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Post by droitwichgas on Jul 18, 2021 13:37:48 GMT
I did bring this up, on the other place, no one seemed at all bothered but I do think the nice Mr Wael has been taken in and has not been learning from past mistakes & in the evidence , from Fleetwood. I had been reading many of their pressers, post Barton and it certainly made for some interesting reading. They never name Barton but say they are, slowly, getting back on track after previous errors. What genuinely get to me is that there was a lot of proof of how the manager operates. This is not just the great reset but it’s a massive gamble. Poor Wael wants, needs to prove that relegation was just an accident, a mistake, bad luck and that he can put it all right in the blink of an eye. He probably could, by bringing in the right people, that would be people with a track record of getting things right. Of course it's entirely possible that Punchy will put together a squad that plays a brand of football that blows L2 away, but it's equally possible that he's under-estimated what a 'flat roof pub car park brawl' L2 actually is and we'll end up nearer the bottom than the top. Can you name any available managers this summer who have a record of getting relegated L1 clubs promoted at the first attempt? Any managerial appointment is a gamble, I sense if Wael has made the right choice he won't get any credit. Unless JB is really overpaying his recruits then he doesn't seem to be going on a massive spending spree, so far anyway. |
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kingswood Polak
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jul 18, 2021 13:47:30 GMT
I did bring this up, on the other place, no one seemed at all bothered but I do think the nice Mr Wael has been taken in and has not been learning from past mistakes & in the evidence , from Fleetwood. I had been reading many of their pressers, post Barton and it certainly made for some interesting reading. They never name Barton but say they are, slowly, getting back on track after previous errors. What genuinely get to me is that there was a lot of proof of how the manager operates. This is not just the great reset but it’s a massive gamble. Poor Wael wants, needs to prove that relegation was just an accident, a mistake, bad luck and that he can put it all right in the blink of an eye. He probably could, by bringing in the right people, that would be people with a track record of getting things right. Of course it's entirely possible that Punchy will put together a squad that plays a brand of football that blows L2 away, but it's equally possible that he's under-estimated what a 'flat roof pub car park brawl' L2 actually is and we'll end up nearer the bottom than the top. This is my main and biggest worry. I keep saying it’s a huge gamble as, if it goes wrong, what then ? No doubt I will be called negative but you have to look at all possibilities and not be so arrogant so as to think we will blow L2 away, some even saying we will reach 100 points. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 14:12:01 GMT
Poor Wael wants, needs to prove that relegation was just an accident, a mistake, bad luck and that he can put it all right in the blink of an eye. He probably could, by bringing in the right people, that would be people with a track record of getting things right. Of course it's entirely possible that Punchy will put together a squad that plays a brand of football that blows L2 away, but it's equally possible that he's under-estimated what a 'flat roof pub car park brawl' L2 actually is and we'll end up nearer the bottom than the top. Can you name any available managers this summer who have a record of getting relegated L1 clubs promoted at the first attempt? Any managerial appointment is a gamble, I sense if Wael has made the right choice he won't get any credit. Unless JB is really overpaying his recruits then he doesn't seem to be going on a massive spending spree, so far anyway. He hasn't made the right choice, regardless of what happens. The once good name of our club is now in the gutter, along with Barton's name. Edit. The mistake is compounded as Punchy was supposed to prevent us from getting relegated in the first place. |
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Post by droitwichgas on Jul 18, 2021 14:44:22 GMT
Outside of Bristol I doubt anyone really cares Barton's our manager, I can't recall Fleetwood's name was dragged into the gutter after they employed JB.
You really need to move on from JB's past record, as basically nobody really seems to care about it.
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Post by swissgas on Jul 18, 2021 16:15:38 GMT
I think what we are looking for financially is to not keep making the same mistakes. From the Fleetwood accounts it appears Barton told their owner that to achieve the success he desired he needed to bring in a completely different type of player and needed to be incurring staff costs of 7 million. But two and a half years later it wasn’t working and he was sacked. If you look at the four League 1 clubs I posted about the other day you can see that League 1 status and even play off positioning is possible with staff costs of much less than 7 million. The 2020 figures are Shrewsbury 4.3 million, Lincoln 5 million, AFC Wimbledon 3.6 million, Crewe Alexandra not specified but under 4 million. It looks very much as though Barton has continued with the same line as he adopted at Fleetwood. He has told Wael that virtually all of the squad was useless and needed to be replaced which has resulted in contracts having to be bought up, some contracted players having to be paid but not being part of the squad and a League 1 budget being needed to attract players of the quality he wants. Rovers don’t publish staff costs in the accounts any more but in 2018 it was 5.6 million. My guess is that it will be at least that in 21/22 and I think there is sufficient evidence to show that Rovers are making the same mistake as we have made before, and the same mistake which Fleetwood have made. We are paying too much in staff costs and have not put measures in place to ensure we get value for money. and, probably like we did under DC, it's easy to do that when you've just been promoted. The top 10(?) in L1 are usually, on average, the biggest spenders in that league Although Wael tried to cut the budget last season (possibly last January hence GC's departure?) and that hardly ended well? That’s true but the others are still League 1 clubs and Rovers are not. Looking at those top ten teams I found the clubs which we can compare with had staff costs which IMO would have been similar to Rovers. Peterborough 6.2 million, Blackpool 6.6 million and Lincoln 5 million. So the default response from Gasheads will be “you can’t blame Wael he gave us a competitive League 1 budget. Which is exactly the same response most fans gave when Nick Higgs was criticised by the likes of myself and Nick even justified his policy by saying “ I employ a manager and let him manage”. But by absolving the owners of responsibility we keep going around in circles and, as I’ve been saying for years, the only way to stop the constant underperformance is to manage the manager, make sure there is a defined strategy and get value for money. Since we are now in League 2 it might be useful to consider the financial performance of three of the four clubs promoted last season. Cheltenham made a profit of 500K and Cambridge and Morecambe each lost 300K. Rovers are literally in a different league now but to get out of it quickly we need to use our brains as well as our wallet. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 16:36:06 GMT
Outside of Bristol I doubt anyone really cares Barton's our manager, I can't recall Fleetwood's name was dragged into the gutter after they employed JB. You really need to move on from JB's past record, as basically nobody really seems to care about it. That's not what the comments on the BBC sports front page suggested on the day we had our relegation confirmed. There were plenty of people there stating that they were supporters of a variety of clubs who took the opportunity to voice their opinion of Barton, and it didn't make particularly pleasant reading. So you 'move on' if you want to, I'll keep my morals and dignity intact, but thanks anyway. Anyway, didn't you see the old thread that was dragged up dating back to when Barton first joined Fleetwood? Plenty of us had a lot to say, not one person wanted to 'give him another chance' or 'not judge him by past actions' when they employed him. #doublestandards |
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Post by droitwichgas on Jul 18, 2021 16:51:23 GMT
But only Lincoln made the playoffs last season out of those teams listed and, probably like we did under DC, it's easy to do that when you've just been promoted. The top 10(?) in L1 are usually, on average, the biggest spenders in that league Although Wael tried to cut the budget last season (possibly last January hence GC's departure?) and that hardly ended well? That’s true but the others are still League 1 clubs and Rovers are not. Looking at those top ten teams I found the clubs which we can compare with had staff costs which IMO would have been similar to Rovers. Peterborough 6.2 million, Blackpool 6.6 million and Lincoln 5 million. So the default response from Gasheads will be “you can’t blame Wael he gave us a competitive League 1 budget. Which is exactly the same response most fans gave when Nick Higgs was criticised by the likes of myself and Nick even justified his policy by saying “ I employ a manager and let him manage”. But by absolving the owners of responsibility we keep going around in circles and, as I’ve been saying for years, the only way to stop the constant underperformance is to manage the manager, make sure there is a defined strategy and get value for money. Since we are now in League 2 it might be useful to consider the financial performance of three of the four clubs promoted last season. Cheltenham made a profit of 500K and Cambridge and Morecambe each lost 300K. Rovers are literally in a different league now but to get out of it quickly we need to use our brains as well as our wallet. Wael's used his brain by employing Barton, whether it the right decision only time will tell. At the end of the day it's Wael's money, as it was NH's in the past, and he can spend it how he likes. Unless Gibson advises Wael should cut back on the spending, which seems unlikely if he was recommended by JB, you have to assume he'll continue in the same vain so you may as well get used to it. As fans who actually watch Rovers play rather than worry too much about our accounts we get to watch batter quality players (in theory!). |
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Post by Bath Gas on Jul 19, 2021 14:30:12 GMT
I agree the overall situation is not simple but the comparison of these figures is extremely simple and is a genuine measure. We are talking about actual income and how it is spent not a "what if" scenario. These clubs spend their income wisely, they create a team which is competitive enough to stay in League 1 and they provide their supporters with reasonably comfortable facilities. If Rovers were able to serve 2000 meals per game and boosted revenue proportionately or if the ground was brand new and very low maintenance, on the evidence we have, the club would waste the extra money through mismanagement. Incidentally, does the Mem have a current health & safety certificate ?
Are you suggesting that Bristol City Council have been lax in carrying out their statutory duties? If so, does Ashton Gate have a current health & safety certificate. Seems like you may have missed my above question swissgas |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2021 14:16:38 GMT
Outside of Bristol I doubt anyone really cares Barton's our manager, I can't recall Fleetwood's name was dragged into the gutter after they employed JB. You really need to move on from JB's past record, as basically nobody really seems to care about it. Sorry for the delay with this droitwich. These threads were dragged up when Punchy first arrived and show what Rovers' supporters thought about him before he came here. Then the majority really don't like him very much at all, now opinion is broadly divided. So it seems that the opinion of some changes when someone becomes associated with a club that they support. Interesting, don't you think? gaschat.co.uk/thread/14679/joey-barton-charged
gaschat.co.uk/thread/14205/joey-barton?page=1
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Post by swissgas on Jul 20, 2021 15:39:04 GMT
Are you suggesting that Bristol City Council have been lax in carrying out their statutory duties? If so, does Ashton Gate have a current health & safety certificate. Seems like you may have missed my above question swissgas No idea about Ashton Gate. I was responding to contradiction's point about the Mem being a costly place to maintain and wondering whether it has deteriorated during the 15 months it's been out of use causing the Safety Advisory Group to request work be carried out before issuing a certificate. |
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Post by swissgas on Jul 20, 2021 15:54:14 GMT
That’s true but the others are still League 1 clubs and Rovers are not. Looking at those top ten teams I found the clubs which we can compare with had staff costs which IMO would have been similar to Rovers. Peterborough 6.2 million, Blackpool 6.6 million and Lincoln 5 million. So the default response from Gasheads will be “you can’t blame Wael he gave us a competitive League 1 budget. Which is exactly the same response most fans gave when Nick Higgs was criticised by the likes of myself and Nick even justified his policy by saying “ I employ a manager and let him manage”. But by absolving the owners of responsibility we keep going around in circles and, as I’ve been saying for years, the only way to stop the constant underperformance is to manage the manager, make sure there is a defined strategy and get value for money. Since we are now in League 2 it might be useful to consider the financial performance of three of the four clubs promoted last season. Cheltenham made a profit of 500K and Cambridge and Morecambe each lost 300K. Rovers are literally in a different league now but to get out of it quickly we need to use our brains as well as our wallet. Wael's used his brain by employing Barton, whether it the right decision only time will tell. At the end of the day it's Wael's money, as it was NH's in the past, and he can spend it how he likes. Unless Gibson advises Wael should cut back on the spending, which seems unlikely if he was recommended by JB, you have to assume he'll continue in the same vain so you may as well get used to it. As fans who actually watch Rovers play rather than worry too much about our accounts we get to watch batter quality players (in theory!). We'll have to disagree about whether or not Wael used his brain and carefully considered all the available options before choosing Barton. But if the appointment was made primarily because he thought Barton gave Rovers the best chance of maintaining League 1 status then we know the outcome of that. Most Gasheads would love for Rovers to find a way of consistently performing to our potential and I think getting the business model right is the first step towards that. So carrying on with the failed strategy of "it's Wael's/Nick's money he can do what he likes" sounds a bit defeatist. |
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Post by Bath Gas on Jul 21, 2021 7:00:46 GMT
Seems like you may have missed my above question swissgas No idea about Ashton Gate. I was responding to contradiction's point about the Mem being a costly place to maintain and wondering whether it has deteriorated during the 15 months it's been out of use causing the Safety Advisory Group to request work be carried out before issuing a certificate. Thanks for the reply. Not sure what would have deteriorated, apart from normal wear and tear, which I would have thought would be addressed as a matter of course now that crowds are allowed back in. Are you stating a fact, or speculating that the SAG have requested work to be done and are not currently renewing the safety certificate? |
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jul 21, 2021 8:08:45 GMT
No idea about Ashton Gate. I was responding to contradiction's point about the Mem being a costly place to maintain and wondering whether it has deteriorated during the 15 months it's been out of use causing the Safety Advisory Group to request work be carried out before issuing a certificate. Thanks for the reply. Not sure what would have deteriorated, apart from normal wear and tear, which I would have thought would be addressed as a matter of course now that crowds are allowed back in. Are you stating a fact, or speculating that the SAG have requested work to be done and are not currently renewing the safety certificate? To be fair, swissgas is very careful not to confuse speculation with fact. In this case, it looks like the former. Mischievous speculation perhaps... |
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jul 21, 2021 9:10:04 GMT
No idea about Ashton Gate. I was responding to contradiction's point about the Mem being a costly place to maintain and wondering whether it has deteriorated during the 15 months it's been out of use causing the Safety Advisory Group to request work be carried out before issuing a certificate. Thanks for the reply. Not sure what would have deteriorated, apart from normal wear and tear, which I would have thought would be addressed as a matter of course now that crowds are allowed back in. Are you stating a fact, or speculating that the SAG have requested work to be done and are not currently renewing the safety certificate? If you are in the West stand then you, surely, must have experienced the rust and paint showers. Nothing that a bit of a rubdown abd new paint woukdnt fix though. The SW tent can seem a bit dodgy when we have gales and wind though. I have seen people leave due to that |
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Post by Bath Gas on Jul 21, 2021 15:43:17 GMT
Thanks for the reply. Not sure what would have deteriorated, apart from normal wear and tear, which I would have thought would be addressed as a matter of course now that crowds are allowed back in. Are you stating a fact, or speculating that the SAG have requested work to be done and are not currently renewing the safety certificate? To be fair, swissgas is very careful not to confuse speculation with fact. In this case, it looks like the former. Mischievous speculation perhaps... Hopefully swissgas will be along to clarify this soon. |
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Post by Bath Gas on Jul 21, 2021 15:45:26 GMT
Thanks for the reply. Not sure what would have deteriorated, apart from normal wear and tear, which I would have thought would be addressed as a matter of course now that crowds are allowed back in. Are you stating a fact, or speculating that the SAG have requested work to be done and are not currently renewing the safety certificate? If you are in the West stand then you, surely, must have experienced the rust and paint showers. Nothing that a bit of a rubdown abd new paint woukdnt fix though. The SW tent can seem a bit dodgy when we have gales and wind though. I have seen people leave due to that Not been in the West Stand for quite a while - sounds like I'd better wear a hat if I venture in there. Definitely quite a lot that could do with sprucing up around the ground, and a few extra guy ropes probably wouldn't go amiss. |
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Post by Bath Gas on Jul 23, 2021 10:22:36 GMT
No idea about Ashton Gate. I was responding to contradiction's point about the Mem being a costly place to maintain and wondering whether it has deteriorated during the 15 months it's been out of use causing the Safety Advisory Group to request work be carried out before issuing a certificate. Thanks for the reply. Not sure what would have deteriorated, apart from normal wear and tear, which I would have thought would be addressed as a matter of course now that crowds are allowed back in. Are you stating a fact, or speculating that the SAG have requested work to be done and are not currently renewing the safety certificate? Any chance you could clarify the above please swissgas? |
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Post by swissgas on Jul 23, 2021 17:01:33 GMT
Thanks for the reply. Not sure what would have deteriorated, apart from normal wear and tear, which I would have thought would be addressed as a matter of course now that crowds are allowed back in. Are you stating a fact, or speculating that the SAG have requested work to be done and are not currently renewing the safety certificate? Any chance you could clarify the above please swissgas ? I was wondering whether extra work needed to be done before a safety certificate was issued but if it did then that must have been taken care of because the match is going ahead tomorrow with spectators allowed in. |
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Post by Bath Gas on Jul 24, 2021 8:53:51 GMT
Any chance you could clarify the above please swissgas ? I was wondering whether extra work needed to be done before a safety certificate was issued but if it did then that must have been taken care of because the match is going ahead tomorrow with spectators allowed in. Thank you. Basically just negative speculation then - trying to plant yet another seed of doubt about the club. |
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