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Post by CabbagePatchBlues on Dec 6, 2020 10:56:32 GMT
It should be made compulsory at all sporting events until such time as the overt racists no longer find it amusing to throw banana skins, make monkey grunts and gestures and slag off black players, and the penny finally drops for the covert "I'm not racist, but ..." racists. What I find most appalling is the fact we have to pass laws to enforce things that should be on everyone's decency radar. Good way of creating booing at every sporting event in the country. That shows just how much it's needed
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 6, 2020 10:58:46 GMT
99.99% - But that's only 0.2 of a person?!? Anyway, I agree that there will be a % of supporters (quite possibly a majority) who don't know about the political leadership of the BLM movement. (As for discussions about Marxism and other left and right wing extreme political ideologies - that can go into a separate thread). Here's what the Millwall manager has to say about it. www.fourfourtwo.com/news/gary-rowett-millwall-players-want-to-enact-change-instead-of-taking-the-knee-1607200105000Gary Rowett fears taking the knee is in danger of becoming an “empty” gesture after a number of fans booed when Millwall and Derby players showed their support for the Black Lives Matter movement. Millwall were welcoming supporters back to their ground for the first time since February, with 2,000 in attendance in south London for their first home match since the second lockdown ended. But their appearance, and Derby’s 1-0 victory, was overshadowed when a section of the crowd chose to boo both sides as players showed their support for the Black Lives Matter movement for racial equality. Twenty-one of the 22 players who started the game took the knee with the other, Derby’s Colin Kazim-Richards, raising his fist. "I think the club have done so many positive things in the community related to anti-discrimination through great initiatives. It’s a club that works incredibly hard to enact change and do something about situations we all feel we need to be more proactive on. We’re all disappointed we’re having to come in and talk about it.” However, Rowett revealed his players feel more can be done to tackle discrimination and racism. He added: “The players have released a statement together and said they don’t support it [taking the knee] as a political message but support anti-discrimination. Moving forward, like a lot of clubs, they would prefer not to take the knee and actually enact change. They want to be proactive rather than it being a gesture, which a lot of clubs are now saying is perhaps empty. That’s not my consideration, but they now feel that gesture is in danger of being empty.” I note that the BBC are not covering the Millwall manager's comments in any detail and are totally ignoring the Millwall players joint statement. How odd. My clumsy language, epping (though I think you're being a tad over-scrupulous 😉) Here's an edited version: I'll wager my pocket-money that the majority of those booing at Millwall, have no evidence that BLM is Marxist-led, and most, in all probability, could not define (without Googling) Marxism. Nevertheless, I respect your stance on the 'kneeling' malarkey, and perhaps like the vapid Thursday-Johnson edict that the NHS should be clapped, it has made its point and should be laid to rest. #UTG I thing we are sort of agreed, and that is a good thing. I don't like the current polarisation of the debate. Calling people racists for not approving of the 'taking of the knee' helps no-one. "If you're not with us, you are against us" is an equally unhelpful edict. Without getting too pedantic - I would add that we don't need evidence that the BLM leadership is Marxist led. They have said it themselves. nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/Some people would then say "what is wrong with Marxism"? And that thread would belong in General Chat. And I'd have to get Bambi back on the forum. Yikes!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 11:00:46 GMT
I agree. What if the irony of standing up for all those things means you do just that. And not take the knee? Just because you don't conform to the gesture doesn't mean automatically you don't agree with inclusion, anti discrimination, and racism? Why can't anyone do this their way? Well your questions are to do with a completely different matter than the booing I was addressing. If you truly believe in showing solidarity, standing up for inclusion, and standing up against discrimination and racism, then of course you can do it in your own way. But if you do truly believe in showing solidarity, standing up for inclusion, and standing up against discrimination and racism, then you wouldn't disagree with or be against the action the players are taking. Thankfully taking the knee doesn't apply to those on the terraces, as a fair few on here would have trouble getting back up again.
🤣
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Dec 6, 2020 11:01:58 GMT
Cool, we disagree. Sport brings us together, I love cricket too. Sport will unite. Politics will always divide. Sport divides as well, as we live in a 2 team city.... We're watching the same sport.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 11:14:41 GMT
It should be made compulsory at all sporting events until such time as the overt racists no longer find it amusing to throw banana skins, make monkey grunts and gestures and slag off black players, and the penny finally drops for the covert "I'm not racist, but ..." racists. What I find most appalling is the fact we have to pass laws to enforce things that should be on everyone's decency radar. Good way of creating booing at every sporting event in the country. Only by idiots
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syg
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Post by syg on Dec 6, 2020 11:21:00 GMT
Good way of creating booing at every sporting event in the country. That shows just how much it's needed Why? If you think taking the knee is going to reduce racism then you are wrong. If you think that it is raising awareness of racism, well how much awareness is needed. All its doing is annoying people, pointless politically correct rubbish with clubs fearful of stopping it due bad PR possibly leading to loss of sponsorship.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 11:21:25 GMT
My clumsy language, epping (though I think you're being a tad over-scrupulous 😉) Here's an edited version: I'll wager my pocket-money that the majority of those booing at Millwall, have no evidence that BLM is Marxist-led, and most, in all probability, could not define (without Googling) Marxism. Nevertheless, I respect your stance on the 'kneeling' malarkey, and perhaps like the vapid Thursday-Johnson edict that the NHS should be clapped, it has made its point and should be laid to rest. #UTG I thing we are sort of agreed, and that is a good thing. I don't like the current polarisation of the debate. Calling people racists for not approving of the 'taking of the knee' helps no-one. "If you're not with us, you are against us" is an equally unhelpful edict. Without getting too pedantic - I would add that we don't need evidence that the BLM leadership is Marxist led. They have said it themselves. nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/Some people would then say "what is wrong with Marxism"? And that thread would belong in General Chat. And I'd have to get Bambi back on the forum. Yikes! The Marist jibe is to literal in its interpretation of their intent. The question being asked is "what economic system led to and embraced the subjection of human beings to human trafficking and slavery? If one concludes it's the current one then no surprise that the victims promote a different system. The regurgitating of Daily Mail headlines with reference to reality is empty.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 11:22:03 GMT
That shows just how much it's needed Why? If you think taking the knee is going to reduce racism then you are wrong. If you think that it is raising awareness of racism, well how much awareness is needed. All its doing is annoying people, pointless politically correct rubbish with clubs fearful of stopping it due bad PR possibly leading to loss of sponsorship. You cannot be serious.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 11:26:37 GMT
My clumsy language, epping (though I think you're being a tad over-scrupulous 😉) Here's an edited version: I'll wager my pocket-money that the majority of those booing at Millwall, have no evidence that BLM is Marxist-led, and most, in all probability, could not define (without Googling) Marxism. Nevertheless, I respect your stance on the 'kneeling' malarkey, and perhaps like the vapid Thursday-Johnson edict that the NHS should be clapped, it has made its point and should be laid to rest. #UTG I thing we are sort of agreed, and that is a good thing. I don't like the current polarisation of the debate. Calling people racists for not approving of the 'taking of the knee' helps no-one. "If you're not with us, you are against us" is an equally unhelpful edict. Without getting too pedantic - I would add that we don't need evidence that the BLM leadership is Marxist led. They have said it themselves.nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/Some people would then say "what is wrong with Marxism"? And that thread would belong in General Chat. And I'd have to get Bambi back on the forum. Yikes! If you check the Black Lives Matter website, their goals are clearly articulated, focusing on the issues of social, racial, gender, environmental and criminal justice. I have scrutinised it. There is no statement, as you say. It wouldn't be a surprise if The Telegraph said it. Here: blacklivesmatter.com/ Incidentally epps, I haven't called anyone racist for not 'taking the knee' - I did use a throwaway line on the match thread: "Good old Millwall, always rely on them for some Saturday afternoon racism."
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 6, 2020 11:43:34 GMT
I thing we are sort of agreed, and that is a good thing. I don't like the current polarisation of the debate. Calling people racists for not approving of the 'taking of the knee' helps no-one. "If you're not with us, you are against us" is an equally unhelpful edict. Without getting too pedantic - I would add that we don't need evidence that the BLM leadership is Marxist led. They have said it themselves.nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/Some people would then say "what is wrong with Marxism"? And that thread would belong in General Chat. And I'd have to get Bambi back on the forum. Yikes! If you check the Black Lives Matter website, their goals are clearly articulated, focusing on the issues of social, racial, gender, environmental and criminal justice. I have scrutinised it. There is no statement, as you say. It wouldn't be a surprise if The Telegraph said it. Here: blacklivesmatter.com/Incidentally epps, I haven't called anyone racist for not 'taking the knee' - I did use a throwaway line on the match thread: "Good old Millwall, always rely on them for some Saturday afternoon racism." Apologies Darlo - I wasn't implying you said that... certain people seem to have it in their heads that if you disapprove of taking the knee - you are de facto a racist. As for the BLM web-site, I do wonder if their articulated goals in 2020 correspond to their 2015 core values.
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 6, 2020 12:09:38 GMT
I thing we are sort of agreed, and that is a good thing. I don't like the current polarisation of the debate. Calling people racists for not approving of the 'taking of the knee' helps no-one. "If you're not with us, you are against us" is an equally unhelpful edict. Without getting too pedantic - I would add that we don't need evidence that the BLM leadership is Marxist led. They have said it themselves. nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/Some people would then say "what is wrong with Marxism"? And that thread would belong in General Chat. And I'd have to get Bambi back on the forum. Yikes! The Maxrist jibe is to literal in its interpretation of their intent. The question being asked is "what economic system led to and embraced the subjection of human beings to human trafficking and slavery? If one concludes it's the current one then no surprise that the victims promote a different system. The regurgitating of Daily Mail headlines with reference to reality is empty. We're probably veering off into General Chat territory. But the answer to your question (that you allege is being asked - I don't recall it popping up in this thread), is as you know, 'the free market'. The free market itself didn't lead to the abhorrent slave trade, I think that is more a reflection of appallingly bad Government. There isn't really any alternative to the free market - the one that exists everywhere in the world apart from North Korea, where mass starvation and oppression of the population is so very popular. The conclusion I would draw is that people need to work within the existing structure, rather than promote a completely different alternative. Anything remotely radical (I actually didn't have a problem with quite a lot of the last Labour manifesto) - just does not garner enough support to gain power. I don't read the Daily Mail. Citizen Smith was a comedy. Have a nice day and everyone play nicely. I hope you're keeping well oldie.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 12:22:58 GMT
If you check the Black Lives Matter website, their goals are clearly articulated, focusing on the issues of social, racial, gender, environmental and criminal justice. I have scrutinised it. There is no statement, as you say. It wouldn't be a surprise if The Telegraph said it. Here: blacklivesmatter.com/Incidentally epps, I haven't called anyone racist for not 'taking the knee' - I did use a throwaway line on the match thread: "Good old Millwall, always rely on them for some Saturday afternoon racism." Apologies Darlo - I wasn't implying you said that... certain people seem to have it in their heads that if you disapprove of taking the knee - you are de facto a racist. As for the BLM web-site, I do wonder if their articulated goals in 2020 correspond to their 2015 core values. No problem, epps More of this for me I think 🤐 Now, who wants to discuss that 1950s football was ripped asunder with Marxism 😎
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 12:24:00 GMT
On whether BLM are Marxists or extremists, I beg to differ. Writing as an actual Marxist and extremist, I do not recognise the BLM convenors and leaders as Marxist, or even always as extremists.
I do think they are small-minded, infantile, and self-defeating.
Enforced compliance with anti-racism is breeding, evangelising, and radicalising racists. I hate racism, and want radical action to break racism. I just have the intellect to understand that enforcing activism and enforcing my opinion as dogma will galvanise and vindicate the opposite view.
The BLM leaders, and their servile liberal media sycophants, don't understand that.
A mixture of both not very racist and actually very racist football supporters booing the enforced practice of the new religion was an entirely foreseeable reaction.
If you think you can reach people intellectually by compelling them to kneel before you, for a set of political ideals I might believe in, but which you don't fully understand, then you don't know people.
We used to persuade by explaining why. Now we just tell people that they have to believe.
It's just bulls***.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 13:14:41 GMT
On whether BLM are Marxists or extremists, I beg to differ. Writing as an actual Marxist and extremist, I do not recognise the BLM convenors and leaders as Marxist, or even always as extremists. I do think they are small-minded, infantile, and self-defeating. Enforced compliance with anti-racism is breeding, evangelising, and radicalising racists. I hate racism, and want radical action to break racism. I just have the intellect to understand that enforcing activism and enforcing my opinion as dogma will galvanise and vindicate the opposite view. The BLM leaders, and their servile liberal media sycophants, don't understand that. A mixture of both not very racist and actually very racist football supporters booing the enforced practice of the new religion was an entirely foreseeable reaction. If you think you can reach people intellectually by compelling them to kneel before you, for a set of political ideals I might believe in, but which you don't fully understand, then you don't know people. We used to persuade by explaining why. Now we just tell people that they have to believe. It's just bulls***. What a great post. I agree with most of it as a wishy-washy centrist liberal😉😉
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Dec 6, 2020 14:27:58 GMT
I've said before that I think the whole taking a knee thing has become meaningless. I forget the guys name (Kapernick?) but when he first did it, it had impact and really shook things up. When UK footballers do it , it's so staged it's cringeworthy. Blow whistle, kneel down, blow whistle, back up again. However, this BLM is Marxist is a pile of horse s**te. Yes an organisation may have grown out of it, but does anyone really believe that the Americans who first did it and now the Premier League footballers who do it are actually supporting Marxism? Give me a break..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 15:28:22 GMT
"Booing" seems a bit silly. Same as "booing" your own team when they are playing badly. It's just a bit crass. Me, personally... when I'm back at the Mem and 'if' both teams are required to 'take the knee'. I think I'll just turn my back for 30 seconds. I don't think anyone should be forced to 'take a knee' for a Marxist led organisation (or for that matter, a Fascist led organisation). I hate political extremism. But that's just me. Everyone play nicely. UTG. The f*ckwits and racists seemed to have recently received Facebook medicine degrees, followed in days with virology and epidemiology doctorates from Google, and give the impression they have received all four volumes of Das Kapital in their cornflakes today. I'll wager my pocket-money that the majority of those booing at Millwall, have no evidence that BLM is Marxist-led, and could not define (without Googling) Marxism. I'll start: Very basically ( I can get much, much more Daedalian with regard to Marxism), and over-simplifying Marxism, it usually means analyzing social change through an economic lens, with the assumption that the rich and the poor should become more equal; oh, and plenty of booing footballers who kneel for a couple of seconds before a football match to show support for "black lives" - all very straightforward, really. Old Trot/Marxist here...#UTG We’ve been brought up to fear equality in this country. I wonder why? And for whose benefit? It’s a real head scratcher that one....
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syg
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Post by syg on Dec 6, 2020 15:35:21 GMT
This sums up how absurd its become nicely.
England v France R union today: None of the french took a knee. 6 English didnt take it. Pretty certain none of the black players took it, but i may be incorrect. It looked rather feeble.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 15:42:58 GMT
Good way of creating booing at every sporting event in the country. That shows just how much it's needed If an empty gesture that people are told to perform is the answer then I would say society doesn’t understand the question.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 15:47:57 GMT
This sums up how absurd its become nicely. England v France R union today: None of the french took a knee. 6 English didnt take it. Pretty certain none of the black players took it, but i may be incorrect. It looked rather feeble. Actually that’s good- and progress in my book. Variety of approach in many ways gives it more meaning. Does that mean they are all racist? Of course not, just that they are participating how they wish to. Seeing everyone on both sides take a knee because fear of public shaming and/or their employer tells them to means they can’t do anything else and it becomes hollow to the spectators. We know some of them, at the very least, are going through the motions and it’s not genuine. When gestures become predictable and mechanical they become token and pointless so to see some individualism on display is a step forward and gives it some meaning again.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Dec 6, 2020 16:01:37 GMT
What a potentially divisive thread, brilliantly incorporating different opinions that hasn't yet been transformed into a trash match of scoring points and cheap shots yet. So far.
I'm sure we don't all agree, but fair play to everyone for their conduct so far.
Maybe because we won so well yesterday provoking a good mood, but well done everyone for contributing with respect.
Off topic, I know, but pertinent because so many other threads have descended into despair...!
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