|
Post by droitwichgas on Dec 29, 2017 22:35:23 GMT
So I have had a very interesting exchange of mails with Steve Hamer in last 24 hours. I thank him for his responsiveness on matters of concern. The headlines are: There is no cap on finance from Dwayne Sports, as reported. There will be no financial Armageddon in March 2018 The training ground will be built as already indicated There is optimism about improving facilities especially as there is a recognised need Dwayne Sports are NOT looking for outside investment from supporters groups, although it has been mentioned and quickly discarded by them Dwayne Sports will invest when there is a business case presented but will continue to run a tight ship Dwayne Sports are bewildered by the amount of interest in their commercial matters - a cultural divide between Jordanian financiers and UK football supporters So there you go. This is consistent with what has been said already. Whatever you think, I suggest that you write to Steve if you feel strongly.
UTG What good will that gain as all he's doing is repeating what he's already said, whether it's the truth or not only time will tell but DS now see football as a business opportunity I sense they've invested in the wrong industry!
|
|
vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Dec 29, 2017 22:40:53 GMT
The arguments over revolution are ridiculous.
This was always about funding for a new Stadium.
There is another model for ownership or in this case funding.
I will say it again.
Dwayne Sports are NOT looking for outside investment, via external parties or supporter groups. This has been made clear and we will have to live with this reality.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 22:54:28 GMT
The arguments over revolution are ridiculous. This was always about funding for a new Stadium. There is another model for ownership or in this case funding. I will say it again. Dwayne Sports are NOT looking for outside investment, via external parties or supporter groups. This has been made clear and we will have to live with this reality. That's not what you said earlier, and Wael did state that there were meetings taking place in London with potential investors, so they aren't totally adverse to the notion. What if Hamer is just sounding you out to see if you have a backbone or if you just shrug your shoulders and wander down the pub when you hit the first hurdle? Maybe try putting together a prospectus that funds a large chunk of the stadium, as long as you can get a proper legal framework for the thing you can put me down for £1000 per year for 5 years, once you have some real money in front of you rather than an idea, I'll bet you suddenly have their ear.
|
|
vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Dec 29, 2017 23:29:32 GMT
BG
I spoke about the success of the Hearts Model. It's a model that works for raising funds.
8,000 members pledging money per month via direct debit. You can do the Maths and I spoke about at least £25 million being raised over 25 years if people could see that it could lead to ownership of a tangible asset. It would be a unique venture, but realistic in terms of pay-back. With the sale of the Mem, they would not have been exposed except the length of the loan.
However, they are not interested. They are a major bank after all and are big boys in finance.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 23:43:29 GMT
BG I spoke about the success of the Hearts Model. It's a model that works for raising funds. 8,000 members pledging money per month via direct debit. You can do the Maths and I spoke about at least £25 million being raised over 25 years if people could see that it could lead to ownership of a tangible asset. It would be a unique venture, but realistic in terms of pay-back. With the sale of the Mem, they would not have been exposed except the length of the loan. However, they are not interested. They are a major bank after all and are big boys in finance. Something doesn't add up here. If this is correct, why was Wael talking about a delegation meeting potential investors in London? You were properly prepared before you started firing off emails and were aware of this? Of course, if they already have an exit strategy (as suggested by Mrs SwissGas) and plan to implement it, there would be little point in discussing future investment.
|
|
|
Post by swissgas on Dec 30, 2017 0:33:57 GMT
BG I spoke about the success of the Hearts Model. It's a model that works for raising funds. 8,000 members pledging money per month via direct debit. You can do the Maths and I spoke about at least £25 million being raised over 25 years if people could see that it could lead to ownership of a tangible asset. It would be a unique venture, but realistic in terms of pay-back. With the sale of the Mem, they would not have been exposed except the length of the loan. However, they are not interested. They are a major bank after all and are big boys in finance. Vaughan, I commend you for taking the initiative in communicating with Steve Hamer. I had spoken to Austin MacPhee the Hearts assistant manager about their experience and have an invitation to speak to their owner and to the Foundation leaders but I don't now think there is any mileage in doing so. Austin was engaged to help out with due diligence for USA investors who were looking at buying a Scottish club a few years ago and he is very clued up on the football business. I disagree with your assertion that AJIB are a major bank because, in my opinion, they are a well respected but fairly small bank capitalised at £280 million which makes about £20 million per year profit most of which is distributed in dividends. Myth creation seems to be widespread these days and I recall a newspaper interview last year with Harry Redknapp who was glowing in his praise of Wael and said "he even owns the hotel I am staying in". It's a nice story but just a little research by any fan who takes an interest in commercial matters would reveal that Wael's father owns a 15.7% stake in the hotel company and in 2015 that stake was worth about £8 million. Very pleasing to know that Steve thinks Dwane Sports will have no issues with extending their loan to a figure in excess of the value of the Mem and that in March 2018 the accounts will show the loan has been rolled over for another year. Not quite so good to be told that the training ground will be constructed using the plans which the amateur rugby club had approved. And bewildering for me to hear that Dwane are not looking for outside investment and " will invest when there is a business case presented". How can this be when we have been told for the last eighteen months that the business case study showed the Mem cannot be sustained in it's present form and we need crowds of 15 000 just to break even ? It's just as well they have optimism about improving facilities because if they had pessimism about improving facilities it may have pushed some fans over the edge. Perhaps Wael will fulfill his commitment to better communications with supporters and provide us with a New Year interview to clarify the statement Steve has given.
|
|
Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,920
|
Post by Peter Parker on Dec 30, 2017 7:29:01 GMT
BG I spoke about the success of the Hearts Model. It's a model that works for raising funds. 8,000 members pledging money per month via direct debit. You can do the Maths and I spoke about at least £25 million being raised over 25 years if people could see that it could lead to ownership of a tangible asset. It would be a unique venture, but realistic in terms of pay-back. With the sale of the Mem, they would not have been exposed except the length of the loan. However, they are not interested. They are a major bank after all and are big boys in finance. Vaughan, I commend you for taking the initiative in communicating with Steve Hamer. I had spoken to Austin MacPhee the Hearts assistant manager about their experience and have an invitation to speak to their owner and to the Foundation leaders but I don't now think there is any mileage in doing so. Austin was engaged to help out with due diligence for USA investors who were looking at buying a Scottish club a few years ago and he is very clued up on the football business. I disagree with your assertion that AJIB are a major bank because, in my opinion, they are a well respected but fairly small bank capitalised at £280 million which makes about £20 million per year profit most of which is distributed in dividends. Myth creation seems to be widespread these days and I recall a newspaper interview last year with Harry Redknapp who was glowing in his praise of Wael and said "he even owns the hotel I am staying in". It's a nice story but just a little research by any fan who takes an interest in commercial matters would reveal that Wael's father owns a 15.7% stake in the hotel company and in 2015 that stake was worth about £8 million. Very pleasing to know that Steve thinks Dwane Sports will have no issues with extending their loan to a figure in excess of the value of the Mem and that in March 2018 the accounts will show the loan has been rolled over for another year. Not quite so good to be told that the training ground will be constructed using the plans which the amateur rugby club had approved. And bewildering for me to hear that Dwane are not looking for outside investment and " will invest when there is a business case presented". How can this be when we have been told for the last eighteen months that the business case study showed the Mem cannot be sustained in it's present form and we need crowds of 15 000 just to break even ? It's just as well they have optimism about improving facilities because if they had pessimism about improving facilities it may have pushed some fans over the edge. Perhaps Wael will fulfill his commitment to better communications with supporters and provide us with a New Year interview to clarify the statement Steve has given. If the training ground is built to the original spec, what is the great problem? At least we will have a base of our own that can again be developed over time if they really are here for the long term
|
|
gas2
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 218
|
Post by gas2 on Dec 30, 2017 7:55:21 GMT
January a big month in the history of our club New players ? We will know for sure about uwe as planning permission runs out training ground ? Oh twentymen said a few weeks ago he hopes to get al wael on radio early January
|
|
|
Post by gasheadpirate on Dec 30, 2017 8:37:26 GMT
BG I spoke about the success of the Hearts Model. It's a model that works for raising funds. 8,000 members pledging money per month via direct debit. You can do the Maths and I spoke about at least £25 million being raised over 25 years if people could see that it could lead to ownership of a tangible asset. It would be a unique venture, but realistic in terms of pay-back. With the sale of the Mem, they would not have been exposed except the length of the loan. However, they are not interested. They are a major bank after all and are big boys in finance. Vaughan, I commend you for taking the initiative in communicating with Steve Hamer. I had spoken to Austin MacPhee the Hearts assistant manager about their experience and have an invitation to speak to their owner and to the Foundation leaders but I don't now think there is any mileage in doing so. Austin was engaged to help out with due diligence for USA investors who were looking at buying a Scottish club a few years ago and he is very clued up on the football business. I disagree with your assertion that AJIB are a major bank because, in my opinion, they are a well respected but fairly small bank capitalised at £280 million which makes about £20 million per year profit most of which is distributed in dividends. Myth creation seems to be widespread these days and I recall a newspaper interview last year with Harry Redknapp who was glowing in his praise of Wael and said "he even owns the hotel I am staying in". It's a nice story but just a little research by any fan who takes an interest in commercial matters would reveal that Wael's father owns a 15.7% stake in the hotel company and in 2015 that stake was worth about £8 million. Very pleasing to know that Steve thinks Dwane Sports will have no issues with extending their loan to a figure in excess of the value of the Mem and that in March 2018 the accounts will show the loan has been rolled over for another year. Not quite so good to be told that the training ground will be constructed using the plans which the amateur rugby club had approved. And bewildering for me to hear that Dwane are not looking for outside investment and " will invest when there is a business case presented". How can this be when we have been told for the last eighteen months that the business case study showed the Mem cannot be sustained in it's present form and we need crowds of 15 000 just to break even ? It's just as well they have optimism about improving facilities because if they had pessimism about improving facilities it may have pushed some fans over the edge. Perhaps Wael will fulfill his commitment to better communications with supporters and provide us with a New Year interview to clarify the statement Steve has given. Vaughan’s message did not state that the training ground would be built to the existing planning conditions, he said it would be built as previously indicated, which Hamer has previously stated would be a phased programme. Neither is ideal but better than what we have had up until now. I am still more concerned about the fact no business case for investment in place and no indication that one is forthcoming when it is plain to see that a new stadium is required as the Mem in its present form, and possibly even rebuilt, is not viable.
|
|
eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,194
|
Post by eppinggas on Dec 30, 2017 9:09:52 GMT
Dwayne Sports will invest when there is a business case presented but will continue to run a tight ship nice one Vaughan the bit in blue is the most interesting bit to me. It suggests that they are still in it for the long term. It will be interesting to see what 'business cases' might be generated. I wonder who is tasked with generating them - Wael and himself mainly? I agree it's the key line. But I would interpret that as "currently as there is no clear business case, there will no investment and we will run a tight ship". I'll try and keep my cynicism to a minimum. Let's wait and see what the January window brings. At best DC will be allowed to re-invest the money we receive from Billy and/or Ellis. The 'business plan' we have been told is to redevelop the Mem (and I presume miraculously Dwane Sports then secure a return on their investment). Ain't going to happen. Fair play to Vaughan for making the effort and eliciting some comment. Fair play to Steve Hamer for responding (though without saying anything). Dwane Sports are playing for time and have been ever since the UWE collapse. I also find amusing: "Dwane Sports are bewildered by the amount of interest in their commercial matters - a cultural divide between Jordanian financiers and UK football supporters". Wow. They discovered we aren't actually mugs.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 9:58:25 GMT
nice one Vaughan the bit in blue is the most interesting bit to me. It suggests that they are still in it for the long term. It will be interesting to see what 'business cases' might be generated. I wonder who is tasked with generating them - Wael and himself mainly? I agree it's the key line. But I would interpret that as "currently as there is no clear business case, there will no investment and we will run a tight ship". I'll try and keep my cynicism to a minimum. Let's wait and see what the January window brings. At best DC will be allowed to re-invest the money we receive from Billy and/or Ellis. The 'business plan' we have been told is to redevelop the Mem (and I presume miraculously Dwane Sports then secure a return on their investment). Ain't going to happen. Fair play to Vaughan for making the effort and eliciting some comment. Fair play to Steve Hamer for responding (though without saying anything). Dwane Sports are playing for time and have been ever since the UWE collapse. I also find amusing: "Dwane Sports are bewildered by the amount of interest in their commercial matters - a cultural divide between Jordanian financiers and UK football supporters". Wow. They discovered we aren't actually mugs. On one hand it's reassuring that things are being operated on a commercial basis. But it does seem obvious their due diligence at the outset was poor, given where they are now on the path of the original business case
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 10:12:53 GMT
The arguments over revolution are ridiculous. This was always about funding for a new Stadium. There is another model for ownership or in this case funding. I will say it again. Dwayne Sports are NOT looking for outside investment, via external parties or supporter groups. This has been made clear and we will have to live with this reality. Vaughan....being a natural sceptic did you really think he was going to say anything else If he said for example that they were reviewing their position it would cause melt down.I think he is just repeating what has been said before in a slightly different format. January will tell us a lot more about their intentions than any reply you got from the chairman
|
|
vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Dec 30, 2017 10:51:36 GMT
A tight ship will mean that there won't be massive signings in January IMO.
We have optimism, recognition ref improvement of ground facilities, but no published plans. That's not to say that they are not being discussed.
On subject of outside investment, I made contact with Brian Cormack of Hearts Foundation. However, if that is a route they deem not appropriate, then you have to respect that decision. Investment is a means to an end and a new Stadium was the end I had in mind. I believed that to be a common goal.
As for bewilderment on scrutiny, I think that there are more of our supporters now who will look at off the field matters. However, they are still outnumbered by the Football/ Social brigade. That's not a dig, just a reality of attitudes and mindset out there.
I have thought about the above in the context of the whole thread. Although I was seriously pissed off with that Wael interview, we should try to act carefully in holding our owners to account. Whether you like him or not, we do have a Chairman who is sensitive to our frustrations and concerns.
As he said in interview, we have a model where the Chairman runs the Club, Dwayne Sports finance it and Wael is the genuine football enthusiast. 3 points in an organisational triangle.
I don't believe the conspiracy theories that they are going to pull the plug. The 2 years have been a massive learning curve for Dwayne Sports and they are adjusting to the realities of football.
Wael will be left with massive reputational damage if this went pear-shape and I believe that his voice and influence is our best hope within the triangle. It is now clear that the FC was purchased for him and him alone.
|
|
Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,920
|
Post by Peter Parker on Dec 30, 2017 10:57:33 GMT
A tight ship will mean that there won't be massive signings in January IMO. We have optimism, recognition ref improvement of ground facilities, but no published plans. That's not to say that they are not being discussed. On subject of outside investment, I made contact with Brian Cormack of Hearts Foundation. However, if that is a route they deem not appropriate, then you have to respect that decision. Investment is a means to an end and a new Stadium was the end I had in mind. I believed that to be a common goal. As for bewilderment on scrutiny, I think that there are more of our supporters now who will look at off the field matters. However, they are still outnumbered by the Football/ Social brigade. That's not a dig, just a reality of attitudes and mindset out there. I have thought about the above in the context of the whole thread. Although I was seriously pissed off with that Wael interview, we should try to act carefully in holding our owners to account. Whether you like him or not, we do have a Chairman who is sensitive to our frustrations and concerns. As he said in interview, we have a model where the Chairman runs the Club, Dwayne Sports finance it and Wael is the genuine football enthusiast. 3 points in an organisational triangle. I don't believe the conspiracy theories that they are going to pull the plug. The 2 years have been a massive learning curve for Dwayne Sports and they are adjusting to the realities of football. Wael will be left with massive reputational damage if this went pear-shape and I believe that his voice and influence is our best hope within the triangle. It is now clear that the FC was purchased for him and him alone. I wouldnt expect big signings in January but who would. Good old Gasincider was moaning we will be scraping the barrell and only getting loans, conveniently forgetting it worked perfectly fine last January with Sweeney and Lumley. A couple of decent loan signings in January would make a massive difference again and allow the work to begin on planning for next season safe in the knowledge we will be a league onw team again
|
|
|
Post by walcotgas on Dec 30, 2017 11:11:50 GMT
I don't suppose any of us really know how committed Wael and his family are towards Rovers; are they having second thoughts about the whole project? Perhaps. What is certain is the size of the undertaking of transforming the club into hopefully one day an established Championship side. Currently Wael is trying to redevelop a decrepit stadium, build a training facility from scratch and re-organise the entire club infrastructure. Look how long it's taken Lansdowne to sort out the Sheeds. This is a long term project that Wael has undertaken and we're going to have to be patient.
|
|
vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Dec 30, 2017 11:29:07 GMT
There are so many things that I would like to ask Dwayne Sports. I am sure that I am not alone.
I am aware that Geoff Twentyman has asked for an interview with Wael in New Year.
It would be beneficial for this to be Q&A with supporters reps probing for detail.
More than happy to participate and I would encourage Swiss Gas (plus wife??) to participate as well.
|
|
kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
|
Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 30, 2017 11:39:58 GMT
Peter Parker - you are right in that some people like to stoke fires and others just happy to take the piss. The AlQs are going nowhere and they will have final say on how their finance is utilised. That's what you have said consistently. No massive step forwards, but no melt-down either. The business case will have to be generated by those running the Club. We MAY have to just trust Dwayne Sports to get on with this evolution malarkey. You say that but what about the many interviews with D.C. where he is very obviously alluding to things not being as they should or could have been plus the recent interview with Twentyman ? even SH was not his usual self and admitted to certain things changing. If you are satisfied with that reply then fair enough and it’s your prerogative to do so but I see a club that is being run with poor funds people not being paid allegedly but I know who I believe. The Al Q’s may well want to be here in the long term but I do not see us progressing while they do and, as we are a 2 team city, we will see the red half pull further away whilst this evolution takes its time and ambles from pillar to post. Any trust I had in the owners is now gone and I think it’s a crappy thing to do not to pay people on time and not to let them know if they will get paid at all. Only NQSS knows who they are, other than the fence people but if we can go on about the reds doing it in 82 then we should be just as angry that we , our club I mean, looks like it’s doing the same I’m sorry, actually i’m not, but I am not confident in the reply you have got. We all know that SH is the families front man in anycase. I actually feel some sympathy for him as what else can he do but to tell us what he’s been told to tell us ? Fair play that you asked but did you really believe that he would suddenly drop his guard and open up to what is really going on ?
|
|
kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
|
Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 30, 2017 11:42:31 GMT
The arguments over revolution are ridiculous. This was always about funding for a new Stadium. There is another model for ownership or in this case funding. I will say it again. Dwayne Sports are NOT looking for outside investment, via external parties or supporter groups. This has been made clear and we will have to live with this reality. Vaughan....being a natural sceptic did you really think he was going to say anything else If he said for example that they were reviewing their position it would cause melt down.I think he is just repeating what has been said before in a slightly different format. January will tell us a lot more about their intentions than any reply you got from the chairman You need to see a doctor quickly. Going sceptic can be fatal 😂
|
|
|
Post by PessimistGas on Dec 30, 2017 12:24:39 GMT
The arguments over revolution are ridiculous. This was always about funding for a new Stadium. There is another model for ownership or in this case funding. I will say it again. Dwayne Sports are NOT looking for outside investment, via external parties or supporter groups. This has been made clear and we will have to live with this reality. Vaughan....being a natural sceptic did you really think he was going to say anything else If he said for example that they were reviewing their position it would cause melt down.I think he is just repeating what has been said before in a slightly different format. January will tell us a lot more about their intentions than any reply you got from the chairman I can only assume a lot more was said that is to remain private. There is nothing new here, it's just a rehash of what he has already said in public.
|
|
|
Post by One F in Dunford on Dec 30, 2017 12:40:36 GMT
Whatever you think about the content, his responsiveness has been greatly appreciated in 2017 and is beyond exemplary. I don't reveal everything that has been said, but happy to share the headlines. Peter Parker will have a wry smile and justified. Can you say why you won’t reveal everything he said? If he was happy to Tell you (and I assume he doesn’t know you), why won’t you share it?
|
|