath of allegiance should be to protecting the democracy and peoples of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland and its sovereign dominions and not to an individual who has no power to change what a Government does - that all Government Representatives especially MPs should not publish any statement without ensuring the veracity of what they are saying and have to say unequivocally state that their statement is either fact based or simply their opinion. In other words an MP can say 'In my own opinion immigration is overwhelming the UK.' Or 'In my opinion immigration is overwhelming the UK. I say this because the evidence of the ONS/Audit Office/Government statistics/etc show that....' - all newspapers should be owned by people who are resident and tax paying in the United Kingdom and articles should have to be able to prove source and facts if challenged, unless to do so would compromise national security or endanger the lives of those sources. Laws similar to Germany around freedom and censorship could be introduced especially with the promotion of regional newspapers. The onus should be on owners to wherever possible present fact based journalism not just the promotion of random opinion. We do not have a free press, it is mostly owned by non dom billionaires who do not have the best intentions of this country at heart. The above is not absolute but would go some way to begin restoring confidence and trust. I am interested to hear other folks views.
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,281
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Post by trymer on Aug 8, 2024 17:45:43 GMT
I really dont know...I can see that theres a problem but I am not qualified to fix it...I can fault find on some practical jobs but i dont always possess the necessary skills to do the repairs, someone needs to find the answer or we might look back on these riots as the good old days. If you do not, cannot, suggest a viable alternative, do you not see any danger in continuously undermining the system we do have? No because I can see that theres a problem and so can the tens of millions who no longer vote, what we are doing by continuing like this is like hearing an expensive noise coming from the car engine but turning the radio up so that we can no longer hear the noise...its still going to blow up and the longer you leave it the worse it will be.
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,281
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Post by trymer on Aug 8, 2024 17:52:13 GMT
What is the viable alternative? - Voting is still the best way to protect a democracy although there are better methods than first past the post. Proportional Representation has proven to support this but the method would have to be chosen carefully to avoid extremists from all sides being able to manipulate the vote. - Ensuring that all Government Representatives especially MPs have GCHQ issued phones and applications from which messages are automatically backed up to an independent secure cloud system so that even if messages are deleted they can be retrieved. - That all donors to political parties are vetted independently by the security services to ensure no foreign interference or donations from enemy states such as Russia and China - That all invitations to events for Government Representatives especially MPs are vetted independently by the security services to ensure no foreign interference and attendance lists of such events are made known to the security services. That Government materials such as Red Box documentation and other Government documents especially those of a sensitive nature are not permitted to be taken to events where people with known connections to enemy states such as Russia and China are present especially if the representative will consuming copious amounts of alcohol - that the oath of allegiance should be to protecting the democracy and peoples of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland and its sovereign dominions and not to an individual who has no power to change what a Government does - that all Government Representatives especially MPs should not publish any statement without ensuring the veracity of what they are saying and have to say unequivocally state that their statement is either fact based or simply their opinion. In other words an MP can say 'In my own opinion immigration is overwhelming the UK.' Or 'In my opinion immigration is overwhelming the UK. I say this because the evidence of the ONS/Audit Office/Government statistics/etc show that....' - all newspapers should be owned by people who are resident and tax paying in the United Kingdom and articles should have to be able to prove source and facts if challenged, unless to do so would compromise national security or endanger the lives of those sources. Laws similar to Germany around freedom and censorship could be introduced especially with the promotion of regional newspapers. The onus should be on owners to wherever possible present fact based journalism not just the promotion of random opinion. We do not have a free press, it is mostly owned by non dom billionaires who do not have the best intentions of this country at heart. The above is not absolute but would go some way to begin restoring confidence and trust. I am interested to hear other folks views. That all sounds quite sensible imo. I think that there should be some rules or standards about who can stand to become an MP, so many dodgy people and their antics over the years have degraded the credibility of MPs even Prime ministers. I suppose that proportional representation would break the Lib/Lab/Con club and people would feel that their vote counted more,maybe lots of Independent MPs and MPs from smaller parties. Ownership of vital industries by foreign powers is something that i think shouldnt have been able to take place.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 6,512
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Post by oldie on Aug 8, 2024 17:58:11 GMT
If you do not, cannot, suggest a viable alternative, do you not see any danger in continuously undermining the system we do have? No because I can see that theres a problem and so can the tens of millions who no longer vote, what we are doing by continuing like this is like hearing an expensive noise coming from the car engine but turning the radio up so that we can no longer hear the noise...its still going to blow up and the longer you leave it the worse it will be. To use your own analogy, you go out and buy another car. You don't sit on the couch shouting at it. It's easy to say you disagree, it's harder to have a view which is backed up by evidence
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,281
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Post by trymer on Aug 8, 2024 18:10:54 GMT
No because I can see that theres a problem and so can the tens of millions who no longer vote, what we are doing by continuing like this is like hearing an expensive noise coming from the car engine but turning the radio up so that we can no longer hear the noise...its still going to blow up and the longer you leave it the worse it will be. To use your own analogy, you go out and buy another car. You don't sit on the couch shouting at it. It's easy to say you disagree, it's harder to have a view which is backed up by evidence I would take the car to someone who knows what they are doing and has the diagnostic equipment and explain to them the symptoms and see what they said however in this case the evidence is that tens of millions arent voting,democracy looks like a farce to many and society is in a mess...but if you're happy with how things are and cant see any problems and dont think that needs to change thats your prerogative ....if you are like that with cars I recommend AA relay or Green flag.
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aghast
David Williams
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 607
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Post by aghast on Aug 8, 2024 18:23:04 GMT
Anyone can stand for Parliament on almost any policy. There are a huge range of alternative candidates available in many if not most constituencies, from hard left to hard right and indeed neither.
If people choose not to vote for the people who have policies they might sympathise with, blaming the system seems to be missing the point. Voter apathy isn't the fault of the system.
I have always been a supporter of some kind of PR but even with that, Reform would only be a fairly small party in the HoC with 14% of the vote.
Just because some people don't like the government, it doesn't mean the people who elected this government are wrong. It suggests that there are far more people who do not want to vote Reform than those who do.
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