Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 21:09:20 GMT
Thanks for the rationale.
I dont think its nearly as simple as that though. Whats the circumstances of these clubs compared to BRFC? Especially regarding their stadiums. Wimbledon just built one, Shewsbsury had a new stadium a few years ago. Presume they have plenty of income generation opportunities in it, up to date tech, relatively little upkeep etc etc.
We play in a dump. Its unchanged for many years. Good example - matchday hospitality. We can serve 500 meals. Play Man U in the cup and its still 500 meals. A quick and easy example of our limitations. We are paying for the lack of development of the Mem for years, based on a promise of a new ground in the future.
Our outlay on ground maintenance very high, just to get a health & safety certificate to play in the bloody thing. Im pretty sure that was one of the drivers for the bars being done out.
Just some simple examples that its necessary to compare apples with apples
I agree the overall situation is not simple but the comparison of these figures is extremely simple and is a genuine measure. We are talking about actual income and how it is spent not a "what if" scenario. These clubs spend their income wisely, they create a team which is competitive enough to stay in League 1 and they provide their supporters with reasonably comfortable facilities. If Rovers were able to serve 2000 meals per game and boosted revenue proportionately or if the ground was brand new and very low maintenance, on the evidence we have, the club would waste the extra money through mismanagement.Incidentally, does the Mem have a current health & safety certificate ? Thats merely opinion
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Post by droitwichgas on Jul 15, 2021 21:11:32 GMT
"That the club is clearly trying to do is control costs through better value contracts and increasing income where it can (ticketing, retail outsourcing, bars development but it has very limited options whilst at the Mem) and try and get a competitive team, which will ensure crowds are decent, with some players sold on at a profit and aid sustainability." Can you see any evidence in the latest accounts the club are trying to control costs, as it look to me there's been little change, next year's accounts will show the costs of recruiting 2 new managers and it's looking like Wael's given JB an open cheque book this summer. Probably not much in these accounts, I was referring generally to actions post 19/20 - the recruitment (that clearly failed miserably), the contracts offered (no more 3/4 years) and the outsourcing of the likes of the ticketing etc to get better value.
I think the playing staff costs will show significant reduction in next years accounts, with the obvious exception of management costs that will totally blow those reducations away.
Wael's already suggested we were on course to lose £3m last season, that doesn't give the impression to me that we'd brought the wage budget down. You seem prepared to state Wael is bringing spending under control when the accounts clearly suggest the opposite is in fact the case, the only hope is that Wael (& Hani?) is prepared to continue writing off £3m p.a. indefinitely.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 21:32:49 GMT
Probably not much in these accounts, I was referring generally to actions post 19/20 - the recruitment (that clearly failed miserably), the contracts offered (no more 3/4 years) and the outsourcing of the likes of the ticketing etc to get better value.
I think the playing staff costs will show significant reduction in next years accounts, with the obvious exception of management costs that will totally blow those reducations away.
Wael's already suggested we were on course to lose £3m last season, that doesn't give the impression to me that we'd brought the wage budget down. You seem prepared to state Wael is bringing spending under control when the accounts clearly suggest the opposite is in fact the case, the only hope is that Wael (& Hani?) is prepared to continue writing off £3m p.a. indefinitely. I think that this was the plan with Garner and would have kicked in from summer 2020 when the playing squad overhaul took place, so we cant tell until this time next year when the next accounts are up.
Im pretty sure those accounts will show a reduction in player costs.
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Post by droitwichgas on Jul 15, 2021 21:39:36 GMT
Wael's already suggested we were on course to lose £3m last season, that doesn't give the impression to me that we'd brought the wage budget down. You seem prepared to state Wael is bringing spending under control when the accounts clearly suggest the opposite is in fact the case, the only hope is that Wael (& Hani?) is prepared to continue writing off £3m p.a. indefinitely. I think that this was the plan with Garner and would have kicked in from summer 2020 when the playing squad overhaul took place, so we cant tell until this time next year when the next accounts are up.
Im pretty sure those accounts will show a reduction in player costs.
If wages were cut its hardly been a positive saving as it ultimately led to our relegation! It seems as a club we can't function without making £2m+ losses.
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Post by Bamber Gashead on Jul 15, 2021 21:41:45 GMT
How much money have we spent on managers since Ben Garner's appointment?
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 15, 2021 21:54:04 GMT
Well, there’s a surprise, some clever words and talking down but no answers, but I do appreciate you trying to make it easy for me. Thank you.😉 I’d suggest losses of that size are not sustainable but I’ve no idea how much Wael has got, rather like you I suspect. And I don’t really have to demonstrate anything. I thought contradiction summed up our predicament very well and said so. You replied with sarcasm but no suggestions and when called out decided to do the same again, this time to me. Hey ho. Blimey, this from someone who didn’t even know who we signed a few days ago and couldn’t be bothered to find out. Priceless. UTG! Why is this a hard concept for you? Can you show where Wael has sufficient income to cover the present level of ongoing losses? As said several times, over a long period, if we were in 1982's position and were losing £10m PA I wouldn't care as you can easily see that the owner has sufficient income and it's a matter of public record that he has sufficient reserves to cover this on an ongoing basis. The rest of it from contradiction is just bluster and noise, much the same as you attempting to suggest that because I haven't watched the official site for player signing news, my concerns about the club's finances are not valid. It's a daft suggestion, as well you know. Come on TWD, I’ve said it’s unsustainable but I don’t know the true value of WAQ and I can’t show that he has got sufficient income just as you can’t show that he hasn’t. And in a sense whatever your worth I’d say losses of £2-3m is unsustainable anyway but it’s all relative and for some that may not be much. And I’ve never said your concern about the finances are not valid, they are of course and I agree it would be daft to say otherwise. Which is why I wouldn’t, and didn’t, say that. My point was more that you replied to contradiction but added nothing to the debate. And my point about not knowing who we’d signed was a bit of a joke at you. You must surely see the irony of it. You, of all people, love to call others out for not doing their research and will always point out unknown case in the USA or elsewhere about the subject being discussed. Yet here you were, a Rovers fan, not being prepared to find out or do your research about who we’d signed yet you’d found the time to call Ashton Gate. You’re sharp, so surely you could see the irony and humour in that. Surely. If that had been you, you’d have called them out strait away about it. 😉 But to the point, the situation is what it is, I think contradiction summed it up pretty well. You may differ which is ok, this is a forum. And I hope you can see from my later posts that I hope someone is looking at reasons why we are where we are and the possible solutions. UTG!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 21:55:24 GMT
I think that this was the plan with Garner and would have kicked in from summer 2020 when the playing squad overhaul took place, so we cant tell until this time next year when the next accounts are up.
Im pretty sure those accounts will show a reduction in player costs.
If wages were cut its hardly been a positive saving as it ultimately led to our relegation! It seems as a club we can't function without making £2m+ losses. Indeed. Sounds a good idea at the time, sign young players who can develop and who can potentially sell...
City have been doing it for years - and on the field have more or less stood still, but it has helped claw back some of their significant outlay.
Common wisdom is that the bigger the playing budget the more chance of success, and the evidence strongly supports that. Obviosuly there are some exceptions, but they tend to be unsustainable.
So when people complain about the weekly losses they really should be clear what they are actually proposing to address it.
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
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Post by Angas on Jul 15, 2021 22:08:55 GMT
Wael's already suggested we were on course to lose £3m last season, that doesn't give the impression to me that we'd brought the wage budget down. You seem prepared to state Wael is bringing spending under control when the accounts clearly suggest the opposite is in fact the case, the only hope is that Wael (& Hani?) is prepared to continue writing off £3m p.a. indefinitely. I think that this was the plan with Garner and would have kicked in from summer 2020 when the playing squad overhaul took place, so we cant tell until this time next year when the next accounts are up.
Im pretty sure those accounts will show a reduction in player costs.
That's merely opinion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 22:11:11 GMT
I think that this was the plan with Garner and would have kicked in from summer 2020 when the playing squad overhaul took place, so we cant tell until this time next year when the next accounts are up.
Im pretty sure those accounts will show a reduction in player costs.
That's merely opinion. Absolutely, and I fully expect it to be fact when we see the accounts in 12 months time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 22:16:25 GMT
Why is this a hard concept for you? Can you show where Wael has sufficient income to cover the present level of ongoing losses? As said several times, over a long period, if we were in 1982's position and were losing £10m PA I wouldn't care as you can easily see that the owner has sufficient income and it's a matter of public record that he has sufficient reserves to cover this on an ongoing basis. The rest of it from contradiction is just bluster and noise, much the same as you attempting to suggest that because I haven't watched the official site for player signing news, my concerns about the club's finances are not valid. It's a daft suggestion, as well you know. Come on TWD, I’ve said it’s unsustainable but I don’t know the true value of WAQ and I can’t show that he has got sufficient income just as you can’t show that he hasn’t. And in a sense whatever your worth I’d say losses of £2-3m is unsustainable anyway but it’s all relative and for some that may not be much. And I’ve never said your concern about the finances are not valid, they are of course and I agree it would be daft to say otherwise. Which is why I wouldn’t, and didn’t, say that. My point was more that you replied to contradiction but added nothing to the debate. And my point about not knowing who we’d signed was a bit of a joke at you. You must surely see the irony of it. You, of all people, love to call others out for not doing their research and will always point out unknown case in the USA or elsewhere about the subject being discussed. Yet here you were, a Rovers fan, not being prepared to find out or do your research about who we’d signed yet you’d found the time to call Ashton Gate. You’re sharp, so surely you could see the irony and humour in that. Surely. If that had been you, you’d have called them out strait away about it. 😉 But to the point, the situation is what it is, I think contradiction summed it up pretty well. You may differ which is ok, this is a forum. And I hope you can see from my later posts that I hope someone is looking at reasons why we are where we are and the possible solutions. UTG! The thing is wareham, contradiction keeps trying to move the discussion from Wael to me, it's nothing to do with me, and anyway I've said countless times over literally years what I think needs doing to try to understand the situation. Like you, I hope that the finances are being brought under control, but over 5 years it seems to be getting worse, so it's not looking promising. It sounds a bit desperate when things are dragged up from years ago like calling The DSS Arena to make the point that Gorringe had made a mistake and then linking that to my present lack of interest in first team matters. That 's driven by being ashamed of the club for having Barton as manager, and absolutely refusing to give the club money which would support his employment. If others are OK with supporting him financially then that's up to them, we all work hard for our money and are free to spend it as we see fit, but I can't contribute towards his salary, sorry. Anyway, that's why I'm not following every twist and turn of player comings and goings right now. But on the day that I asked that question, be honest, could you name all 7 players who had joined, their positions, where they had come from and how long their contracts were? No, thought not. That doesn't mean that I've given up on Rovers, my club will still be here long after our present, rather unpleasant, manager has either moved or been moved on.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 22:33:49 GMT
So, in your opinion, understanding the present accounts then seeking professional help in getting expenditure and losses broadly in line with other clubs with a similar profile is 'a cop out'. OK then. BTW, can you please provide the data that you've used to reach the conclusion that the arrangement with TicketMaster provides the club with 'better value' ? Its not about understanding the accounts is it, its about running the business. Its a £2.5m shortfall, you are talking major policy decisions here.
Other clubs have different circumstances, other challenges that may or may not apply.
But you have already gone to print with the criticism, then only now trying to find out what options you have. You dont really seem to know do you, although you made up your mind anyway.
I could give you some options quite quickly, whether they would be "acceptable" to the fan base who knows, as none of them are very palatable.
Regarding the ticketing, I believe they undertook a tender excercise. I think it was on the web site (which you cant be bothered to read I recall). If it was a tender then one would assume its better value than what we had before.
I think you may need a little help here. You are aware that the term 'accounts' refers to both ongoing internal record keeping and audited accounts, aren't you? You are going to say that you are, but I can almost hear you saying 'oh bugger' I see what he's been talking about now. Oh well, you can just chalk that up to experience. Moving on. You made a claim that TicketMaster offered better value, as soon as you've been asked to support that claim it becomes clear that it's just as assumption. Well, given the mess that the club finds itself in, on and off the pitch, why is it even close to reasonable to 'assume' that a good business decision has been made here?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 22:34:53 GMT
Come on TWD, I’ve said it’s unsustainable but I don’t know the true value of WAQ and I can’t show that he has got sufficient income just as you can’t show that he hasn’t. And in a sense whatever your worth I’d say losses of £2-3m is unsustainable anyway but it’s all relative and for some that may not be much. And I’ve never said your concern about the finances are not valid, they are of course and I agree it would be daft to say otherwise. Which is why I wouldn’t, and didn’t, say that. My point was more that you replied to contradiction but added nothing to the debate. And my point about not knowing who we’d signed was a bit of a joke at you. You must surely see the irony of it. You, of all people, love to call others out for not doing their research and will always point out unknown case in the USA or elsewhere about the subject being discussed. Yet here you were, a Rovers fan, not being prepared to find out or do your research about who we’d signed yet you’d found the time to call Ashton Gate. You’re sharp, so surely you could see the irony and humour in that. Surely. If that had been you, you’d have called them out strait away about it. 😉 But to the point, the situation is what it is, I think contradiction summed it up pretty well. You may differ which is ok, this is a forum. And I hope you can see from my later posts that I hope someone is looking at reasons why we are where we are and the possible solutions. UTG! The thing is wareham, contradiction keeps trying to move the discussion from Wael to me, it's nothing to do with me, and anyway I've said countless times over literally years what I think needs doing to try to understand the situation. Like you, I hope that the finances are being brought under control, but over 5 years it seems to be getting worse, so it's not looking promising. It sounds a bit desperate when things are dragged up from years ago like calling The DSS Arena to make the point that Gorringe had made a mistake and then linking that to my present lack of interest in first team matters. That 's driven by being ashamed of the club for having Barton as manager, and absolutely refusing to give the club money which would support his employment. If others are OK with supporting him financially then that's up to them, we all work hard for our money and are free to spend it as we see fit, but I can't contribute towards his salary, sorry. Anyway, that's why I'm not following every twist and turn of player comings and goings right now. But on the day that I asked that question, be honest, could you name all 7 players who had joined, their positions, where they had come from and how long their contracts were? No, thought not. That doesn't mean that I've given up on Rovers, my club will still be here long after our present, rather unpleasant, manager has either moved or been moved on. Nonsense, its just asking you to back up your comments - and its obvious you cant.
To be taken seriously give us a list of things that you think could be considered to address it the financial gap - its not too difficult a concept
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 22:40:43 GMT
The thing is wareham, contradiction keeps trying to move the discussion from Wael to me, it's nothing to do with me, and anyway I've said countless times over literally years what I think needs doing to try to understand the situation. Like you, I hope that the finances are being brought under control, but over 5 years it seems to be getting worse, so it's not looking promising. It sounds a bit desperate when things are dragged up from years ago like calling The DSS Arena to make the point that Gorringe had made a mistake and then linking that to my present lack of interest in first team matters. That 's driven by being ashamed of the club for having Barton as manager, and absolutely refusing to give the club money which would support his employment. If others are OK with supporting him financially then that's up to them, we all work hard for our money and are free to spend it as we see fit, but I can't contribute towards his salary, sorry. Anyway, that's why I'm not following every twist and turn of player comings and goings right now. But on the day that I asked that question, be honest, could you name all 7 players who had joined, their positions, where they had come from and how long their contracts were? No, thought not. That doesn't mean that I've given up on Rovers, my club will still be here long after our present, rather unpleasant, manager has either moved or been moved on. Nonsense, its just asking you to back up your comments - and its obvious you cant.
To be taken seriously give us a list of things that you think could be considered to address it the financial gap - its not too difficult a concept
How many times can I explain the same thing. The problem is, you don't like the answer. That's not my fault. You want me to give a fixed solution to a problem without having all of the available data. You may think that's a good plan, sorry but I don't. But by all means forward all of the club's accounts over the last 5 years, literally everything, and as time allows I'll go over things and give you my thoughts. As mentioned a few mins ago, I'm not talking about the audited accounts which are published here, I would need everything from the club's accounts office. There you go, you have your answer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 22:42:11 GMT
Its not about understanding the accounts is it, its about running the business. Its a £2.5m shortfall, you are talking major policy decisions here.
Other clubs have different circumstances, other challenges that may or may not apply.
But you have already gone to print with the criticism, then only now trying to find out what options you have. You dont really seem to know do you, although you made up your mind anyway.
I could give you some options quite quickly, whether they would be "acceptable" to the fan base who knows, as none of them are very palatable.
Regarding the ticketing, I believe they undertook a tender excercise. I think it was on the web site (which you cant be bothered to read I recall). If it was a tender then one would assume its better value than what we had before.
I think you may need a little help here. You are aware that the term 'accounts' refers to both ongoing internal record keeping and audited accounts, aren't you? You are going to say that you are, but I can almost hear you saying 'oh bugger' I see what he's been talking about now. Oh well, you can just chalk that up to experience. Moving on. You made a claim that TicketMaster offered better value, as soon as you've been asked to support that claim it becomes clear that it's just as assumption. Well, given the mess that the club finds itself in, on and off the pitch, why is it even close to reasonable to 'assume' that a good business decision has been made here? Says the guy who assumes WAQ does not have enough funds to keep us going.
Another classic
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 22:51:56 GMT
I think you may need a little help here. You are aware that the term 'accounts' refers to both ongoing internal record keeping and audited accounts, aren't you? You are going to say that you are, but I can almost hear you saying 'oh bugger' I see what he's been talking about now. Oh well, you can just chalk that up to experience. Moving on. You made a claim that TicketMaster offered better value, as soon as you've been asked to support that claim it becomes clear that it's just as assumption. Well, given the mess that the club finds itself in, on and off the pitch, why is it even close to reasonable to 'assume' that a good business decision has been made here? Says the guy who assumes WAQ does not have enough funds to keep us going.
Another classic
It's helpful to read what people say before replying, you obviously don't, so go back and have another go. Now, why is it reasonable to assume that TicketMaster offer better value than our previous arrangement please? I'm done with this silliness for one day. See you in the morning and we'll do it some more, maybe.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 16, 2021 7:56:23 GMT
Come on TWD, I’ve said it’s unsustainable but I don’t know the true value of WAQ and I can’t show that he has got sufficient income just as you can’t show that he hasn’t. And in a sense whatever your worth I’d say losses of £2-3m is unsustainable anyway but it’s all relative and for some that may not be much. And I’ve never said your concern about the finances are not valid, they are of course and I agree it would be daft to say otherwise. Which is why I wouldn’t, and didn’t, say that. My point was more that you replied to contradiction but added nothing to the debate. And my point about not knowing who we’d signed was a bit of a joke at you. You must surely see the irony of it. You, of all people, love to call others out for not doing their research and will always point out unknown case in the USA or elsewhere about the subject being discussed. Yet here you were, a Rovers fan, not being prepared to find out or do your research about who we’d signed yet you’d found the time to call Ashton Gate. You’re sharp, so surely you could see the irony and humour in that. Surely. If that had been you, you’d have called them out strait away about it. 😉 But to the point, the situation is what it is, I think contradiction summed it up pretty well. You may differ which is ok, this is a forum. And I hope you can see from my later posts that I hope someone is looking at reasons why we are where we are and the possible solutions. UTG! The thing is wareham, contradiction keeps trying to move the discussion from Wael to me, it's nothing to do with me, and anyway I've said countless times over literally years what I think needs doing to try to understand the situation. Like you, I hope that the finances are being brought under control, but over 5 years it seems to be getting worse, so it's not looking promising. It sounds a bit desperate when things are dragged up from years ago like calling The DSS Arena to make the point that Gorringe had made a mistake and then linking that to my present lack of interest in first team matters. That 's driven by being ashamed of the club for having Barton as manager, and absolutely refusing to give the club money which would support his employment. If others are OK with supporting him financially then that's up to them, we all work hard for our money and are free to spend it as we see fit, but I can't contribute towards his salary, sorry. Anyway, that's why I'm not following every twist and turn of player comings and goings right now. But on the day that I asked that question, be honest, could you name all 7 players who had joined, their positions, where they had come from and how long their contracts were? No, thought not. That doesn't mean that I've given up on Rovers, my club will still be here long after our present, rather unpleasant, manager has either moved or been moved on. Thanks for that, now we’ve started to engage civilly and it’s a much better conversation without the other stuff. Yes, I get all the concerns you have and I completely appreciate your view about our current manager, I’m probably not too far off agreeing with you. But I said at the beginning that I won’t let the appointment drive me away from “my” club because, and you’re absolutely right, Rovers and me supporting them will still be here when he’s long gone and has departed for whatever reason. But in the meantime it’s still my club and I will continue to support them as best I can. And do you know what, I actually could name them all and the few who have joined in the last week. It’s very sad I know but I could! It’s my club, I’m interested. UTG!
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 16, 2021 8:04:19 GMT
You’re correct in that comparing directly with other clubs isn’t straightforward but even in differing contexts some comparisons can be made for example staffing levels, playing squad size and costs, match day staffing and non playing staffing. Maintenance comparisons would be very different when you look at the Mem. Perhaps travelling costs would differ. Most businesses operate in differing contexts and depending on what their core purpose is they will still likely do some benchmarking comparisons with neighbours or others about what they do and what it costs. Of course it’s best to compare apples with apples but in Rovers case perhaps we're Granny Smith and the other clubs are Golden Delicious or Gala, all apples but different kinds.😀 UTG! In days gone by I'd have come up with a rotten to the core joke Wareham ...... but I've mellowed. Indeed! And I would have replied about probably not completely rotten but a few maggots trying to get in. Whatever, let’s hope we get a bumper crop this Autumn! UTG!
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Jul 16, 2021 8:58:05 GMT
I've said some mean things about Wael in the past. However I think he is a decent man who wants to do the best for our Club. I presume the size of the debt now outweighs the equity in the Memorial Stadium (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). If this is true then the Al-Qadi family (mostly Wael) must personally be losing £50,000 per week to keep the Club afloat. Sami and Hani must also be suffering smaller losses. Year on year accounts show that the weekly losses are slowly coming down. What credible plan is there for Wael to ever get this money back? What is the medium/long term strategy for the business to ever return a profit? There would not appear to be one. I just don't get it. Wael is throwing money into a big pit. On the one hand, if he didn't do this, we would be out of business. So I can understand people saying "well done Wael". On the other hand the annual losses Dwane Sports are racking up are a direct result of senior (mis) management. I don't see competence at the top level to get Wael Al-Qadi out of this financial nightmare. He needs better help and advice at Board level. I don't want to see him fail. He fails, Bristol Rovers ultimately fails. Hey ho. Not my problem. And the band played on. Epping A large chunk of the debt has gone, that's what the capitalisation does, it converts the it to shares. It has gone, it has ceased to be. However much anyone wants to use the 'debt' figure against Wael they can no longer do so (not saying you are doing that but some will). We are no longer £23m in debt and this will show in the next accounts (as per the note in the accounts just published) You could call it a 'reset'. or perhaps 'Year Zero'. Debt will 'commence' being run up again from that point though (it already has and you can work it out based on 50k a week loss) as we know that the club is operating at a loss as are 99% of other clubs. Some people seem to think we re a 'basket case' for losing 50k per week but if thats true then nearly all other clubs are too. For example- MK Dons lost £63k per week, Charlton 100k per week. The list is endless. And practically all of them have better grounds than Rovers with better income generating opportunities. Basket cases, all of them, obviously. (we know some really are) The model of funding clubs is broken. Its madness, no other business does this, but football is not any old business. Its exists for the Lee Brown moment (or equivilent) which all clubs are trying to get to. It doesn't actually exist to make a profit as its primary aim. There is no pitch invasion from the fans for breaking even. We know the club were trying to become more sustainable before Covid, with some limited success, but remember that if Rovers really did try and operate in a break even way in the current circumstances of operating a ground that is hardly fit for purpose it would likely need : Huge reduction in wages, a non competitive team, a squad of say 18 being paid peanuts (remember it must be " what we can afford") No development squad, no academy (no future?) Limited support staff (forget scouting the opposition, unless Joey does that as well as training etc, as he wouldn't have any coaches) Limited scouting for recruitment Even worse facilities at the Mem for the supporters (maintenance costs at the Mem are very high due to its age, high expenditure is necessary to get annual health & safety licence) And thats only part of it, you get the picture. But we may break even if we did the above, few would bother to attend though as we finished mid table in Conference South (at which point one or two people could carry WAQ down Glos Road for breaking even) This is the reality that owners of football clubs have to deal with and we as fans need to appreciate more. Until the model changes clubs are reliant on the owners to fund losses, as the alternative is the bleak picture above. WAQ has to balance the above with the need for a competitive team which requires giving a manager the best chance to do so, and the expectation of fans (rightly so) to do well and aim high. What the club is clearly trying to do is control costs through better value contracts and increasing income where it can (ticketing, retail outsourcing, bars development but it has very limited options whilst at the Mem) and try and get a competitive team, which will ensure crowds are decent, with some players sold on at a profit and aid sustainability. Not a lot more can be done unless/until a new stadium Wael would only ever get his money back on selling the club, if a potential buyer was prepared to pay the value he put on it. One challenge for the accountants on here could be to try to create a pretend break even budget for the club and see what they were up against Thanks for confirming the status of the debt. I actually don't think we are a million miles apart in our assessment of where the Club is right now. It's a basket case. As are many others. I note that 8 Clubs are currently under EFL transfer embargoes, all I presume for financial irregularities. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57760968I think this is the thin end of the wedge and there will be others. I don't want Bristol Rovers to join them.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 9:16:01 GMT
Says the guy who assumes WAQ does not have enough funds to keep us going.
Another classic
It's helpful to read what people say before replying, you obviously don't, so go back and have another go. Now, why is it reasonable to assume that TicketMaster offer better value than our previous arrangement please? I'm done with this silliness for one day. See you in the morning and we'll do it some more, maybe.
Think we best draw a line under it, it will become repetitive.
You've made it clear that you cant substantiate your criticism, so lets leave it there
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 9:26:05 GMT
Epping A large chunk of the debt has gone, that's what the capitalisation does, it converts the it to shares. It has gone, it has ceased to be. However much anyone wants to use the 'debt' figure against Wael they can no longer do so (not saying you are doing that but some will). We are no longer £23m in debt and this will show in the next accounts (as per the note in the accounts just published) You could call it a 'reset'. or perhaps 'Year Zero'. Debt will 'commence' being run up again from that point though (it already has and you can work it out based on 50k a week loss) as we know that the club is operating at a loss as are 99% of other clubs. Some people seem to think we re a 'basket case' for losing 50k per week but if thats true then nearly all other clubs are too. For example- MK Dons lost £63k per week, Charlton 100k per week. The list is endless. And practically all of them have better grounds than Rovers with better income generating opportunities. Basket cases, all of them, obviously. (we know some really are) The model of funding clubs is broken. Its madness, no other business does this, but football is not any old business. Its exists for the Lee Brown moment (or equivilent) which all clubs are trying to get to. It doesn't actually exist to make a profit as its primary aim. There is no pitch invasion from the fans for breaking even. We know the club were trying to become more sustainable before Covid, with some limited success, but remember that if Rovers really did try and operate in a break even way in the current circumstances of operating a ground that is hardly fit for purpose it would likely need : Huge reduction in wages, a non competitive team, a squad of say 18 being paid peanuts (remember it must be " what we can afford") No development squad, no academy (no future?) Limited support staff (forget scouting the opposition, unless Joey does that as well as training etc, as he wouldn't have any coaches) Limited scouting for recruitment Even worse facilities at the Mem for the supporters (maintenance costs at the Mem are very high due to its age, high expenditure is necessary to get annual health & safety licence) And thats only part of it, you get the picture. But we may break even if we did the above, few would bother to attend though as we finished mid table in Conference South (at which point one or two people could carry WAQ down Glos Road for breaking even) This is the reality that owners of football clubs have to deal with and we as fans need to appreciate more. Until the model changes clubs are reliant on the owners to fund losses, as the alternative is the bleak picture above. WAQ has to balance the above with the need for a competitive team which requires giving a manager the best chance to do so, and the expectation of fans (rightly so) to do well and aim high. What the club is clearly trying to do is control costs through better value contracts and increasing income where it can (ticketing, retail outsourcing, bars development but it has very limited options whilst at the Mem) and try and get a competitive team, which will ensure crowds are decent, with some players sold on at a profit and aid sustainability. Not a lot more can be done unless/until a new stadium Wael would only ever get his money back on selling the club, if a potential buyer was prepared to pay the value he put on it. One challenge for the accountants on here could be to try to create a pretend break even budget for the club and see what they were up against Thanks for confirming the status of the debt. I actually don't think we are a million miles apart in our assessment of where the Club is right now. It's a basket case. As are many others. I note that 8 Clubs are currently under EFL transfer embargoes, all I presume for financial irregularities. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57760968I think this is the thin end of the wedge and there will be others. I don't want Bristol Rovers to join them. Indeed Epping.
Nor do I. But we (all of us I assume) also want to create ther best oppoutunity to progress. Both on and off the field. Which requires funding, and for the 'on the field' part, there is largely a 'going rate' to achieve it.
Hence so many clubs overspending/relying on owner funding, as in reality there is little choice, depending on club/fan ambition and expectation.
The sooner people understand that point there can be more grown up debate rather than sniping from the sidlines that cant be substantiated.
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