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Post by a more piratey game on Jul 16, 2021 9:33:51 GMT
It's helpful to read what people say before replying, you obviously don't, so go back and have another go. Now, why is it reasonable to assume that TicketMaster offer better value than our previous arrangement please? I'm done with this silliness for one day. See you in the morning and we'll do it some more, maybe.
Think we best draw a line under it, it will become repetitive.
You've made it clear that you cant substantiate your criticism, so lets leave it there but that would mean you having the last word. Which I cannot allow so let's leave it here
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 9:49:40 GMT
Think we best draw a line under it, it will become repetitive.
You've made it clear that you cant substantiate your criticism, so lets leave it there but that would mean you having the last word. Which I cannot allow so let's leave it here I'm sure Mr TWD will fix that
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Post by lostinspace on Jul 16, 2021 9:53:47 GMT
Let's just shut it down to finish the petty mindness, is it really that important đ¤
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Post by Bath Gas on Jul 16, 2021 10:56:47 GMT
Thanks for the rationale.
I dont think its nearly as simple as that though. Whats the circumstances of these clubs compared to BRFC? Especially regarding their stadiums. Wimbledon just built one, Shewsbsury had a new stadium a few years ago. Presume they have plenty of income generation opportunities in it, up to date tech, relatively little upkeep etc etc.
We play in a dump. Its unchanged for many years. Good example - matchday hospitality. We can serve 500 meals. Play Man U in the cup and its still 500 meals. A quick and easy example of our limitations. We are paying for the lack of development of the Mem for years, based on a promise of a new ground in the future.
Our outlay on ground maintenance very high, just to get a health & safety certificate to play in the bloody thing. Im pretty sure that was one of the drivers for the bars being done out.
Just some simple examples that its necessary to compare apples with apples
I agree the overall situation is not simple but the comparison of these figures is extremely simple and is a genuine measure. We are talking about actual income and how it is spent not a "what if" scenario. These clubs spend their income wisely, they create a team which is competitive enough to stay in League 1 and they provide their supporters with reasonably comfortable facilities. If Rovers were able to serve 2000 meals per game and boosted revenue proportionately or if the ground was brand new and very low maintenance, on the evidence we have, the club would waste the extra money through mismanagement. Incidentally, does the Mem have a current health & safety certificate ?
Are you suggesting that Bristol City Council have been lax in carrying out their statutory duties? If so, does Ashton Gate have a current health & safety certificate.
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jul 16, 2021 12:52:46 GMT
Thanks for confirming the status of the debt. I actually don't think we are a million miles apart in our assessment of where the Club is right now. It's a basket case. As are many others. I note that 8 Clubs are currently under EFL transfer embargoes, all I presume for financial irregularities. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57760968I think this is the thin end of the wedge and there will be others. I don't want Bristol Rovers to join them. Indeed Epping. Nor do I. But we (all of us I assume) also want to create ther best oppoutunity to progress. Both on and off the field. Which requires funding, and for the 'on the field' part, there is largely a 'going rate' to achieve it.
Hence so many clubs overspending/relying on owner funding, as in reality there is little choice, depending on club/fan ambition and expectation.
The sooner people understand that point there can be more grown up debate rather than sniping from the sidlines that cant be substantiated.
But I don't see it as sniping, I see it as (generally) polite constructive criticism. We should not be losing ÂŁ50,000 a week. Period. We have serious problems with decision-making at Board level and a total lack of any credible medium/long term business plan. If Wael wants to continue throwing ÂŁ50k a week down the toilet by listening to the yes men he has employed, then I guess that's his prerogative. I'd rather see a complete over-haul of the senior management team. I don't want Wael to continue to haemorrhage cash. He's a decent man, surrounded by fools.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 16, 2021 14:54:32 GMT
Indeed Epping. Nor do I. But we (all of us I assume) also want to create ther best oppoutunity to progress. Both on and off the field. Which requires funding, and for the 'on the field' part, there is largely a 'going rate' to achieve it.
Hence so many clubs overspending/relying on owner funding, as in reality there is little choice, depending on club/fan ambition and expectation.
The sooner people understand that point there can be more grown up debate rather than sniping from the sidlines that cant be substantiated.
But I don't see it as sniping, I see it as (generally) polite constructive criticism. We should not be losing ÂŁ50,000 a week. Period. We have serious problems with decision-making at Board level and a total lack of any credible medium/long term business plan. If Wael wants to continue throwing ÂŁ50k a week down the toilet by listening to the yes men he has employed, then I guess that's his prerogative. I'd rather see a complete over-haul of the senior management team. I don't want Wael to continue to haemorrhage cash. He's a decent man, surrounded by fools. I agree with both of you and thereâs little difference between both POV. I guess one manâs constructive criticism is anotherâs sniping. Whilst you can never compare directly it is important to do the benchmarking, comparing like for like, with other businesses in the same industry and thatâs why the figures swiss posted were a good starting point, imo. I just hope that someone in the club is looking at those comparisons. I suspect that most clubs will be having those conversations because as contradiction says there seems little choice at the moment but to rely on rich owners but then hope that honest, constructive conversations are going on about how to narrow the gap between income and expenditure. But looking at a few other forums they donât seem to go into the same detail as many on here do. We are fortunate (or not !! đ) to have a fairly in depth thread or two looking at the club finances. Others may disagree. Looking at the big picture stuff Iâd suggest the EFL is very concerned and their attempts to limit the squad numbers and the wages of players last summer again seemed a good starting point but the vested interests of the Players Union stopped part of that. With the team being so poor last season weâve had an overhaul of the playing team and fingers crossed it will turn out to be much better this season. Given that weâve been making such huge losses then it would seem to be sensible to be looking at the non-playing side as well. But Iâd guess that with the whole epidemic it has just destroyed all lower league clubsâ finances and that prior to it Wael etc. had looked at a plan to make us more sustainable. Unfortunately he chose Ben G to do that with younger players leaving us where we are. (Btw, we had plenty of experience so I donât blame the younger players for what happened.) I wouldnât, for example, include Gorringe amongst the âfools surroundingâ Wael because I just donât know enough about what Commercial stuff heâs done. It hasnât been itemised in accounts has it? He may have been doing a very good job. But epping may be including him, I donât know. But each time I look at news in the lower leagues I say a little thank you to Wael for doing what he does for BRFC. Just imagine had we had the successive owners that Bury FC had or the current owner of Swindon. You could add the former owners of Northampton, Macclesfield or even Wigan ( the one that put them into admin two days after buying them, not Dave Whelan) to that list. At least we seem to have an honourable and honest owner who is doing his best for BRFC. Yes I know it is an old fashioned concept but an important one nonetheless. I guess the bottom line is that someone somewhere in the club needs to be looking at how to do the balance between having a competitive playing squad and not making the huge losses we are. Given that itâs Waelâs money for his sake I hope he is. UTG!
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Post by droitwichgas on Jul 16, 2021 18:21:57 GMT
As far as the "non-playing side" there seems no logic in the number of employees increasing by around 25% if Wael is trying to cut costs, as far as the 5 clubs you list, only two of them, Bury and Macclesfield have gone under, Northampton still have a better ground than us and Wigan look like L1 promotion contenders, Swindon could also come out of this OK, but there's 46 lower league clubs not just half a dozen poorly run ones to compare ourselves with.
I sense we'd all love know what Wael's long term, 5 to 10 years, vision is of the club and how he can continue to fund us during that period, perhaps we'll get the chance to ask him if we do have a fans forum.
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Post by droitwichgas on Jul 16, 2021 18:30:50 GMT
Epping A large chunk of the debt has gone, that's what the capitalisation does, it converts the it to shares. It has gone, it has ceased to be. However much anyone wants to use the 'debt' figure against Wael they can no longer do so (not saying you are doing that but some will). We are no longer ÂŁ23m in debt and this will show in the next accounts (as per the note in the accounts just published) You could call it a 'reset'. or perhaps 'Year Zero'. Debt will 'commence' being run up again from that point though (it already has and you can work it out based on 50k a week loss) as we know that the club is operating at a loss as are 99% of other clubs. Some people seem to think we re a 'basket case' for losing 50k per week but if thats true then nearly all other clubs are too. For example- MK Dons lost ÂŁ63k per week, Charlton 100k per week. The list is endless. And practically all of them have better grounds than Rovers with better income generating opportunities. Basket cases, all of them, obviously. (we know some really are) The model of funding clubs is broken. Its madness, no other business does this, but football is not any old business. Its exists for the Lee Brown moment (or equivilent) which all clubs are trying to get to. It doesn't actually exist to make a profit as its primary aim. There is no pitch invasion from the fans for breaking even. We know the club were trying to become more sustainable before Covid, with some limited success, but remember that if Rovers really did try and operate in a break even way in the current circumstances of operating a ground that is hardly fit for purpose it would likely need : Huge reduction in wages, a non competitive team, a squad of say 18 being paid peanuts (remember it must be " what we can afford") No development squad, no academy (no future?) Limited support staff (forget scouting the opposition, unless Joey does that as well as training etc, as he wouldn't have any coaches) Limited scouting for recruitment Even worse facilities at the Mem for the supporters (maintenance costs at the Mem are very high due to its age, high expenditure is necessary to get annual health & safety licence) And thats only part of it, you get the picture. But we may break even if we did the above, few would bother to attend though as we finished mid table in Conference South (at which point one or two people could carry WAQ down Glos Road for breaking even) This is the reality that owners of football clubs have to deal with and we as fans need to appreciate more. Until the model changes clubs are reliant on the owners to fund losses, as the alternative is the bleak picture above. WAQ has to balance the above with the need for a competitive team which requires giving a manager the best chance to do so, and the expectation of fans (rightly so) to do well and aim high. What the club is clearly trying to do is control costs through better value contracts and increasing income where it can (ticketing, retail outsourcing, bars development but it has very limited options whilst at the Mem) and try and get a competitive team, which will ensure crowds are decent, with some players sold on at a profit and aid sustainability. Not a lot more can be done unless/until a new stadium Wael would only ever get his money back on selling the club, if a potential buyer was prepared to pay the value he put on it. One challenge for the accountants on here could be to try to create a pretend break even budget for the club and see what they were up against Thanks for confirming the status of the debt. I actually don't think we are a million miles apart in our assessment of where the Club is right now. It's a basket case. As are many others. I note that 8 Clubs are currently under EFL transfer embargoes, all I presume for financial irregularities. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57760968I think this is the thin end of the wedge and there will be others. I don't want Bristol Rovers to join them. If you look at the EFL website that's all a bit of a red herring, as the clubs are only under an embargo due to the fact they accepted a COVID loan and one of the conditions was that they'd agree to a transfer embargo, although the embargo just means that they can't pay transfer fees, which seem a thing of the past anyway. As things stand no clubs seem under severe financial pressure this summer, assuming Swindon can resolve their ownership issues amicably.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 16, 2021 20:54:57 GMT
As far as the "non-playing side" there seems no logic in the number of employees increasing by around 25% if Wael is trying to cut costs, as far as the 5 clubs you list, only two of them, Bury and Macclesfield have gone under, Northampton still have a better ground than us and Wigan look like L1 promotion contenders, Swindon could also come out of this OK, but there's 46 lower league clubs not just half a dozen poorly run ones to compare ourselves with. I sense we'd all love know what Wael's long term, 5 to 10 years, vision is of the club and how he can continue to fund us during that period, perhaps we'll get the chance to ask him if we do have a fans forum. droitwich I think your reply was in response to me, but I may be wrong if so I apologise. Yes, Northampton may have a better ground to us but it puts a glass ceiling on what level they will ever play at imo. And I was talking more about the current fraudulent case regarding their former chairman over the building of the hotel. I was in all those 5 clubs thinking that their chairmen were people who sailed very close to the wind regarding the way they ran their clubs. Lee Power has more or less stopped paying for the club to continue, hence the current takeover, the Bury FC last two chairmen appeared to just see the club as a money making operation and when it ceased to be that (if it ever was) they got out, leaving the club out of the EFL. Macclesfield were run into the ground and players were often not paid and they went to the wall ignored by an absent owner. In Wiganâs case the owner bought them and put them into administration very soon after. Yes you are right Wigan may come out of it fairly well but when it started they were mid/lower Championship when taken over and were very fortunate to avoid being relegated again last season. That theyâve survived is good for them but were endangered by a person who Iâd not want associated with BRFC. And yes Swindon May come out of this ok, but I think that remains to be seen. And youâre correct droitwich there are several clubs we could compare ourselves with as Iâve said in several posts posts in this thread. I wasnât comparing us as a club against those 5 I was comparing our owner against the owners of those clubs and imo he comes out, compared to the owners of those 5 clubs as a very, very good owner. Perhaps heâs been let down by others as epping has suggested. But Iâm very glad we have WAQ and not the owners of those 5 clubs. And I fully agree with your final paragraph. UTG!
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jul 17, 2021 9:20:46 GMT
But I don't see it as sniping, I see it as (generally) polite constructive criticism. We should not be losing ÂŁ50,000 a week. Period. We have serious problems with decision-making at Board level and a total lack of any credible medium/long term business plan. If Wael wants to continue throwing ÂŁ50k a week down the toilet by listening to the yes men he has employed, then I guess that's his prerogative. I'd rather see a complete over-haul of the senior management team. I don't want Wael to continue to haemorrhage cash. He's a decent man, surrounded by fools. I agree with both of you and thereâs little difference between both POV. I guess one manâs constructive criticism is anotherâs sniping. Whilst you can never compare directly it is important to do the benchmarking, comparing like for like, with other businesses in the same industry and thatâs why the figures swiss posted were a good starting point, imo. I just hope that someone in the club is looking at those comparisons. I suspect that most clubs will be having those conversations because as contradiction says there seems little choice at the moment but to rely on rich owners but then hope that honest, constructive conversations are going on about how to narrow the gap between income and expenditure. But looking at a few other forums they donât seem to go into the same detail as many on here do. We are fortunate (or not !! đ) to have a fairly in depth thread or two looking at the club finances. Others may disagree. Looking at the big picture stuff Iâd suggest the EFL is very concerned and their attempts to limit the squad numbers and the wages of players last summer again seemed a good starting point but the vested interests of the Players Union stopped part of that. With the team being so poor last season weâve had an overhaul of the playing team and fingers crossed it will turn out to be much better this season. Given that weâve been making such huge losses then it would seem to be sensible to be looking at the non-playing side as well. But Iâd guess that with the whole epidemic it has just destroyed all lower league clubsâ finances and that prior to it Wael etc. had looked at a plan to make us more sustainable. Unfortunately he chose Ben G to do that with younger players leaving us where we are. (Btw, we had plenty of experience so I donât blame the younger players for what happened.) I wouldnât, for example, include Gorringe amongst the âfools surroundingâ Wael because I just donât know enough about what Commercial stuff heâs done. It hasnât been itemised in accounts has it? He may have been doing a very good job. But epping may be including him, I donât know. But each time I look at news in the lower leagues I say a little thank you to Wael for doing what he does for BRFC. Just imagine had we had the successive owners that Bury FC had or the current owner of Swindon. You could add the former owners of Northampton, Macclesfield or even Wigan ( the one that put them into admin two days after buying them, not Dave Whelan) to that list. At least we seem to have an honourable and honest owner who is doing his best for BRFC. Yes I know it is an old fashioned concept but an important one nonetheless. I guess the bottom line is that someone somewhere in the club needs to be looking at how to do the balance between having a competitive playing squad and not making the huge losses we are. Given that itâs Waelâs money for his sake I hope he is. UTG! I think we are in general agreement. Particularly with your last paragraph. 5 1/2 years from the take-over, and we do not appear to be addressing that issue. We also do not appear to have any prospect of a new stadium. So when I said "fools", let's look at the main protagonists one at a time. Wael Al-Qadi. A decent man, out of his depth, who needs help. Martyn Starnes. I have no idea what he brings to the Club. Karim Mardam-Bey. I have no idea what he contributes to the Club. But he's Wael's BFF, so that's OK then. Tommy Widdrington. An epic failure in recruitment. Rewarded with promotion to the Board, and shoulders most of the blame for our relegation to League 2. Joseph Barton. I think I have made my opinion of this divisive, volatile character perfectly clear. Chris Gibson. Not here long enough to judge. Tom Gorringe. Has done a good job on the commercial side IMHO. Adam Tutton. Is doing fantastic work for the Community Trust. So it's not all bad. Just mostly. And we do not have a cunning plan.
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kingswood Polak
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jul 17, 2021 10:44:13 GMT
I agree with both of you and thereâs little difference between both POV. I guess one manâs constructive criticism is anotherâs sniping. Whilst you can never compare directly it is important to do the benchmarking, comparing like for like, with other businesses in the same industry and thatâs why the figures swiss posted were a good starting point, imo. I just hope that someone in the club is looking at those comparisons. I suspect that most clubs will be having those conversations because as contradiction says there seems little choice at the moment but to rely on rich owners but then hope that honest, constructive conversations are going on about how to narrow the gap between income and expenditure. But looking at a few other forums they donât seem to go into the same detail as many on here do. We are fortunate (or not !! đ) to have a fairly in depth thread or two looking at the club finances. Others may disagree. Looking at the big picture stuff Iâd suggest the EFL is very concerned and their attempts to limit the squad numbers and the wages of players last summer again seemed a good starting point but the vested interests of the Players Union stopped part of that. With the team being so poor last season weâve had an overhaul of the playing team and fingers crossed it will turn out to be much better this season. Given that weâve been making such huge losses then it would seem to be sensible to be looking at the non-playing side as well. But Iâd guess that with the whole epidemic it has just destroyed all lower league clubsâ finances and that prior to it Wael etc. had looked at a plan to make us more sustainable. Unfortunately he chose Ben G to do that with younger players leaving us where we are. (Btw, we had plenty of experience so I donât blame the younger players for what happened.) I wouldnât, for example, include Gorringe amongst the âfools surroundingâ Wael because I just donât know enough about what Commercial stuff heâs done. It hasnât been itemised in accounts has it? He may have been doing a very good job. But epping may be including him, I donât know. But each time I look at news in the lower leagues I say a little thank you to Wael for doing what he does for BRFC. Just imagine had we had the successive owners that Bury FC had or the current owner of Swindon. You could add the former owners of Northampton, Macclesfield or even Wigan ( the one that put them into admin two days after buying them, not Dave Whelan) to that list. At least we seem to have an honourable and honest owner who is doing his best for BRFC. Yes I know it is an old fashioned concept but an important one nonetheless. I guess the bottom line is that someone somewhere in the club needs to be looking at how to do the balance between having a competitive playing squad and not making the huge losses we are. Given that itâs Waelâs money for his sake I hope he is. UTG! I think we are in general agreement. Particularly with your last paragraph. 5 1/2 years from the take-over, and we do not appear to be addressing that issue. We also do not appear to have any prospect of a new stadium. So when I said "fools", let's look at the main protagonists one at a time. Wael Al-Qadi. A decent man, out of his depth, who needs help. Martyn Starnes. I have no idea what he brings to the Club. Karim Mardam-Bey. I have no idea what he contributes to the Club. But he's Wael's BFF, so that's OK then. Tommy Widdrington. An epic failure in recruitment. Rewarded with promotion to the Board, and shoulders most of the blame for our relegation to League 2. Joseph Barton. I think I have made my opinion of this divisive, volatile character perfectly clear. Chris Gibson. Not here long enough to judge. Tom Gorringe. Has done a good job on the commercial side IMHO. Adam Tutton. Is doing fantastic work for the Community Trust. So it's not all bad. Just mostly. And we do not have a cunning plan. At first I laughed at the cunning plan comment but it really is as you say. I was fine with evolution, not revolution but it looks like we are now, basically, taking the biggest of gambles. As a pay on the day fan, the decision to go has been taken away from me. I will have to be prodded to go now but I can still have beers, before and after and there are a group who plan to do just that .
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Post by swissgas on Jul 17, 2021 16:20:42 GMT
Looking at the last three years Fleetwood Town accounts we can get a feel for what happened in the thirty one months JB was there.
2018. 2019. 2020
Income. Millions) 6.388 5.478. 4.398
Loss. 0.094. 6.045. 4.856.
Staff Cost. 7.121. 7.014. 7.090
The loss for 2020 would have been 5.75 million but for a 719k government grant
My interpretation of events is that in February 2018 Andy Pilley was disappointed Fleetwood had not achieved the success he hoped for even though they had achieved a fourth placed finish and player sales had reduced 2018 losses to 94k. He thought Barton was the man to do it so his comment when he signed the 2019 accounts in March 2020 was â Joey Barton is an exciting appointment showing our commitment to sporting success and sustainabilityâ. We know that soon after arriving Barton signed a number of players from Premier League and Championship clubs which would have increased the playing cost and this is confirmed by the accounts. Staff numbers fell which would be expected when turnover reduced by 30% but but the total cost remained constant indicating higher individual wage cost which would IMO be playing contracts. When you couple this with no major player sales during Bartonâs tenure, no promotion, and the likelihood of Andy Pilley being told âyou donât know what you are doing Iâm bringing Col Gibson in to sort it outâ and you can see that picking fights with players probably wasnât the only reason he was sacked. The Fleetwood owners comment in the 2020 accounts signed in June 2021 was a rather lukewarm â Joey Barton remained as the manager of the team leading the club to a sixth place finishâ
As always the question is â how can we learn from this ?â
But it seems that question hasnât been asked because the manager has demanded and been given a completely free hand and news has already been leaked that he apparently has a League 1 budget. Once again Gasheads are being seduced by money when I should have thought by now the penny would have dropped that money doesnât bring success if you pour it down a drain. Wouldnât it make more sense to have a League 2 budget but make sure it is spent wisely ?
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Post by laughinggas on Jul 17, 2021 17:30:16 GMT
Looking at the last three years Fleetwood Town accounts we can get a feel for what happened in the thirty one months JB was there. 2018. 2019. 2020 Income. Millions) 6.388 5.478. 4.398 Loss. 0.094. 6.045. 4.856. Staff Cost. 7.121. 7.014. 7.090 The loss for 2020 would have been 5.75 million but for a 719k government grant My interpretation of events is that in February 2018 Andy Pilley was disappointed Fleetwood had not achieved the success he hoped for even though they had achieved a fourth placed finish and player sales had reduced 2018 losses to 94k. He thought Barton was the man to do it so his comment when he signed the 2019 accounts in March 2020 was â Joey Barton is an exciting appointment showing our commitment to sporting success and sustainabilityâ. We know that soon after arriving Barton signed a number of players from Premier League and Championship clubs which would have increased the playing cost and this is confirmed by the accounts. Staff numbers fell which would be expected when turnover reduced by 30% but but the total cost remained constant indicating higher individual wage cost which would IMO be playing contracts. When you couple this with no major player sales during Bartonâs tenure, no promotion, and the likelihood of Andy Pilley being told âyou donât know what you are doing Iâm bringing Col Gibson in to sort it outâ and you can see that picking fights with players probably wasnât the only reason he was sacked. The Fleetwood owners comment in the 2020 accounts signed in June 2021 was a rather lukewarm â Joey Barton remained as the manager of the team leading the club to a sixth place finishâ As always the question is â how can we learn from this ?â But it seems that question hasnât been asked because the manager has demanded and been given a completely free hand and news has already been leaked that he apparently has a League 1 budget. Once again Gasheads are being seduced by money when I should have thought by now the penny would have dropped that money doesnât bring success if you pour it down a drain. Wouldnât it make more sense to have a League 2 budget but make sure it is spent wisely ? What's been spent so far? Are we above or below budget on wages? Please keep it simple for me in explaining what we are looking like this season financially.
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Post by a more piratey game on Jul 17, 2021 18:08:36 GMT
Looking at the last three years Fleetwood Town accounts we can get a feel for what happened in the thirty one months JB was there. 2018. 2019. 2020 Income. Millions) 6.388 5.478. 4.398 Loss. 0.094. 6.045. 4.856. Staff Cost. 7.121. 7.014. 7.090 The loss for 2020 would have been 5.75 million but for a 719k government grant My interpretation of events is that in February 2018 Andy Pilley was disappointed Fleetwood had not achieved the success he hoped for even though they had achieved a fourth placed finish and player sales had reduced 2018 losses to 94k. He thought Barton was the man to do it so his comment when he signed the 2019 accounts in March 2020 was â Joey Barton is an exciting appointment showing our commitment to sporting success and sustainabilityâ. We know that soon after arriving Barton signed a number of players from Premier League and Championship clubs which would have increased the playing cost and this is confirmed by the accounts. Staff numbers fell which would be expected when turnover reduced by 30% but but the total cost remained constant indicating higher individual wage cost which would IMO be playing contracts. When you couple this with no major player sales during Bartonâs tenure, no promotion, and the likelihood of Andy Pilley being told âyou donât know what you are doing Iâm bringing Col Gibson in to sort it outâ and you can see that picking fights with players probably wasnât the only reason he was sacked. The Fleetwood owners comment in the 2020 accounts signed in June 2021 was a rather lukewarm â Joey Barton remained as the manager of the team leading the club to a sixth place finishâ As always the question is â how can we learn from this ?â But it seems that question hasnât been asked because the manager has demanded and been given a completely free hand and news has already been leaked that he apparently has a League 1 budget. Once again Gasheads are being seduced by money when I should have thought by now the penny would have dropped that money doesnât bring success if you pour it down a drain. Wouldnât it make more sense to have a League 2 budget but make sure it is spent wisely ? well, that all seems very prescient. Epping, can you pin this, and we'll find out as The Great (or Not-so-Great) Reset proceeds?
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Post by swissgas on Jul 17, 2021 18:28:49 GMT
Looking at the last three years Fleetwood Town accounts we can get a feel for what happened in the thirty one months JB was there. 2018. 2019. 2020 Income. Millions) 6.388 5.478. 4.398 Loss. 0.094. 6.045. 4.856. Staff Cost. 7.121. 7.014. 7.090 The loss for 2020 would have been 5.75 million but for a 719k government grant My interpretation of events is that in February 2018 Andy Pilley was disappointed Fleetwood had not achieved the success he hoped for even though they had achieved a fourth placed finish and player sales had reduced 2018 losses to 94k. He thought Barton was the man to do it so his comment when he signed the 2019 accounts in March 2020 was â Joey Barton is an exciting appointment showing our commitment to sporting success and sustainabilityâ. We know that soon after arriving Barton signed a number of players from Premier League and Championship clubs which would have increased the playing cost and this is confirmed by the accounts. Staff numbers fell which would be expected when turnover reduced by 30% but but the total cost remained constant indicating higher individual wage cost which would IMO be playing contracts. When you couple this with no major player sales during Bartonâs tenure, no promotion, and the likelihood of Andy Pilley being told âyou donât know what you are doing Iâm bringing Col Gibson in to sort it outâ and you can see that picking fights with players probably wasnât the only reason he was sacked. The Fleetwood owners comment in the 2020 accounts signed in June 2021 was a rather lukewarm â Joey Barton remained as the manager of the team leading the club to a sixth place finishâ As always the question is â how can we learn from this ?â But it seems that question hasnât been asked because the manager has demanded and been given a completely free hand and news has already been leaked that he apparently has a League 1 budget. Once again Gasheads are being seduced by money when I should have thought by now the penny would have dropped that money doesnât bring success if you pour it down a drain. Wouldnât it make more sense to have a League 2 budget but make sure it is spent wisely ? What's been spent so far? Are we above or below budget on wages? Please keep it simple for me in explaining what we are looking like this season financially. I think what we are looking for financially is to not keep making the same mistakes. From the Fleetwood accounts it appears Barton told their owner that to achieve the success he desired he needed to bring in a completely different type of player and needed to be incurring staff costs of 7 million. But two and a half years later it wasnât working and he was sacked. If you look at the four League 1 clubs I posted about the other day you can see that League 1 status and even play off positioning is possible with staff costs of much less than 7 million. The 2020 figures are Shrewsbury 4.3 million, Lincoln 5 million, AFC Wimbledon 3.6 million, Crewe Alexandra not specified but under 4 million. It looks very much as though Barton has continued with the same line as he adopted at Fleetwood. He has told Wael that virtually all of the squad was useless and needed to be replaced which has resulted in contracts having to be bought up, some contracted players having to be paid but not being part of the squad and a League 1 budget being needed to attract players of the quality he wants. Rovers donât publish staff costs in the accounts any more but in 2018 it was 5.6 million. My guess is that it will be at least that in 21/22 and I think there is sufficient evidence to show that Rovers are making the same mistake as we have made before, and the same mistake which Fleetwood have made. We are paying too much in staff costs and have not put measures in place to ensure we get value for money.
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Post by laughinggas on Jul 17, 2021 18:57:25 GMT
Thought two of the contracts were terminated so they could join Gillingham. Thought their embargo meant only out of contracts could be signed. Have not double checked this.
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Post by chelt_gas on Jul 17, 2021 23:32:15 GMT
How does Barton identify the players he wants and then ultimately sign?
They are almost all northern. Do they have the same agents, are they part of some WhatsApp group shared with coaches/scouts?
Just interested in the mechanics of how players get signed.
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Post by droitwichgas on Jul 18, 2021 7:17:00 GMT
What's been spent so far? Are we above or below budget on wages? Please keep it simple for me in explaining what we are looking like this season financially. I think what we are looking for financially is to not keep making the same mistakes. From the Fleetwood accounts it appears Barton told their owner that to achieve the success he desired he needed to bring in a completely different type of player and needed to be incurring staff costs of 7 million. But two and a half years later it wasnât working and he was sacked. If you look at the four League 1 clubs I posted about the other day you can see that League 1 status and even play off positioning is possible with staff costs of much less than 7 million. The 2020 figures are Shrewsbury 4.3 million, Lincoln 5 million, AFC Wimbledon 3.6 million, Crewe Alexandra not specified but under 4 million. It looks very much as though Barton has continued with the same line as he adopted at Fleetwood. He has told Wael that virtually all of the squad was useless and needed to be replaced which has resulted in contracts having to be bought up, some contracted players having to be paid but not being part of the squad and a League 1 budget being needed to attract players of the quality he wants. Rovers donât publish staff costs in the accounts any more but in 2018 it was 5.6 million. My guess is that it will be at least that in 21/22 and I think there is sufficient evidence to show that Rovers are making the same mistake as we have made before, and the same mistake which Fleetwood have made. We are paying too much in staff costs and have not put measures in place to ensure we get value for money. But only Lincoln made the playoffs last season out of those teams listed and, probably like we did under DC, it's easy to do that when you've just been promoted. The top 10(?) in L1 are usually, on average, the biggest spenders in that league Although Wael tried to cut the budget last season (possibly last January hence GC's departure?) and that hardly ended well?
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,353
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jul 18, 2021 9:47:31 GMT
What's been spent so far? Are we above or below budget on wages? Please keep it simple for me in explaining what we are looking like this season financially. I think what we are looking for financially is to not keep making the same mistakes. From the Fleetwood accounts it appears Barton told their owner that to achieve the success he desired he needed to bring in a completely different type of player and needed to be incurring staff costs of 7 million. But two and a half years later it wasnât working and he was sacked. If you look at the four League 1 clubs I posted about the other day you can see that League 1 status and even play off positioning is possible with staff costs of much less than 7 million. The 2020 figures are Shrewsbury 4.3 million, Lincoln 5 million, AFC Wimbledon 3.6 million, Crewe Alexandra not specified but under 4 million. It looks very much as though Barton has continued with the same line as he adopted at Fleetwood. He has told Wael that virtually all of the squad was useless and needed to be replaced which has resulted in contracts having to be bought up, some contracted players having to be paid but not being part of the squad and a League 1 budget being needed to attract players of the quality he wants. Rovers donât publish staff costs in the accounts any more but in 2018 it was 5.6 million. My guess is that it will be at least that in 21/22 and I think there is sufficient evidence to show that Rovers are making the same mistake as we have made before, and the same mistake which Fleetwood have made. We are paying too much in staff costs and have not put measures in place to ensure we get value for money. I did bring this up, on the other place, no one seemed at all bothered but I do think the nice Mr Wael has been taken in and has not been learning from past mistakes & in the evidence , from Fleetwood. I had been reading many of their pressers, post Barton and it certainly made for some interesting reading. They never name Barton but say they are, slowly, getting back on track after previous errors. What genuinely get to me is that there was a lot of proof of how the manager operates. This is not just the great reset but itâs a massive gamble.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 10:07:06 GMT
I think what we are looking for financially is to not keep making the same mistakes. From the Fleetwood accounts it appears Barton told their owner that to achieve the success he desired he needed to bring in a completely different type of player and needed to be incurring staff costs of 7 million. But two and a half years later it wasnât working and he was sacked. If you look at the four League 1 clubs I posted about the other day you can see that League 1 status and even play off positioning is possible with staff costs of much less than 7 million. The 2020 figures are Shrewsbury 4.3 million, Lincoln 5 million, AFC Wimbledon 3.6 million, Crewe Alexandra not specified but under 4 million. It looks very much as though Barton has continued with the same line as he adopted at Fleetwood. He has told Wael that virtually all of the squad was useless and needed to be replaced which has resulted in contracts having to be bought up, some contracted players having to be paid but not being part of the squad and a League 1 budget being needed to attract players of the quality he wants. Rovers donât publish staff costs in the accounts any more but in 2018 it was 5.6 million. My guess is that it will be at least that in 21/22 and I think there is sufficient evidence to show that Rovers are making the same mistake as we have made before, and the same mistake which Fleetwood have made. We are paying too much in staff costs and have not put measures in place to ensure we get value for money. I did bring this up, on the other place, no one seemed at all bothered but I do think the nice Mr Wael has been taken in and has not been learning from past mistakes & in the evidence , from Fleetwood. I had been reading many of their pressers, post Barton and it certainly made for some interesting reading. They never name Barton but say they are, slowly, getting back on track after previous errors. What genuinely get to me is that there was a lot of proof of how the manager operates. This is not just the great reset but itâs a massive gamble. Poor Wael wants, needs to prove that relegation was just an accident, a mistake, bad luck and that he can put it all right in the blink of an eye. He probably could, by bringing in the right people, that would be people with a track record of getting things right. Of course it's entirely possible that Punchy will put together a squad that plays a brand of football that blows L2 away, but it's equally possible that he's under-estimated what a 'flat roof pub car park brawl' L2 actually is and we'll end up nearer the bottom than the top.
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