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Post by rideintothesun on Oct 17, 2023 21:49:10 GMT
BBC reporting a hospital bombed in Gaza and hundreds killed. Although there have been many wars and invasions over there I dont ever remember them causing as many demonstrations and violence in Europe as this present fighting has,I do wonder if this goes on for long and causes thousands of deaths whether the next Intifada will be on European streets. If by Intifada, you mean violent resistance against a political authority, then this is already happening. We have allowed people like BLM and the usual pro-Palestine mob to openly openly celebrate the murder of Israeli civilians and to incite violent resistance - it is only a matter of time before this spills over onto our streets. We are already seeing the harassment of Jewish communities and the closing of Jewish schools. This isn't the country I grew up in, and its not the country I want to live in. As for the bombing in Gaza. This is Hamas's responsibility - they now have the blood of innocent Palestinians and Israelis on their hands. No doubt the pro-Palestine mob will seek to exploit this recent tragedy for all it is worth. Its interesting - Wael is from a Jordanian family, and half of Jordan's population are actually Palestinian. There's a very good chance that he is actually personally invested in the ongoing escalation. It would be nice to see a statement from him in which he expresses solidarity with the Israeli victims of this grotesque atrocity and the people of the Gaza Strip and rejects the hatred espoused and practiced by Hamas. |
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Post by rideintothesun on Oct 17, 2023 21:55:24 GMT
Israel did forcibly remove it's own people from Gaza and handed it all back to the Palestinians. Hamas just saw that as weakness by the Israelis and that their violence had forced Israel to do this, therefore, more violence will extract more concessions! I refer everyone, once again, to Article 13 in the Hamas Charter:- "Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement: ------------------------------------------- '[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)" I don't think anyone, not any sane person, believes that groups like HAMAS are ones that the Israelis can negotiate with. But we must keep in mind they, these loonies, only came to power in 2007, born of the frustration at the PLO/Fattah achieving little or no progress in resolving the issues faced by Palestinians and the displaced refugees in the region. All the while the Israelis continued to expand their settlements and further displace Palestinians. At the same time enforcing a blockade on GAZA. We have to see this in the round, it was almost inevitable that a desperate people would end up in the embrace of lunatics whilst the world sat back and watched. Those seeking bloody revenge will only end up perpetuating this terrible cycle of "kill and be killed". Do you not think that the residents of the Gaza Strip should take some responsibility for voting for a terrorist organisation, in the full knowledge that it would use their recently 'liberated' territory to continue attacks on Israel? Say what you like, Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip and was rewarded with continued terrorist attacks. Why should it make any further territorial concessions? The Palestinians need to put their house in order instead of continually running to the international community and expecting them to do it for them. I was originally sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, but ran out of patience with them a long time ago. They routinely behave like children - shrieking, crying and blaming everyone but themselves. They were subject to a grotesque historical injustice but have wasted each and every opportunity they have been given, including the Oslo Accords and the proposals put forward at the Camp David summit (which would have given them the Gaza Strip and almost all of the West Bank) As Abba Eban (famous Israeli diplomat) once observed, 'the Palestinians never waste an opportunity to waste an opportunity'. |
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bluetornados
Predictions League
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Post by bluetornados on Oct 17, 2023 22:37:55 GMT
BBC reporting a hospital bombed in Gaza and hundreds killed. Although there have been many wars and invasions over there I dont ever remember them causing as many demonstrations and violence in Europe as this present fighting has,I do wonder if this goes on for long and causes thousands of deaths whether the next Intifada will be on European streets. Hundreds of people are feared dead after a huge explosion at a hospital in Gaza City where Palestinians injured in the Israel-Hamas war were being treated, while others were seeking safety after days of Israeli air strikes. The Hamas-led authorities in Gaza say 500 people died in the explosion at the Al Ahli hospital. Hamas blamed Israel, which in turn blamed Palestinian militants (who too deflected the blame) The BBC spoke with an unnamed doctor who was working at the hospital - which is funded by the Anglican Church - when the explosion occurred, and who said there was total devastation, and that hundreds were killed or injured Hamas said an Israeli air strike on the hospital was to blame, describing it as a “war crime”, while Israel denied its military was involved and said the explosion was caused by rockets fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad Islamic Jihad, the second biggest militant group in the Gaza Strip, has denied responsibility The incident came not long after the UN said a school sheltering thousands of people in central Gaza was also hit, killing at least six people There were also protests in the occupied West Bank city of Ramallah on Tuesday night, with demonstrators opposed to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas clashing with security forces who responded by firing tear gas The dramatic day of developments comes ahead of a visit to the Middle East by US President Joe Biden on Wednesday, which will include a trip to Israel Israel has crossed all red lines - AbbasPalestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is now giving a speech. He begins by calling the blast at the Al Ahli hospital a "hideous war massacre". Israel has "crossed all red lines", he adds. Israel denied its military was involved and said the blast was caused by rockets fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The militants have also denied blame. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,543
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Post by trymer on Oct 18, 2023 18:51:39 GMT
BBC reporting a hospital bombed in Gaza and hundreds killed. Although there have been many wars and invasions over there I dont ever remember them causing as many demonstrations and violence in Europe as this present fighting has,I do wonder if this goes on for long and causes thousands of deaths whether the next Intifada will be on European streets. If by Intifada, you mean violent resistance against a political authority, then this is already happening. We have allowed people like BLM and the usual pro-Palestine mob to openly openly celebrate the murder of Israeli civilians and to incite violent resistance - it is only a matter of time before this spills over onto our streets. We are already seeing the harassment of Jewish communities and the closing of Jewish schools. Yes,as well as problems in UK there have been attacks and incidents in Germany and France,if it goes to full scale war it makes me wonder how bad things could get. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
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Post by trymer on Oct 18, 2023 18:56:07 GMT
BBC reporting a hospital bombed in Gaza and hundreds killed. Although there have been many wars and invasions over there I dont ever remember them causing as many demonstrations and violence in Europe as this present fighting has,I do wonder if this goes on for long and causes thousands of deaths whether the next Intifada will be on European streets. Its interesting - Wael is from a Jordanian family, and half of Jordan's population are actually Palestinian. There's a very good chance that he is actually personally invested in the ongoing escalation. It would be nice to see a statement from him in which he expresses solidarity with the Israeli victims of this grotesque atrocity and the people of the Gaza Strip and rejects the hatred espoused and practiced by Hamas. I think its a bit unreasonable to expect the bloke to make a statement and then tell him what to say,suppose he said 'I dont watch the news and I dont get involved in all that ****,its very sad but its nothing to do with me' ? |
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Nobbygas
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Post by Nobbygas on Oct 19, 2023 7:07:34 GMT
If anyone has been following events around Gaza in the last 10 to 15 years then they will know that many Palestinian missiles 'fall short' or even explode on launching. This is not something new.
All of the evidence now indicates that this indeed did happen with the hospital.
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Oct 19, 2023 9:14:35 GMT
If anyone has been following events around Gaza in the last 10 to 15 years then they will know that many Palestinian missiles 'fall short' or even explode on launching. This is not something new. All of the evidence now indicates that this indeed did happen with the hospital. That may indeed be the case. The fog, the horror of war. Personally I would love the actual cause to be independently verified, like the murder of the journalist which the Israelis denied at first. Anybody see the absolute joke of an interview with the HAMAS "person" C4 last night? After making a half decent point about the West not kicking up the same fuss over Palestinians, females and children, suffering under the Israeli regime, made a complete fool of himself by denying hostages were taken and that his thugs had raped and killed Israelis 10 days ago. Pathetic. |
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Nobbygas
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Post by Nobbygas on Oct 19, 2023 12:59:00 GMT
If anyone has been following events around Gaza in the last 10 to 15 years then they will know that many Palestinian missiles 'fall short' or even explode on launching. This is not something new. All of the evidence now indicates that this indeed did happen with the hospital. That may indeed be the case. The fog, the horror of war. Personally I would love the actual cause to be independently verified, like the murder of the journalist which the Israelis denied at first. Anybody see the absolute joke of an interview with the HAMAS "person" C4 last night? After making a half decent point about the West not kicking up the same fuss over Palestinians, females and children, suffering under the Israeli regime, made a complete fool of himself by denying hostages were taken and that his thugs had raped and killed Israelis 10 days ago. Pathetic. The problem is that 'normal' people have no understanding of FIBUA (fighting in built up areas). It is brutal, de-humanizing, dirty, nasty and much more. It is not fighting where both sides have 'lines'. It is 360 degree warfare. The enemy could be in front, behind, above, below, left or right. There are many instances of Blue-on-Blue (friendly fire) during FIBUA as it is almost impossible to keep track of where your own units are at any point. Anyone with any sense (journalists included) should keep well away. I'm not excusing the death of the journalist but just trying to explain why it probably happened. |
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Post by rideintothesun on Oct 19, 2023 15:42:52 GMT
If anyone has been following events around Gaza in the last 10 to 15 years then they will know that many Palestinian missiles 'fall short' or even explode on launching. This is not something new. All of the evidence now indicates that this indeed did happen with the hospital. That may indeed be the case. The fog, the horror of war. Personally I would love the actual cause to be independently verified, like the murder of the journalist which the Israelis denied at first. Anybody see the absolute joke of an interview with the HAMAS "person" C4 last night? After making a half decent point about the West not kicking up the same fuss over Palestinians, females and children, suffering under the Israeli regime, made a complete fool of himself by denying hostages were taken and that his thugs had raped and killed Israelis 10 days ago. Pathetic. That's not even a half-decent point. Palestinians have received unprecedented support from the international community, and Israel is subject to a greater level of scrutiny and criticism than almost any other state in the international community. The Palestinian political leadership (the PA are the same) lie, lie and lie. You would thought that the international media would learn to stop giving them a platform. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Oct 19, 2023 17:42:08 GMT
That may indeed be the case. The fog, the horror of war. Personally I would love the actual cause to be independently verified, like the murder of the journalist which the Israelis denied at first. Anybody see the absolute joke of an interview with the HAMAS "person" C4 last night? After making a half decent point about the West not kicking up the same fuss over Palestinians, females and children, suffering under the Israeli regime, made a complete fool of himself by denying hostages were taken and that his thugs had raped and killed Israelis 10 days ago. Pathetic. That's not even a half-decent point. Palestinians have received unprecedented support from the international community, and Israel is subject to a greater level of scrutiny and criticism than almost any other state in the international community. The Palestinian political leadership (the PA are the same) lie, lie and lie. You would thought that the international media would learn to stop giving them a platform. Which part is not a "half decent point"? Could you be more specific? |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Oct 19, 2023 17:45:50 GMT
That may indeed be the case. The fog, the horror of war. Personally I would love the actual cause to be independently verified, like the murder of the journalist which the Israelis denied at first. Anybody see the absolute joke of an interview with the HAMAS "person" C4 last night? After making a half decent point about the West not kicking up the same fuss over Palestinians, females and children, suffering under the Israeli regime, made a complete fool of himself by denying hostages were taken and that his thugs had raped and killed Israelis 10 days ago. Pathetic. The problem is that 'normal' people have no understanding of FIBUA (fighting in built up areas). It is brutal, de-humanizing, dirty, nasty and much more. It is not fighting where both sides have 'lines'. It is 360 degree warfare. The enemy could be in front, behind, above, below, left or right. There are many instances of Blue-on-Blue (friendly fire) during FIBUA as it is almost impossible to keep track of where your own units are at any point. Anyone with any sense (journalists included) should keep well away. I'm not excusing the death of the journalist but just trying to explain why it probably happened. I wouldn't know so I bow to your greater knowledge. Certainly not a situation I would like to find myself in. I have not rechecked, but my understanding of the death of that particular journalist was the result of deliberate targeting? |
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Post by rideintothesun on Oct 20, 2023 15:01:13 GMT
That's not even a half-decent point. Palestinians have received unprecedented support from the international community, and Israel is subject to a greater level of scrutiny and criticism than almost any other state in the international community. The Palestinian political leadership (the PA are the same) lie, lie and lie. You would thought that the international media would learn to stop giving them a platform. Which part is not a "half decent point"? Could you be more specific? The idea that Palestinians are poorly served when it comes to international attention and/or sympathy. They get far more support and assistance than virtually any other national group. Compare them to the Armenians, for example. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Oct 20, 2023 15:12:08 GMT
Which part is not a "half decent point"? Could you be more specific? The idea that Palestinians are poorly served when it comes to international attention and/or sympathy. They get far more support and assistance than virtually any other national group. Compare them to the Armenians, for example. The HAMAS lunatic was referring to the attention the West gives to the plight of Palestinian refugees, the forced expulsion of Palestinians when Israelis decide to expand their settlements, and generally being treated as 2nd class citizens. Those are my words not a copy and paste of what he said, but that was what he was talking about. The truth is we have brushed this under the carpet for decades. As a result this was always going to blow up again. |
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Post by rideintothesun on Oct 20, 2023 17:13:55 GMT
The idea that Palestinians are poorly served when it comes to international attention and/or sympathy. They get far more support and assistance than virtually any other national group. Compare them to the Armenians, for example. The HAMAS lunatic was referring to the attention the West gives to the plight of Palestinian refugees, the forced expulsion of Palestinians when Israelis decide to expand their settlements, and generally being treated as 2nd class citizens. Those are my words not a copy and paste of what he said, but that was what he was talking about. The truth is we have brushed this under the carpet for decades. As a result this was always going to blow up again. The plight of Palestinian refugees is widely discussed and acknowledged in the west. Indeed, Palestinians are, in comparison to other refugees, a privileged group with specific rights and entitlements. UNRWA, was for example, established as a specific UN agency after the establishment of Israel. Similarly, the settlements are widely acknowledged, discussed and debated in the west. Israel has also explicitly indicated its willingness to remove settlements as part of a peace agreement. Israelis, Americans and Brits all agree that the expansion of settlements is dangerous and could potentially make the conflict unresolvable. The situation of Palestinians under occupation is also no secret. Again, western observers know far more about Israel's occupation of the West Bank than they do about Morocco's occupation of western Sahara, to take one example. The issue is not 'brushed under the carpet' and is discussed to a far greater than almost any conflict in world affairs. In fact, you could make a strong case that this attention is actually disproportionate. It is actually the situation of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries, including Lebanon and Egypt, that is unacknowledged and insufficiently appreciated by outside observers. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Oct 20, 2023 17:32:40 GMT
The HAMAS lunatic was referring to the attention the West gives to the plight of Palestinian refugees, the forced expulsion of Palestinians when Israelis decide to expand their settlements, and generally being treated as 2nd class citizens. Those are my words not a copy and paste of what he said, but that was what he was talking about. The truth is we have brushed this under the carpet for decades. As a result this was always going to blow up again. The plight of Palestinian refugees is widely discussed and acknowledged in the west. Indeed, Palestinians are, in comparison to other refugees, a privileged group with specific rights and entitlements. UNRWA, was for example, established as a specific UN agency after the establishment of Israel. Similarly, the settlements are widely acknowledged, discussed and debated in the west. Israel has also explicitly indicated its willingness to remove settlements as part of a peace agreement. Israelis, Americans and Brits all agree that the expansion of settlements is dangerous and could potentially make the conflict unresolvable. The situation of Palestinians under occupation is also no secret. Again, western observers know far more about Israel's occupation of the West Bank than they do about Morocco's occupation of western Sahara, to take one example. The issue is not 'brushed under the carpet' and is discussed to a far greater than almost any conflict in world affairs. In fact, you could make a strong case that this attention is actually disproportionate. It is actually the situation of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries, including Lebanon and Egypt, that is unacknowledged and insufficiently appreciated by outside observers. I think you are talking about recognition at government level. What he was referring to was the general recognition (to be more specific) in the media and the story as put to the general population in the West. In any event the situation on the West Bank with the new settlements, the situation in Gaza with a 16 year blockade, may well be known, but if we do nothing about it and allow it to fester then as I said it will blow up. Sadly the general Palestinians have been driven into the embrace of the fanatics, themselves financed by the Wahabbis and their strange bedfellows the extremist Shi'a Muslims. I have no idea how the world gets out of this mess. |
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Post by rideintothesun on Oct 20, 2023 18:39:57 GMT
The plight of Palestinian refugees is widely discussed and acknowledged in the west. Indeed, Palestinians are, in comparison to other refugees, a privileged group with specific rights and entitlements. UNRWA, was for example, established as a specific UN agency after the establishment of Israel. Similarly, the settlements are widely acknowledged, discussed and debated in the west. Israel has also explicitly indicated its willingness to remove settlements as part of a peace agreement. Israelis, Americans and Brits all agree that the expansion of settlements is dangerous and could potentially make the conflict unresolvable. The situation of Palestinians under occupation is also no secret. Again, western observers know far more about Israel's occupation of the West Bank than they do about Morocco's occupation of western Sahara, to take one example. The issue is not 'brushed under the carpet' and is discussed to a far greater than almost any conflict in world affairs. In fact, you could make a strong case that this attention is actually disproportionate. It is actually the situation of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries, including Lebanon and Egypt, that is unacknowledged and insufficiently appreciated by outside observers. I think you are talking about recognition at government level. What he was referring to was the general recognition (to be more specific) in the media and the story as put to the general population in the West. In any event the situation on the West Bank with the new settlements, the situation in Gaza with a 16 year blockade, may well be known, but if we do nothing about it and allow it to fester then as I said it will blow up. Sadly the general Palestinians have been driven into the embrace of the fanatics, themselves financed by the Wahabbis and their strange bedfellows the extremist Shi'a Muslims. I have no idea how the world gets out of this mess. The same applies - most people are aware of the plight of Palestinian refugees and of the fact that our government played an important role in the development of the conflict. Most are aware that the settlements are illegal and that they are an obstacle to peace. Most are aware that under international law, the West Bank and East Jerusalem are considered to be occupied territory. Technically also the Gaza Strip, as Israel maintains control of its borders, air space and sea access. Most people are aware of the injustice that has been done, and continues to be done to the Palestinians. They are considerably more aware of this than the occupation of western Sahara, which many educated observers will not be aware of. They also more aware of this than the terrorist actions of the Palestinians, including the 'Black September' attacks at the 1972 Munich attacks and the innumerable attacks on both western and Israeli civilians. If anything, western observers are far aware of the Palestinian side than the Israeli one. Indeed, Israel more often seeks to exert influence through sub-conscious cues (e.g. cultural ties and affinities) than through the direct statement of its 'case'. For example AIPAC in the US commits considerably more time to behind-the-scenes lobbying than to public engagement. Under international law, Palestinians actually have a very strong case for an independent state. However, they have spent the best part of the past 70 years alienating international opinion, most notably by committing terrorist atrocities (both the PLO and Hamas) and failing to take responsibility for their own internal affairs. Ultimately, they need to take a long, hard look at themselves, because a substantial amount of the responsibility rests with them. I think Israel will eventually take matters into its own hands and expel the Gazans to Egypt and the West Bank Palestinians to Jordan. If this happens, I can't say that I will have much sympathy for them. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
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Post by oldie on Oct 20, 2023 21:08:25 GMT
I think you are talking about recognition at government level. What he was referring to was the general recognition (to be more specific) in the media and the story as put to the general population in the West. In any event the situation on the West Bank with the new settlements, the situation in Gaza with a 16 year blockade, may well be known, but if we do nothing about it and allow it to fester then as I said it will blow up. Sadly the general Palestinians have been driven into the embrace of the fanatics, themselves financed by the Wahabbis and their strange bedfellows the extremist Shi'a Muslims. I have no idea how the world gets out of this mess. The same applies - most people are aware of the plight of Palestinian refugees and of the fact that our government played an important role in the development of the conflict. Most are aware that the settlements are illegal and that they are an obstacle to peace. Most are aware that under international law, the West Bank and East Jerusalem are considered to be occupied territory. Technically also the Gaza Strip, as Israel maintains control of its borders, air space and sea access. Most people are aware of the injustice that has been done, and continues to be done to the Palestinians. They are considerably more aware of this than the occupation of western Sahara, which many educated observers will not be aware of. They also more aware of this than the terrorist actions of the Palestinians, including the 'Black September' attacks at the 1972 Munich attacks and the innumerable attacks on both western and Israeli civilians. If anything, western observers are far aware of the Palestinian side than the Israeli one. Indeed, Israel more often seeks to exert influence through sub-conscious cues (e.g. cultural ties and affinities) than through the direct statement of its 'case'. For example AIPAC in the US commits considerably more time to behind-the-scenes lobbying than to public engagement. Under international law, Palestinians actually have a very strong case for an independent state. However, they have spent the best part of the past 70 years alienating international opinion, most notably by committing terrorist atrocities (both the PLO and Hamas) and failing to take responsibility for their own internal affairs. Ultimately, they need to take a long, hard look at themselves, because a substantial amount of the responsibility rests with them. I think Israel will eventually take matters into its own hands and expel the Gazans to Egypt and the West Bank Palestinians to Jordan. If this happens, I can't say that I will have much sympathy for them. I guess we can agree to disagree on the issues of cause and effect. |
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bluetornados
Predictions League
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Post by bluetornados on Oct 20, 2023 22:41:45 GMT
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harrybuckle
Always look on the bright side
Joined: May 2014
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Post by harrybuckle on Oct 21, 2023 17:35:33 GMT
Things could be worse we could live in gaza and have no house and get bombed daily and get killed.
Think of those poor kids football pales into insignificance in reality when the world is this evil killing kids.
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Post by rideintothesun on Oct 21, 2023 18:00:54 GMT
Things could be worse we could live in gaza and have no house and get bombed daily and get killed. Think of those poor kids football pales into insignificance in reality when the world is this evil killing kids. Is there a particular reason why you fail to mention the Israeli children kidnapped and murdered by Hamas? I would be more than happy to educate you about the facts, which included decapitation and being burnt to death - feel free to contribute to the relevant part of the forum. You aren't that interested in Palestinians. You are more interested in scoring points and showing the rest of us how 'right on' you are. |
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