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Post by a more piratey game on Aug 12, 2021 11:07:32 GMT
Incredible programme, I always thought Cyprus was the launderette of the world and now it's a dodge pot passport centre. The offshore trusts and nominee revelations were very revealing. Don't Dwane Sports who own Rovers now have 5 offshore nominees fronting it's ownership ever since Hani stepped down. Before it was 4 members of the family. What's to hide ? I can't tell if you are genuinely asking a question or insinuating something Can anyone clarify (paging Swiss..)?
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on Aug 12, 2021 11:09:42 GMT
Don't throw mud around in the hope that it sticks. You can criticise Wael, but don't try to insinuate that he is a dodgy owner. Leave that crap to Masters and Co. Wael is a genuine football fanatic, struggling to find a Manager who can get results. Struggling or just making poor decisions, one after another ? Remember, this is the man who changed the clubs apparent philosophy and used terms such as DNA, brought in a rookie manager and ripped apart a fairly solid league 1 team. People are quick to blame the CEO and Widdrington but it was Wael who had this vision. Nice bloke he may well be but he has made some potentially diabolical decisions.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,503
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Post by eppinggas on Aug 12, 2021 11:52:28 GMT
Don't throw mud around in the hope that it sticks. You can criticise Wael, but don't try to insinuate that he is a dodgy owner. Leave that crap to Masters and Co. Wael is a genuine football fanatic, struggling to find a Manager who can get results. Whoa there. I don't think swiss is insinuating anything. I think we can all agree (including swiss) that Wael is a genuine football fanatic. I found the article interesting. It's a warning about potential future owners of BRFC and calls into question the competence of the EFL and a worrying lack of governance. It certainly belongs in "Guzzler" and not "Other". As for Wael struggling to find a decent manager, agreed. He has failed with Garner, Tisdale and Barton.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 12:21:21 GMT
Well worth spending an hour watching that programme and witnessing the type of person our previous owner spent time entertaining before securing a buyer.
The evidence in the programme does raise the question as to why the EFL and FA allow offshore companies to own football clubs where they have no chance of knowing the owners true identity.
For the record I am not suggesting that our current owners are hiding anything with their offshore company.
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Post by chelt_gas on Aug 12, 2021 12:40:24 GMT
I wonder how many of the Prem clubs are owned essentially offshore. Spending $100m to buy out the contract of a substitute midfielder for England is just obscene money - how many season tickets and pasties would we have to sell before Wael could come up with that cash.
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vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
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Post by vaughan on Aug 12, 2021 12:55:18 GMT
Don't throw mud around in the hope that it sticks. You can criticise Wael, but don't try to insinuate that he is a dodgy owner. Leave that crap to Masters and Co. Wael is a genuine football fanatic, struggling to find a Manager who can get results. Whoa there. I don't think swiss is insinuating anything. I think we can all agree (including swiss) that Wael is a genuine football fanatic. I found the article interesting. It's a warning about potential future owners of BRFC and calls into question the competence of the EFL and a worrying lack of governance. It certainly belongs in "Guzzler" and not "Other". As for Wael struggling to find a decent manager, agreed. He has failed with Garner, Tisdale and Barton. There is insinuation. You may not wish to see it, but the link between the programme and DS as an offshore company is deliberate. Read Swiss' second paragraph. My advice to him is consistent. There is enough to moan about without his "clever" sh*t-stirring. To be fair to Higgs, he didn't sell us down the river and Hamer did a lot of the leg-work. #boohiss. We were looking into the abyss when DS took us over as our "Gashead Directors" had no cash left to fund the losses, hence Wonga loan.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 13:10:54 GMT
These offshore structures certainly are complicated.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 14:35:26 GMT
Whoa there. I don't think swiss is insinuating anything. I think we can all agree (including swiss) that Wael is a genuine football fanatic. I found the article interesting. It's a warning about potential future owners of BRFC and calls into question the competence of the EFL and a worrying lack of governance. It certainly belongs in "Guzzler" and not "Other". As for Wael struggling to find a decent manager, agreed. He has failed with Garner, Tisdale and Barton. There is insinuation. You may not wish to see it, but the link between the programme and DS as an offshore company is deliberate. Read Swiss' second paragraph. My advice to him is consistent. There is enough to moan about without his "clever" sh*t-stirring. To be fair to Higgs, he didn't sell us down the river and Hamer did a lot of the leg-work. #boohiss. We were looking into the abyss when DS took us over as our "Gashead Directors" had no cash left to fund the losses, hence Wonga loan. In a single post you've lambasted Swiss for insinuating something then gone on to make a baseless statement yourself which I strongly suspect that you can't support. Jelf is, by normal standards, a wealthy Man and I'm pretty sure has sufficient cash to have covered the loan from MSP Capital, Higgs almost certainly had considerably more than £2.3m left over from selling his equity in Cowlin. So, as you've made a statement of fact, go on, demonstrate that those 2 individuals neither collectively nor individually had £2.3m.
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vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
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Post by vaughan on Aug 12, 2021 14:49:11 GMT
There is insinuation. You may not wish to see it, but the link between the programme and DS as an offshore company is deliberate. Read Swiss' second paragraph. My advice to him is consistent. There is enough to moan about without his "clever" sh*t-stirring. To be fair to Higgs, he didn't sell us down the river and Hamer did a lot of the leg-work. #boohiss. We were looking into the abyss when DS took us over as our "Gashead Directors" had no cash left to fund the losses, hence Wonga loan. In a single post you've lambasted Swiss for insinuating something then gone on to make a baseless statement yourself which I strongly suspect that you can't support. Jelf is, by normal standards, a wealthy Man and I'm pretty sure has sufficient cash to have covered the loan from MSP Capital, Higgs almost certainly had considerably more than £2.3m left over from selling his equity in Cowlin. So, as you've made a statement of fact, go on, demonstrate that those 2 individuals neither collectively nor individually had £2.3m. Yes, you are right. Higgs had the cash, but did not wish to spend any more of his money on funding the club. That's his prerogative and I don't hold that against him, as he sold to a buyer who was prepared to fund it. My point is: Football is a rich man's game. Higgs, Bradshaw, Dunford were not prepared to fund the losses ad infinitum and there are only so many players you can flog to plug the funding gaps. Of course, Wael is incompetent because he can't balance income and expenditure. In Swiss's time, we flogged both Martyn and Penrice during a promotion season. Try doing that in a social media age.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 15:00:03 GMT
In a single post you've lambasted Swiss for insinuating something then gone on to make a baseless statement yourself which I strongly suspect that you can't support. Jelf is, by normal standards, a wealthy Man and I'm pretty sure has sufficient cash to have covered the loan from MSP Capital, Higgs almost certainly had considerably more than £2.3m left over from selling his equity in Cowlin. So, as you've made a statement of fact, go on, demonstrate that those 2 individuals neither collectively nor individually had £2.3m. Yes, you are right. Higgs had the cash, but did not wish to spend any more of his money on funding the club. That's his prerogative and I don't hold that against him, as he sold to a buyer who was prepared to fund it. My point is: Football is a rich man's game. Higgs, Bradshaw, Dunford were not prepared to fund the losses ad infinitum and there are only so many players you can flog to plug the funding gaps. Of course, Wael is incompetent because he can't balance income and expenditure. In Swiss's time, we flogged both Martyn and Penrice during a promotion season. Try doing that in a social media age. I'm pretty certain that Geoff was sat on £2m, and quite confident that Jeff is worth considerably more. My reading of it was that the other Directors had had enough of the Sainsbury's battle and no longer wanted to fund what they saw as a lost cause, Higgs took the decision to fund it via a high interest loan in an ultimately futile attempt to put pressure on Sainsbury's. But that's pure speculation, I have zero inside information. The loan wasn't to cover losses, it was for legal costs wasn't it? Moving on to what you would get away with in today's 'social media' age, I think that in the same circumstance, if we were literally bankrupt a couple of years previously and were playing in a 6th or 7th tier ground, the support base would see that the incoming funds were required to secure the short term future of the club. Who knows Vaughan, we may be able to make a direct comparison in the not too distant future
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Post by swissgas on Aug 12, 2021 15:13:57 GMT
I shall have to invest in a copy of "A duffers guide to keeping your agenda hidden" Because bloogas and vaughan see through my posts every time
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vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
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Post by vaughan on Aug 12, 2021 15:21:12 GMT
Yes, you are right. Higgs had the cash, but did not wish to spend any more of his money on funding the club. That's his prerogative and I don't hold that against him, as he sold to a buyer who was prepared to fund it. My point is: Football is a rich man's game. Higgs, Bradshaw, Dunford were not prepared to fund the losses ad infinitum and there are only so many players you can flog to plug the funding gaps. Of course, Wael is incompetent because he can't balance income and expenditure. In Swiss's time, we flogged both Martyn and Penrice during a promotion season. Try doing that in a social media age. I'm pretty certain that Geoff was sat on £2m, and quite confident that Jeff is worth considerably more. My reading of it was that the other Directors had had enough of the Sainsbury's battle and no longer wanted to fund what they saw as a lost cause, Higgs took the decision to fund it via a high interest loan in an ultimately futile attempt to put pressure on Sainsbury's. But that's pure speculation, I have zero inside information. The loan wasn't to cover losses, it was for legal costs wasn't it? Moving on to what you would get away with in today's 'social media' age, I think that in the same circumstance, if we were literally bankrupt a couple of years previously and were playing in a 6th or 7th tier ground, the support base would see that the incoming funds were required to secure the short term future of the club. Who knows Vaughan, we may be able to make a direct comparison in the not too distant future Going over old ground, but one of my frustrations is that he has not tapped into supporters' good will to fund drastically required ground improvements at the Mem, perhaps even on a 1:1 ratio. The Training Ground is very important, but the ramshackle state of Mem makes me depressed. Maybe, we can ask Joey for a loan when he sells his house in Kew?
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Post by swissgas on Aug 12, 2021 15:54:24 GMT
In a single post you've lambasted Swiss for insinuating something then gone on to make a baseless statement yourself which I strongly suspect that you can't support. Jelf is, by normal standards, a wealthy Man and I'm pretty sure has sufficient cash to have covered the loan from MSP Capital, Higgs almost certainly had considerably more than £2.3m left over from selling his equity in Cowlin. So, as you've made a statement of fact, go on, demonstrate that those 2 individuals neither collectively nor individually had £2.3m. Yes, you are right. Higgs had the cash, but did not wish to spend any more of his money on funding the club. That's his prerogative and I don't hold that against him, as he sold to a buyer who was prepared to fund it. My point is: Football is a rich man's game. Higgs, Bradshaw, Dunford were not prepared to fund the losses ad infinitum and there are only so many players you can flog to plug the funding gaps. Of course, Wael is incompetent because he can't balance income and expenditure. In Swiss's time, we flogged both Martyn and Penrice during a promotion season. Try doing that in a social media age. Surely I don't have to defend myself again for being a very small part of the team of people which successfully guided Rovers to Championship level while selling players for millions and laying the financial foundations which enabled us to buy the Mem ? But since you have brought up the subject of Rovers offshore ownership, which is a bit murky because Hani is still giving commitments to Rovers auditors, perhaps you can answer this. You've said yourself that Wael is incompetent because he can't balance income and expenditure and he can't get his managerial appointments right so do you think he would be competent enough to act in Rovers best interests if a predatory approach was made by someone like Samuelson, McKay or Stephen Vaughan Snr.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 16:30:58 GMT
I'm pretty certain that Geoff was sat on £2m, and quite confident that Jeff is worth considerably more. My reading of it was that the other Directors had had enough of the Sainsbury's battle and no longer wanted to fund what they saw as a lost cause, Higgs took the decision to fund it via a high interest loan in an ultimately futile attempt to put pressure on Sainsbury's. But that's pure speculation, I have zero inside information. The loan wasn't to cover losses, it was for legal costs wasn't it? Moving on to what you would get away with in today's 'social media' age, I think that in the same circumstance, if we were literally bankrupt a couple of years previously and were playing in a 6th or 7th tier ground, the support base would see that the incoming funds were required to secure the short term future of the club. Who knows Vaughan, we may be able to make a direct comparison in the not too distant future Going over old ground, but one of my frustrations is that he has not tapped into supporters' good will to fund drastically required ground improvements at the Mem, perhaps even on a 1:1 ratio. The Training Ground is very important, but the ramshackle state of Mem makes me depressed. Maybe, we can ask Joey for a loan when he sells his house in Kew? To be fair, you introduced the finances around Higgs and his board as a topic of discussion today. But I agree, with the Share Scheme riding high the opportunity was there to expand into 'sister' schemes, possibly solely aimed at stadium development. I'm guessing that as not much goes under your radar, the FC's little swipe at the SS a couple of weeks back where they mentioned the amount raised by Helpline didn't pass you by? Anyway, what next? I've never know relations between the FC and the SC to be this bad, whether you agree with how the SC has been run or not it will still be regarded by a large body of people as a link into the FC and a source of information, so allowing the relationship to disintegrate in this way rather than offering Jim a helping hand looks like a mistake to me.
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vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
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Post by vaughan on Aug 12, 2021 16:41:58 GMT
Yes, you are right. Higgs had the cash, but did not wish to spend any more of his money on funding the club. That's his prerogative and I don't hold that against him, as he sold to a buyer who was prepared to fund it. My point is: Football is a rich man's game. Higgs, Bradshaw, Dunford were not prepared to fund the losses ad infinitum and there are only so many players you can flog to plug the funding gaps. Of course, Wael is incompetent because he can't balance income and expenditure. In Swiss's time, we flogged both Martyn and Penrice during a promotion season. Try doing that in a social media age. Surely I don't have to defend myself again for being a very small part of the team of people which successfully guided Rovers to Championship level while selling players for millions and laying the financial foundations which enabled us to buy the Mem ? But since you have brought up the subject of Rovers offshore ownership, which is a bit murky because Hani is still giving commitments to Rovers auditors, perhaps you can answer this. You've said yourself that Wael is incompetent because he can't balance income and expenditure and he can't get his managerial appointments right so do you think he would be competent enough to act in Rovers best interests if a predatory approach was made by someone like Samuelson, McKay or Stephen Vaughan Snr. How I laugh. I know who you are. You were a very small pawn in our Twerton days. You were not around when the Championship was won. The Board owe so much to Gerry Francis, so please don't bask in his glory, by making out that you were instrumental in the club's success. The truth is, when he left, none of it was sustainable. It was Rag-Bag Rovers at their imperial best, magnificently managed by Gerry. The deal with the Mem had nothing to do with you. Opportunity knocked. We took advantage of the sad plight that befell Bristol RFC and the £2.8 million mortgage was funded by directors who were paid back, plus significant interest above Commercial rates. We then spent nothing on the ground, until SC raised money for a roof.
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Post by gastower on Aug 12, 2021 16:54:55 GMT
Funded also by preference share holders some of whom,despite requests, have not been paid back
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Post by a more piratey game on Aug 12, 2021 18:29:58 GMT
Well worth spending an hour watching that programme and witnessing the type of person our previous owner spent time entertaining before securing a buyer. I know you're still very cross with him, but I think he did his best And we can't ask for more than that
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Post by swissgas on Aug 12, 2021 18:57:14 GMT
Surely I don't have to defend myself again for being a very small part of the team of people which successfully guided Rovers to Championship level while selling players for millions and laying the financial foundations which enabled us to buy the Mem ? But since you have brought up the subject of Rovers offshore ownership, which is a bit murky because Hani is still giving commitments to Rovers auditors, perhaps you can answer this. You've said yourself that Wael is incompetent because he can't balance income and expenditure and he can't get his managerial appointments right so do you think he would be competent enough to act in Rovers best interests if a predatory approach was made by someone like Samuelson, McKay or Stephen Vaughan Snr. How I laugh. I know who you are. You were a very small pawn in our Twerton days. You were not around when the Championship was won. The Board owe so much to Gerry Francis, so please don't bask in his glory, by making out that you were instrumental in the club's success. The truth is, when he left, none of it was sustainable. It was Rag-Bag Rovers at their imperial best, magnificently managed by Gerry. The deal with the Mem had nothing to do with you. Opportunity knocked. We took advantage of the sad plight that befell Bristol RFC and the £2.8 million mortgage was funded by directors who were paid back, plus significant interest above Commercial rates. We then spent nothing on the ground, until SC raised money for a roof. But you haven't answered the question ?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 19:03:56 GMT
Well worth spending an hour watching that programme and witnessing the type of person our previous owner spent time entertaining before securing a buyer. I know you're still very cross with him, but I think he did his best And we can't ask for more than that
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bondigas
Joined: December 2017
Posts: 393
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Post by bondigas on Aug 13, 2021 8:44:17 GMT
These offshore structures certainly are complicated.
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