Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 11:44:49 GMT
I may be the only one who doesn't know the answer to this, but can someone tell me how clubs with half, or less, of the gate that Rovers regularly get can survive. It's been stated in this thread that we lose a million a year, so how much is lost by clubs with 4,000 gates? Great question. Does anyone know which Div 3 or Div 4 Clubs break-even or run at a profit? Are there really 48 Clubs that lose money year on year and are funded by benevolent owners? If this is the case -then as someone else mentioned - football is totally broken. If we can't break-even on crowds of 9,000 then something is fundamentally wrong and has to change. Average players earning £100k+ (and in some instances a lot more) in the lower divisions is the problem. My solution. Balance the books. Pay players what you can afford to. If that means plummeting down the football pyramid - then so be it. At least that would be a sustainable model. And we still get to see Bristol Rovers FC play in blue & white quarters. It's never been about "success" has it? Glory hunters and plastic Sky TV fans have the Premiers*** "global brands" for "success". Maybe other Clubs would do the same... and in 10 years time we'll be back to finishing mid-table in Div 3, our historical resting place. Kind of like starting a phoenix Club from an existing one. Might take a while to pay off the £12mil though. But that's not a problem as the Al-Qadi's are "here for the long run" and of course - as per Wael's favourite phrase: "these things take time". Things don't always need a lot of time. You can blow our best chance ever of getting a new stadium out of the water and refuse to tell us why in not much more than a year, and lose millions whilst doing it.
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Post by fanatical on Dec 29, 2017 15:09:31 GMT
Is this actually for real? I was there for the last game at Eastville and trust me, I never want to go back to renting a stadium for as long as I breathe. If the lease is long enough it's as good a freehold. Certainly don't see the issue with a 125 years lease with a peppercorn rent. I think the issue with Eastville not just that we sold the ground but allowed to be sold with a 25 year lease with extortionate rent rises. Let's hope Hani doesn't want his money back any time soon or we won't have a choice in the matter. not as simple as that -peppercorn rent - what about the income from bars, food, etc - surely the add on's were the reason for UWE failing?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 15:15:26 GMT
If the lease is long enough it's as good a freehold. Certainly don't see the issue with a 125 years lease with a peppercorn rent. I think the issue with Eastville not just that we sold the ground but allowed to be sold with a 25 year lease with extortionate rent rises. Let's hope Hani doesn't want his money back any time soon or we won't have a choice in the matter. not as simple as that -peppercorn rent - what about the income from bars, food, etc - surely the add on's were the reason for UWE failing? Without some detail we don't know if the UWE plan failed or if the owners' expectations were just unrealistic.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 17:35:09 GMT
not as simple as that -peppercorn rent - what about the income from bars, food, etc - surely the add on's were the reason for UWE failing? Without some detail we don't know if the UWE plan failed or if the owners' expectations were just unrealistic. Or the return on investment did not add up?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 18:05:48 GMT
Without some detail we don't know if the UWE plan failed or if the owners' expectations were just unrealistic. Or the return on investment did not add up? I think that's what I said? It's what return you expect to get out of a complex like that after it funds an ambitious football club that's the missing bit of the equation. Wael said that the manager's ambition matched that of the owners, well, he's a bloody good manager, but he's also pretty pleased with himself as far as his ability as a manager goes, so I would imagine that he thinks he can manage at the Championship and maybe even beyond and wouldn't be shy about saying so. That raises the question, just how much revenue did Wael, Hani and their Father think they were going to be able to generate from the UWE complex, and if it was that simple, why was Higgs chucking the keys at them like a hot potato?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 18:22:39 GMT
Or the return on investment did not add up? I think that's what I said? It's what return you expect to get out of a complex like that after it funds an ambitious football club that's the missing bit of the equation. Wael said that the manager's ambition matched that of the owners, well, he's a bloody good manager, but he's also pretty pleased with himself as far as his ability as a manager goes, so I would imagine that he thinks he can manage at the Championship and maybe even beyond and wouldn't be shy about saying so. That raises the question, just how much revenue did Wael, Hani and their Father think they were going to be able to generate from the UWE complex, and if it was that simple, why was Higgs chucking the keys at them like a hot potato? On the last point I believe that the previous board did not have the working capital to bridge the cash flow losses between agreeing the new build and actually benefiting from it. In addition I also believe that they did not have the cash to fund the capital requirement for the new build. Add to that I also believe they mortgaged future revenues to supplement the capital they did have. These are my thoughts and they may or may not be true. Work it out.
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vaughan
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Post by vaughan on Dec 29, 2017 19:08:31 GMT
So I have had a very interesting exchange of mails with Steve Hamer in last 24 hours. I thank him for his responsiveness on matters of concern.
The headlines are:
There is no cap on finance from Dwayne Sports, as reported.
There will be no financial Armageddon in March 2018
The training ground will be built as already indicated
There is optimism about improving facilities especially as there is a recognised need
Dwayne Sports are NOT looking for outside investment from supporters groups, although it has been mentioned and quickly discarded by them
Dwayne Sports will invest when there is a business case presented but will continue to run a tight ship
Dwayne Sports are bewildered by the amount of interest in their commercial matters - a cultural divide between Jordanian financiers and UK football supporters
So there you go. This is consistent with what has been said already.
Whatever you think, I suggest that you write to Steve if you feel strongly.
UTG
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Post by a more piratey game on Dec 29, 2017 19:20:09 GMT
So I have had a very interesting exchange of mails with Steve Hamer in last 24 hours. I thank him for his responsiveness on matters of concern. The headlines are: There is no cap on finance from Dwayne Sports, as reported. There will be no financial Armageddon in March 2018 The training ground will be built as already indicated There is optimism about improving facilities especially as there is a recognised need Dwayne Sports are NOT looking for outside investment from supporters groups, although it has been mentioned and quickly discarded by them Dwayne Sports will invest when there is a business case presented but will continue to run a tight shipDwayne Sports are bewildered by the amount of interest in their commercial matters - a cultural divide between Jordanian financiers and UK football supporters So there you go. This is consistent with what has been said already. Whatever you think, I suggest that you write to Steve if you feel strongly. UTG nice one Vaughan the bit in blue is the most interesting bit to me. It suggests that they are still in it for the long term. It will be interesting to see what 'business cases' might be generated. I wonder who is tasked with generating them - Wael and himself mainly?
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Post by a more piratey game on Dec 29, 2017 19:20:42 GMT
PS also very good that he has taken the time and trouble to respond IMO
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vaughan
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Post by vaughan on Dec 29, 2017 19:25:57 GMT
Whatever you think about the content, his responsiveness has been greatly appreciated in 2017 and is beyond exemplary.
I don't reveal everything that has been said, but happy to share the headlines.
Peter Parker will have a wry smile and justified.
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Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
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Post by Peter Parker on Dec 29, 2017 19:49:36 GMT
Whatever you think about the content, his responsiveness has been greatly appreciated in 2017 and is beyond exemplary. I don't reveal everything that has been said, but happy to share the headlines. Peter Parker will have a wry smile and justified. no wry smiles from me Vaughn. The only thing that bothers me is the constant whispers, some obvious BS and the difficulty in squaring the circle that Dwane/BRFC wont/cant pay people whilst simultaneously spending money I dont sit here pretending they are perfect. They certainly could communicate better to ease some fears for sure and the quiet approach only fuels rumours There has clearly been a business re-evaluation, but we are yet to see that play out over a period of time yet. Questions should always be asked, we should always debate the running of the club But for all the rumours and the like, there is no tangible evidence of Dwane running BRFC into the ground to the ordinary fan on the terrace, unless we count a below average season on the pitch as evidence
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 29, 2017 19:57:17 GMT
Could be a TARDIS, for all you know, step inside and a magical world could await you. There could be a huge version of Eastville park lake, filled with little fishes, or moss, or bread crumbs, or orange sauce, or whatever it is that you ducks like. @bambergascroin. I thought at least you would know it’s the TADIS, without the Bristolian R lol
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 20:03:29 GMT
Could be a TARDIS, for all you know, step inside and a magical world could await you. There could be a huge version of Eastville park lake, filled with little fishes, or moss, or bread crumbs, or orange sauce, or whatever it is that you ducks like. @bambergascroin. I thought at least you would know it’s the TADIS, without the Bristolian R lol This is more interesting than a revolution that's put down with 2 emails. Time And Relative Dimension In Space, isn't it? Not sure what a time machine is called in Gdańsk though?
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 29, 2017 20:17:40 GMT
I'm just a simple soul and try to keep my thoughts to the basics. Everyone in the world is aware that football clubs are not a sound financial investment. Wael's family, as bankers, would have been very much aware of this when they took on their ownership of Rovers. They must have been surprised by the success of the club since their purchase. One of the best young managers in League football, trawled the lower reaches of football and built a side which played well above anyone's expectations. So the rules have changed, for the club's financial outgoings will be well beyond what they would have predicted. The more successful, the more expensive the project becomes! Their cosy little project where all of their outgoings were covered by the value of the club's assets has changed into a greedy cash gobbler. They are probably going through the process of determining whether they wish to continue with the project or should they abandon it before the rising debt passes the point at which the assets are no longer covering the equation. That's if they haven't already done so. A model of how expensive the project becomes is exemplified by the £130 million or so invested not too far away!! I habe said that since we got promoted last time. I think it all happened way too quickly for them, not that it’s any real excuse but I’m sure this has played a big part in this
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 29, 2017 20:28:40 GMT
How many new ground failures have there been and why? Somewhere near Emersons Green. Stoke Gifford Avonmouth Memorial UWE Eastville ever mentioned? Any where else? So is UWE greatest let down? Mangotsfield
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 29, 2017 20:43:10 GMT
@bambergascroin. I thought at least you would know it’s the TADIS, without the Bristolian R lol This is more interesting than a revolution that's put down with 2 emails. Time And Relative Dimension In Space, isn't it? Not sure what a time machine is called in Gdańsk though? Oh crap ! i am going to habe to say sorry to quite a few now. I thought it was TADIS as Bristolians call the Daleks the darleks lol
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vaughan
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Post by vaughan on Dec 29, 2017 20:55:44 GMT
Peter Parker - you are right in that some people like to stoke fires and others just happy to take the piss.
The AlQs are going nowhere and they will have final say on how their finance is utilised. That's what you have said consistently.
No massive step forwards, but no melt-down either.
The business case will have to be generated by those running the Club.
We MAY have to just trust Dwayne Sports to get on with this evolution malarkey.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 21:13:15 GMT
Peter Parker - you are right in that some people like to stoke fires and others just happy to take the piss.The AlQs are going nowhere and they will have final say on how their finance is utilised. That's what you have said consistently. No massive step forwards, but no melt-down either. The business case will have to be generated by those running the Club. We MAY have to just trust Dwayne Sports to get on with this evolution malarkey. Can I ask Vaughan, did you present a prospectus to Hamer, with the names and qualifications of your team, the amount you hoped to raise, over what period, the vehicle by which you intended to raise the funds, how income would be guaranteed, what would be expected in return for the income? There are probably a dozen other salient questions / points. The reason I ask is that you've said that Hamer has replied that they don't want supporter investment, that's a bit confusing as it doesn't discount altogether other outside investment, so what I'm wrestling with is this, why would other investment be considered but what you are proposing not be?
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Post by gasheadpirate on Dec 29, 2017 21:20:17 GMT
So I have had a very interesting exchange of mails with Steve Hamer in last 24 hours. I thank him for his responsiveness on matters of concern. The headlines are: There is no cap on finance from Dwayne Sports, as reported. There will be no financial Armageddon in March 2018 The training ground will be built as already indicated There is optimism about improving facilities especially as there is a recognised need Dwayne Sports are NOT looking for outside investment from supporters groups, although it has been mentioned and quickly discarded by them Dwayne Sports will invest when there is a business case presented but will continue to run a tight ship Dwayne Sports are bewildered by the amount of interest in their commercial matters - a cultural divide between Jordanian financiers and UK football supporters So there you go. This is consistent with what has been said already. Whatever you think, I suggest that you write to Steve if you feel strongly. UTG So have they asked for a business case to be provided? The quote above is non committal on this. If not, then when? Are we to be in limbo for months or years?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 22:10:46 GMT
Does all this mean the revolution is cancelled? or postponed? Its just that i bought some plastic pigs to throw on the pitch at a designated time and i dont know what to do with them now.
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