Nobbygas
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Post by Nobbygas on Oct 24, 2023 6:17:55 GMT
If one side does not want peace and will only settle for the total death of the opposition, then it will never happen. Face reality. Of course. But is it one side, or one extremist faction? Even within Israel, is there only "one side"? Before HAMAS gave him an out, Netanyahu was in deep political trouble. Propped up by some of the worse Zionists extremists and trying to change the constitution, there were mass demonstrations and rumours of reservists refusing to obey orders. Any mature leader would embrace that opposition, sold it to rest of the world as to why supporting democracy as represented by that opposition as to opposed to the enforced rule of the lunatics in HAMAS (and Iran) who allow no opposition. But he cannot, because he is caught in the deadly embrace of the Zionists, which is developing as badly as the situation the Palestinians and Iranians find themselves in. They will tolerate no opposition eventually, the divine right of Jews and their chosen god will be the basis for eventual totalitarianism. Just like HAMAS, just like the clowns in Iran. So their solution is more violence, killing probably, by the time this all over, tens of thousands of Palestinians who may or may not support HAMAS acts of terror. This outcome plays right into the hands of the zealots on both sides. Probably one of the most ridiculous posts you've ever written. |
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oldie
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Post by oldie on Oct 24, 2023 6:35:51 GMT
Of course. But is it one side, or one extremist faction? Even within Israel, is there only "one side"? Before HAMAS gave him an out, Netanyahu was in deep political trouble. Propped up by some of the worse Zionists extremists and trying to change the constitution, there were mass demonstrations and rumours of reservists refusing to obey orders. Any mature leader would embrace that opposition, sold it to rest of the world as to why supporting democracy as represented by that opposition as to opposed to the enforced rule of the lunatics in HAMAS (and Iran) who allow no opposition. But he cannot, because he is caught in the deadly embrace of the Zionists, which is developing as badly as the situation the Palestinians and Iranians find themselves in. They will tolerate no opposition eventually, the divine right of Jews and their chosen god will be the basis for eventual totalitarianism. Just like HAMAS, just like the clowns in Iran. So their solution is more violence, killing probably, by the time this all over, tens of thousands of Palestinians who may or may not support HAMAS acts of terror. This outcome plays right into the hands of the zealots on both sides. Probably one of the most ridiculous posts you've ever written. But, per norm, you offer no articulate rebuttal. |
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Nobbygas
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Post by Nobbygas on Oct 24, 2023 15:25:28 GMT
Probably one of the most ridiculous posts you've ever written. But, per norm, you offer no articulate rebuttal. I don't need to. Anyone reading your post can draw their own conclusions. |
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oldie
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Post by oldie on Oct 24, 2023 16:19:16 GMT
But, per norm, you offer no articulate rebuttal. I don't need to. Anyone reading your post can draw their own conclusions. Ha ha. Roughly translated..."I cannot" 😂😂 |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2023 21:09:24 GMT
Make your arguments, please, gentlemen.
Insults and mockery are a bit boring.
You both have things to say. Say them.
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Nobbygas
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Post by Nobbygas on Oct 25, 2023 5:37:32 GMT
Make your arguments, please, gentlemen. Insults and mockery are a bit boring. You both have things to say. Say them. My apologies shoveler. However, the tone of Oldie's post was attempting to blame Israel. There is no greviance on this planet that justifies the barbaric actions of the Palestinians. I find these attempts at blaming Israel to be repugnent. How anyone can attempt to blame the internal politics of a democratic nation for the truly inhumane actions of the Palestinians is beyond me. We all know where Oldie's sympathies lay as he was once a Muslim, but I do not believe we should stand aside and let people with views like his go unchallenged. Debate with him on his post? No, as it is impossible to debate with someone with his deep entrenched anti Jewish views. Call out his views as being repugnent, yes. The Palestinians truly are the modern day Nazis. Given the time and opportunity they would perform the same type of program on the Jews that the Germans did. Of that there can be no doubt whatsoever. |
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oldie
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Post by oldie on Oct 25, 2023 10:22:42 GMT
Make your arguments, please, gentlemen. Insults and mockery are a bit boring. You both have things to say. Say them. My apologies shoveler. However, the tone of Oldie's post was attempting to blame Israel. There is no greviance on this planet that justifies the barbaric actions of the Palestinians. I find these attempts at blaming Israel to be repugnent. How anyone can attempt to blame the internal politics of a democratic nation for the truly inhumane actions of the Palestinians is beyond me. We all know where Oldie's sympathies lay as he was once a Muslim, but I do not believe we should stand aside and let people with views like his go unchallenged. Debate with him on his post? No, as it is impossible to debate with someone with his deep entrenched anti Jewish views. Call out his views as being repugnent, yes. The Palestinians truly are the modern day Nazis. Given the time and opportunity they would perform the same type of program on the Jews that the Germans did. Of that there can be no doubt whatsoever. Just for clarity this is what I said. "Of course. But is it one side, or one extremist faction? Even within Israel, is there only "one side"? Before HAMAS gave him an out, Netanyahu was in deep political trouble. Propped up by some of the worse Zionists extremists and trying to change the constitution, there were mass demonstrations and rumours of reservists refusing to obey orders. Any mature leader would embrace that opposition, sold it to rest of the world as to why supporting democracy as represented by that opposition as to opposed to the enforced rule of the lunatics in HAMAS (and Iran) who allow no opposition. But he cannot, because he is caught in the deadly embrace of the Zionists, which is developing as badly as the situation the Palestinians and Iranians find themselves in. They will tolerate no opposition eventually, the divine right of Jews and their chosen god will be the basis for eventual totalitarianism. Just like HAMAS, just like the clowns in Iran. So their solution is more violence, killing probably, by the time this all over, tens of thousands of Palestinians who may or may not support HAMAS acts of terror. This outcome plays right into the hands of the zealots on both sides." I am not blaming the Israelis, I am pointing what, in my opinion, was a missed opportunity to boast of their democracy by highlighting the rights of Israelis to protest and resist an increasingly oppressive government and compare that with the fascist regimes that prevail in GAZA and Iran. This would further isolate those regimes in the court of public opinion. As I said, resorting to revenge (although I get the instinct to do so) plays in to the hands of the lunatics in HAMAS and the Fascist Theocracy in Iran. Let's pray the latter doesn't play out on the Lebanese border. The jibe about me being a Muslim is to pathetic to be taken seriously. Ignore. |
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Nobbygas
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Post by Nobbygas on Oct 25, 2023 10:48:26 GMT
My apologies shoveler. However, the tone of Oldie's post was attempting to blame Israel. There is no greviance on this planet that justifies the barbaric actions of the Palestinians. I find these attempts at blaming Israel to be repugnent. How anyone can attempt to blame the internal politics of a democratic nation for the truly inhumane actions of the Palestinians is beyond me. We all know where Oldie's sympathies lay as he was once a Muslim, but I do not believe we should stand aside and let people with views like his go unchallenged. Debate with him on his post? No, as it is impossible to debate with someone with his deep entrenched anti Jewish views. Call out his views as being repugnent, yes. The Palestinians truly are the modern day Nazis. Given the time and opportunity they would perform the same type of program on the Jews that the Germans did. Of that there can be no doubt whatsoever. Just for clarity this is what I said. "Of course. But is it one side, or one extremist faction? Even within Israel, is there only "one side"? Before HAMAS gave him an out, Netanyahu was in deep political trouble. Propped up by some of the worse Zionists extremists and trying to change the constitution, there were mass demonstrations and rumours of reservists refusing to obey orders. Any mature leader would embrace that opposition, sold it to rest of the world as to why supporting democracy as represented by that opposition as to opposed to the enforced rule of the lunatics in HAMAS (and Iran) who allow no opposition. But he cannot, because he is caught in the deadly embrace of the Zionists, which is developing as badly as the situation the Palestinians and Iranians find themselves in. They will tolerate no opposition eventually, the divine right of Jews and their chosen god will be the basis for eventual totalitarianism. Just like HAMAS, just like the clowns in Iran. So their solution is more violence, killing probably, by the time this all over, tens of thousands of Palestinians who may or may not support HAMAS acts of terror. This outcome plays right into the hands of the zealots on both sides." I am not blaming the Israelis, I am pointing what, in my opinion, was a missed opportunity to boast of their democracy by highlighting the rights of Israelis to protest and resist an increasingly oppressive government and compare that with the fascist regimes that prevail in GAZA and Iran. This would further isolate those regimes in the court of public opinion. As I said, resorting to revenge (although I get the instinct to do so) plays in to the hands of the lunatics in HAMAS and the Fascist Theocracy in Iran. Let's pray the latter doesn't play out on the Lebanese border. The jibe about me being a Muslim is to pathetic to be taken seriously. Ignore. This line, "They will tolerate no opposition eventually, the divine right of Jews and their chosen god will be the basis for eventual totalitarianism. Just like HAMAS, just like the clowns in Iran." is just nonsense. "This would further isolate those regimes in the court of public opinion." - Just laughable! Do you really thing the Islamic nutjobs give a toss about about the "court of public opinion" ? Are you being serious? Israel are not out for revenge. They are going to attempt to destroy Hamas and all the other fanatical murdering b'stard factions in Gaza. They want to put a stop to the endless violence inflicted upon them once and for all. I fully support Israel's actions. It's about time someone eliminated the cancer that is Islamic extremism. There is no place for it in the civilized world. But it wasn't a jibe about you once being a Muslim? You have spoken about extensively in the past. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2023 14:21:30 GMT
Israelis are not Zionist totalitarians.
Palestinians are not Hamas Islamofascists.
In both cases, some are, and some are not.
Many want to live in peace with neighbours.
Hamas's rape and murder atrocities are no resistance against occupation, they are part of a jihad to kill the Jews 'from the river to the sea'. Hamas need to be destroyed, for the sake of both Israeli and Palestinian civilian survival. The Israeli government's reduction of Gaza to rubble is criminal, and Israel need to elect a government patiently to destroy Hamas and enfranchise the Palestinian people. It's possible that the two state solution is dead now. A universally enfranchised Israel/Palestine may be a dream, but it's a dream worth dreaming, because what happened on the 7th October, and what is happening now are truly awful.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Oct 25, 2023 21:04:38 GMT
Israelis are not Zionist totalitarians. Palestinians are not Hamas Islamofascists. In both cases, some are, and some are not. Many want to live in peace with neighbours. Hamas's rape and murder atrocities are no resistance against occupation, they are part of a jihad to kill the Jews 'from the river to the sea'. Hamas need to be destroyed, for the sake of both Israeli and Palestinian civilian survival. The Israeli government's reduction of Gaza to rubble is criminal, and Israel need to elect a government patiently to destroy Hamas and enfranchise the Palestinian people. It's possible that the two state solution is dead now. A universally enfranchised Israel/Palestine may be a dream, but it's a dream worth dreaming, because what happened on the 7th October, and what is happening now are truly awful. Shoveler Not yet. I said they are in danger of becoming thus. This is the current make up of the coalition government in Israel: Likud Shas Religious Zionism United Torah Judaism Otzma Yehudit Noam ShasA Haredi religious party Religious Zionism (Tkuma)Defined as a far right ultra nationalist, Jewish supremacist and religious Zionists United Torah Judaism
An alliance of Agudat Yisrael and Degel Ha Torah. Hasidic fundamentalists and and non Hasidic. Otzma YehuditA far right party whose ideology also labelled Kahanist/Anti Arab. (Based upon the views of Rabbis Meir Kahane. I.E. "Arabs living in Israel are enemies of Jews and Israel", that a Jewish Theocratic State should be established where non Jews have no voting rights) NoamA far right religious Zionist Party. Headline policies include anti LGBT Rights . This is the reality of the current government in Israel and drew such mass demonstrations against their attempt to alter the constitution. Tell me, which direction is that heading? In Gaza and southern Lebanon, in Iran, those areas / countries there are totalitarian fascists /theocratic fascists in power. Unlike Israel, the populations have no opportunity to overthrow them by democratic means. Likud and the nutters described above would most likely have been booted if it were not for the disgusting events of October 7th. Funny that. My point is, despite the nature of the loonies in the Israeli government, they had the high ground. Lost now they are acting just like the loonies in the areas I described. The military will never resolve this, unless they kill everyone. Which they cannot. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Oct 25, 2023 21:17:41 GMT
Just for clarity this is what I said. "Of course. But is it one side, or one extremist faction? Even within Israel, is there only "one side"? Before HAMAS gave him an out, Netanyahu was in deep political trouble. Propped up by some of the worse Zionists extremists and trying to change the constitution, there were mass demonstrations and rumours of reservists refusing to obey orders. Any mature leader would embrace that opposition, sold it to rest of the world as to why supporting democracy as represented by that opposition as to opposed to the enforced rule of the lunatics in HAMAS (and Iran) who allow no opposition. But he cannot, because he is caught in the deadly embrace of the Zionists, which is developing as badly as the situation the Palestinians and Iranians find themselves in. They will tolerate no opposition eventually, the divine right of Jews and their chosen god will be the basis for eventual totalitarianism. Just like HAMAS, just like the clowns in Iran. So their solution is more violence, killing probably, by the time this all over, tens of thousands of Palestinians who may or may not support HAMAS acts of terror. This outcome plays right into the hands of the zealots on both sides." I am not blaming the Israelis, I am pointing what, in my opinion, was a missed opportunity to boast of their democracy by highlighting the rights of Israelis to protest and resist an increasingly oppressive government and compare that with the fascist regimes that prevail in GAZA and Iran. This would further isolate those regimes in the court of public opinion. As I said, resorting to revenge (although I get the instinct to do so) plays in to the hands of the lunatics in HAMAS and the Fascist Theocracy in Iran. Let's pray the latter doesn't play out on the Lebanese border. The jibe about me being a Muslim is to pathetic to be taken seriously. Ignore. This line, "They will tolerate no opposition eventually, the divine right of Jews and their chosen god will be the basis for eventual totalitarianism. Just like HAMAS, just like the clowns in Iran." is just nonsense. "This would further isolate those regimes in the court of public opinion." - Just laughable! Do you really thing the Islamic nutjobs give a toss about about the "court of public opinion" ? Are you being serious? Israel are not out for revenge. They are going to attempt to destroy Hamas and all the other fanatical murdering b*****d factions in Gaza. They want to put a stop to the endless violence inflicted upon them once and for all. I fully support Israel's actions. It's about time someone eliminated the cancer that is Islamic extremism. There is no place for it in the civilized world. But it wasn't a jibe about you once being a Muslim? You have spoken about extensively in the past. I did talk about it to counter the ignorance oft exposed by people on here. Yourself included. I have also explained the circumstances around that period of my life (1975). Its boring and I have no intention of doing it again. Its a bit pathetic that you would try to use that to smear me, suggesting I have Islamic sympathies when I have expressed my atheism on forums for decades ( A view held since 6th form). I think it rather exposes your own prejudices, not mine. For the rest of your faux outrage, see my response to Shoveler. |
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Post by rideintothesun on Oct 27, 2023 9:14:39 GMT
Israelis are not Zionist totalitarians. Palestinians are not Hamas Islamofascists. In both cases, some are, and some are not. Many want to live in peace with neighbours. Hamas's rape and murder atrocities are no resistance against occupation, they are part of a jihad to kill the Jews 'from the river to the sea'. Hamas need to be destroyed, for the sake of both Israeli and Palestinian civilian survival. The Israeli government's reduction of Gaza to rubble is criminal, and Israel need to elect a government patiently to destroy Hamas and enfranchise the Palestinian people. It's possible that the two state solution is dead now. A universally enfranchised Israel/Palestine may be a dream, but it's a dream worth dreaming, because what happened on the 7th October, and what is happening now are truly awful. Shoveler Not yet. I said they are in danger of becoming thus. This is the current make up of the coalition government in Israel: Likud Shas Religious Zionism United Torah Judaism Otzma Yehudit Noam ShasA Haredi religious party Religious Zionism (Tkuma)Defined as a far right ultra nationalist, Jewish supremacist and religious Zionists United Torah Judaism
An alliance of Agudat Yisrael and Degel Ha Torah. Hasidic fundamentalists and and non Hasidic. Otzma YehuditA far right party whose ideology also labelled Kahanist/Anti Arab. (Based upon the views of Rabbis Meir Kahane. I.E. "Arabs living in Israel are enemies of Jews and Israel", that a Jewish Theocratic State should be established where non Jews have no voting rights) NoamA far right religious Zionist Party. Headline policies include anti LGBT Rights . This is the reality of the current government in Israel and drew such mass demonstrations against their attempt to alter the constitution. Tell me, which direction is that heading? In Gaza and southern Lebanon, in Iran, those areas / countries there are totalitarian fascists /theocratic fascists in power. Unlike Israel, the populations have no opportunity to overthrow them by democratic means. Likud and the nutters described above would most likely have been booted if it were not for the disgusting events of October 7th. Funny that. My point is, despite the nature of the loonies in the Israeli government, they had the high ground. Lost now they are acting just like the loonies in the areas I described. The military will never resolve this, unless they kill everyone. Which they cannot. The difference is that we can do business with Israel. It has withdrawn from the Sinai, Gaza Strip and large parts of the West Bank. It has also indicated a willingness to withdraw from the Golan Heights, subject to a comprehensive peace agreement. Since 1993, its governments, including the current one, have expressed a desire to resolve the ongoing issue through peace negotiations. In comparison, Hamas is committed to destroying Israel through military means and has repeatedly tried to undermine the peace process by conducting terrorist attacks, both with the oPt, and Israel itself. The IDF can eradicate Hamas and deplete its capabilities to the point where it cannot produce a repeat of October 7. If you want somebody to blame, try blaming the Gazans who voted in a Hamas government in 2007, virtually obliging the international community to impose a siege and making future hostilities inevitable. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,516
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Post by oldie on Oct 27, 2023 10:23:52 GMT
Shoveler Not yet. I said they are in danger of becoming thus. This is the current make up of the coalition government in Israel: Likud Shas Religious Zionism United Torah Judaism Otzma Yehudit Noam ShasA Haredi religious party Religious Zionism (Tkuma)Defined as a far right ultra nationalist, Jewish supremacist and religious Zionists United Torah Judaism
An alliance of Agudat Yisrael and Degel Ha Torah. Hasidic fundamentalists and and non Hasidic. Otzma YehuditA far right party whose ideology also labelled Kahanist/Anti Arab. (Based upon the views of Rabbis Meir Kahane. I.E. "Arabs living in Israel are enemies of Jews and Israel", that a Jewish Theocratic State should be established where non Jews have no voting rights) NoamA far right religious Zionist Party. Headline policies include anti LGBT Rights . This is the reality of the current government in Israel and drew such mass demonstrations against their attempt to alter the constitution. Tell me, which direction is that heading? In Gaza and southern Lebanon, in Iran, those areas / countries there are totalitarian fascists /theocratic fascists in power. Unlike Israel, the populations have no opportunity to overthrow them by democratic means. Likud and the nutters described above would most likely have been booted if it were not for the disgusting events of October 7th. Funny that. My point is, despite the nature of the loonies in the Israeli government, they had the high ground. Lost now they are acting just like the loonies in the areas I described. The military will never resolve this, unless they kill everyone. Which they cannot. The difference is that we can do business with Israel. It has withdrawn from the Sinai, Gaza Strip and large parts of the West Bank. It has also indicated a willingness to withdraw from the Golan Heights, subject to a comprehensive peace agreement. Since 1993, its governments, including the current one, have expressed a desire to resolve the ongoing issue through peace negotiations. In comparison, Hamas is committed to destroying Israel through military means and has repeatedly tried to undermine the peace process by conducting terrorist attacks, both with the oPt, and Israel itself. The IDF can eradicate Hamas and deplete its capabilities to the point where it cannot produce a repeat of October 7. If you want somebody to blame, try blaming the Gazans who voted in a Hamas government in 2007, virtually obliging the international community to impose a siege and making future hostilities inevitable. Disappointed with that response. You are not one who argues gross generalisations (in the main). But this post is full of it and chooses to ignore the realities on the ground. But, more specifically, who is blaming the Israelis? Pointing out the futility of an "eye for an eye" strategy is not blaming them. I am suggesting it resolves nothing, will create another generation of fanatics and with every child killed provide ammunition for that new generation. To say nothing of hovering violent Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon where it is only Iran's self interest wedded to a desire to quell simmering unrest within their own borders, that keeps them at bay. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
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Post by trymer on Oct 27, 2023 18:57:02 GMT
Iranian backed militias have attacked US military bases in Syria and Iraq and wounded US soldiers,the Americans have launched airstrikes against militia bases in Syria,not sure why the Americans have military bases in Iraq or Syria and I wonder how easily they could be evacuated if necessary.
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,543
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Post by trymer on Oct 27, 2023 19:03:42 GMT
Sunak goes to Israel and says that 'we' want Israel to win but the reality is that across Britain hundreds of thousands of people demonstrate in favour of Palestinians and many millions more want Palestine to win, so who is this 'we' ? the present government ? There seems to be a massive disconnection across Europe of countries governments and countries citizens, that cant be good news. Not sure what stance Starmer has taken on the situation,but for sure as eggs are eggs had it been the last Labour leader then the flavour coming from the red side would ( I believe) be somewhat different than that of R Sunak!! Starmer came down heavily in favour of Israel,he seems to have backed away from that stance a bit but I think that if the situation in Gaza gets much worse a split could develop in the Labour party, the Tories seem rock solid in favour of Israel. The general public though ? 70% 'who cares' or 'they're all as bad as each other over there' 20% pro Palestine 10% pro Israel. |
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Post by rideintothesun on Oct 27, 2023 20:44:40 GMT
The difference is that we can do business with Israel. It has withdrawn from the Sinai, Gaza Strip and large parts of the West Bank. It has also indicated a willingness to withdraw from the Golan Heights, subject to a comprehensive peace agreement. Since 1993, its governments, including the current one, have expressed a desire to resolve the ongoing issue through peace negotiations. In comparison, Hamas is committed to destroying Israel through military means and has repeatedly tried to undermine the peace process by conducting terrorist attacks, both with the oPt, and Israel itself. The IDF can eradicate Hamas and deplete its capabilities to the point where it cannot produce a repeat of October 7. If you want somebody to blame, try blaming the Gazans who voted in a Hamas government in 2007, virtually obliging the international community to impose a siege and making future hostilities inevitable. Disappointed with that response. You are not one who argues gross generalisations (in the main). But this post is full of it and chooses to ignore the realities on the ground. But, more specifically, who is blaming the Israelis? Pointing out the futility of an "eye for an eye" strategy is not blaming them. I am suggesting it resolves nothing, will create another generation of fanatics and with every child killed provide ammunition for that new generation. To say nothing of hovering violent Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon where it is only Iran's self interest wedded to a desire to quell simmering unrest within their own borders, that keeps them at bay. Would you deny that Israel has repeatedly adhered to the principle of 'land for peace', while Hamas has done the exact opposite, and has instead consistently reiterated its determination to destroy Israel? The reality on the ground is that Israel has expanded settlements and has imposed restrictions on Palestinian movement. I don't deny the human consequences of the siege or the occupation of the West Bank. Israel was warned by its own leaders that it faced a choice between separation and apartheid. It refused to make a decision, and the country has now drifted towards the latter. You seem to believe that the end of the occupation will mean the end of the Palestinian determination to destroy Israel. It won't. Many Palestinians refuse to even use the word 'Israel', and instead refer to it as the '67 territories'. In the Second Intifada, 'liberated' parts of the West Bank were used to launch terrorist attacks on Israel, which is why the 'security wall' was constructed. In 2004, Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip. Three years later, Gazans elected a Hamas government, whose terrorist attacks on Israel caused numerous wars. Both sides have made mistakes, but for me the Palestinians bear the predominant responsibility for the failure of the peace process. I don't think the peace process was without major flaws, but it did provide an opportunity for improved relations between Israelis and Palestinians. In any case, these debates are now irrelevant, as I think Israel will seek to push Gazans into Egypt, and West Bank Palestinians into Jordan. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Oct 28, 2023 8:14:40 GMT
Disappointed with that response. You are not one who argues gross generalisations (in the main). But this post is full of it and chooses to ignore the realities on the ground. But, more specifically, who is blaming the Israelis? Pointing out the futility of an "eye for an eye" strategy is not blaming them. I am suggesting it resolves nothing, will create another generation of fanatics and with every child killed provide ammunition for that new generation. To say nothing of hovering violent Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon where it is only Iran's self interest wedded to a desire to quell simmering unrest within their own borders, that keeps them at bay. Would you deny that Israel has repeatedly adhered to the principle of 'land for peace', while Hamas has done the exact opposite, and has instead consistently reiterated its determination to destroy Israel? The reality on the ground is that Israel has expanded settlements and has imposed restrictions on Palestinian movement. I don't deny the human consequences of the siege or the occupation of the West Bank. Israel was warned by its own leaders that it faced a choice between separation and apartheid. It refused to make a decision, and the country has now drifted towards the latter. You seem to believe that the end of the occupation will mean the end of the Palestinian determination to destroy Israel. It won't. Many Palestinians refuse to even use the word 'Israel', and instead refer to it as the '67 territories'. In the Second Intifada, 'liberated' parts of the West Bank were used to launch terrorist attacks on Israel, which is why the 'security wall' was constructed. In 2004, Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip. Three years later, Gazans elected a Hamas government, whose terrorist attacks on Israel caused numerous wars. Both sides have made mistakes, but for me the Palestinians bear the predominant responsibility for the failure of the peace process. I don't think the peace process was without major flaws, but it did provide an opportunity for improved relations between Israelis and Palestinians. In any case, these debates are now irrelevant, as I think Israel will seek to push Gazans into Egypt, and West Bank Palestinians into Jordan. On your last point, I agree. That I fear will be Israel's intent. However if they do try that then I have no doubt they will be attacked from Southern Lebanon. Other Arab states will be forced to choose sides and a large regional war will ensue. All very sad. |
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eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Oct 28, 2023 11:57:33 GMT
Would you deny that Israel has repeatedly adhered to the principle of 'land for peace', while Hamas has done the exact opposite, and has instead consistently reiterated its determination to destroy Israel? The reality on the ground is that Israel has expanded settlements and has imposed restrictions on Palestinian movement. I don't deny the human consequences of the siege or the occupation of the West Bank. Israel was warned by its own leaders that it faced a choice between separation and apartheid. It refused to make a decision, and the country has now drifted towards the latter. You seem to believe that the end of the occupation will mean the end of the Palestinian determination to destroy Israel. It won't. Many Palestinians refuse to even use the word 'Israel', and instead refer to it as the '67 territories'. In the Second Intifada, 'liberated' parts of the West Bank were used to launch terrorist attacks on Israel, which is why the 'security wall' was constructed. In 2004, Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip. Three years later, Gazans elected a Hamas government, whose terrorist attacks on Israel caused numerous wars. Both sides have made mistakes, but for me the Palestinians bear the predominant responsibility for the failure of the peace process. I don't think the peace process was without major flaws, but it did provide an opportunity for improved relations between Israelis and Palestinians. In any case, these debates are now irrelevant, as I think Israel will seek to push Gazans into Egypt, and West Bank Palestinians into Jordan. On your last point, I agree. That I fear will be Israel's intent. However if they do try that then I have no doubt they will be attacked from Southern Lebanon. Other Arab states will be forced to choose sides and a large regional war will ensue. All very sad. I would agree with both final points. Interesting thread, glad I dipped back. But ultimately profoundly depressing stuff. Hamas will be destroyed and in the process more innocent people will die. Gaza will be rubble. This will fuel anti-Israeli sentiment. And the cycle of violence continues. Out of interest what have the Saudis said of late? There was a lot of talk about Iran prompting the conflict to prevent Israel becoming closer to Saudia Arabia and some other Middle East nations. If they can be kept out of the picture - could that possibly prevent an escalation? Just trying to think of a positive in this incredibly sad episode. |
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Post by rideintothesun on Oct 28, 2023 12:55:07 GMT
On your last point, I agree. That I fear will be Israel's intent. However if they do try that then I have no doubt they will be attacked from Southern Lebanon. Other Arab states will be forced to choose sides and a large regional war will ensue. All very sad. I would agree with both final points. Interesting thread, glad I dipped back. But ultimately profoundly depressing stuff. Hamas will be destroyed and in the process more innocent people will die. Gaza will be rubble. This will fuel anti-Israeli sentiment. And the cycle of violence continues. Out of interest what have the Saudis said of late? There was a lot of talk about Iran prompting the conflict to prevent Israel becoming closer to Saudia Arabia and some other Middle East nations. If they can be kept out of the picture - could that possibly prevent an escalation? Just trying to think of a positive in this incredibly sad episode. Normalization of relations between Israel and the Saudis has been ongoing for some time, so this wouldn't really make sense unless there was a recent development that you can think of. People also tend to talk about Hamas and Hezbollah as if they take their orders direct from Tehran. I think this is a simplification and that they actually have far more autonomy. The Israelis take the view that it is who they are, not what they do, that matters. They believe that Arabs and Palestinians would hate them regardless of what they do in the Strip, and to be honest they have considerable justification in believing this. Let me give you one example - a German acquaintance who travelled in the Middle East wondered why the border guards so enthusiastically celebrated her German nationality when they saw her passport. Can you guess why? |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,516
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Post by oldie on Oct 29, 2023 9:16:43 GMT
I would agree with both final points. Interesting thread, glad I dipped back. But ultimately profoundly depressing stuff. Hamas will be destroyed and in the process more innocent people will die. Gaza will be rubble. This will fuel anti-Israeli sentiment. And the cycle of violence continues. Out of interest what have the Saudis said of late? There was a lot of talk about Iran prompting the conflict to prevent Israel becoming closer to Saudia Arabia and some other Middle East nations. If they can be kept out of the picture - could that possibly prevent an escalation? Just trying to think of a positive in this incredibly sad episode. Normalization of relations between Israel and the Saudis has been ongoing for some time, so this wouldn't really make sense unless there was a recent development that you can think of. People also tend to talk about Hamas and Hezbollah as if they take their orders direct from Tehran. I think this is a simplification and that they actually have far more autonomy. The Israelis take the view that it is who they are, not what they do, that matters. They believe that Arabs and Palestinians would hate them regardless of what they do in the Strip, and to be honest they have considerable justification in believing this. Let me give you one example - a German acquaintance who travelled in the Middle East wondered why the border guards so enthusiastically celebrated her German nationality when they saw her passport. Can you guess why? I am sorry The speculative innuendo in that statement is just awful, I cannot believe you said that. |
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