jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
|
Post by jackthegas on Oct 17, 2015 12:40:28 GMT
Isn't it exciting watching an English leg spinner bowling so well on a 5th day track. I'm not sure he's got the control to keep it tight on the first couple of days but Moeen could develop into that role. What he does give you though is someone who can run through the lower order and bowl magic balls as he game progresses. First English leggy to take a test five for in my life time for sure.
I don't think we have enough daylight to win the game but it's been a fantastic effort to give ourselves half a shout.
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Oct 17, 2015 12:45:10 GMT
Isn't it exciting watching an English leg spinner bowling so well on a 5th day track. I'm not sure he's got the control to keep it tight on the first couple of days but Moeen could develop into that role. What he does give you though is someone who can run through the lower order and bowl magic balls as he game progresses. First English leggy to take a test five for in my life time for sure. I don't think we have enough daylight to win the game but it's been a fantastic effort to give ourselves half a shout. To hell with it though - we have to give it a go. Promote Buttler of Stokes and try and smash your way there before the light goes. Hard with test lines and no doubt their spinners will bowl negative legside lines but it should be exciting stuff!
To be honest this kind of thing happens surprisingly often in Asian Test Matches - dreadfully dull 4 days followed by a thrilling finish.
|
|
jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
|
Post by jackthegas on Oct 17, 2015 12:53:00 GMT
Absolutely. The right decision to get Buttler up the order and charge but Pakistan will only bowl 10 overs or so here so the required rate is almost 10 and over.
Exciting though and all very encouraging
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Oct 17, 2015 13:49:56 GMT
Absolutely. The right decision to get Buttler up the order and charge but Pakistan will only bowl 10 overs or so here so the required rate is almost 10 and over. Exciting though and all very encouraging It was a great effort to get within 25 runs and a massive moral victory for England. What a great moment for Rashid and for Alistair Cook.
That's one of the best 'non winning' England performances I have seen. Just the general attitude was superb.
People will bleat about Pakistan's time wasting but England would have done exactly the same in the circumstances - it's a problem for cricket a whole to sort out.
|
|
|
Post by Bernard Briggs on Oct 18, 2015 7:04:28 GMT
I think, the groundsman deserves a great deal of credit. He knew what he was doing.
|
|
Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,549
|
Post by Bridgeman on Oct 18, 2015 10:12:53 GMT
Was watching it on the i-pad in the car just before going into the Mansfield game and was very tempted to watch it to the end but having travelled 170 miles thought perhaps I ought to get in there. Great effort by England though and so pleased for Rashid, well played.
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Oct 27, 2015 14:04:16 GMT
England are pretty unlucky to find themselves 1 down after 2 games. Outdated silly rules cost them an unlikely win in the 1st Test and 1 poor session did for them in the 2nd.
I'm impressed with how hard they are fighting - it's a really good team effort. Last time we were in UAE we arguably had a much stronger side based on the pedigree of the players but we put up no fight at all and were embarrasingly rolled over. The expression Mark Wood had when he was out yesterday said it all - these guys are giving everything and part of it is because not very many of them can be assured of a place in the side. The problem is Pakistan are still comfortably better than us in their own conditions so it's very tough. Also, in terms of the long term shape of the team we are none the wiser really. The side has been propped up by superb performances by Root and Cook; others have chipped in and (possibly with the exception of Buttler) no has let themselves down but ultimately we've not had the level of consistency or inspiration needed to win this kind of series. I remain of the view that we have too many 'handy' players and not enough clear difference makers.
The bowling attack issue is clear - we don't have a consistent spin threat. Not sure there's a lot to be done about that - you either have that player or you don't. Within the limitation England have done OK and Rashid nearly won them an unlikely victory. This is probably the best we have but it's unlikely to threaten a side like Pakistan very much who have so much experience against spinner. Many people have focused on Rashid's somewhat roller-coaster tour but really there should probably be more of a spotlight on Moeen - he's done OK but he's not looked like being a match winner in these conditions. It shows up his limitations really. Other than that I think we've done pretty well - Pakistan have shown immense respect to Anderson but he's still looked threatening, Broad seems to be carrying a knock and Wood has been something of revelation I think and might be the only player to have cemented his place in the side on this tour.
On the batting nothing has really changed. Opener is clearly still a problem position and I can't see Moeen opening in South Africa. In a peverse way it might make sense to give Hales his first shot at in in SA - the pitches will suit him and the pressure will be minimal on him personally. Right now we live and die on Root and Cook. Bell keeps doing just enough to retain his place without looking like returning to his best; Bairstow and Stokes are both capable of looking good, playing useful knocks but I still have the nerves that 5-8 can go down very quickly and I wouldn't put my house on any of them to consistently deliver or to get it done when the pressure is really properly on. At some point 'promising' has to be turned into consistent performance and for Bairstow, Stokes, Ali and Buttler they are not there yet and it needs to happen soon. I think there's a very good case for picking James Taylor - what is probably preventing that is that the collective mediocrity (as opposed to rank dreadful play) of our middle order makes it quite difficult to identity the obvious candidate for the axe which is why it looks like they're going to drop Buttler and give the gloves to Bairstow in the final test. But even that doesn't look much of a long term solution.
So decent stuff from England but the same questions remain really.
|
|
|
Post by Bernard Briggs on Oct 29, 2015 8:12:09 GMT
England are pretty unlucky to find themselves 1 down after 2 games. Outdated silly rules cost them an unlikely win in the 1st Test and 1 poor session did for them in the 2nd. I'm impressed with how hard they are fighting - it's a really good team effort. Last time we were in UAE we arguably had a much stronger side based on the pedigree of the players but we put up no fight at all and were embarrasingly rolled over. The expression Mark Wood had when he was out yesterday said it all - these guys are giving everything and part of it is because not very many of them can be assured of a place in the side. The problem is Pakistan are still comfortably better than us in their own conditions so it's very tough. Also, in terms of the long term shape of the team we are none the wiser really. The side has been propped up by superb performances by Root and Cook; others have chipped in and (possibly with the exception of Buttler) no has let themselves down but ultimately we've not had the level of consistency or inspiration needed to win this kind of series. I remain of the view that we have too many 'handy' players and not enough clear difference makers. The bowling attack issue is clear - we don't have a consistent spin threat. Not sure there's a lot to be done about that - you either have that player or you don't. Within the limitation England have done OK and Rashid nearly won them an unlikely victory. This is probably the best we have but it's unlikely to threaten a side like Pakistan very much who have so much experience against spinner. Many people have focused on Rashid's somewhat roller-coaster tour but really there should probably be more of a spotlight on Moeen - he's done OK but he's not looked like being a match winner in these conditions. It shows up his limitations really. Other than that I think we've done pretty well - Pakistan have shown immense respect to Anderson but he's still looked threatening, Broad seems to be carrying a knock and Wood has been something of revelation I think and might be the only player to have cemented his place in the side on this tour. On the batting nothing has really changed. Opener is clearly still a problem position and I can't see Moeen opening in South Africa. In a peverse way it might make sense to give Hales his first shot at in in SA - the pitches will suit him and the pressure will be minimal on him personally. Right now we live and die on Root and Cook. Bell keeps doing just enough to retain his place without looking like returning to his best; Bairstow and Stokes are both capable of looking good, playing useful knocks but I still have the nerves that 5-8 can go down very quickly and I wouldn't put my house on any of them to consistently deliver or to get it done when the pressure is really properly on. At some point 'promising' has to be turned into consistent performance and for Bairstow, Stokes, Ali and Buttler they are not there yet and it needs to happen soon. I think there's a very good case for picking James Taylor - what is probably preventing that is that the collective mediocrity (as opposed to rank dreadful play) of our middle order makes it quite difficult to identity the obvious candidate for the axe which is why it looks like they're going to drop Buttler and give the gloves to Bairstow in the final test. But even that doesn't look much of a long term solution. So decent stuff from England but the same questions remain really. Wouldn`t argue with any of that. Ali has always struck me as a decent lower order batsman, who can turn his arm over with a limited degree of success, but little more. Rashid needs more time; too early to say if he can make it at test level. The lack of even a vaguely competent opener, cost us the second test. An opening stand of 20 or 30 runs, and Moen batting in his usual place, and we would have gone into the decider all square. All "ifs" and "buts", I know.
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Oct 29, 2015 12:42:48 GMT
England are pretty unlucky to find themselves 1 down after 2 games. Outdated silly rules cost them an unlikely win in the 1st Test and 1 poor session did for them in the 2nd. I'm impressed with how hard they are fighting - it's a really good team effort. Last time we were in UAE we arguably had a much stronger side based on the pedigree of the players but we put up no fight at all and were embarrasingly rolled over. The expression Mark Wood had when he was out yesterday said it all - these guys are giving everything and part of it is because not very many of them can be assured of a place in the side. The problem is Pakistan are still comfortably better than us in their own conditions so it's very tough. Also, in terms of the long term shape of the team we are none the wiser really. The side has been propped up by superb performances by Root and Cook; others have chipped in and (possibly with the exception of Buttler) no has let themselves down but ultimately we've not had the level of consistency or inspiration needed to win this kind of series. I remain of the view that we have too many 'handy' players and not enough clear difference makers. The bowling attack issue is clear - we don't have a consistent spin threat. Not sure there's a lot to be done about that - you either have that player or you don't. Within the limitation England have done OK and Rashid nearly won them an unlikely victory. This is probably the best we have but it's unlikely to threaten a side like Pakistan very much who have so much experience against spinner. Many people have focused on Rashid's somewhat roller-coaster tour but really there should probably be more of a spotlight on Moeen - he's done OK but he's not looked like being a match winner in these conditions. It shows up his limitations really. Other than that I think we've done pretty well - Pakistan have shown immense respect to Anderson but he's still looked threatening, Broad seems to be carrying a knock and Wood has been something of revelation I think and might be the only player to have cemented his place in the side on this tour. On the batting nothing has really changed. Opener is clearly still a problem position and I can't see Moeen opening in South Africa. In a peverse way it might make sense to give Hales his first shot at in in SA - the pitches will suit him and the pressure will be minimal on him personally. Right now we live and die on Root and Cook. Bell keeps doing just enough to retain his place without looking like returning to his best; Bairstow and Stokes are both capable of looking good, playing useful knocks but I still have the nerves that 5-8 can go down very quickly and I wouldn't put my house on any of them to consistently deliver or to get it done when the pressure is really properly on. At some point 'promising' has to be turned into consistent performance and for Bairstow, Stokes, Ali and Buttler they are not there yet and it needs to happen soon. I think there's a very good case for picking James Taylor - what is probably preventing that is that the collective mediocrity (as opposed to rank dreadful play) of our middle order makes it quite difficult to identity the obvious candidate for the axe which is why it looks like they're going to drop Buttler and give the gloves to Bairstow in the final test. But even that doesn't look much of a long term solution. So decent stuff from England but the same questions remain really. Wouldn`t argue with any of that. Ali has always struck me as a decent lower order batsman, who can turn his arm over with a limited degree of success, but little more. Rashid needs more time; too early to say if he can make it at test level. The lack of even a vaguely competent opener, cost us the second test. An opening stand of 20 or 30 runs, and Moen batting in his usual place, and we would have gone into the decider all square. All "ifs" and "buts", I know. I have a huge vested interest in Moeen. I know his brother a bit (Kadeer - played at Glos about 7/8 years ago) and I went to his County debut in 2006. He's always been immensely talented but incredibly frustrating - the number of times you see him do the hard work and then give it away. The cricket romantic in me says that it would be fantastic if he became England's regular number 6 but the hardheaded reality suggests this is unlikely to come to fruition. He has a fantastic attitude and look completely unruffled by England's failure to find a regular sport for him - I suppose his flexibility is his great strength really. But sadly I think he may prove to be just a notch below the required standard - which would be a great shame because I don't think there's a more compelling cricketer to watch in the country. I don't think the 8 spot has made a massive difference and in truth I think that's one of the reasons they have done this in UAE. Basically if you look at how Test Matches there tend to go it's nearly always these kind of long drawn out middle order grinds so the value of the number 8 is probably less than in England anyway. If you have a situation where teams are regularly banging up 500+ then really that has to come from the top of the order. A quick 40/50 from number 8 isn't going to make much difference in those sort of scenarios whereas in games where teams are struggling to get 350 that can make all the difference. Put simply, if you're down to number 8 to deliver in Pakistan/UAE then more than likely you've already lost the game. Plus Rashid is an excellent number 8 anyway so it wasn't like we were really weakening the lineup there; it was Rashid that nearly saved that Test after all and in some way his batting is more suited to that kind of situation than Moeen's is anyway. The real issue though, as we've said, is the complete lack of an obvious opening candidate - we've just gone through them all. No particular reason to think Hales is the man to be honest - his ODI performances have been patchy. When he does well he's eye catching but he's not put a run of scores together really and looked hopelessly out of form v Aus which was basically him flunking his audition for the Test role. I don't think he had to do much to stake and claim and he couldn't even manage that. At least with Ali it was a fairly low risk option in the sense that even in failure he still offers the team something with the ball as well. The question with Rashid is whether he will ever be anything other than a specialist in Asian conditions. He might be a wicket taking threat but your spinner also needs to bowl long spells to take the pressure off the seamers so unless he a)starts taking 1st innings wickets or b)finds some way of restricting scoring I think he'll only ever be a 2nd spinner which is going to restrict his opportunities and that's a shame because it's fun to have a leg spinner in the side. It's a big risk picking 4.5 man attach with an expensive leg spinner as your only spin option. The best leg spinners in recent years have been capable of being economical in the 1st innings (Warne writes his own myth - he could be a very defensive bowler when the situation required it) or on unhelpful tracks and then filled their boots in favourable conditions. Rashid can definitely do the latter the question is whether he can do the rest of it I think.
|
|
jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
|
Post by jackthegas on Nov 2, 2015 13:33:31 GMT
Good first couple of days for England. The seamers were immense yesterday and the spinners did just enough (although aided by some poor cricket from Pakistan). I suspect the wickets they gifted Moeen were as a result of the pressure Anderson and Broad were able to exert.
I thought England batted really well today. On pitches like this you have to keep the opposition in the field and win the battle of attrition. It's hot and we are bound to get some lose stuff tomorrow afternoon if we can bat well tomorrow morning.
It's scandalous that Taylor was left out for so long even more so as he's exactly what England need in the middle order. We have an aggressive middle order and it's important that the players compliment each other. I think Bairstow has done well too. I think 6 is a good place for him. He's a bit too bottom handed but he's gritty and I think that, with the right support, he can become a good test match cricketer. His keeping is under rated too.
Looking to the future, I would ask Root to open in South Africa. I know I'll be on my own here but I think he's ready for the challenge and his technique has tightened up since he last did it. He might end up only average 40 as opposed to 50 at the top of the order but we have options for the middle order. Ballance could come back into the side and he is capable of averaging 40 too. In my opinion, that's a better option than Root averaging 50 and Hayles averaging 20. I might be wrong but I just don't think Hayles is a test cricketer and there are no obvious other options.
A top 5 of Cook, Root, Bell, Taylor and Ballance has 5 cricketers in positions they have all played throughout their career and with Baristow, Stokes and Moeen at 6-8 we'd have a nice balance.
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Nov 2, 2015 15:01:00 GMT
Good first couple of days for England. The seamers were immense yesterday and the spinners did just enough (although aided by some poor cricket from Pakistan). I suspect the wickets they gifted Moeen were as a result of the pressure Anderson and Broad were able to exert. I thought England batted really well today. On pitches like this you have to keep the opposition in the field and win the battle of attrition. It's hot and we are bound to get some lose stuff tomorrow afternoon if we can bat well tomorrow morning. It's scandalous that Taylor was left out for so long even more so as he's exactly what England need in the middle order. We have an aggressive middle order and it's important that the players compliment each other. I think Bairstow has done well too. I think 6 is a good place for him. He's a bit too bottom handed but he's gritty and I think that, with the right support, he can become a good test match cricketer. His keeping is under rated too. Looking to the future, I would ask Root to open in South Africa. I know I'll be on my own here but I think he's ready for the challenge and his technique has tightened up since he last did it. He might end up only average 40 as opposed to 50 at the top of the order but we have options for the middle order. Ballance could come back into the side and he is capable of averaging 40 too. In my opinion, that's a better option than Root averaging 50 and Hayles averaging 20. I might be wrong but I just don't think Hayles is a test cricketer and there are no obvious other options. A top 5 of Cook, Root, Bell, Taylor and Ballance has 5 cricketers in positions they have all played throughout their career and with Baristow, Stokes and Moeen at 6-8 we'd have a nice balance. Personally I'm not convinced Hales is an international cricketer full-stop. England have a long history of getting massively carried away with a one-day player based on a single or a couple of dominant performances, I think that's the case with Hales. I just don't think he's quite up to it ultimately. It's a tricky one but I don't think I would put Root back up there; basically he's proved himself to be too good a player to open. He needs to be protected because he really is our engine room and right now it looks like he has a shot of being something very special indeed. I wouldn't mess with that for 1 series v South Africa. So I guess we roll the dice with Hales and cross our fingers. England have done very well in this match - Pakistan are clearly terrified of our seamers and their pressure really is what has kept us in the this series. Broad and Anderson are awesome and my goodness we will miss them when they retire which isn't that far away unfortunately. I think Bairstow has a golden opportunity to stake a claim to be our long term wicket-keeper batsman and that would be a major bonus for England. You can have Bairstow at 6, and some combination of Stokes/Ali/Rashid at 7 and 8. That lineup works as well with built in flexibility. On the rest I think Ballance has to re-prove himself before he gets another crack because he didn't look like a player down on form - he looked like a player who had been found out which is a more worrying situation. I'm also baffled that it has taken Taylor this long to get another go in the side but best of luck to him and hopefully he has really seized this opportunity. The problem remains who bats with Cook - everywhere else I think we have really good options.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2015 21:35:23 GMT
I'd ask Bell to open. His technique is good enough, but more importantly we won't miss the runs he isn't getting at number three.
|
|
Bridgeman
Alfie Biggs
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,549
|
Post by Bridgeman on Nov 2, 2015 22:14:41 GMT
Good first couple of days for England. The seamers were immense yesterday and the spinners did just enough (although aided by some poor cricket from Pakistan). I suspect the wickets they gifted Moeen were as a result of the pressure Anderson and Broad were able to exert. I thought England batted really well today. On pitches like this you have to keep the opposition in the field and win the battle of attrition. It's hot and we are bound to get some lose stuff tomorrow afternoon if we can bat well tomorrow morning. It's scandalous that Taylor was left out for so long even more so as he's exactly what England need in the middle order. We have an aggressive middle order and it's important that the players compliment each other. I think Bairstow has done well too. I think 6 is a good place for him. He's a bit too bottom handed but he's gritty and I think that, with the right support, he can become a good test match cricketer. His keeping is under rated too. Looking to the future, I would ask Root to open in South Africa. I know I'll be on my own here but I think he's ready for the challenge and his technique has tightened up since he last did it. He might end up only average 40 as opposed to 50 at the top of the order but we have options for the middle order. Ballance could come back into the side and he is capable of averaging 40 too. In my opinion, that's a better option than Root averaging 50 and Hayles averaging 20. I might be wrong but I just don't think Hayles is a test cricketer and there are no obvious other options. A top 5 of Cook, Root, Bell, Taylor and Ballance has 5 cricketers in positions they have all played throughout their career and with Baristow, Stokes and Moeen at 6-8 we'd have a nice balance. Yes, like the look of your 1-8, to be honest trying Moeen as an opener has been an awful decision. Why not put Root back as opener and get him prepared for South Africa would have seemed a sensible decision. An excellent start for England and Taylor has grabbed his opportunity well along with Bairstow. Lets have a steady start tomorrow and try and get 100/120 lead.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 10:43:44 GMT
This is turning against us rapidly here. We need Broad and Anderson to bowl shorter spells more often because otherwise the spinners are going to be milked all day.
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Nov 3, 2015 10:57:55 GMT
This is turning against us rapidly here. We need Broad and Anderson to bowl shorter spells more often because otherwise the spinners are going to be milked all day. This is clearly where we are missing quality spin bowling - if the boot was on the other foot I don't think Pakistan would have allowed given us such an easy ride. Still time to turn it around though - Rashid turned the 1st game on its head from nowhere.
Bell opening is an interesting suggestion - I think I could get behind that idea.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 15:28:17 GMT
Well the crazy runout opened a door and Anderson and Broad have nudged it further ajar, but I make Pakistan favourites to win the match and series from here. Their spinners made mincemeat of us this morning, and yet the pitch returned to a carpet when ours had a go. Any more than 200 in front and I think the game is gone.
|
|
|
Post by Nobbygas on Nov 3, 2015 15:41:10 GMT
I think James Tredwell is knashing his teeth somewhere. In fairness, the guy never let England down and he was a very good substitute for when Swann couldn't play. Moving Root to opener is a silly idea. He's No.1 in the World right now. Why mess with that?
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Nov 3, 2015 15:57:36 GMT
I think James Tredwell is knashing his teeth somewhere. In fairness, the guy never let England down and he was a very good substitute for when Swann couldn't play. Moving Root to opener is a silly idea. He's No.1 in the World right now. Why mess with that? Tredwell's 1st Class record isn't really that good though and he's getting on a bit so didn't fit the image of an England team in rebuild. Not to mention that he lost his place in a poor Kent side this summer and went out on loan so he wasn't exactly banging down the door for this tour party. He only played 2 Tests, for the second one in the West Indies last winter he failed to win us the game on a 5th day wicket against a very average lineup which is known to have a major weakness v spin; I think that combined with his relative age probably sealed his fate as a Test prospect. He was just seen a conservative option. Where I think he does have a grievance is as a one day player - he deserved more chances there than he got; best one day spinner in the country but doesn't have enough variation in the long format. The next cabs off the rank spin wise are Riley at Kent (who took Tredwell's place) and Lilley at Lancs but neither is really ready. Jack Leach at Somerset ended the season very well and could get himself in the frame with a good season. I don't really think we currently have anyone who would have made the difference in this series though really.
|
|
|
Post by Nobbygas on Nov 3, 2015 16:25:25 GMT
I bow to your superior knowledge of the players in the County system It just pains me to see Pakistan's fourth or fifth choice spinners turning it more than our best !
|
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Nov 3, 2015 16:32:56 GMT
I bow to your superior knowledge of the players in the County system It just pains me to see Pakistan's fourth or fifth choice spinners turning it more than our best ! This is true but in the summer you would expect the situation to be reversed and our 4th/5th choice seamers will be doing more damage than their front-line ones. I think the truth is that this series has come at a bad time for England and we've probably given it our best shot but Pakistan have been pretty much unbeatable in the UAE so losing to them across 3 hard fought tests would be no disgrace and we still have half a chance of getting out of it with a draw. In general though there is a big problem in cricket with away teams struggling to compete - something probably needs to be done about that in order to keep Test Cricket competitive.
|
|