Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 11:41:25 GMT
Many ! we have the club we deserve because some fans don't moan enough . where have you been the last 5 yrs ? Watching my club slowly die. But even if half the fan base were against the incompetents, they wouldn't change. No worries if folk want to point out the failures of the board or not, some just want to go to the game, but the problem I have is with the ones who are actively happy with Higgs and friends. How about people like me ? I'm happy with what Mr Higgs is trying to achieve with the UWE Project (yes its now a project so i've been told) but not happy with the day to day running of my club I think the time has come for one change on the board - get rid of Tony the Till and replace with a man who can add 1+1 and get £30m
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 11:43:08 GMT
The MSP Capital post was intended to find out if the directors were still loaning unsecured money to Rovers and so still had faith in the future. Why did no one want to talk about these matters was it because they were frightened or embarrassed ? If there are recent unsecured loans there could be an explanation other than having faith in the future. It could be that, in the absence of Sainsbury's money, nobody else values the stadium above the sum already secured against it?
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irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
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Post by irishrover on Jan 31, 2015 11:55:41 GMT
Yep, especially where 'imposing' includes 'dismissive' as in 'you're not a true fan unless you cheer everything like a simpleton' and 'unity is required from you b******s'. Plus, we're clearly not 'by far the greatest team the world has ever seen' because we're in the effing Conference and shouldn't be, so steadfast back slapping and self-licking is deluded and unhelpful, and deserves slapping down. People from the "imposing" group have to be imposing because of all the negative drivel they read on here about how the club is run - it makes them feel better ! Ah - but you don't actually get a proper counter argument really. You just get veiled attacks on people's characters and moans about 'negativity'. I have moved as the evidence has moved. I am not naturally ill disposed towards the board and I have no particular desire to see them replaced - I just want them to accept a greater degree of accountability and stop behaving like they are afraid of half their fanbase. But what I have seen is my club get relegated to the lowest point in 100 years, continue to run up unsustainable debts to the point where auditors have doubts about us as an an ongoing concern and the entire financial future of the club appears to have been gambled on a single complex project. I don't like any of these things but am prepared to listen to counter argument; yet I don't hear any I just hear personal attacks on certain posters (most of whom give as good as they get). Instead the only thing that comes remotely close is 'we wouldn't be here but for Nick Higgs' but all he has done is pour more money down the black hole. If the club was on firmer financial footing that would be fine; but it's not it's in an even worse position. It simply owes more money to it's board of directors than it did before; that is hardly something to jump up and down about. The idea that this has protected the club from investors who don't care about it is bizarre; in fact it has made it even more inevitable that at some point down the line because at some point those losses will become unsustainable and we will either go bust or give the club over to asset strippers. Please tell me what there is to be positive about and why the club is not badly run because all the evidence seem to point in that direction and very little in the opposite and I used to be considered a 'rose-tinter' (whatever the hell that means).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 12:36:40 GMT
People from the "imposing" group have to be imposing because of all the negative drivel they read on here about how the club is run - it makes them feel better ! Ah - but you don't actually get a proper counter argument really. You just get veiled attacks on people's characters and moans about 'negativity'. I have moved as the evidence has moved. I am not naturally ill disposed towards the board and I have no particular desire to see them replaced - I just want them to accept a greater degree of accountability and stop behaving like they are afraid of half their fanbase. But what I have seen is my club get relegated to the lowest point in 100 years, continue to run up unsustainable debts to the point where auditors have doubts about us as an an ongoing concern and the entire financial future of the club appears to have been gambled on a single complex project. I don't like any of these things but am prepared to listen to counter argument; yet I don't hear any I just hear personal attacks on certain posters (most of whom give as good as they get). Instead the only thing that comes remotely close is 'we wouldn't be here but for Nick Higgs' but all he has done is pour more money down the black hole. If the club was on firmer financial footing that would be fine; but it's not it's in an even worse position. It simply owes more money to it's board of directors than it did before; that is hardly something to jump up and down about. The idea that this has protected the club from investors who don't care about it is bizarre; in fact it has made it even more inevitable that at some point down the line because at some point those losses will become unsustainable and we will either go bust or give the club over to asset strippers. Please tell me what there is to be positive about and why the club is not badly run because all the evidence seem to point in that direction and very little in the opposite and I used to be considered a 'rose-tinter' (whatever the hell that means). The way forward for this club is to find ways to generate enough cash to replace a facility that is years out of date and no hope of earning the sort of revenue that is needed to exist as an ongoing concern at a reasonable level within the football pyramid. The current mem facilities will NEVER do that and never has, so has required a input from the incumbent board at the time. I can understand why Nick Higgs has attempted to make the quantum jump to all things UWE its the only fast track way we are going to make money to live with the likes of league 1 level clubs. and they plan nearly worked ! i'm sure if the UWE project had started at bit sooner, the current issues with the big supermarket chains would not have been an issue. The way forward ?, to be honest, i don't think there is one without the help of further fiscal input from either the current board (Unlikely) or the club sold to a consortium that can provide a large enough fiscal input to make a difference I Don't think the mem is the answer, either as is or with a redeveloped stadium, the infrastructure of the area will always be the limiting factor. No the future is with facilities like The UWE Project, sadly i don't think Rovers will achieve that on its own
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 12:58:01 GMT
The way forward for this club is to find ways to generate enough cash to replace a facility that is years out of date and no hope of earning the sort of revenue that is needed to exist as an ongoing concern at a reasonable level within the football pyramid. Not sure about that. In what way is The Mem worse than Whaddon Rd, Newport's little mecano stadium, Victoria Rd (Daggenham, total dump), Roots Hall, I could go on and on, but you get the point, those clubs are surviving at a level higher than Rovers with similar or even worse stadiums. I've asked it before, but nobody answered. Look at the losses Higgs has amassed whilst taking us out of the League. Just how much money is a new stadium supposed to generate? The reality is that, if well run, Rovers could and should survive in L1 on gate receipts and normal advertising / sponsorship.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 13:09:08 GMT
The way forward for this club is to find ways to generate enough cash to replace a facility that is years out of date and no hope of earning the sort of revenue that is needed to exist as an ongoing concern at a reasonable level within the football pyramid. Not sure about that. In what way is The Mem worse than Whaddon Rd, Newport's little mecano stadium, Victoria Rd (Daggenham, total dump), Roots Hall, I could go on and on, but you get the point, those clubs are surviving at a level higher than Rovers with similar or even worse stadiums. I've asked it before, but nobody answered. Look at the losses Higgs has amassed whilst taking us out of the League. Just how much money is a new stadium supposed to generate? The reality is that, if well run, Rovers could and should survive in L1 on gate receipts and normal advertising / sponsorship. And i bet if you asked each and everyone of those clubs BOD are they happy with their current facilities in helping facilitate a sustainable future for their club i'm pretty sure they would all say no
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Post by lympstonegas on Jan 31, 2015 13:23:19 GMT
Nope you're 100% wrong on my account. I was actually playing Devils Advocate. If it is of any interest and to counter faggotygas claim I am making subtle but damming criticisms of the club you couldn't be further from the truth. Being a supporter of the club since 1967 I Never believed i would ever see us in the Basement as City were - whilst I recognise there were failings at Board level I believe the focus of the failures lay with the managers and players- buying policy tactics training and attitudes over the past 7 odd years. As a psychotherapist my role is to recognise the positives and work with those to provide optimism belief and hope to enable one to move forward once negative behaviours and coping strategies are identified and corrected to give a good foundation. I recognise there are people on here who don't believe this platform is in place at the club - no tangible outcomes of a review communicated to the fans. I actually hold faith that there is. Higgs is a fan and relegation and incompetence would hurt / it's his money, role as figurehead and personal pride and I feel his biggest mistake was he trusted those in charge of the playing side for too long - possibly sidetracked understandly by all the politically manoeuvring by Trash Sainsbury and UWE dealings. I actually believe in what DC is doing and feel it demonstrates a different approach based on a review strategy? I think we will get promoted and if that makes me a rose tinted happy clapper I don't care as my philosophy has always been to use your energy and resources to build a new future not dwell on misery and failings of the past so you become paralysed in negativity. I'm sorry if this posting upsets some on here. I have been honest in my opinion and support the OP. I recognise others will feel different and I can respect that even if it can frustrate me professionally some times ? 1. As a psychotherapist, what does your subconscious association of negativity with discussion of the future of the club tell you? 2. You think our position as the most underachieving football club in the country is not down to the way the club is run? How many managers and players have we been through, yet the decline continued - can't just be bad luck in recruitment. 1 - I don't hold that negativity about the future of the club. There will always be those that do but I hope that can change as changes on and off the pitch come to fruitition. Yes there is so much doubt about UWE and funding and in a way the quicker that is sorted one way or another the better and we can all move on. Hopefully there will be a clear plan B communicated if UWE fails because of Sainsbury, even if it is just the desperately needed improvements to the Mem. I believe The Board will have this and after any natural initial disappointment regarding UWE supporters will unite behind the club. After all most of the negativity on here is a belief UWE won't happen we won't get anything from Sainsburys and the Mem will be left to rot as there is no money. I don't know all the politics don't buy into all the rumours of those supposedly in the know but I do believe there will be something positive to come out of the current negotiations with Sainsbury/ subsequent Court action and sourcing of new monies into the club. Yes I do realise any redevelopment of the Mem will need new planning permission and this is likely to receive fresh opposition from ROSE and Trash supporters. However I'm prepared to remain optimistic and wait and see - after all I've waited 47 years for a new ground. 2- I don't believe we are the biggest underachieving club in the country Full stop. As I've already said I concede there has been mistakes made on both sides which have contributed to our demise. Yes I do believe a lot of it all has been simply down to poor buying and the Board in their choice and loyalty to managers. Getting rid of LL and Trollope too early / Should Higgs given into player power or crushed it early to give the new manager a chance/ Buckle was deemed an up and coming manager with conference promotion on his cv - Should Higgs taken heed to the fact he came with a reputation. I think Higgs as a football fan was so excited that he had chance to present us with a Scottish legend that he didn't do enough background research into his actual ability to have the contacts at our level to get us out of trouble. Ward got us the points to stay up but was a sticking plaster as results were poor come the end - Should Higgs have started the new season with a new manager and new squad. There has been a consistent pattern of managers buying players looking for final payday that are injury prone and offering poor return for their contracts - poor team selections / players playing out of position / poor tactics strategies especially when playing away - setting teams up to not lose as opposed to win - it's all been there. Its easy to be wise in hindsight but I do believe following a review there is a new sttategy in place and so far DC is delivering against that plan and promotion remains realistic. I'm not saying if it is achieved we brush all of the past above under the carpet but that we have another review to see what went well and what could be improved. It is such a tragedy we had to hit rock bottom before there was any real action of change.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 13:32:44 GMT
Not sure about that. In what way is The Mem worse than Whaddon Rd, Newport's little mecano stadium, Victoria Rd (Daggenham, total dump), Roots Hall, I could go on and on, but you get the point, those clubs are surviving at a level higher than Rovers with similar or even worse stadiums. I've asked it before, but nobody answered. Look at the losses Higgs has amassed whilst taking us out of the League. Just how much money is a new stadium supposed to generate? The reality is that, if well run, Rovers could and should survive in L1 on gate receipts and normal advertising / sponsorship. And i bet if you asked each and everyone of those clubs BOD are they happy with their current facilities in helping facilitate a sustainable future for their club i'm pretty sure they would all say no Of course, they will all want better for their clubs. But it's a total smokescreen and distraction to suggest that the only way Rovers could survive as a League club is with more income. Look up and down the list of L1 and L2 clubs, do a fag packet calculation based on income and then ask yourself how many of those other clubs would love to swap their income with Rovers.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 13:37:26 GMT
And i bet if you asked each and everyone of those clubs BOD are they happy with their current facilities in helping facilitate a sustainable future for their club i'm pretty sure they would all say no Of course, they will all want better for their clubs. But it's a total smokescreen and distraction to suggest that the only way Rovers could survive as a League club is with more income. Look up and down the list of L1 and L2 clubs, do a fag packet calculation based on income and then ask yourself how many of those other clubs would love to swap their income with Rovers. So if Rovers keep the same facilities and the same income for say the next 5 years, do you see us as a league 1 club in that time ? I Don't, i see us exactly as we are now.. It took Luton to have external funding and 5 years to get out of this league and without more income streams we will be the same
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 13:56:44 GMT
Of course, they will all want better for their clubs. But it's a total smokescreen and distraction to suggest that the only way Rovers could survive as a League club is with more income. Look up and down the list of L1 and L2 clubs, do a fag packet calculation based on income and then ask yourself how many of those other clubs would love to swap their income with Rovers. So if Rovers keep the same facilities and the same income for say the next 5 years, do you see us as a league 1 club in that time ? I Don't, i see us exactly as we are now.. It took Luton to have external funding and 5 years to get out of this league and without more income streams we will be the same That's a different question. Without help or massive investment from somewhere Higgs will never get Rovers back to L1. He's already shown that he can lose many millions whilst taking us backwards. But pointing out the failings of this BoD can get you a lifetime ban from their stadium, so maybe it's best left there.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,862
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Post by faggotygas on Jan 31, 2015 15:24:25 GMT
1. As a psychotherapist, what does your subconscious association of negativity with discussion of the future of the club tell you? 2. You think our position as the most underachieving football club in the country is not down to the way the club is run? How many managers and players have we been through, yet the decline continued - can't just be bad luck in recruitment. 1 - I don't hold that negativity about the future of the club. There will always be those that do but I hope that can change as changes on and off the pitch come to fruitition. Yes there is so much doubt about UWE and funding and in a way the quicker that is sorted one way or another the better and we can all move on. Hopefully there will be a clear plan B communicated if UWE fails because of Sainsbury, even if it is just the desperately needed improvements to the Mem. I believe The Board will have this and after any natural initial disappointment regarding UWE supporters will unite behind the club. After all most of the negativity on here is a belief UWE won't happen we won't get anything from Sainsburys and the Mem will be left to rot as there is no money. I don't know all the politics don't buy into all the rumours of those supposedly in the know but I do believe there will be something positive to come out of the current negotiations with Sainsbury/ subsequent Court action and sourcing of new monies into the club. Yes I do realise any redevelopment of the Mem will need new planning permission and this is likely to receive fresh opposition from ROSE and Trash supporters. However I'm prepared to remain optimistic and wait and see - after all I've waited 47 years for a new ground. 2- I don't believe we are the biggest underachieving club in the country Full stop. As I've already said I concede there has been mistakes made on both sides which have contributed to our demise. Yes I do believe a lot of it all has been simply down to poor buying and the Board in their choice and loyalty to managers. Getting rid of LL and Trollope too early / Should Higgs given into player power or crushed it early to give the new manager a chance/ Buckle was deemed an up and coming manager with conference promotion on his cv - Should Higgs taken heed to the fact he came with a reputation. I think Higgs as a football fan was so excited that he had chance to present us with a Scottish legend that he didn't do enough background research into his actual ability to have the contacts at our level to get us out of trouble. Ward got us the points to stay up but was a sticking plaster as results were poor come the end - Should Higgs have started the new season with a new manager and new squad. There has been a consistent pattern of managers buying players looking for final payday that are injury prone and offering poor return for their contracts - poor team selections / players playing out of position / poor tactics strategies especially when playing away - setting teams up to not lose as opposed to win - it's all been there. It's easy to be wise in hindsight but I do believe following a review there is a new sttategy in place and so far DC is delivering against that plan and promotion remains realistic. I'm not saying if it is achieved we brush a of the past above under the carpet but that we gave snother review to see what went well snd whst could be improved. It is such a tragedy we had to hit rock bottom before there was any real action of change. 1. Your own words betray you. I mentioned that some supporters are interested in the future of the club, you then associated that interest with negativity - not me. 2.I proved in a thread a couple of months ago that based on any quantitative measure you like, Rovers are the most underachieving club in the country. Base it on historical league position, supporter base, average attendance, turnover, whatever you like, we are around 40 places lower in the league than we should be. Only Sheffield United come close.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 15:43:36 GMT
Ha ha Far too subtle faggotygas Nope you're 100% wrong on my account. I was actually playing Devils Advocate. If it is of any interest and to counter faggotygas claim I am making subtle but damming criticisms of the club you couldn't be further from the truth. Being a supporter of the club since 1967 I Never believed i would ever see us in the Basement as City were - whilst I recognise there were failings at Board level I believe the focus of the failures lay with the managers and players- buying policy tactics training and attitudes over the past 7 odd years. As a psychotherapist my role is to recognise the positives and work with those to provide optimism belief and hope to enable one to move forward once negative behaviours and coping strategies are identified and corrected to give a good foundation. I recognise there are people on here who don't believe this platform is in place at the club - no tangible outcomes of a review communicated to the fans. I actually hold faith that there is. Higgs is a fan and relegation and incompetence would hurt / it's his money, role as figurehead and personal pride and I feel his biggest mistake was he trusted those in charge of the playing side for too long - possibly sidetracked understandly by all the politically manoeuvring by Trash Sainsbury and UWE dealings. I actually believe in what DC is doing and feel it demonstrates a different approach based on a review strategy? I think we will get promoted and if that makes me a rose tinted happy clapper I don't care as my philosophy has always been to use your energy and resources to build a new future not dwell on misery and failings of the past so you become paralysed in negativity. I'm sorry if this posting upsets some on here. I have been honest in my opinion and support the OP. I recognise others will feel different and I can respect that even if it can frustrate me professionally some times ? The middle part of your post is great, and I only raise an eyebrow at 'I actually hold faith that there is', not least because your justification doesn't match the problem. If someone's been in an abusive relationship for years, subject to repeated behaviour from a partner who shows no signs of having changed, but holds fast to the traditional 'but he loves me really' and 'it's probably my fault' lines, is that a solid platform for forgetting the past and focussing on the positives? Wouldn't they be better recognising the faults in that party so that, if they do stick with them, they can at least factor that into the relationship and their mindset to avoid future shock and disappointment when it next kicks in? Isn't that the healthier way? My main beef is that the platform is not in place. Wouldn't a good sign of a solid platform to park past failures and accentuate the positives to power forward be that the other side recognises and admits its mistakes? Add to that, if the guilty party is reformed, shouldn't they be happy to explain how and why things went wrong and are going to be different in the future? How has any of that happened here? If they have confidence in what they're doing, why the perpetual Trappist silence on the subject? When that platform's in place, I can be very forgiving, but it's not. isn't there a notion that part of the reform is that someone accepts responsibility for their own behaviour in order to manage it? How does blaming all managers over the past 7 years do that? It just attunes us to expect another 7 years of the same, powerless to do anything about it. It's nonsense. Actually it's 14 years of general failure: isn't thee a pattern that something's wrong and needs recognising and changing? Everything can't be someone else's fault. I don't know why you give them a free pass from that self-examination and declare them well meaning, therefore reformed and fully to be relied upon.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
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Post by kingswood Polak on Feb 1, 2015 2:01:25 GMT
Unless MSP paid out more than one of the board MSP has obviously cleared Barclays and GD (Deltavon) because their legal charges have been released. No idea if GD got full repayment / full value for his personal loans and shares. With regard to Higgs, some or all of his personal unsecured loans to the club have been turned into new shares. If he can find someone to buy them in the future he may or may not get his money back. In the meantime though, from a debt point of view this is a good thing. People have been saying the club is in debt to the tune of anything between £5m to £10m. The true debt figure is what we owe externally to MSP which will be shown at some point in the accounts. Thanks for explaining that. It would be good to know the true figure but IF true then it makes me feel he must feel there is a good chance of winning in court
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