oldie
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Jul 3, 2024 22:03:30 GMT
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Post by oldie on Jul 3, 2024 22:03:30 GMT
France politics attempts to block the far right.....The deadline for declarations ended Tuesday, with large numbers of left and centre candidates standing aside in order to try to block the far-right National Rally (RN). Parties had till 18:00 local time (17:00 GMT) to register contenders for Sunday’s second round of parliamentary elections. With no official list yet released, French media reported that between 214 and 218 third-placed contenders had pulled out of the race in their constituencies. It means there will now be around 108 three-way races, instead of just over 300. The rest will be two-way run-offs, apart from in two constituencies where four candidates qualified. Last Sunday’s first round produced a big victory for the party of Marine Le Pen, which - with allies - won around 33% of the vote. A broad left-wing alliance came second, and President Emmanuel Macron’s centrists third. But Ms Le Pen’s chances of winning an outright majority in the 577-seat National Assembly have been dented by the blocking tactics of her party’s enemies. Where third-placed centre or left candidates pull out, the anti-RN vote is focused on a single candidate, making victory easier over the RN contender. The leftwing New Popular Front (NPF) – which comprises everyone from centre-left social democrats to far-left anti-capitalists – issued instructions to all of its third-placed candidates to step down and let a centrist reap the anti-RN vote. The NPF is thus helping two senior pro-Macron MPs – former prime minister Elisabeth Borne and Interior Minister Gérald Darmanin – to win in their constituencies in Normandy and the north. Conversely a pro-Macron candidate has stood down in order to help radical leftwinger François Ruffin defeat the RN candidate in the northern city of Amiens. The RN’s 28 year-old president and hopeful for prime minister Jordan Bardella condemned these arrangements as the fruit of an “alliance of dishonour” between parties that had until now been at each other’s throats. Instructions to candidates from Macron’s centrist bloc have been more ambiguous than the NPF’s. Though Macron himself and Prime Minister Gabriel Attal have called for “no vote for the RN”, some in his camp believe its far-left component makes the NPF equally unpalatable. Senior figures like Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire and former prime minister Edouard Philippe – both originally from the centre-right – are refusing to issue instructions to vote systematically against the RN... interesting tactics afoot... When they play games like this it shows their contempt for democracy and voters....they should be careful,what will happen when people say that democracy is a waste of time ? It is democracy It's combining the majority of voters who did NOT vote for RN from achieving power. Now if RN had achieved 50% then you might have point, but they did not and therefore you don't. |
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baselswh
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Jul 3, 2024 23:53:07 GMT
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Post by baselswh on Jul 3, 2024 23:53:07 GMT
When they play games like this it shows their contempt for democracy and voters....they should be careful,what will happen when people say that democracy is a waste of time ? It is democracy It's combining the majority of voters who did NOT vote for RN from achieving power. Now if RN had achieved 50% then you might have point, but they did not and therefore you don't. Frustrating as it is for the Right,that's the way it is and I do see that's a form of democracy. Here's a question Oldie and anyone else.... This evening I met a couple of freinds from Basel up at the Wellington/Welly.They've been enjoying the South West and The Manic Street Preachers gig at Cornwall. One of them absolutely believes that Marine Le Pen,if she gains power in France,will do her best to stay in power somehow,anyhow ,without another democratic election. Fascism. I said this is something I had not even considered and thought Marine Le Pen would try to survive in power through democratic means. My question is and to anybody,do you think eg Wilder in Holland or Farage in UK or as my discussion with Swiss friends went Marine Le Pen in France,if they were in power,would they literally try and stay in power,through undemocratic means,therefore fascism ? |
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oldie
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Jul 4, 2024 0:27:06 GMT
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Post by oldie on Jul 4, 2024 0:27:06 GMT
It is democracy It's combining the majority of voters who did NOT vote for RN from achieving power. Now if RN had achieved 50% then you might have point, but they did not and therefore you don't. Frustrating as it is for the Right,that's the way it is and I do see that's a form of democracy. Here's a question Oldie and anyone else.... This evening I met a couple of freinds from Basel up at the Wellington/Welly.They've been enjoying the South West and The Manic Street Preachers gig at Cornwall. One of them absolutely believes that Marine Le Pen,if she gains power in France,will do her best to stay in power somehow,anyhow ,without another democratic election. Fascism. I said this is something I had not even considered and thought Marine Le Pen would try to survive in power through democratic means. My question is and to anybody,do you think eg Wilder in Holland or Farage in UK or as my discussion with Swiss friends went Marine Le Pen in France,if they were in power,would they literally try and stay in power,through undemocratic means,therefore fascism ? Decent conversation Basel. My opinion. Any party of the extremes, Left or Right of the spectrum, tend to be: A) So totally convinced they are right B) Megalomaniacs drunk on power C) Malevolent in the worse sense of the word That they feel justified on overturning democracy. We have examples in Russia, China, Myanmar. Don't forget it was recent as the 1970s that Spain and Greece had ultra right demagogues in power. I posted today a link to a discussion document out of an academic institution in the States which expressed fears as you describe if Trump wins. Here, the danger is out of ashes of chaos. Our country is in a mess and out of that creaking, crumbling state of affairs rises a chaotic party like Reform. It's not a democratically run party (a private company 85% owned by Farage and Tice) so it has no internal checks and balances. If they should gain power with that structure it would in effect be a dictatorship. Once granted power democratic vote they could change the voting rules without Parliamentary constraint and no internal dissent. A defacto dictatorship. |
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baselswh
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Jul 4, 2024 6:45:53 GMT
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Post by baselswh on Jul 4, 2024 6:45:53 GMT
Frustrating as it is for the Right,that's the way it is and I do see that's a form of democracy. Here's a question Oldie and anyone else.... This evening I met a couple of freinds from Basel up at the Wellington/Welly.They've been enjoying the South West and The Manic Street Preachers gig at Cornwall. One of them absolutely believes that Marine Le Pen,if she gains power in France,will do her best to stay in power somehow,anyhow ,without another democratic election. Fascism. I said this is something I had not even considered and thought Marine Le Pen would try to survive in power through democratic means. My question is and to anybody,do you think eg Wilder in Holland or Farage in UK or as my discussion with Swiss friends went Marine Le Pen in France,if they were in power,would they literally try and stay in power,through undemocratic means,therefore fascism ? Decent conversation Basel. My opinion. Any party of the extremes, Left or Right of the spectrum, tend to be: A) So totally convinced they are right B) Megalomaniacs drunk on power C) Malevolent in the worse sense of the word That they feel justified on overturning democracy. We have examples in Russia, China, Myanmar. Don't forget it was recent as the 1970s that Spain and Greece had ultra right demagogues in power. I posted today a link to a discussion document out of an academic institution in the States which expressed fears as you describe if Trump wins. Here, the danger is out of ashes of chaos. Our country is in a mess and out of that creaking, crumbling state of affairs rises a chaotic party like Reform. It's not a democratically run party (a private company 85% owned by Farage and Tice) so it has no internal checks and balances. If they should gain power with that structure it would in effect be a dictatorship. Once granted power democratic vote they could change the voting rules without Parliamentary constraint and no internal dissent. A defacto dictatorship. I suppose the House Of Lords, would be an example of corruption too.Okay,not having the last word or final decision ,but the place has many Party donors amongst its ranks. The rise or fall of the Reform Party will be an interesting one.How they stand nationally and how the party organisation within developes. In the scenario the polls are correct and todays General Election sees Labour gain power with a massive majority and Reform get eg 5,000,000 votes ( maybe a similar situation for the Greens ), but only 3 seats,will our new Government be open to Britons being able to put their name to petitions to force referrendems on issues they feel are of vital importance or simply the whole country deserve to have their say, rather than only Westminster? I assume the new Labour Government will be happy with the status quo, as it will serve them well with their huge majority,but possibly and eg ,5,000,000 Reform voters plus 5,000,000 Green voters will probably shout for change ( but not necessarily in harmony 😏 ). Being against this democratic change would seem ,let's call it, ' not democratic enough'. |
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oldie
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Jul 4, 2024 6:52:39 GMT
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Post by oldie on Jul 4, 2024 6:52:39 GMT
Decent conversation Basel. My opinion. Any party of the extremes, Left or Right of the spectrum, tend to be: A) So totally convinced they are right B) Megalomaniacs drunk on power C) Malevolent in the worse sense of the word That they feel justified on overturning democracy. We have examples in Russia, China, Myanmar. Don't forget it was recent as the 1970s that Spain and Greece had ultra right demagogues in power. I posted today a link to a discussion document out of an academic institution in the States which expressed fears as you describe if Trump wins. Here, the danger is out of ashes of chaos. Our country is in a mess and out of that creaking, crumbling state of affairs rises a chaotic party like Reform. It's not a democratically run party (a private company 85% owned by Farage and Tice) so it has no internal checks and balances. If they should gain power with that structure it would in effect be a dictatorship. Once granted power democratic vote they could change the voting rules without Parliamentary constraint and no internal dissent. A defacto dictatorship. I suppose the House Of Lords, would be an example of corruption too.Okay,not having the last word or final decision ,but the place has many Party donors amongst its ranks. The rise or fall of the Reform Party will be an interesting one.How they stand nationally and how the party organisation within developes. In the scenario the polls are correct and todays General Election sees Labour gain power with a massive majority and Reform get eg 5,000,000 votes ( maybe a similar situation for the Greens ), but only 3 seats,will our new Government be open to Britons being able to put their name to petitions to force referrendi on issues they feel are of vital importance or simply the whole country deserve to have their say, rather than only Westminster? I assume the new Labour Government will be happy with the status quo, as it will serve them well with their huge majority,but possibly and eg ,5,000,000 Reform voters plus 5,000,000 Green voters will probably shout for change ( but not necessarily in harmony 😏 ). Being against this democratic change would seem ,let's call it, ' not democratic enough'. That does not reflect your original question. But in any event the existence of an "appointed" 2nd chamber, the so called House of Lords, not democratically selected, is an affront to democracy and needs to be shut down. Back to your original question, let me ask you, are you comfortable with the Reform Party's structure? |
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2024
Jul 4, 2024 13:33:13 GMT
Post by Nobbygas on Jul 4, 2024 13:33:13 GMT
It is democracy It's combining the majority of voters who did NOT vote for RN from achieving power. Now if RN had achieved 50% then you might have point, but they did not and therefore you don't. Frustrating as it is for the Right,that's the way it is and I do see that's a form of democracy. Here's a question Oldie and anyone else.... This evening I met a couple of freinds from Basel up at the Wellington/Welly.They've been enjoying the South West and The Manic Street Preachers gig at Cornwall. One of them absolutely believes that Marine Le Pen,if she gains power in France,will do her best to stay in power somehow,anyhow ,without another democratic election. Fascism. I said this is something I had not even considered and thought Marine Le Pen would try to survive in power through democratic means. My question is and to anybody,do you think eg Wilder in Holland or Farage in UK or as my discussion with Swiss friends went Marine Le Pen in France,if they were in power,would they literally try and stay in power,through undemocratic means,therefore fascism ? "if they were in power,would they literally try and stay in power,through undemocratic means,therefore fascism ?" - Communists have done exactly this historically! |
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2024
Jul 4, 2024 13:34:52 GMT
Post by Nobbygas on Jul 4, 2024 13:34:52 GMT
Frustrating as it is for the Right,that's the way it is and I do see that's a form of democracy. Here's a question Oldie and anyone else.... This evening I met a couple of freinds from Basel up at the Wellington/Welly.They've been enjoying the South West and The Manic Street Preachers gig at Cornwall. One of them absolutely believes that Marine Le Pen,if she gains power in France,will do her best to stay in power somehow,anyhow ,without another democratic election. Fascism. I said this is something I had not even considered and thought Marine Le Pen would try to survive in power through democratic means. My question is and to anybody,do you think eg Wilder in Holland or Farage in UK or as my discussion with Swiss friends went Marine Le Pen in France,if they were in power,would they literally try and stay in power,through undemocratic means,therefore fascism ? Decent conversation Basel. My opinion. Any party of the extremes, Left or Right of the spectrum, tend to be: A) So totally convinced they are right B) Megalomaniacs drunk on power C) Malevolent in the worse sense of the word That they feel justified on overturning democracy. We have examples in Russia, China, Myanmar. Don't forget it was recent as the 1970s that Spain and Greece had ultra right demagogues in power. I posted today a link to a discussion document out of an academic institution in the States which expressed fears as you describe if Trump wins. Here, the danger is out of ashes of chaos. Our country is in a mess and out of that creaking, crumbling state of affairs rises a chaotic party like Reform. It's not a democratically run party (a private company 85% owned by Farage and Tice) so it has no internal checks and balances. If they should gain power with that structure it would in effect be a dictatorship. Once granted power democratic vote they could change the voting rules without Parliamentary constraint and no internal dissent. A defacto dictatorship. "Once granted power democratic vote they could change the voting rules without Parliamentary constraint and no internal dissent." - No they couldn't. |
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oldie
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Jul 4, 2024 14:04:08 GMT
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Post by oldie on Jul 4, 2024 14:04:08 GMT
Decent conversation Basel. My opinion. Any party of the extremes, Left or Right of the spectrum, tend to be: A) So totally convinced they are right B) Megalomaniacs drunk on power C) Malevolent in the worse sense of the word That they feel justified on overturning democracy. We have examples in Russia, China, Myanmar. Don't forget it was recent as the 1970s that Spain and Greece had ultra right demagogues in power. I posted today a link to a discussion document out of an academic institution in the States which expressed fears as you describe if Trump wins. Here, the danger is out of ashes of chaos. Our country is in a mess and out of that creaking, crumbling state of affairs rises a chaotic party like Reform. It's not a democratically run party (a private company 85% owned by Farage and Tice) so it has no internal checks and balances. If they should gain power with that structure it would in effect be a dictatorship. Once granted power democratic vote they could change the voting rules without Parliamentary constraint and no internal dissent. A defacto dictatorship. "Once granted power democratic vote they could change the voting rules without Parliamentary constraint and no internal dissent." - No they couldn't. Why not |
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2024
Jul 4, 2024 14:06:01 GMT
Post by Nobbygas on Jul 4, 2024 14:06:01 GMT
"Once granted power democratic vote they could change the voting rules without Parliamentary constraint and no internal dissent." - No they couldn't. Why not Why not is obvious. I'd love to hear how you think this would, or could, happen. |
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oldie
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Jul 4, 2024 14:25:26 GMT
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Post by oldie on Jul 4, 2024 14:25:26 GMT
Why not is obvious. I'd love to hear how you think this would, or could, happen. Say why it's obvious |
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trymer
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Jul 4, 2024 17:01:11 GMT
Post by trymer on Jul 4, 2024 17:01:11 GMT
I expect that the other parties will manage to distort democracy enough to beat Le Pen.
However after a night of celebration they will wake up to realise that they have voted in something far worse for FRance than the NR would have been....oh dear.
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trymer
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Jul 4, 2024 17:03:38 GMT
Post by trymer on Jul 4, 2024 17:03:38 GMT
German car companies upset with the EU who are putting tariffs on Chinese electric cars...the Chinese will probably do something similar to EU made cars....oh dear.
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oldie
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Jul 4, 2024 19:00:56 GMT
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Post by oldie on Jul 4, 2024 19:00:56 GMT
I expect that the other parties will manage to distort democracy enough to beat Le Pen. However after a night of celebration they will wake up to realise that they have voted in something far worse for FRance than the NR would have been....oh dear. Voting choice is a distortion of democracy shocker...who knew?😂😂😂 Some people honestly |
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trymer
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Jul 4, 2024 21:17:49 GMT
Post by trymer on Jul 4, 2024 21:17:49 GMT
30,000 Police on stand by for leftist violence after this weekends French election.
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trymer
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Jul 7, 2024 19:06:16 GMT
Post by trymer on Jul 7, 2024 19:06:16 GMT
2024 will have a lot of elections and with 2 major conflicts going on we have to hope for the best. EU elections,will parties on the right be able to get more Euro MPs and change the direction of the EU ? Can Trump win in the US elections ? he has promised to stop the war in Ukraine,lets hope that that war hasnt spread to neighbouring countries before he can end it. Gaza, this has the possibility to cause lots of problems in the Middle East (and in Europe if there are terror attacks) again if Trump wins will he pull out of bases in Iraq and Syria ? will the Iranians cause problems ? will Israel invade Lebanon again ? Going to be interesting. When I started this thread we knew that there were going to be lots of elections in 2024, one that we didnt know would happen is the one in France next week. The French economy isnt looking very good at the moment but if (and I hope that he does) Melenchon wins the election France could virtually collapse financially AND descend into riots,chaos...even civil war, these events could destroy the EU....thank the gods (and common sense) for Brexit Well it seems that Melenchon has won (hurrah) lets see if the rest of my predictions come true.... |
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bluetornados
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Jul 7, 2024 23:13:46 GMT
Post by bluetornados on Jul 7, 2024 23:13:46 GMT
ichef.bbci.co.uk/ace/standard/1024/cpsprodpb/817d/live/bf4f2440-3ca5-11ef-a044-9d4367d5b599.jpgFrance's far-right National Rally (RN) has failed to win a majority in parliamentary elections, exit polls say Projections show a victory for the left-wing New Popular Front (NFP) alliance President Emmanuel Macron's centrist Ensemble alliance is set to come second with the RN third RN leader Jordan Bardella said France had been "deprived" of his party's victory and pushed towards "uncertainty and instability" Macron is analysing the results, the Élysée Palace said, and is not expected to comment tonight This was the second round of voting in France's snap parliamentary election, which Macron called a month ago After the RN did well in the first round a week ago, leftist or centrist candidates in many places withdrew - a tactical move to allow anti-RN votes to go to one contender The election took place in a tense atmosphere, with 30,000 police deployed across France ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/800/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2024/7/7/805e1c6e-2d8f-4062-b656-3830f9f30479.jpg
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trymer
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Jul 8, 2024 7:20:56 GMT
Post by trymer on Jul 8, 2024 7:20:56 GMT
When I started this thread we knew that there were going to be lots of elections in 2024, one that we didnt know would happen is the one in France next week. The French economy isnt looking very good at the moment but if (and I hope that he does) Melenchon wins the election France could virtually collapse financially AND descend into riots,chaos...even civil war, these events could destroy the EU....thank the gods (and common sense) for Brexit Unsurprisingly a Reform supporter and Putin apologist advocates violence to bring about change he advocates for the EU. Not much democracy there is there As I dont read many of your posts i had missed this one..."Putin apologist" thats a very serious accusation, as I think that Putin is a KGB trained thug and I am sure that I have said that here previously perhaps you would like to show some evidence of me being a "Putin apologist". An apology is unnecessary but a simple admission that you are wrong would suffice...I dont want to involve the mods as I am aware that your next ban will be a permanent one... |
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oldie
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Jul 8, 2024 9:43:45 GMT
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Post by oldie on Jul 8, 2024 9:43:45 GMT
Unsurprisingly a Reform supporter and Putin apologist advocates violence to bring about change he advocates for the EU. Not much democracy there is there As I dont read many of your posts i had missed this one..."Putin apologist" thats a very serious accusation, as I think that Putin is a KGB trained thug and I am sure that I have said that here previously perhaps you would like to show some evidence of me being a "Putin apologist". An apology is unnecessary but a simple admission that you are wrong would suffice...I dont want to involve the mods as I am aware that your next ban will be a permanent one... Ok. Perhaps I extrapolated your general comments to an extreme, for which I withdraw that comment. But I do not accept the proposition that we pushed or antagonised Putin into invading Ukraine. |
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bluetornados
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Jul 8, 2024 11:38:29 GMT
Post by bluetornados on Jul 8, 2024 11:38:29 GMT
ichef.bbci.co.uk/ace/standard/1024/cpsprodpb/4105/live/39d1cb50-3cf1-11ef-bbe0-29f79e992ddd.jpgPrime Minister Gabriel Attal resigns but French President Emmanuel Macron asks him to stay in the role for now to "ensure stability" after the election France is facing political deadlock after parliamentary elections deal a blow to the far-right National Rally - but leave no party with a majority National Rally have been pushed to third place, behind a hastily assembled left-wing alliance and Macron's centrists While Macron must work with parliament, this election doesn't directly affect his job - he has three years left of his presidential term The results come with just 18 days to go until Paris hosts the Olympic Games ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/796/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2024/7/8/cd2556d1-1460-45c3-8e73-229b705e1162.pngReport by Paul Kirby, Europe digital editor.We're now getting a much clearer picture of how many actual seats the parties have won. Based on a calculation by French newspaper Le Monde, which uses government polling data, we’ve come up with this chart. It shows the New Popular Front leftist alliance as the biggest group in the new National Assembly, followed by President Macron’s centrist Ensemble party and, in third place, the far-right National Rally and its allies.
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trymer
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Jul 10, 2024 6:55:53 GMT
Post by trymer on Jul 10, 2024 6:55:53 GMT
As I dont read many of your posts i had missed this one..."Putin apologist" thats a very serious accusation, as I think that Putin is a KGB trained thug and I am sure that I have said that here previously perhaps you would like to show some evidence of me being a "Putin apologist". An apology is unnecessary but a simple admission that you are wrong would suffice...I dont want to involve the mods as I am aware that your next ban will be a permanent one... Ok. Perhaps I extrapolated your general comments to an extreme, for which I withdraw that comment. But I do not accept the proposition that we pushed or antagonised Putin into invading Ukraine. Antognised....well Zelensky is at the NATO summit in USA, another propaganda gift for Putin....what will he be saying to the Russian people now ? I think that NATO is a paper tiger, if (and I hope that it never happens) the Russia/China/N.Korea etc axis ever came into direct conflict with NATO i seriously think that the individual NATO members would all be trying to send the least troops possible (if any) and finding reasons to not get involved....of course thats just my opinion we will never know until it gets put to the test. |
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