Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 16:52:07 GMT
I think that Harrison is in some ways a victim of expectations. Anyone who was at the first few games he played would have been awestruck by his potentially especially because (unless you were closely following the fortunes of the youth teams) Ward appeared to introduce him from absolutely nowhere and he had a spectacular impact. The trouble is people see performances like that and expect players to maintain them in every game and it's unrealistic especially in a 19 year old who was still very much learning to be a professional. Players don't arrive fully formed. The trouble is that he has failed to replicate that and so there has been a lot of pressure on him - some of it I would imagine self-inflicted. Players are sometimes talked about as if they are automatons but if I was 19 amd suddenly had the world at my feet and then started struggling a bit with fans getting on my back I think I'd find that pretty hard to take. Ellis went into a struggling side and there was a lot of expectation on him to be a difference maker at a very young age. I'm not surprised he found it tough on and off the field - it's a hard thing to put on a player. Then last year he put together a good run and everyone went 'he's cracked it'. But the bar keeps being raised on him. I also entirely agree with the person who posted the difference between how the performancews of 'flair' players and other players are interpreted. It's about player type and position. If you are a workmanlike centre midfield player what you do every game doesn't change very much. Your ability to perform and influence the game is largely based on your own efforts urgo players in that position are nearly always lauded for their workrate and consistancy - same goes for centre backs and defenders generally. Wingers and skilled attackers on the other hand rely a lot more on what happens on the day for how effective they can be - who they're matched up against, how other players in the team perform, how our side is set up etc. As a result they are often labelled inconsistent and criticised for workrate/attitude etc. This is a constant theme throughout football history. It's largely rubbish though. I ultimately agree that the 1 thing that really hold Ellis back is that his back to goal player remains fairly poor which makes it a lot harder for him to create his own opportunities -although I felt he had improved quite a bit in that area last season.
As you imply he definitely needs some game time away from the expectations at the Mem to improve in his own time and learn the game more, so I agree with you that the loan is therefore a good idea.
I don't think he's said that at all?
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Post by glastogas on Jan 23, 2016 17:33:01 GMT
Subbed off after 35mons today.. Injury??
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Post by lostinspace on Jan 23, 2016 17:38:15 GMT
Subbed off after 35mons today.. Injury?? yup also hit the post early on and had one attempt blocked
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,068
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Post by Angas on Jan 23, 2016 22:42:04 GMT
A post on H'pools forum says he's on crutches. Might be out for 2 to 3 weeks.
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JeffNZ
Administrator
Jimmy Morgan
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,468
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Post by JeffNZ on Jan 23, 2016 23:12:37 GMT
A post on H'pools forum says he's on crutches. Might be out for 2 to 3 weeks. If that's right then you have to feel for him as that's the end of his loan period without a chance to prove anything.
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,068
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Post by Angas on Jan 25, 2016 19:04:23 GMT
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Post by interceptor on Jan 25, 2016 20:38:12 GMT
I wonder whether they can do scans in Hartlepool ?
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Post by laughinggas on Jan 25, 2016 21:04:23 GMT
I wonder whether they can do scans in Hartlepool ? Think it's normal for the parent club to want to assess injuries.
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Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,549
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Post by Bridgeman on Jan 26, 2016 0:06:32 GMT
That's good news if it's not serious
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,287
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Post by Rex on Jan 26, 2016 6:34:55 GMT
Tom Lockyer clearly believes he is not as good as he could be (yet). He and DC agree on this.
Ellis and Tom share digs together.
Guess which one prefers partying til the early hours and which one has early nights and visits his parents in Wales regularly?
Tom is a sensible lad and seems to be going about things in the right manner and looking after himself. Ellis on the other hand seems to be letting any ability go to waste.
I think Marcus Stewart is the best Rovers player I have ever seen. He wasn't renowned for early nights and sensible behaviour.
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Captain Jayho
Andy Tillson
Straight outta burrington...
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 472
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Post by Captain Jayho on Jan 26, 2016 9:33:35 GMT
Ellis and Tom share digs together.
Guess which one prefers partying til the early hours and which one has early nights and visits his parents in Wales regularly?
Tom is a sensible lad and seems to be going about things in the right manner and looking after himself. Ellis on the other hand seems to be letting any ability go to waste.
I think Marcus Stewart is the best Rovers player I have ever seen. He wasn't renowned for early nights and sensible behaviour. No, but Marcus Stewart was a great player with talent to burn so he got away with it. Ellis seems a decent player in the conference and L2 but lets be honest, Marcus Stewart he ain't.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 12:21:11 GMT
I think Marcus Stewart is the best Rovers player I have ever seen. He wasn't renowned for early nights and sensible behaviour. No, but Marcus Stewart was a great player with talent to burn so he got away with it. Ellis seems a decent player in the conference and L2 but lets be honest, Marcus Stewart he ain't. So because he isn't as good as Marcus Stewart he isn't allowed a social life? Seems reasonable
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Jan 26, 2016 12:24:06 GMT
No, but Marcus Stewart was a great player with talent to burn so he got away with it. Ellis seems a decent player in the conference and L2 but lets be honest, Marcus Stewart he ain't. So because he isn't as good as Marcus Stewart he isn't allowed a social life? Seems reasonable
Of course he is, he's a free man, but it's effect on the pitch may restrict how far his career can go. That's just life.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 12:35:48 GMT
But we've got no evidence at all that his lifestyle is affecting his performance in any way, apart from some scurrilous internet rumours which may or may not have any actual basis in reality.
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Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,920
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Post by Peter Parker on Jan 26, 2016 12:42:06 GMT
I thought he watched City in his spare time anyway.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Jan 26, 2016 12:49:33 GMT
But we've got no evidence at all that his lifestyle is affecting his performance in any way, apart from some scurrilous internet rumours which may or may not have any actual basis in reality.
Correct. But that wasn't Rex's argument. Rex's argument was that how you treat your body out of hours doesn't matter, because Marcus Stewart was able to have a good career despite the way he treated his body.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 12:53:24 GMT
But we've got no evidence at all that his lifestyle is affecting his performance in any way, apart from some scurrilous internet rumours which may or may not have any actual basis in reality.
Correct. But that wasn't Rex's argument. Rex's argument was that how you treat your body out of hours doesn't matter, because Marcus Stewart was able to have a good career despite the way he treated his body.
Er, no it wasn't. It was that Marcus was allowed a social life because he was good, and that Ellis should also be allowed a social life even though he isn't as good as Marcus was.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Jan 26, 2016 13:06:28 GMT
Correct. But that wasn't Rex's argument. Rex's argument was that how you treat your body out of hours doesn't matter, because Marcus Stewart was able to have a good career despite the way he treated his body.
Er, no it wasn't. It was that Marcus was allowed a social life because he was good, and that Ellis should also be allowed a social life even though he isn't as good as Marcus was. Er, no it wasn't.
"I think Marcus Stewart is the best Rovers player I have ever seen. He wasn't renowned for early nights and sensible behaviour."
Linking 'best player' - i.e. performance - with what they do off the pitch.
I don't think anyone is against Ellis staying out late for moral reasons, just performance reasons.
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irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
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Post by irishrover on Jan 26, 2016 13:06:42 GMT
I think that Harrison is in some ways a victim of expectations. Anyone who was at the first few games he played would have been awestruck by his potentially especially because (unless you were closely following the fortunes of the youth teams) Ward appeared to introduce him from absolutely nowhere and he had a spectacular impact. The trouble is people see performances like that and expect players to maintain them in every game and it's unrealistic especially in a 19 year old who was still very much learning to be a professional. Players don't arrive fully formed. The trouble is that he has failed to replicate that and so there has been a lot of pressure on him - some of it I would imagine self-inflicted. Players are sometimes talked about as if they are automatons but if I was 19 amd suddenly had the world at my feet and then started struggling a bit with fans getting on my back I think I'd find that pretty hard to take. Ellis went into a struggling side and there was a lot of expectation on him to be a difference maker at a very young age. I'm not surprised he found it tough on and off the field - it's a hard thing to put on a player. Then last year he put together a good run and everyone went 'he's cracked it'. But the bar keeps being raised on him. I also entirely agree with the person who posted the difference between how the performancews of 'flair' players and other players are interpreted. It's about player type and position. If you are a workmanlike centre midfield player what you do every game doesn't change very much. Your ability to perform and influence the game is largely based on your own efforts urgo players in that position are nearly always lauded for their workrate and consistancy - same goes for centre backs and defenders generally. Wingers and skilled attackers on the other hand rely a lot more on what happens on the day for how effective they can be - who they're matched up against, how other players in the team perform, how our side is set up etc. As a result they are often labelled inconsistent and criticised for workrate/attitude etc. This is a constant theme throughout football history. It's largely rubbish though. I ultimately agree that the 1 thing that really hold Ellis back is that his back to goal player remains fairly poor which makes it a lot harder for him to create his own opportunities -although I felt he had improved quite a bit in that area last season.
As you imply he definitely needs some game time away from the expectations at the Mem to improve in his own time and learn the game more, so I agree with you that the loan is therefore a good idea.
I don't think that's the implication really. My feeling is that going to Hartlepool at this stage in the season is unlikely to make very much of a difference one way or the other. In fact, I honestly feel Ellis would have been better off going on loan to a Conference contender rather than playing for a disfunctional side in a relegation battle under a manager who is notorious for throwing his players under the bus to protect himself. I think Ellis is still young enough to go through a few more peaks and troughs before he could be adequately defined as a player - when it comes to the relative success of lower league players a lot of it is luck and chemistry. In the right team Ellis could probably be a very effective lower league performer - he's already shown he is capable of being an impact player but the leap to regular performer is a tough one mentally and technically. My main interest is Rovers though and I remain surprised that we chose to send an attacking squad player out on loan at this stage in the season. It's really not a massive deal though - either way I don't think it will make or break either Rovers season or Harrison's career. It just seems peculiar timing is all. If this had happened sometime before Christmas I could understand it perfectly from the point of view of both parties - with 20 games to go, less so. Now he's injured anyway so it has become even less relevant.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 13:11:02 GMT
Er, no it wasn't. It was that Marcus was allowed a social life because he was good, and that Ellis should also be allowed a social life even though he isn't as good as Marcus was. Er, no it wasn't.
"I think Marcus Stewart is the best Rovers player I have ever seen. He wasn't renowned for early nights and sensible behaviour."
Linking 'best player' - i.e. performance - with what they do off the pitch.
I don't think anyone is against Ellis staying out late for moral reasons, just performance reasons.
Yes fair point, I thought I was replying to you telling me what my argument was, not Rex's. He can fight his own battles
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