jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313 
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Post by jackthegas on Nov 4, 2015 13:28:27 GMT
I think James Tredwell is knashing his teeth somewhere. In fairness, the guy never let England down and he was a very good substitute for when Swann couldn't play. Moving Root to opener is a silly idea. He's No.1 in the World right now. Why mess with that? Tredwell's 1st Class record isn't really that good though and he's getting on a bit so didn't fit the image of an England team in rebuild. Not to mention that he lost his place in a poor Kent side this summer and went out on loan so he wasn't exactly banging down the door for this tour party. He only played 2 Tests, for the second one in the West Indies last winter he failed to win us the game on a 5th day wicket against a very average lineup which is known to have a major weakness v spin; I think that combined with his relative age probably sealed his fate as a Test prospect. He was just seen a conservative option. Where I think he does have a grievance is as a one day player - he deserved more chances there than he got; best one day spinner in the country but doesn't have enough variation in the long format. The next cabs off the rank spin wise are Riley at Kent (who took Tredwell's place) and Lilley at Lancs but neither is really ready. Jack Leach at Somerset ended the season very well and could get himself in the frame with a good season. I don't really think we currently have anyone who would have made the difference in this series though really. Tredwell got his place back last season didn't he? I don't think Riley had a great season but he is young and has plenty of time to develop (if the system allows). I don't really rate Lilley. Kerrigan keeps him out of the 4 day side and Lilley is more of a T20 specialist, much like Parry. From the little I've seen of them I like Josh Poysden at Warwickshire and the wonderfully named Mason Crane although my guess is that both may find their progress stunted by the experienced men they shadow. Crane is a teenager too so it could be 10 years before he reaches his potential. I like Moeen but I don't understand his role in this side. Despite a difficult start I think Rashid is a more likely match winner. That leaves Moeen as the man to try and contain, which is more typically and English off spinners role anyway. He struggles with this though. If we were picking a short term stop gap option to help us try and win in the UAE I think Gareth Batty would have been as good an option as any. Players seem to get to 24/25, the age at which they should be nearing their prime, and then get released never to be seen again. Dockrell is a good example. I have seen plenty of him and he is a good bowler. I know Somerset have got options but 15 years ago he'd have been picked up by a County as a second spinner. Azeem Rafiq is another example. Captained England under 19s, Averaged 35 with the ball in first class cricket for Yorkshire, picked up an injury which stunted his development, left in search of games and then disappeared off the face of the Earth. The main problem as I see it is that counties like Gloucester, Leicester, Northants, Derby and Glamorgan can't afford to take a punt on a raw spinner. Both the players I mentioned above would be better for Gloucester in 4 day cricket than Tom Smith and Jack Taylor but a bang average medium pacer offers a far greater and more instant reward than a spinner who might take 5 years of nurturing. That added to the fact that when a pitch offers an abnormal amount of spin, counties get fined makes it bloody tough. I think I'm right in saying that Counties are financially rewarded for having young, english qualified home grown players which also acts as a disincentive for solid county pros. Would cricketers like Martin Ball still play hundreds of first class matches in this era? The counties with money spend it on experienced internationals (Batty, Jeetan Patel, Rehman, Ajmal) rather than giving their own a chance, with a few exceptions, notably Lancashire, Hampshire and Yorkshire. I think we have to find a way of playing more first class cricket in July and August, or even, dare I say it, playing a couple of games in March in the UAE or in the Caribbean. |
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irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
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Post by irishrover on Nov 4, 2015 18:12:49 GMT
Tredwell's 1st Class record isn't really that good though and he's getting on a bit so didn't fit the image of an England team in rebuild. Not to mention that he lost his place in a poor Kent side this summer and went out on loan so he wasn't exactly banging down the door for this tour party. He only played 2 Tests, for the second one in the West Indies last winter he failed to win us the game on a 5th day wicket against a very average lineup which is known to have a major weakness v spin; I think that combined with his relative age probably sealed his fate as a Test prospect. He was just seen a conservative option. Where I think he does have a grievance is as a one day player - he deserved more chances there than he got; best one day spinner in the country but doesn't have enough variation in the long format. The next cabs off the rank spin wise are Riley at Kent (who took Tredwell's place) and Lilley at Lancs but neither is really ready. Jack Leach at Somerset ended the season very well and could get himself in the frame with a good season. I don't really think we currently have anyone who would have made the difference in this series though really. Tredwell got his place back last season didn't he? I don't think Riley had a great season but he is young and has plenty of time to develop (if the system allows). I don't really rate Lilley. Kerrigan keeps him out of the 4 day side and Lilley is more of a T20 specialist, much like Parry. From the little I've seen of them I like Josh Poysden at Warwickshire and the wonderfully named Mason Crane although my guess is that both may find their progress stunted by the experienced men they shadow. Crane is a teenager too so it could be 10 years before he reaches his potential. I like Moeen but I don't understand his role in this side. Despite a difficult start I think Rashid is a more likely match winner. That leaves Moeen as the man to try and contain, which is more typically and English off spinners role anyway. He struggles with this though. If we were picking a short term stop gap option to help us try and win in the UAE I think Gareth Batty would have been as good an option as any. Players seem to get to 24/25, the age at which they should be nearing their prime, and then get released never to be seen again. Dockrell is a good example. I have seen plenty of him and he is a good bowler. I know Somerset have got options but 15 years ago he'd have been picked up by a County as a second spinner. Azeem Rafiq is another example. Captained England under 19s, Averaged 35 with the ball in first class cricket for Yorkshire, picked up an injury which stunted his development, left in search of games and then disappeared off the face of the Earth. The main problem as I see it is that counties like Gloucester, Leicester, Northants, Derby and Glamorgan can't afford to take a punt on a raw spinner. Both the players I mentioned above would be better for Gloucester in 4 day cricket than Tom Smith and Jack Taylor but a bang average medium pacer offers a far greater and more instant reward than a spinner who might take 5 years of nurturing. That added to the fact that when a pitch offers an abnormal amount of spin, counties get fined makes it bloody tough. I think I'm right in saying that Counties are financially rewarded for having young, english qualified home grown players which also acts as a disincentive for solid county pros. Would cricketers like Martin Ball still play hundreds of first class matches in this era? The counties with money spend it on experienced internationals (Batty, Jeetan Patel, Rehman, Ajmal) rather than giving their own a chance, with a few exceptions, notably Lancashire, Hampshire and Yorkshire. I think we have to find a way of playing more first class cricket in July and August, or even, dare I say it, playing a couple of games in March in the UAE or in the Caribbean. I pretty much agree with all of that. Yes, Riley and Lilley have yet to massively impress and look quite raw though to be fair to Riley Kent have not exactly been putting him in situations where he had a chance properly influence the game because they were awful last year. I didn't know Tredwell had gotten back in their side but I think the basic point about Tredwell and Batty is right; the reason they're not out there is because we're trying to build a side and they're not likely to play much of a role beyond a temporary specialist in Asian conditions. The problem with developing Rashid is that we'd had 8 years to develop Rashid! I think England have completely messed him around because they couldn't figure out what to do with him. Definitely a more likely match winner but if we'd actually had a proper strategy for him instead of changing our minds every 6 months we might have a far more finished article than we have now. As it was it took England to push him to the brink of chucking it in before something was finally done and he's emerged a very good player but possibly too late given the gestation period of leg spinners. His re-emergence did for Rafiq as you pointed out. The guy went from Captaining Yorkishire at 20 to struggling to get a contract. - staggering mismanagement of a prospect that was once considered 'can't miss'. You are right that Moeen has the role by default and I think he is entitled to feel pretty pissed off with the way England have treated him to be honest. 'Go and be the default 1st choice spinner', 'go and be the emergency opener'. What he should obviously be is a lower middle order batsman and backup spinner. He could well end up out of the side having really not done very much wrong beyond being asked to be a square peg in a round hole which is pretty tough. You are right on the spin issue - I don't think we have a clue what we are doing. Spinners develop later - I always thought Glos should have persevered with Banerjee for example; not outstanding but once you've made the investment why get rid of a player just when they're entering the prime of their career. Happens all the time - hopefully someone picks up Dockrell who chose the wrong county to go to in my opinion - chances for spinners at Taunton have always been a bit limited and Somerset had a good batch of spin prospects coming through. |
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 6:29:33 GMT
This is a total shambles (59/6).
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Post by Bernard Briggs on Nov 5, 2015 8:03:03 GMT
Good first couple of days for England. The seamers were immense yesterday and the spinners did just enough (although aided by some poor cricket from Pakistan). I suspect the wickets they gifted Moeen were as a result of the pressure Anderson and Broad were able to exert. I thought England batted really well today. On pitches like this you have to keep the opposition in the field and win the battle of attrition. It's hot and we are bound to get some lose stuff tomorrow afternoon if we can bat well tomorrow morning. It's scandalous that Taylor was left out for so long even more so as he's exactly what England need in the middle order. We have an aggressive middle order and it's important that the players compliment each other. I think Bairstow has done well too. I think 6 is a good place for him. He's a bit too bottom handed but he's gritty and I think that, with the right support, he can become a good test match cricketer. His keeping is under rated too. Looking to the future, I would ask Root to open in South Africa. I know I'll be on my own here but I think he's ready for the challenge and his technique has tightened up since he last did it. He might end up only average 40 as opposed to 50 at the top of the order but we have options for the middle order. Ballance could come back into the side and he is capable of averaging 40 too. In my opinion, that's a better option than Root averaging 50 and Hayles averaging 20. I might be wrong but I just don't think Hayles is a test cricketer and there are no obvious other options. A top 5 of Cook, Root, Bell, Taylor and Ballance has 5 cricketers in positions they have all played throughout their career and with Baristow, Stokes and Moeen at 6-8 we'd have a nice balance. Personally I'm not convinced Hales is an international cricketer full-stop. England have a long history of getting massively carried away with a one-day player based on a single or a couple of dominant performances, I think that's the case with Hales. I just don't think he's quite up to it ultimately. It's a tricky one but I don't think I would put Root back up there; basically he's proved himself to be too good a player to open. He needs to be protected because he really is our engine room and right now it looks like he has a shot of being something very special indeed. I`ve been saying this, ever since the self inflicted debacle when we last toured Down Under. I thought from your previous threads that you were all in favour of promoting Root to open again. |
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Post by Bernard Briggs on Nov 5, 2015 11:21:02 GMT
I bow to your superior knowledge of the players in the County system  It just pains me to see Pakistan's fourth or fifth choice spinners turning it more than our best ! Be careful what you say, Nobby. Have you not been reading about Britain`s increasing surveillance culture? I was chatting on the phone to my brother about the cricket in Pakistan, and a MI5 agent interrupted to say that he thought Kevin Pietersen should be given one more chance. Loose lips sink ships, mate. |
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irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
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Post by irishrover on Nov 5, 2015 11:27:49 GMT
I bow to your superior knowledge of the players in the County system It just pains me to see Pakistan's fourth or fifth choice spinners turning it more than our best ! Be careful what you say, Nobby. Have you not been reading about Britain`s increasing surveillance culture? I was chatting on the phone to my brother about the cricket in Pakistan, and a MI5 agent interrupted to say that he thought Kevin Pietersen should be given one more chance. Loose lips sink ships, mate. No - my only argument on that was that I thought the original decision to try him as an opener was fair enough at the time as that is what he had been groomed for from a very early age. He has become a better overall batsman than I think was expected and right now only Cook and Root are consistent reliable performers and it would be madness for us to have them both at the top of the order I think. I'm not sure Joe Root would consider himself an opener anymore whereas he definitely did when he first broke into the England team. Someone who is that versatile should probably not be restricted to opening which is a specialist position Who should open though is still a massive question. The conundrum is that none of the crop of openers appear to be good enough and none of the batsmen who are good enough appear to be openers. Right now we might as well send in a nightwatchman to bat with Cook! |
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Post by Bernard Briggs on Nov 6, 2015 8:28:21 GMT
Only one opener, a number three who bats like he`s trying to eat soup with a fork, no wicket keeper, and two spinners, neither of whom look capable of even keeping one end quiet.
It`s going to be South Africa V Cook, Root, Broad and Anderson.
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irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
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Post by irishrover on Nov 6, 2015 11:07:15 GMT
Only one opener, a number three who bats like he`s trying to eat soup with a fork, no wicket keeper, and two spinners, neither of whom look capable of even keeping one end quiet. It`s going to be South Africa V Cook, Root, Broad and Anderson. Yes - but I think that was more or less the case against Australia as well. South Africa will be strong favourites but weirdly I think we have a better chance in that series than we did versus Pakistan. South Africa are a better team but our side should be more accustomed to the conditions than in the UAE and lack of quality spinner will also be less of an issue because SA don't really have one either. If (and it's a massive if) our middle order finds life a bit easier there and Wood stays fit I think we have a good chance of being competitive. If those things don't happen then South Africa will murder us. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Nov 6, 2015 17:52:03 GMT
I bow to your superior knowledge of the players in the County system It just pains me to see Pakistan's fourth or fifth choice spinners turning it more than our best ! Be careful what you say, Nobby. Have you not been reading about Britain`s increasing surveillance culture? I was chatting on the phone to my brother about the cricket in Pakistan, and a MI5 agent interrupted to say that he thought Kevin Pietersen should be given one more chance. Loose lips sink ships, mate. For God's sake man! You warn me about loose lips, yet you talk to your Brother over an open unsecured line? Is this better :- - .... .. ... / .. ... / .. -. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . |
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Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,549
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Post by Bridgeman on Nov 6, 2015 22:25:18 GMT
Be careful what you say, Nobby. Have you not been reading about Britain`s increasing surveillance culture? I was chatting on the phone to my brother about the cricket in Pakistan, and a MI5 agent interrupted to say that he thought Kevin Pietersen should be given one more chance. Loose lips sink ships, mate. No - my only argument on that was that I thought the original decision to try him as an opener was fair enough at the time as that is what he had been groomed for from a very early age. He has become a better overall batsman than I think was expected and right now only Cook and Root are consistent reliable performers and it would be madness for us to have them both at the top of the order I think. I'm not sure Joe Root would consider himself an opener anymore whereas he definitely did when he first broke into the England team. Someone who is that versatile should probably not be restricted to opening which is a specialist position Who should open though is still a massive question. The conundrum is that none of the crop of openers appear to be good enough and none of the batsmen who are good enough appear to be openers. Right now we might as well send in a nightwatchman to bat with Cook! Mind you Root was coming to the crease pretty early on in the Ashes so he might just as well have started as an opener....... |
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Post by Bernard Briggs on Nov 8, 2015 8:30:00 GMT
Be careful what you say, Nobby. Have you not been reading about Britain`s increasing surveillance culture? I was chatting on the phone to my brother about the cricket in Pakistan, and a MI5 agent interrupted to say that he thought Kevin Pietersen should be given one more chance. Loose lips sink ships, mate. For God's sake man! You warn me about loose lips, yet you talk to your Brother over an open unsecured line? Is this better :- - .... .. ... / .. ... / .. -. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . Yes, that is much better, Nobby. Apply it to your whole computer, and it will prevent the embarrassment of being discovered that you accidentally spent half an hour looking at www.lesbianmudwrestling.com. Again. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Nov 11, 2015 12:49:17 GMT
For God's sake man! You warn me about loose lips, yet you talk to your Brother over an open unsecured line? Is this better :- - .... .. ... / .. ... / .. -. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . Yes, that is much better, Nobby. Apply it to your whole computer, and it will prevent the embarrassment of being discovered that you accidentally spent half an hour looking at www.lesbianmudwrestling.com. Again. Why would I be embarrassed ? |
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Post by Bernard Briggs on Nov 15, 2015 8:07:40 GMT
Yes, that is much better, Nobby. Apply it to your whole computer, and it will prevent the embarrassment of being discovered that you accidentally spent half an hour looking at www.lesbianmudwrestling.com. Again. Why would I be embarrassed ? True enough. You weren`t embarrassed after all that business with the lorry driver from Eindhoven, so I don`t suppose this would bother you either. |
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