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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 19:56:02 GMT
but only because football is broken But it's not broken if you are a player or if you are distributing the rights to Premiership football all over the World or if you earn your own income directly or indirectly from those sources. And I bet the fans and owners of Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Burnley or dare I say it (no I won't) don't think football is broken. Unfortunately for Rovers £4.5 million of the equity in the Mem has been used to pay for the previous owners mistakes and, to date, £7.5 million has apparently been used to pay for the current owners mistakes. I would suggest that clubs which have lower attendances than Rovers but achieve more success are owned by people who are prepared to pay for their own mistakes. Just in the interests of fairness, didn't Higgs stick £1m in in equity to cover the losses one year?
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Post by swissgas on Dec 28, 2017 19:59:31 GMT
But it's not broken if you are a player or if you are distributing the rights to Premiership football all over the World or if you earn your own income directly or indirectly from those sources. And I bet the fans and owners of Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Burnley or dare I say it (no I won't) don't think football is broken. Unfortunately for Rovers £7.2 million of the equity in the Mem has been used to pay for the previous owners mistakes and, to date, £4.8 million has apparently been used to pay for the current owners mistakes. I would suggest that clubs which have lower attendances than Rovers but achieve more success are owned by people who are prepared to pay for their own mistakes. Just in the interests of fairness, didn't Higgs stick £1m in in equity to cover the losses one year? Yes I think he did convert loans to equity Bamber and by losing their share value the previous owners did partially pay for their mistakes. But nevertheless £7.2 million did come out of the Mem equity. I edited my post to show the correct figures of £7.2 million previous owners and £4.8 million current owners.
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Post by PessimistGas on Dec 28, 2017 20:00:48 GMT
but only because football is broken But it's not broken if you are a player or if you are distributing the rights to Premiership football all over the World or if you earn your own income directly or indirectly from those sources. And I bet the fans and owners of Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Burnley or dare I say it (no I won't) don't think football is broken. Unfortunately for Rovers £7.2 million of the equity in the Mem has been used to pay for the previous owners mistakes and, to date, £4.8 million has apparently been used to pay for the current owners mistakes. I would suggest that clubs which have lower attendances than Rovers but achieve more success are owned by people who are prepared to pay for their own mistakes. 134 years of mistakes total £7.2m and £4.8m in under 2 years.
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Post by PessimistGas on Dec 28, 2017 20:03:58 GMT
But it's not broken if you are a player or if you are distributing the rights to Premiership football all over the World or if you earn your own income directly or indirectly from those sources. And I bet the fans and owners of Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Burnley or dare I say it (no I won't) don't think football is broken. Unfortunately for Rovers £4.5 million of the equity in the Mem has been used to pay for the previous owners mistakes and, to date, £7.5 million has apparently been used to pay for the current owners mistakes. I would suggest that clubs which have lower attendances than Rovers but achieve more success are owned by people who are prepared to pay for their own mistakes. Just in the interests of fairness, didn't Higgs stick £1m in in equity to cover the losses one year? How much have the current lot put in? That would be zero then.
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Peter Parker
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Post by Peter Parker on Dec 28, 2017 20:11:43 GMT
Just in the interests of fairness, didn't Higgs stick £1m in in equity to cover the losses one year? How much have the current lot put in? That would be zero then. Yet. Not saying they will convert it to equity or not, but it is the same thing lots of other owners have done. Loan first and write off/convert to equity later. Google Vincent Tan. He was loaning and charging interest and wrote it off afte x amount of time. The Al Qadis for some reason though are just expected to pump their money in. Again not saying they will do it. But they havent been given the chance to yet
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 20:32:45 GMT
As was the case with the previous BoD That may be true, But for all of their faults I know the previous BoD were Gasheads with the best interests of the club at heart. I definitely cannot say the same about Hani Al Qadi. Also, the Mem was worth many times the value of the debt. The debt is now approaching the value of the Mem. There is no plan and clearly the appetite for investment has waned. Realistically, is he going to let the debt exeed the value of their only asset? Two years on from the last Bod and the debt would have increased as well. Plus there were huge external debts beyond the control of the then Bod. I would contend the club was less under control then. Plus, I must say, I don't take the misty eyed view of the past.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 20:35:30 GMT
Just in the interests of fairness, didn't Higgs stick £1m in in equity to cover the losses one year? Yes I think he did convert loans to equity Bamber and by losing their share value the previous owners did partially pay for their mistakes. But nevertheless £7.2 million did come out of the Mem equity. I edited my post to show the correct figures of £7.2 million previous owners and £4.8 million current owners. I wasn't trying to excuse the record of Higgs, or his board, just wanted to get the full facts laid out. Sticking the boot in to someone who isn't around to defend themselves is fine, but needs to be done with full disclosure. Would have been nice if he had popped down the cash point to get the money to pay off all of the costs associated with that ridiculous court case as well Whilst we are on the subject of the previous owners, does anybody know if they have actually been paid yet?
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Post by PessimistGas on Dec 28, 2017 20:48:44 GMT
That may be true, But for all of their faults I know the previous BoD were Gasheads with the best interests of the club at heart. I definitely cannot say the same about Hani Al Qadi. Also, the Mem was worth many times the value of the debt. The debt is now approaching the value of the Mem. There is no plan and clearly the appetite for investment has waned. Realistically, is he going to let the debt exeed the value of their only asset? Two years on from the last Bod and the debt would have increased as well. Plus there were huge external debts beyond the control of the then Bod. I would contend the club was less under control then. Plus, I must say, I don't take the misty eyed view of the past. I can assure you I don't take the misty eyed view of past. Just because we were screwed before doesn't mean we aren t just as screwed now. You cant, surely, try to take an objective view of the past 6-12 months and truly believe that everything is fine here? Where, for example, do you envisage the club in 5 years? Or even 1? The UWE debacle was perhaps the biggest let down in our history, where is the proper explanation? Where is the vision? You have seen and heard the interviews given by Hamer and Wael since? It doesn't really matter how s**t or otherwise Higgs was, is this really acceptable?
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Post by laughinggas on Dec 28, 2017 21:05:52 GMT
How many new ground failures have there been and why?
Somewhere near Emersons Green. Stoke Gifford Avonmouth Memorial UWE Eastville ever mentioned? Any where else?
So is UWE greatest let down?
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Post by PessimistGas on Dec 28, 2017 21:10:23 GMT
How much have the current lot put in? That would be zero then. Yet. Not saying they will convert it to equity or not, but it is the same thing lots of other owners have done. Loan first and write off/convert to equity later. Google Vincent Tan. He was loaning and charging interest and wrote it off afte x amount of time. The Al Qadis for some reason though are just expected to pump their money in. Again not saying they will do it. But they havent been given the chance to yet It's possible. You don't believe it, but it is possible. With each new revelation you give them the benefit of the ever increasing doubt and that is fair enough, I don't seek to convince anyone. I admire what Vaughan is trying to do but I have seen the numerous posts on Facebook and Twitter ripping the piss out of him and this thread. Let's put someone down for actually trying to do something. Those that aren't sneering are totally unaware, so we are back where we've always been. Our fan base isn't interested, so nature will take it's course. Lets hope the happy clappers are right.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 21:10:47 GMT
Two years on from the last Bod and the debt would have increased as well. Plus there were huge external debts beyond the control of the then Bod. I would contend the club was less under control then. Plus, I must say, I don't take the misty eyed view of the past. I can assure you I don't take the misty eyed view of past. Just because we were screwed before doesn't mean we aren t just as screwed now. You cant, surely, try to take an objective view of the past 6-12 months and truly believe that everything is fine here? Where, for example, do you envisage the club in 5 years? Or even 1? The UWE debacle was perhaps the biggest let down in our history, where is the proper explanation? Where is the vision? You have seen and heard the interviews given by Hamer and Wael since? It doesn't really matter how s*** or otherwise Higgs was, is this really acceptable? I had hoped the new owners were doing things "properly". But that faith is shaken by recent events, and I don't mean the UWE. Where are we in five years? I think survival would be a job done. I cannot see anything more than that given the current state of affairs. But that would be five years longer than under the previous owners. You see I agree with Vaughan. A fan based ownership model is most likely the way forward. What Vaughan has not prescribed is the vehicle by which we do that.
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Post by PessimistGas on Dec 28, 2017 21:16:10 GMT
I can assure you I don't take the misty eyed view of past. Just because we were screwed before doesn't mean we aren t just as screwed now. You cant, surely, try to take an objective view of the past 6-12 months and truly believe that everything is fine here? Where, for example, do you envisage the club in 5 years? Or even 1? The UWE debacle was perhaps the biggest let down in our history, where is the proper explanation? Where is the vision? You have seen and heard the interviews given by Hamer and Wael since? It doesn't really matter how s*** or otherwise Higgs was, is this really acceptable? I had hoped the new owners were doing things "properly". But that faith is shaken by recent events, and I don't mean the UWE. Where are we in five years? I think survival would be a job done. I cannot see anything more than that given the current state of affairs. But that would be five years longer than under the previous owners. You see I agree with Vaughan. A fan based ownership model is most likely the way forward. What Vaughan has not prescribed is the vehicle by which we do that. Can't disagree with any of that. Good, innit?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 22:02:09 GMT
I can assure you I don't take the misty eyed view of past. Just because we were screwed before doesn't mean we aren t just as screwed now. You cant, surely, try to take an objective view of the past 6-12 months and truly believe that everything is fine here? Where, for example, do you envisage the club in 5 years? Or even 1? The UWE debacle was perhaps the biggest let down in our history, where is the proper explanation? Where is the vision? You have seen and heard the interviews given by Hamer and Wael since? It doesn't really matter how s*** or otherwise Higgs was, is this really acceptable? I had hoped the new owners were doing things "properly". But that faith is shaken by recent events, and I don't mean the UWE. Where are we in five years? I think survival would be a job done. I cannot see anything more than that given the current state of affairs. But that would be five years longer than under the previous owners. You see I agree with Vaughan. A fan based ownership model is most likely the way forward. What Vaughan has not prescribed is the vehicle by which we do that. Or who does the work to get it set up. It ain't gonna do itself and this isn't something to be sorted in the back room of a pub with a belly full of beer.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 22:45:58 GMT
I had hoped the new owners were doing things "properly". But that faith is shaken by recent events, and I don't mean the UWE. Where are we in five years? I think survival would be a job done. I cannot see anything more than that given the current state of affairs. But that would be five years longer than under the previous owners. You see I agree with Vaughan. A fan based ownership model is most likely the way forward. What Vaughan has not prescribed is the vehicle by which we do that. Or who does the work to get it set up. It ain't gonna do itself and this isn't something to be sorted in the back room of a pub with a belly full of beer. Mate, my experience suggests the work is relatively straightforward. It's "consensus" that has been the stumbling block
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Post by swissgas on Dec 28, 2017 23:04:21 GMT
Yet. Not saying they will convert it to equity or not, but it is the same thing lots of other owners have done. Loan first and write off/convert to equity later. Google Vincent Tan. He was loaning and charging interest and wrote it off afte x amount of time. The Al Qadis for some reason though are just expected to pump their money in. Again not saying they will do it. But they havent been given the chance to yet It's possible. You don't believe it, but it is possible. With each new revelation you give them the benefit of the ever increasing doubt and that is fair enough, I don't seek to convince anyone. I admire what Vaughan is trying to do but I have seen the numerous posts on Facebook and Twitter ripping the piss out of him and this thread. Let's put someone down for actually trying to do something. Those that aren't sneering are totally unaware, so we are back where we've always been. Our fan base isn't interested, so nature will take it's course. Lets hope the happy clappers are right. I'm not on Facebook or Twitter so I don't know the type of people who are ripping the piss out of this thread. But below is a list of the current directors of the Foundation of Hearts FC Do Rovers have reasonable numbers of supporters with this level of qualification and experience ? I realize the question of whether they would be prepared to get involved is a leading one but, as a first step, it would be interesting to find out if forumers think there are a sufficient number of Rovers fans with a business and professional background who could be approached with the idea. DIRECTORS ALASTAIR BRUCE Alastair has been a member of the Foundation of Hearts team from an early stage. His professional career has included working in the private, public and voluntary sectors before joining Edinburgh-based Shaw Marketing and Design, of which he is managing director. DONALD CUMMING Donald is a partner in the London-based law firm CMS Cameron McKenna. He joined the Scottish law firm Dundas & Wilson in 1974 and has spent all his career in Edinburgh with that firm, becoming a partner in CMS Cameron McKenna earlier this year when the two firms joined forces. Donald specialises in commercial and corporate work, and was part of the legal team which acted for the Foundation in the deal with Ann Budge’s Bidco to enable the Foundation to become majority shareholder in Hearts. GARRY HALLIDAY One of the founding directors of the Foundation of Hearts, Garry, a former bricklayer, is now a contracts manager. A third-generation, dyed in the wool Hearts fan, Garry has throughout the whole FoH journey given opinion, input and ideas. BARRY MCGONAGLE Barry is a qualified chartered accountant by profession. After graduating in economics from Edinburgh University in 2007, he has worked both in professional practice and in industry, and he is currently a financial reporting analyst with one of Scotland's most successful technology businesses. LOUISE STRUTT Louise is a qualified Chartered Taxation Adviser, Chartered Financial Planner, and Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Insurance by profession. She worked in professional practice in the financial services sector for many years before establishing her own bespoke tax, accountancy and financial planning practice in 2006.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 23:12:04 GMT
Or who does the work to get it set up. It ain't gonna do itself and this isn't something to be sorted in the back room of a pub with a belly full of beer. Mate, my experience suggests the work is relatively straightforward. It's "consensus" that has been the stumbling block Can't disagree, once you know what you are trying to achieve, you can just crack on and make it happen, but time is a precious commodity. I have no idea what's going on via PM or direct contact, maybe Vaughan has a team in place already with the time and knowledge to get something whipped into shape to present to the owners, but I have to say, I would imagine that the tone of his opening post on this thread pretty much excludes him from any such negotiations, I'll save you scrolling up, this is what he said, And there's the problem, in every generation of supporters you will only get a certain number of the caliber needed, who also have the time and motivation to make something like this work.
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Post by vaughan on Dec 29, 2017 0:56:19 GMT
I don't know why people are taking the piss. But ho-hum.
I have asked the questions of the Chairman about whether they wish or even need to engage outside funding via supporters groups.
The Hearts Model is straightforward enough and has been proved elsewhere to be successful. What you need is the stimulus to invest across the entire fan-base. Some are saying it can't be done - their entitlement.
No-one can second-guess Dwayne Sports as we are unclear of their plans. It's like a game of poker where the room has been plunged into darkness through a power-cut.
Ultimately there needs to be a Stadium plan to fund in the first place.
The forum is about discussion about all options.
As I have said before, it's now or never.
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Post by Peter Parker on Dec 29, 2017 6:22:36 GMT
Yet. Not saying they will convert it to equity or not, but it is the same thing lots of other owners have done. Loan first and write off/convert to equity later. Google Vincent Tan. He was loaning and charging interest and wrote it off afte x amount of time. The Al Qadis for some reason though are just expected to pump their money in. Again not saying they will do it. But they havent been given the chance to yet It's possible. You don't believe it, but it is possible. With each new revelation you give them the benefit of the ever increasing doubt and that is fair enough, I don't seek to convince anyone. I admire what Vaughan is trying to do but I have seen the numerous posts on Facebook and Twitter ripping the piss out of him and this thread. Let's put someone down for actually trying to do something. Those that aren't sneering are totally unaware, so we are back where we've always been. Our fan base isn't interested, so nature will take it's course. Lets hope the happy clappers are right. Is there a latest revelation or have I missed something? "our fan base is totally unaware" On the face of it, from anyone looking from the outside they havent really done anything wrong apart from miscalculate/or been too eager early on in there statements Again as I keep saying, if something is seriously untoward it needs to become public, but it hasnt. Just whispers and nodding between certain people on the internet, interspersed with some utter bollox being passed on if Vaughn could seriously get something running, good luck to him. not saying it was aimed at me, but would never knock anyone for trying to do something, however i do think he would have a hard time selling it to fans who dont know what the Al Qadis have supposesly done so wrong
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 9:10:47 GMT
I don't know why people are taking the piss. But ho-hum. Because they think it will come to nothing and anyone serious would be getting on with it, not talking about it on a forum that virtually nobody reads. Can't wait for you to prove them all wrong. As I said, I'll support it financially once it's up and running.
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 29, 2017 11:19:21 GMT
I may be the only one who doesn't know the answer to this, but can someone tell me how clubs with half, or less, of the gate that Rovers regularly get can survive. It's been stated in this thread that we lose a million a year, so how much is lost by clubs with 4,000 gates? Great question. Does anyone know which Div 3 or Div 4 Clubs break-even or run at a profit? Are there really 48 Clubs that lose money year on year and are funded by benevolent owners? If this is the case -then as someone else mentioned - football is totally broken. If we can't break-even on crowds of 9,000 then something is fundamentally wrong and has to change. Average players earning £100k+ (and in some instances a lot more) in the lower divisions is the problem. My solution. Balance the books. Pay players what you can afford to. If that means plummeting down the football pyramid - then so be it. At least that would be a sustainable model. And we still get to see Bristol Rovers FC play in blue & white quarters. It's never been about "success" has it? Glory hunters and plastic Sky TV fans have the Premiers**t "global brands" for "success". Maybe other Clubs would do the same... and in 10 years time we'll be back to finishing mid-table in Div 3, our historical resting place. Kind of like starting a phoenix Club from an existing one. Might take a while to pay off the £12mil though. But that's not a problem as the Al-Qadi's are "here for the long run" and of course - as per Wael's favourite phrase: "these things take time".
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