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Post by Bernard Briggs on Oct 9, 2015 8:41:02 GMT
According to the BBC website this morning, Pakistan A are 192/12 in their first innings.
Surely, the match referee needs to look into this.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Oct 9, 2015 10:38:35 GMT
That does sound ridiculous but it will be at England's request. It looks like they are trying to maximise limited preparation time by spending one day batting and one day bowling irrespective of what the opposition does.
I feel a bit sorry for the England team - when on earth do you get any time off? They've gone from a World Cup to an Ashes series and now straight into very back to back tours. If England win this series I think it will be a bigger achievement than winning the Ashes. Pakistan have been pretty much unbeatable in the UAE and in the current climate of international cricket home advantage seems to be everything. Last time around it was a low scoring series in which both sides had much better bowling than batting lineups, that'll probably be the case again. Pakistan's batting is really poor but their bowling is superb particularly in Asian conditions. England's attack is probably not as strong as last time when Swann and Panesar were a major threat. We're going to find out just how good Moeen and Rashid actually are because they will be up against a leggy who has taken 61 wickets in 10 Tests and a wily left arm spinner who is also pilling up the wickets.
Question for England over who opens - they seem to be leaning towards Moeen. Good job he has a cool head and chilled out attitude because England have given him more roles than members of reduced Shakespeare company. It's ridiculous and I'm not sure that he's really cut out to be a Test opener - it's pointed out how much he plays an misses which suggests that he's not great against the moving ball. Nevertheless, his style is definitely suited to attacking the gaps in the field early on and getting us off to a fast start so maybe it will work. If he has enough about him to survive the he'll have 50 inside the first hour of the test match so you can see the attraction. I think they are reluctant to with Hales since his ODI performances leave doubts as to whether he is up to it. This is a big test for a lot of these younger batsman - are they up to the trial by spin they are going to get? I think we lose this series quite comfortably unless the ropey Pakistan batting (the fact they've called up Shoaib Malik shows how bare the cupboard is for Pakistan really) completely gives way. We will then hammer Pakistan in the reverse series next summer because that is the way test cricket seems to be going - win comfortably at home, lost comfortably away. If we break that trend then we really might have something in this group of players. |
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Oct 10, 2015 13:07:14 GMT
I'm sure Moeen will open. You're right that he flashes outside off too much to suggest he'll succeed against the new ball but I think he's confident enough to play his natural game which should help. The fact he gets in the team as a bowler right now takes some of the pressure off him so fingers crossed.
The other issue that I think England should address is who keeps. They obviously see something in Buttler but I don't think he can spin in first class cricket. Lyon had him on toast last summer. I think Bairstow is a better keeper too. I also think Taylor is one of our better players of spin and would add some grit to our otherwise aggressive middle order. I think Taylor should play regardless and I also think that on balance, I'd pick Bairstow and 6 and stokes at 7.
On paper it should be a close series but I agree with Irish. I can't see anything other than 3-0 to the hosts. I don't think our spinners offer enough control, I don't think cook captains spin well and I don't think we'll score enough runs.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Oct 11, 2015 16:25:41 GMT
I'm sure Moeen will open. You're right that he flashes outside off too much to suggest he'll succeed against the new ball but I think he's confident enough to play his natural game which should help. The fact he gets in the team as a bowler right now takes some of the pressure off him so fingers crossed. The other issue that I think England should address is who keeps. They obviously see something in Buttler but I don't think he can spin in first class cricket. Lyon had him on toast last summer. I think Bairstow is a better keeper too. I also think Taylor is one of our better players of spin and would add some grit to our otherwise aggressive middle order. I think Taylor should play regardless and I also think that on balance, I'd pick Bairstow and 6 and stokes at 7. On paper it should be a close series but I agree with Irish. I can't see anything other than 3-0 to the hosts. I don't think our spinners offer enough control, I don't think cook captains spin well and I don't think we'll score enough runs. The keeper question is interesting. With spin likely to prove critical they may well go with the guy they judge best with the gloves. I'd also like them to find a way of bringing Taylor back into the fold.
We'll see how it goes with Moeen. I suppose on one hand they don't really have anything to lose by giving him a go. It's not like they're replacing a productive position with an unproductive one. No one has been scoring in that slot of ages and so Moeen's bar for success is set pretty low.
I feel like the Pakistan batting lineup is sufficiently dodgy that I'm not quite prepared to pick 3-0 because I think England will be in all of the games so all it would take is one quality batting or bowling performance to turn a match in our favour. Admittedly that is probably more likely to come from Pakistan than from England but nevertheless I expect to have plenty of match winning opportunities. Definitely think Pakistan will win though - if their spinners are as good as they are cracked up to be (and to be honest I've never seen either of them bowl) then history suggests they'll make short work of the England batsmen and 3-0 could very well be on the cards.
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Post by Bernard Briggs on Oct 12, 2015 7:14:09 GMT
I'm sure Moeen will open. You're right that he flashes outside off too much to suggest he'll succeed against the new ball but I think he's confident enough to play his natural game which should help. The fact he gets in the team as a bowler right now takes some of the pressure off him so fingers crossed. The other issue that I think England should address is who keeps. They obviously see something in Buttler but I don't think he can spin in first class cricket. Lyon had him on toast last summer. I think Bairstow is a better keeper too. I also think Taylor is one of our better players of spin and would add some grit to our otherwise aggressive middle order. I think Taylor should play regardless and I also think that on balance, I'd pick Bairstow and 6 and stokes at 7. On paper it should be a close series but I agree with Irish. I can't see anything other than 3-0 to the hosts. I don't think our spinners offer enough control, I don't think cook captains spin well and I don't think we'll score enough runs. The keeper question is interesting. With spin likely to prove critical they may well go with the guy they judge best with the gloves. I'd also like them to find a way of bringing Taylor back into the fold.
We'll see how it goes with Moeen. I suppose on one hand they don't really have anything to lose by giving him a go. No? How about the important runs that he`s scored for us, batting lower down the order? We`ll lose them. We`ve tried this, haven`t we? Took Joe Root away from a position where he scored hundreds of runs, and stuck him in as an opener. Then, when it didn`t work, they dropped him. And now you want to do it with Moeen. Little wonder, you think we`re going to lose three nil. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Oct 12, 2015 16:04:18 GMT
The keeper question is interesting. With spin likely to prove critical they may well go with the guy they judge best with the gloves. I'd also like them to find a way of bringing Taylor back into the fold.
We'll see how it goes with Moeen. I suppose on one hand they don't really have anything to lose by giving him a go. No? How about the important runs that he`s scored for us, batting lower down the order? We`ll lose them. We`ve tried this, haven`t we? Took Joe Root away from a position where he scored hundreds of runs, and stuck him in as an opener. Then, when it didn`t work, they dropped him. And now you want to do it with Moeen. Little wonder, you think we`re going to lose three nil. Moeen's scored useful runs for sure but it's not really comparable with what Root was doing at that point. It's not like he's been racking up the 100s and been a bedrock player. He's been doing very well at 8 and clearly enjoys the freedom to play his shots but he has also often run out of partners, or at least been left with little choice but to slog out because he's batting with the tail - suggests he deserves a run higher up the order where he can develop proper innings. Moeen is replacing a guy who averaged 20 who himself replaced a guy who averaged 30 (largely off the back of 1 big score). The only other other candidate is by all accounts chronically out of form. Might not work but it doesn't seem like a particularly big risk especially as Moeen has extremely flexible in his England career. The Root decision itself was not a terrible call at the time - only in hindsight. The guy had been groomed to be a Test opener since he was 12 years old and was exceptionally successful in the position right the way through his development - that was considered his position and it was the one he wanted. The fact he failed in the role entailed a rethink but it wasn't something that was invented out of desperation; it was always the plan (for both player and management) that Root would open and there was no reason to think he'd struggle at the time. Players and selectors do need leeway to find the right role for people at the international level and it's not always the one you'd expect based on their development - doubly so when you're dealing with the top talent. Bradman was originally pegged as an opener. We shouldn't be losing out on runs from that bit of the order anyway on this tour - Rashid or Samit Patel shape up to be as good a Test Match number 8 as any other team in the world and you really shouldn't be planning your batting strategy around Number 8 being a key position. I'm not sure it's reasonable to suggest that a guy has scored a lot of runs at number 8 so he should stay at number 8. I think most people would probably say he deserves the chance to bat higher than 8 because it restricts his potential. Whether he should be opening is another question but I think Moeen's future as a Test Player will ultimately be as a batsman who bowls a bit so having him at Number 8 will eventually become a luxury (when we finally produce a half decent spinner) - for his own sake he needs to prove he can bat higher. |
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Post by Bernard Briggs on Oct 13, 2015 7:21:59 GMT
No? How about the important runs that he`s scored for us, batting lower down the order? We`ll lose them. We`ve tried this, haven`t we? Took Joe Root away from a position where he scored hundreds of runs, and stuck him in as an opener. Then, when it didn`t work, they dropped him. And now you want to do it with Moeen. Little wonder, you think we`re going to lose three nil. Moeen's scored useful runs for sure but it's not really comparable with what Root was doing at that point. It's not like he's been racking up the 100s and been a bedrock player. He's been doing very well at 8 and clearly enjoys the freedom to play his shots but he has also often run out of partners, or at least been left with little choice but to slog out because he's batting with the tail - suggests he deserves a run higher up the order where he can develop proper innings. Moeen is replacing a guy who averaged 20 who himself replaced a guy who averaged 30 (largely off the back of 1 big score). The only other other candidate is by all accounts chronically out of form. Might not work but it doesn't seem like a particularly big risk especially as Moeen has extremely flexible in his England career. The Root decision itself was not a terrible call at the time - only in hindsight. The guy had been groomed to be a Test opener since he was 12 years old and was exceptionally successful in the position right the way through his development - that was considered his position and it was the one he wanted. The fact he failed in the role entailed a rethink but it wasn't something that was invented out of desperation; it was always the plan (for both player and management) that Root would open and there was no reason to think he'd struggle at the time. Players and selectors do need leeway to find the right role for people at the international level and it's not always the one you'd expect based on their development - doubly so when you're dealing with the top talent. Bradman was originally pegged as an opener. We shouldn't be losing out on runs from that bit of the order anyway on this tour - Rashid or Samit Patel shape up to be as good a Test Match number 8 as any other team in the world and you really shouldn't be planning your batting strategy around Number 8 being a key position. I'm not sure it's reasonable to suggest that a guy has scored a lot of runs at number 8 so he should stay at number 8. I think most people would probably say he deserves the chance to bat higher than 8 because it restricts his potential. Whether he should be opening is another question but I think Moeen's future as a Test Player will ultimately be as a batsman who bowls a bit so having him at Number 8 will eventually become a luxury (when we finally produce a half decent spinner) - for his own sake he needs to prove he can bat higher. Well, the series has started, so we`ll see if Moeen can make a fist of his new role. We`ll have to agree to disagree on the advisability of moving players away from where they are successful. On the paucity of openers available to England; it`s a shame that Adam Lyth struggles against spin. And pace. And movement off the seam or in the air. Apart from that, he looked ok. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Oct 13, 2015 11:33:00 GMT
Moeen's scored useful runs for sure but it's not really comparable with what Root was doing at that point. It's not like he's been racking up the 100s and been a bedrock player. He's been doing very well at 8 and clearly enjoys the freedom to play his shots but he has also often run out of partners, or at least been left with little choice but to slog out because he's batting with the tail - suggests he deserves a run higher up the order where he can develop proper innings. Moeen is replacing a guy who averaged 20 who himself replaced a guy who averaged 30 (largely off the back of 1 big score). The only other other candidate is by all accounts chronically out of form. Might not work but it doesn't seem like a particularly big risk especially as Moeen has extremely flexible in his England career. The Root decision itself was not a terrible call at the time - only in hindsight. The guy had been groomed to be a Test opener since he was 12 years old and was exceptionally successful in the position right the way through his development - that was considered his position and it was the one he wanted. The fact he failed in the role entailed a rethink but it wasn't something that was invented out of desperation; it was always the plan (for both player and management) that Root would open and there was no reason to think he'd struggle at the time. Players and selectors do need leeway to find the right role for people at the international level and it's not always the one you'd expect based on their development - doubly so when you're dealing with the top talent. Bradman was originally pegged as an opener. We shouldn't be losing out on runs from that bit of the order anyway on this tour - Rashid or Samit Patel shape up to be as good a Test Match number 8 as any other team in the world and you really shouldn't be planning your batting strategy around Number 8 being a key position. I'm not sure it's reasonable to suggest that a guy has scored a lot of runs at number 8 so he should stay at number 8. I think most people would probably say he deserves the chance to bat higher than 8 because it restricts his potential. Whether he should be opening is another question but I think Moeen's future as a Test Player will ultimately be as a batsman who bowls a bit so having him at Number 8 will eventually become a luxury (when we finally produce a half decent spinner) - for his own sake he needs to prove he can bat higher. Well, the series has started, so we`ll see if Moeen can make a fist of his new role. We`ll have to agree to disagree on the advisability of moving players away from where they are successful. On the paucity of openers available to England; it`s a shame that Adam Lyth struggles against spin. And pace. And movement off the seam or in the air. Apart from that, he looked ok. It is weird that England have stopped producing decent, reliable openers. It used to be one of the 2 things that English cricket produced in droves; dour but reliable opening batsman and good quality medium fast seamers. Mainly to do with English conditions - to survive early on you have to be good against the moving ball which is excellent training for international cricket. In other countries that isn't the case so much. The real reason Moeen has been moved is because we don't have a better option, that's different from the Root situation which was an active decision taken to try and improve the lineup. Moeen is there largely because we are desperate and he is the most flexible and likely candidate. I don't think anyone is hugely confident that he'll be successful there but he probably has as much a chance of doing well in the UAE as anywhere else and if he builds up confidence then who knows. It should certainly make the first 10-15 overs of England batting more fun to watch. I'm sure he's delighted to have the opportunity to establish himself primarily as a batsman - personally I see him as a Test Match Number 6 though. Interesting that Rashid has been given the treatment in this game so far - it was an obvious strategy from Pakistan. Play out the seamers and go hard after Rashid thereby forcing England to go back to their seamers earlier, knackering them out and making them less effective. Interesting the Moeen has been treated with more respect than the Aussies gave him though - I wonder if he's bowling a more defensive line. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Oct 14, 2015 15:28:01 GMT
Decent start by Moeen and Cook as a partnership although it seems to have been achieved by Moeen curbing his natural attacking game. The right response on this wicket though. Shoaib Malik showed that if you dig in then the runs will steadily accumulate without doing anything particularly flash. Provided the pitch stays reasonably OK tomorrow and England follow this basic prescription they should be able to kill the game and render it an incredibly dull match. The ball is just doing absolutely nothing for anyone. I'd say that England's spin attack let them down but to be honest it clearly wasn't doing anything for them and the only reason Ali and Rashid bowled so many overs was because we clearly didn't want to knacker out the seamers with 2 Tests remaining so it's a bit harsh to be overly critical especially as Pakistan showed immense discipline in their approach. I think we settled to playing for the draw by lunchtime on Day 2.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 18:35:31 GMT
I think Radish is very unlucky to have recorded 'record' figures.
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Bridgeman
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Post by Bridgeman on Oct 14, 2015 23:29:20 GMT
According to Tuffers, Vaughan and Swann on 'test match special' Rashid said he was told to ball at the same speed throughout his overs.
Consequently, the batsmen didn't have to second guess how he was going to bowl as he rarely varied his delivery.
Tuffers and Swann suggested whoever was coaching him didn't know what they were talking about.
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Post by Bernard Briggs on Oct 15, 2015 7:23:54 GMT
Boycott has refused to criticize Rashid. That`s most strange; usually Boycott is the first to start apportioning blame. I`ve thought and thought and thought, but I can see no reason why he hasn`t in Rashid`s case. Can anyone else help?
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Oct 15, 2015 12:43:53 GMT
Boycott has refused to criticize Rashid. That`s most strange; usually Boycott is the first to start apportioning blame. I`ve thought and thought and thought, but I can see no reason why he hasn`t in Rashid`s case. Can anyone else help? Yes it's quite simple really - he plays for Yorkshire!
If you listen to Boycott there's a pretty consistent strain of going much easier on Yorkshire players - the guy is after all President of the club. It is a bit of a disgrace though - he and Vaughan sit there talking up all Yorkshire's prospects and talking down everybody else. This would be a lot more annoying if it wasn't for the fact that in doing this they're normally right. Most of the best English cricket prospects in recent years have come out of Yorkshire who have both a massive population to draw on and a top class academy that seems to be producing a production line of high quality players.
Having said that Swann was also pretty gentle on Rashid and to be fair they have a point - both he and Moeen were on a hiding to nothing trying to extract turn from a dead flat pitch on days 1 and 2. Nearly all spinners not named Murali, Warne or Kumble would have struggled. It's not like the Pakistan spinners have done any better so far and they have more pedigree and are working with a 3rd day pitch. It may start doing something on days 4 and 5 but I think it's fair to say that our spinners were basically thrown to the wolves in order to make sure that the seamers weren't overbowled. The stats are misleading - it's not that surprising that records in fruitlessness were set; we don't play in Asia very often, we certainly don't play on dead flat wickets like this very often, we don't normally need to sacrifice spinners like this because the seamers will have taken wickets at the top and teams score a lot more quickly than they used to. So there's not been many chances for England spinners to get knocked around like this over the years. Apart from the fact that neither spinner picked up cheap wickets at the end (largely because England went with seam instead of spin when Pakistan were slogging out) there's nothing particularly unusual about what happened to Rashid and Ali, it just looks extreme. This happens in Asia all the time - teams pick 2 spinners, lose the toss and then have them bowl the vast majority of the overs on flat decks while opponents run up score of 500+ declared. Harbhajan Singh has made a career out of this - 1st innings 1/2-150+ followed by match winning 6/7 wicket hauls in the 2nd.
Bloody tedious game this is though.
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Post by Bernard Briggs on Oct 16, 2015 7:28:57 GMT
I was just kidding. Boycott`s love of everything Yorkshire, hadn`t escaped me.
The groundsman must take a lot of the blame for the state of this game. Probably all of the blame really.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Oct 16, 2015 10:35:52 GMT
I was just kidding. Boycott`s love of everything Yorkshire, hadn`t escaped me. The groundsman must take a lot of the blame for the state of this game. Probably all of the blame really. Ah sorry - didn't pick that up! I do think they need to do something about it though. It's all very well having one guy bigging up all the Yorkshire players but Vaughan does it as well. The worst offender though is Alex Stewart - constantly marketing the players that he's an agent for, shouldn't be allowed on the radio as a commentator while he still has a vested interest like that.
Could be the groundsman but then you can only work with what you have and unless they're prepared to stump up the cash to bring in and upkeep the right type of soil then this is possibly what you get if you play cricket in a desert. Cricket just doesn't work if there's no balance between bat and ball though. Still no wicket taken by a spinner in the match and we're nearly at the end of Day 4 now! I'd like to know if that's ever happened before in a Test match played in Asia.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 12:50:35 GMT
A spinner has one now!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 13:20:06 GMT
A spinner has two now. A very tired dismissal in the end for Cook, but it was off a no ball which is frustrating.
The ball seems to be spinning now, so hopefully Radish can get a wicket in the second innings.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Oct 16, 2015 13:56:11 GMT
A spinner has two now. A very tired dismissal in the end for Cook, but it was off a no ball which is frustrating. The ball seems to be spinning now, so hopefully Radish can get a wicket in the second innings. England have put themselves in with a very, very outside chance of winning this game if it is turning. It's just about conceivable that Anderson and Broad take quick wickets with the new ball and then our spinner work through the rest. Extremely unlikely but Cook has done brilliantly to get us to a stage where we are the more likely of the 2 teams to win the game from a position where we conceded 500+ in the 1st innings. Credit where credit is due - this was an excellent England batting performance. Easy to say - flat deck, uninspiring attack etc but scoreboard pressure can be immense and England have been guilty of concentration meltdowns in these positions on past tours of Asia. This was an extremely disciplined professional batting display to match the one that Pakistan delivered. Doesn't make for very interesting cricket though. |
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jackthegas
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Post by jackthegas on Oct 16, 2015 19:15:53 GMT
Great effort from Cook and good to see the top order knuckling down and grinding it out. It was exactly what we needed no matter how tough this test has been to watch.
Shame Buttler got out when he did really as an hour of him batting tomorrow giving England a lead of 120 would have really put a very tired Pakistan side under pressure. Hopefully our spinners can take a couple of confidence boosting wickets tomorrow to set them up for the second test.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Oct 17, 2015 12:36:09 GMT
Wow - England have done just about everything they can to chase this game to a finish!
To even get in with any kind of shout of winning this game is excellent. Rashid and Moeen suddenly looking very very dangerous indeed on spitting wicket. Meanwhile brilliant cut to Waqar Younis (Pakistan coach) in the Pakistan dressing room who has a look that just says 'bloody typical Pakistan'! |
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