Rod1883
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 136
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Post by Rod1883 on Jan 20, 2016 17:43:28 GMT
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Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,549
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Post by Bridgeman on Jan 20, 2016 20:01:38 GMT
Kp, you should know me by now (although not personally of course) not to be programmed have you read the article where Ellis says how the loan has come about and how he spoke with Andy Monkhouse before he made his decision ? I accept the cynicism that some are greeting this with and will want to search for other reasons but Ellis is going on loan for 4 weeks only, not for the rest of the season. If he was being sent out on loan for the rest of the season that would be an entirely different matter but he's not. Hello Bridgey, I have seen it but there is something that unsettles me about it. I guess you have seen me post about now not putting unsubstantiated rumour ? I have been hung out to dry on that score and so I now avoid posting the nuggets of information that I still get thrown but I will say that I have heard, several times, that Harrison was to be let go. There is a part of me that really wished I could take the clubs information at face value, it would make it much simpler for me but I am afraid that I have come to distrust anything that is told me or us. I think I am justified in being this way to be honest. Yes, on the face of it this is just a short term loan but it just doesn't make sense to allow him to go. This is a player that, when on form, is a real threat and played a huge part in our getting promoted back to football league status. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. No disrespect or hard feelings but I just cannot trust those people who run the club None taken KP, and I understand where you are coming from. Hope you've managed to get to the last few home games
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Post by fanatical on Jan 20, 2016 20:29:45 GMT
unfortunately Harrison thinks he is better than he actually is. He is yet incapable of playing sustained football for 90 mins. Hopefully his time at Hartlepool under an experienced manager will make him realise the facts of life and make him abetter player
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 20:52:42 GMT
unfortunately Harrison thinks he is better than he actually is. He is yet incapable of playing sustained football for 90 mins. Hopefully his time at Hartlepool under an experienced manager will make him realise the facts of life and make him abetter player Even more unfortunate is the fact that some Rovers supporters think that Harrison is better than he actually is. I keep reading about his 'potential',its got to be a tag that's always added when mentioning him,like Blissett and 'raw'. Why is it the scouts from bigger clubs cant see Harrisons 'potential' ?. I don't think that he is or will be good enough for this division and he will end up playing non league.
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Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,549
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Post by Bridgeman on Jan 21, 2016 4:07:26 GMT
unfortunately Harrison thinks he is better than he actually is. He is yet incapable of playing sustained football for 90 mins. Hopefully his time at Hartlepool under an experienced manager will make him realise the facts of life and make him abetter player Yes, sadly that lad Shaquille Hunter thought the same too, anyone have any idea what he is doing these days ?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 7:55:24 GMT
I can see bugger all similarities between Harrison and Hunter. Most people praise Harrison's character, I'm not sure many people had a good word for Hunter's.
Last I heard he had signed for Bristol City, which I struggled to believe at the time. A cursory search just now sheds no light on how that has worked out.
But on a more general note, isn't believing you are better than you are a good thing for a footballer? Its got to be better than believing you're not as good as you could be.
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dido
Predictions League
Peter Aitken
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,883
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Post by dido on Jan 21, 2016 8:51:12 GMT
Tom Lockyer clearly believes he is not as good as he could be (yet). He and DC agree on this.
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Post by gashead1979 on Jan 21, 2016 9:47:51 GMT
Tom Lockyer clearly believes he is not as good as he could be (yet). He and DC agree on this.
Ellis and Tom share digs together.
Guess which one prefers partying til the early hours and which one has early nights and visits his parents in Wales regularly?
Tom is a sensible lad and seems to be going about things in the right manner and looking after himself. Ellis on the other hand seems to be letting any ability go to waste.
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,166
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Post by Cheshiregas on Jan 21, 2016 10:28:57 GMT
But on a more general note, isn't believing you are better than you are a good thing for a footballer? Its got to be better than believing you're not as good as you could be. At the end of the day it is what you deliver on the football pitch that matters. If Ellis was producing week in week out I do believe he would be in the starting line up each week. As for the second sentence I honestly believe that Stuart Sinclair didn't realise how good he could be. He just got his head down and battled (and continues to battle) and perform week in week out. He seems genuinely overwhelmed by the admiration of the fans and the fact that he is picked every week. He doesn't rest on his laurels but works bloody hard to keep his place. If Ellis could capture that same ethic he wouldn't need to go to Hartlepool to get game time.
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warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,455
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Post by warehamgas on Jan 21, 2016 11:23:08 GMT
I like Ellis and wish he could score more goals. But DC has given him chances and with his ability to score very good goals he should have done better IMO. But with the forwards we have I don't disagree with sending him off on loan esp to a team who is not in direct opposition at our end of table. I only hope that DC has said to Ellis get fit, see what's it's like at other teams and then come back determined to show us what a player he could be. He should look at Lee B, Stuart S and Tom L to see how a good attitude and ability can lead to being consistently chosen, but perhaps he has to directly experience it for himself. I hope he comes back and score 5 or 6 goals in Last part of season. Whatever happens I hope we can all agree that last season after Christmas he was one of our stand out players and his goals made the difference between regaining our league position and not! I think he will have already learnt a lesson at Hartlepool in the first few days with being given a public kick up the **** by Ronnie Moore. Interesting to see how he reacts. UTG!
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Post by mrbluesky on Jan 21, 2016 12:01:20 GMT
all the talk about his attitude and character miss the point that he still struggles with some technical issues. hes not too good with his back to goal and he dosnt make enough intelligent runs into dangerous areas for me,,i dont think his football brain matches his athletic ability,just an opinion
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Post by laughinggas on Jan 21, 2016 12:26:56 GMT
Close to being the an old topic. Generally we moan about the 'flair' players not having the work rate. Players in this bracket are possibly; Harrison Lines All the wide players Easter
Then there are work rate players Taylor Sinclair Mansell Lockyer
Who has the flair and work rate that appeases all? Gaffney Brown Parkes possibly, can pick some long passes.
Either way seems to be a never ending debate.....
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Post by oviedista on Jan 21, 2016 13:00:35 GMT
Close to being the an old topic. Generally we moan about the 'flair' players not having the work rate. Players in this bracket are possibly; Harrison Lines All the wide players Easter Then there are work rate players Taylor Sinclair Mansell Lockyer Who has the flair and work rate that appeases all? Gaffney Brown Parkes possibly, can pick some long passes. Either way seems to be a never ending debate..... Hmmm. I would say Taylor is technically better than Harrison. Parkes and flair? Barnet effectively allowed him the ball when down to ten.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jan 21, 2016 19:13:52 GMT
Close to being the an old topic. Generally we moan about the 'flair' players not having the work rate. Players in this bracket are possibly; Harrison Lines All the wide players Easter Then there are work rate players Taylor Sinclair Mansell Lockyer Who has the flair and work rate that appeases all? Gaffney Brown Parkes possibly, can pick some long passes. Either way seems to be a never ending debate..... That is pretty much on the money. I think us Rovers oldies have always enjoyed seeing players who will give their all. I have been amongst a crowd who have clapped off a few Rovers teams who have lost yet still given their all. I think it's just part and parcel of what we are and is intrinsically a part of being a gashead. You can see that we have had a fair few, where a ability was overcome by work rate and sheer persistence and it's why we are enjoying this team, I believe anyway. Lit seems that Ellis has some friends that play at an higher level and has had his head turned by that but I also can't help but wonder if he has ever had a chance to play alongside someone such as Gaffney and how the flare play would work when he had more space, due to Gaffney bringing defenders to him ? As long as I remember it, we have always given our fullest of support to those players who give their all.
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warehamgas
Predictions League
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Posts: 3,455
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Post by warehamgas on Jan 22, 2016 9:52:27 GMT
all the talk about his attitude and character miss the point that he still struggles with some technical issues. hes not too good with his back to goal and he dosnt make enough intelligent runs into dangerous areas for me,,i dont think his football brain matches his athletic ability,just an opinion Agree. Sometimes I've watched him and thought his first touch is not good and I don't believe Marcus S hasn't spent a lot of time with him over his technical bits, positional play, timing of runs etc.... Yet I'm not sure he learns or puts it into practice. I would like to think he still could.
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Post by fanatical on Jan 22, 2016 10:34:32 GMT
all the talk about his attitude and character miss the point that he still struggles with some technical issues. hes not too good with his back to goal and he dosnt make enough intelligent runs into dangerous areas for me,,i dont think his football brain matches his athletic ability,just an opinion Absolutely to the point - he is a well built athlete - with a natural football instinct - but his brain?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 11:47:15 GMT
all the talk about his attitude and character miss the point that he still struggles with some technical issues. hes not too good with his back to goal and he dosnt make enough intelligent runs into dangerous areas for me,,i dont think his football brain matches his athletic ability,just an opinion Absolutely to the point - he is a well built athlete - with a natural football instinct - but his brain? So what we're saying is he's got the stuff you cannot teach, but he's struggling with the bits he ought to be able to learn? And others say we can't talk about his potential? Its all about opinions
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irishrover
Global Moderator
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Post by irishrover on Jan 22, 2016 12:53:51 GMT
Absolutely to the point - he is a well built athlete - with a natural football instinct - but his brain? So what we're saying is he's got the stuff you cannot teach, but he's struggling with the bits he ought to be able to learn? And others say we can't talk about his potential? Its all about opinions I think that Harrison is in some ways a victim of expectations. Anyone who was at the first few games he played would have been awestruck by his potentially especially because (unless you were closely following the fortunes of the youth teams) Ward appeared to introduce him from absolutely nowhere and he had a spectacular impact. The trouble is people see performances like that and expect players to maintain them in every game and it's unrealistic especially in a 19 year old who was still very much learning to be a professional. Players don't arrive fully formed. The trouble is that he has failed to replicate that and so there has been a lot of pressure on him - some of it I would imagine self-inflicted. Players are sometimes talked about as if they are automatons but if I was 19 amd suddenly had the world at my feet and then started struggling a bit with fans getting on my back I think I'd find that pretty hard to take. Ellis went into a struggling side and there was a lot of expectation on him to be a difference maker at a very young age. I'm not surprised he found it tough on and off the field - it's a hard thing to put on a player. Then last year he put together a good run and everyone went 'he's cracked it'. But the bar keeps being raised on him. I also entirely agree with the person who posted the difference between how the performancews of 'flair' players and other players are interpreted. It's about player type and position. If you are a workmanlike centre midfield player what you do every game doesn't change very much. Your ability to perform and influence the game is largely based on your own efforts urgo players in that position are nearly always lauded for their workrate and consistancy - same goes for centre backs and defenders generally. Wingers and skilled attackers on the other hand rely a lot more on what happens on the day for how effective they can be - who they're matched up against, how other players in the team perform, how our side is set up etc. As a result they are often labelled inconsistent and criticised for workrate/attitude etc. This is a constant theme throughout football history. It's largely rubbish though. I ultimately agree that the 1 thing that really hold Ellis back is that his back to goal player remains fairly poor which makes it a lot harder for him to create his own opportunities -although I felt he had improved quite a bit in that area last season.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 13:22:02 GMT
I think he gets a harder time of it from supporters since he went in the away end at Cardiff than he was getting before that.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Jan 22, 2016 16:34:47 GMT
So what we're saying is he's got the stuff you cannot teach, but he's struggling with the bits he ought to be able to learn? And others say we can't talk about his potential? Its all about opinions I think that Harrison is in some ways a victim of expectations. Anyone who was at the first few games he played would have been awestruck by his potentially especially because (unless you were closely following the fortunes of the youth teams) Ward appeared to introduce him from absolutely nowhere and he had a spectacular impact. The trouble is people see performances like that and expect players to maintain them in every game and it's unrealistic especially in a 19 year old who was still very much learning to be a professional. Players don't arrive fully formed. The trouble is that he has failed to replicate that and so there has been a lot of pressure on him - some of it I would imagine self-inflicted. Players are sometimes talked about as if they are automatons but if I was 19 amd suddenly had the world at my feet and then started struggling a bit with fans getting on my back I think I'd find that pretty hard to take. Ellis went into a struggling side and there was a lot of expectation on him to be a difference maker at a very young age. I'm not surprised he found it tough on and off the field - it's a hard thing to put on a player. Then last year he put together a good run and everyone went 'he's cracked it'. But the bar keeps being raised on him. I also entirely agree with the person who posted the difference between how the performancews of 'flair' players and other players are interpreted. It's about player type and position. If you are a workmanlike centre midfield player what you do every game doesn't change very much. Your ability to perform and influence the game is largely based on your own efforts urgo players in that position are nearly always lauded for their workrate and consistancy - same goes for centre backs and defenders generally. Wingers and skilled attackers on the other hand rely a lot more on what happens on the day for how effective they can be - who they're matched up against, how other players in the team perform, how our side is set up etc. As a result they are often labelled inconsistent and criticised for workrate/attitude etc. This is a constant theme throughout football history. It's largely rubbish though. I ultimately agree that the 1 thing that really hold Ellis back is that his back to goal player remains fairly poor which makes it a lot harder for him to create his own opportunities -although I felt he had improved quite a bit in that area last season.
As you imply he definitely needs some game time away from the expectations at the Mem to improve in his own time and learn the game more, so I agree with you that the loan is therefore a good idea.
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