Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 16:22:30 GMT
What a potentially divisive thread, brilliantly incorporating different opinions that hasn't yet been transformed into a trash match of scoring points and cheap shots yet. So far. I'm sure we don't all agree, but fair play to everyone for their conduct so far. Maybe because we won so well yesterday provoking a good mood, but well done everyone for contributing with respect. Off topic, I know, but pertinent because so many other threads have descended into despair...! Hysteria trumps rationality these days, social media has a lot to do with that. Discussion becomes about who can shout the loudest and angriest. But yeah I agree that it’s good that an uncomfortable subject can be discussed in an adult manner where the reaction from inside the football world seems to be one of hysteria and over-reaction- see Wayne Rooney’s comments. I think we need to understand the reason’s why people feel the need to boo before we see it as an attack on the tackling of racism by racists. We can see in this thread that people are opposed to taking the knee in football and it’s not at all because they hate black people.
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topman
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 187
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Post by topman on Dec 6, 2020 17:32:48 GMT
They way I see it....
Something happens in a different country over which we have no control even so obviously wrong
Mass media goes into overdrive but seems to lack the same level of interest in the past victims of Floyd?
Gives licence to the already established BLM to create unrest world wide
Social media ramps up
Corporate bodies nationally including the likes of Sky attach themselves to BLM without presumably even bother to check out the political aims?
If they did they would have more sensibly decided to use a slightly different slogan? Maybe All Lives Matter? Thereby including all racial groups
By NOT drawing a distinction, a groundswell of opinion gathers against BLM (political group), leading to yesterday at Millwall
So such stupid PR choice works against the very thing that most reasonable people want to see, people being treated fairly, irrespective of background?
I have supported Rovers for almost 55 years, have never and would never abuse any player for racist reasons
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 18:26:53 GMT
So because some meatheads booed it at Millwall, we should ignore the fact that racism pervades British society in the 21st Century and that an attempt is being made to draw attention to it (no more or less than that) on the basis that most of us middle aged (give or take) white men havent really experienced it?
No.
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Post by Global Gas on Dec 6, 2020 19:07:03 GMT
I think the problem is some people would boo whatever gesture was being made to support anti-racism.
Certain people have latched onto a tiny (and I mean miniscule) group within the BLM movement as representing the entire movement and those certain people will fight to the end to hold on to that position because they don't want to admit there is a problem and their attitude is at the heart of it.
We live in a society that holds on to individual truths as representing all truths, just look how divided people are across politics.
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topman
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 187
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Post by topman on Dec 6, 2020 19:08:04 GMT
I think with respect the line you draw is the same mistake that many make in influential positions...
Alignment to a political movement that is unrepresentative of most people in this country unless of course you want to...
Legalise all drugs
Defund the police
Do away with traditional family and marriage values
Anti capitalist
Sometimes how you send a message is just as important as the message itself
On a wider issue I don't believe that ANY demonstrations should have been involved during lockdown and that includes the Colston statue incident
Police should not be political... End of
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Post by basel on Dec 6, 2020 19:53:30 GMT
BLM have changed their name,but I believe they will still sometimes use BLM.
They are now registered as The Black Liberation Movement UK.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 21:01:36 GMT
BLM have changed their name,but I believe they will still sometimes use BLM. They are now registered as The Black Liberation Movement UK. Splitters
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Post by emperorsuperbus on Dec 6, 2020 22:08:05 GMT
yougov.co.uk/topics/sport/articles-reports/2020/10/16/do-fans-support-premier-league-players-knee-blm?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_questions&utm_campaign=blm_taking_the_knee_footballFans are pretty split on it tbh Not all against it may be racist though, I sense okay with BLM because most of us will agree there is still some way to go until everyone judged on their character not their skin colour, but cautious importing movements wholesale from the US. Civil rights movements work best when they conform to local injustices and circumstances. Liberal Democracy, Communism, women's sufferage, LGBT rights movements and any other zeitgeist defining social and political movements were successful because they molded to the societies they were trying to change. So there's an issue with the US dominating almost all discourse on the internet that their social movements inevitably bleed into ours relevant or not? does it mean the same elsewhere when that national myth is completely different? I don’t like when such things hijacked by media (sky sports) as a right on badge to wear, and commercialised, what premier league had done to remembrance is s***, pictures of falling poppies on big screen and sometimes not even a proper silence. Any spirituality of Christmas pretty much pulped by commercialism now. And BLM goes the same way. It’s true meaning lost. Practicing knee taking becomes counter productive on simple grounds of does it happen forever or till certain conditions are met, what actually is measured as improved when it stops? BLM can only be judged on real change, not amount of badge wearers, knee takers, power fist makers. the only practical purpose of knee taking is to inspire unity on recognition of racial injustice so there can be change. Only on achieving this should it be judged. Being bloody minded to a world, perceiving it’s out to screw you so you don’t trust and you ain’t gonna take no s*** is not the way to live. So what is knee taking achieving if it divides us now as neatly as that poll not uniting? It's like clapping for the NHS, do you offend people by stopping? People are scared to stop taking the knee, especially after the backlash QPR got. I think the point has been made, it's now unnecessary and detracts from and devalues the initial reason, and breeds only negativity at anyone's reaction to it, but that's only my opinion, it's a difficult one and i don't know what the solution is. That's sad, but I wonder if this is how it was invisaged, people confused about how to act. People shouldn't be confused, we should be able to voice our feelings and the more it goes on like this the less I feel I can say it without being dismissed as a boomer, or racist, just for disagreeing. I agree with the sentiment but it needs freshening up now. A new campaign, one to replace taking the knee. Punish Millwall, or don't, but don't ignore it, if you ignore it you condone it. I think comparing it to clapping for the NHS is very good example. Shallow, tokenistic commitment is worse than silence. The reason that was stopped can apply here too. It’s not that these things remain the same in this world, the meaning of symbols change over time, becomes hijacked, so something about showing solidarity changes into something sowing division. the person who started nhs clapping called a halt claiming it had been hi jacked by politics. how does it change? In some ways nefarious. Like Social media posts saying this is all part of Karl Marx master plan, or this is what black panthers want, or it’s actually sign of Satan - this is how devil worshipers await their Master. You can say that’s unfairly changed, but it still changes how many people see it and you are no longer reaching out to them with it. Many who believe there is still too much racism in society they want stamped out also don’t wish to see the knee taking going on and on, they actually want to see evidence of culture change for the better and fear this sort of gesture politics replaces real change, so knee taking has changed to something bad in their mind too, a sort of laziness that doesn’t tackle the real thing excusing more effort. Also confusion. Do you really know why you are doing something. If you sing the words of a song (like Jerusalem or Come all ye faithful or Mary Mary quite contrary)do you know what they mean? When you were out clapping on Thursday nights, who were you clapping for? nhs? Carers? Does kneeling address Racism, where it’s depends on context–there is no one cause of racism or one solution to racism. Is the symbol tied in to a campaign with clear measurable and achievable goals? If so arguing against stopping can be lazy, if It replaces the thinking of fresh and original things all campaigns need to remind of racism and achieving change for the better. If you can’t retire this one and come up with something equally or even more effective, it may be laziness won’t build unity and change because without reinvention and inspiration campaigning goes nowhere, history has clearly taught us that hasn’t it? History teaches us that it is only when those in power have something to lose that change occurs. Strikes work because they cost your employer; boycotts because they deprive companies of revenue; and civil disobedience because it shuts down institutions. We’ve taken the knee, done our bit. What’s for dinner. for those of us who are not racist, what change do we want instead? 1). On a personal level, listen. Those of us who know black people, have said a lot of times about their experiences – but do we really listen? Football fans hearing testimonials of racism and its impacts should on a personal level listen. On a personal level we should be brave enough to make life harder for racists. 2). Education. A society can only be as equal as the knowledge on which it is built. Don’t tell someone not to do something, explain it. For example, don’t eat the fruit of this tree, it will give you all the knowledge. The outcome to that doesn’t sound bad does it? It was almost like God was setting them up for a fall? Integrity coaching and education how to tackle unconscious bias shouldn’t just be for schools, but lifelong learning. 3). Is black people taking a knee a religious thing, but it’s different connotations for white people. Because of the connotations of taking the knee, it would make more sense if the black sportsman remained standing whilst the white knelt? Like the scene in the Lord of the rings when they all knelt for the hobbits? 4). Recognition of how taking the knee actually encourages passive by standing. By that I mean appreciating how insisting it has to happen has put the Millwall players in a difficult place now. They may have been making good inroads in combatting racism in the community but that’s been wrecked by insisting they have to take the knee. Because quite simply the clubs voice in the community has now changed, its identity has changed in the eyes of the fans. It is by using a unique identity good community work is achieved by clubs.
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Teigngas
Steve White
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 265
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Post by Teigngas on Dec 7, 2020 7:32:23 GMT
The important thing here is the message that we are trying to get across. BLM represents, to most people, an anti racism message not a pro-Marxist viewpoint.
Is taking the knee shallow and tokenistic? On the surface of it maybe, but I would argue that it keeps Racism issues in the spotlight so can only be a good thing (here we are talking about it). It seems odd that something so trivial (in my eyes) as knee taking appears to be more controversial than the issue of racism itself but hey ho.
Is taking the knee going to solve racism? Of course not but if it helps keep the issue in the limelight then good.
I think the emperor is correct in saying it can be compared to NHS clapping, again a shallow and tokenistic gesture? Here's the really controversial thing, l think it was a good thing this went on as long as it did, for exactly the same reason as knee taking - it keeps it in the publics consciousness and reinforces what a great institution the NHS is.
When I decided enough with the clapping, I just stopped doing it, I didn't go to the front door and start booing because it was a hollow gesture, that would have been tantamount to booing the NHS.
Therefore I can only draw one conclusion about the supporters that chose to boo the knee taking instead of staying silent, and it ain't a good one.
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Post by Global Gas on Dec 7, 2020 7:55:54 GMT
The important thing here is the message that we are trying to get across. BLM represents, to most people, an anti racism message not a pro-Marxist viewpoint. Is taking the knee shallow and tokenistic? On the surface of it maybe, but I would argue that it keeps Racism issues in the spotlight so can only be a good thing (here we are talking about it). It seems odd that something so trivial (in my eyes) as knee taking appears to be more controversial than the issue of racism itself but hey ho. Is taking the knee going to solve racism? Of course not but if it helps keep the issue in the limelight then good. I think the emperor is correct in saying it can be compared to NHS clapping, again a shallow and tokenistic gesture? Here's the really controversial thing, l think it was a good thing this went on as long as it did, for exactly the same reason as knee taking - it keeps it in the publics consciousness and reinforces what a great institution the NHS is. When I decided enough with the clapping, I just stopped doing it, I didn't go to the front door and start booing because it was a hollow gesture, that would have been tantamount to booing the NHS. Therefore I can only draw one conclusion about the supporters that chose to boo the knee taking instead of staying silent, and it ain't a good one. Agree. If your response to players taking the knee as a sign of solidarity against racism (no matter how 'empty' the gesture) is choosing to boo or turn your back rather than do something else to show your support to the message then ...
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 7, 2020 8:20:12 GMT
Sport divides as well, as we live in a 2 team city.... We're watching the same sport. 😆 yep of course. Though I wonder sometimes given the opinions on this forum..
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 7, 2020 8:22:46 GMT
I've said before that I think the whole taking a knee thing has become meaningless. I forget the guys name (Kapernick?) but when he first did it, it had impact and really shook things up. When UK footballers do it , it's so staged it's cringeworthy. Blow whistle, kneel down, blow whistle, back up again. However, this BLM is Marxist is a pile of horse s***e. Yes an organisation may have grown out of it, but does anyone really believe that the Americans who first did it and now the Premier League footballers who do it are actually supporting Marxism? Give me a break.. By the time some teams have got up Mourinhos team have kicked off to try and gain an advantage 😆
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 7, 2020 8:23:17 GMT
The f*ckwits and racists seemed to have recently received Facebook medicine degrees, followed in days with virology and epidemiology doctorates from Google, and give the impression they have received all four volumes of Das Kapital in their cornflakes today. I'll wager my pocket-money that the majority of those booing at Millwall, have no evidence that BLM is Marxist-led, and could not define (without Googling) Marxism. I'll start: Very basically ( I can get much, much more Daedalian with regard to Marxism), and over-simplifying Marxism, it usually means analyzing social change through an economic lens, with the assumption that the rich and the poor should become more equal; oh, and plenty of booing footballers who kneel for a couple of seconds before a football match to show support for "black lives" - all very straightforward, really. Old Trot/Marxist here...#UTG We’ve been brought up to fear equality in this country. I wonder why? And for whose benefit? It’s a real head scratcher that one.... We are probably the most inclusive country in the world.
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 7, 2020 8:24:02 GMT
This sums up how absurd its become nicely. England v France R union today: None of the french took a knee. 6 English didnt take it. Pretty certain none of the black players took it, but i may be incorrect. It looked rather feeble. Wow, what a difference, the great, often classier superior sport of rugby.
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Post by basel on Dec 7, 2020 8:50:15 GMT
This sums up how absurd its become nicely. England v France R union today: None of the french took a knee. 6 English didnt take it. Pretty certain none of the black players took it, but i may be incorrect. It looked rather feeble. Wow, what a difference, the great, often classier superior sport of rugby. Ha! Vive le France! Some black people are sick of being seen as a victim. Maybe they're sick to death of white middle class metaphorically 'patting them on the head' and going 'ahhh'. I could ask why the deadly dull,virtue signalling liberals don't do for our white working class,as they do our black and brown people? Eg,a foreign country gets an apparent bad deal somewhere on earth and up they jump,as uppity as you like. Liberal UK ask,why are you wrecking the neighbourhood? What bothers? It's your culture is'nt it. Oh,me too,I hate Israel. Yes,Churchill was an evil rascist. Hmmm.I understand and I'll make sure I talk about it at my next dinner party. The dreaded awful white working class dare to voice an opinion of discontent and our stinking ,virtue signalling liberal hypocrites point and scream at them "rascist scum"!"Ban them"!""Shut them down"! Get BLM out of our game.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Dec 7, 2020 9:04:13 GMT
BLM have changed their name,but I believe they will still sometimes use BLM. They are now registered as The Black Liberation Movement UK. Sounds like a Monty Python sketch!? I believe they're trying to get into a more mainstream organised political party. That's their and anyone's right. It's also a right to oppose it.
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Post by basel on Dec 7, 2020 9:19:45 GMT
BLM have changed their name,but I believe they will still sometimes use BLM. They are now registered as The Black Liberation Movement UK. Sounds like a Monty Python sketch!? I believe they're trying to get into a more mainstream organised political party. That's their and anyone's right. It's also a right to oppose it. Yes yes,just pointing out The Black Liberation Movement UK are the same group as BLM and I think both names are to be used.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 9:36:12 GMT
Wow, what a difference, the great, often classier superior sport of rugby. Ha! Vive le France! Some black people are sick of being seen as a victim. Maybe they're sick to death of white middle class metaphorically 'patting them on the head' and going 'ahhh'. I could ask why the deadly dull,virtue signalling liberals don't do for our white working class,as they do our black and brown people? Eg,a foreign country gets an apparent bad deal somewhere on earth and up they jump,as uppity as you like. Liberal UK ask,why are you wrecking the neighbourhood? What bothers? It's your culture is'nt it. Oh,me too,I hate Israel. Yes,Churchill was an evil rascist. Hmmm.I understand and I'll make sure I talk about it at my next dinner party. The dreaded awful white working class dare to voice an opinion of discontent and our stinking ,virtue signalling liberal hypocrites point and scream at them "rascist scum"!"Ban them"!""Shut them down"! Get BLM out of our game. The treatment of lower income groups in the UK is a political issue not a racial one. So if you want to raise this then personally I applaud you, however attempting to do that on the back of petty nationalism, as you have done, achieves nothing. It's vacuous. Like clapping for key workers.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,126
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 7, 2020 10:38:04 GMT
I note that the BBC are not covering the Millwall manager's comments in any detail and are totally ignoring the Millwall players joint statement. How odd. Um, the BBC have been ignoring what it wants for years! They are extremely poor at reporting objectiveness. I thought the initial BBC report was biased, largely ignoring what the Millwall manager said and completely ignoring the Millwall joint team statement. So the updated version... completely takes out any mention of what the Millwall manager said. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55207420Surprise surprise, it's a longer piece quoting extensively from Derby players, manager and first team coach. All happily quoting the BBC "line". It doesn't help. The BBC isn't 'winning' anyone over. If anything it is increasing division and emboldening racists. A new strategy to tackle disgusting racism within the game is required.
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Post by basel on Dec 7, 2020 10:52:22 GMT
Ha! Vive le France! Some black people are sick of being seen as a victim. Maybe they're sick to death of white middle class metaphorically 'patting them on the head' and going 'ahhh'. I could ask why the deadly dull,virtue signalling liberals don't do for our white working class,as they do our black and brown people? Eg,a foreign country gets an apparent bad deal somewhere on earth and up they jump,as uppity as you like. Liberal UK ask,why are you wrecking the neighbourhood? What bothers? It's your culture is'nt it. Oh,me too,I hate Israel. Yes,Churchill was an evil rascist. Hmmm.I understand and I'll make sure I talk about it at my next dinner party. The dreaded awful white working class dare to voice an opinion of discontent and our stinking ,virtue signalling liberal hypocrites point and scream at them "rascist scum"!"Ban them"!""Shut them down"! Get BLM out of our game. The treatment of lower income groups in the UK is a political issue not a racial one. So if you want to raise this then personally I applaud you, however attempting to do that on the back of petty nationalism, as you have done, achieves nothing. It's vacuous. Like clapping for key workers. BLM is political,blatant,but you support that. Pointing out the hypocrisy of UK liberal white middle class is not "nationalism". Black people is a race of people, in this discussion, right? But not all black people are the same or want the same thing.They have different opinions. Individuals. So,in that case,surely you can argue white working class is a race? Anyway,I don't particularly care one way or the other.I'm just sick of the white working class being demonized by so many others in this country. Eg,it was the dirty unwashed,racist, thick of s**t that voted Leave.Apparently. CHAV and Gammon scum. All promoted by virtue signalling hypocrites trying to shut down people's opinion and voice.Dictate the narrative,take the phoney moral high ground and 'shame' opposition. The Millwall fans that booed,we'll apparently they were too thick to know why they were booing,so they must be racist. It does'nt wash anymore.
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